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dbltree

07-05-2010, 11:53 AM

I don't know about Iowa, dbltree, but in Kansas, crabgrass is a warm season grass that does not germinate until the ground temperature is warm enough for nwsg to germinate also. Hence, my big problem. It puts out tons of seed, when the nwsg is drilled it incorporates the crabgrass also and it all germinates at dang near the same time. I don't know how much the crabgrass is going to hurt me but I want to minimize the damage it does.

Actually crabgrass is a tropical grass so it requires copious amounts of water to thrive and that's what your doing by irrigating.

If you read the beginning of this thread you'll also see two other important things...

We try to dormant seed NWSG in the winter time (the natural way that NWSG existed for thousands of years) and in that way we avoid disturbing the soil as you did with your drill.

Secondly Plateau or Panoramic are awesome pre-emergence herbicides that would save you an enormous amount of money over irrigating.

Paramount or Drive are great post emergence herbicides that will kill crabgrass and foxtail and are safe for most NWSG's.

Paramount Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld28H003.pdf)

Shut off the water and the crabgrass will struggle to survive, leave it on and it will thrive in the moist hot conditions...;)

chronic

07-05-2010, 06:36 PM

Yes dbltree, I have read the beginning of this thread and much more of it, however, as I stated in my original post, plenty of mistakes have been made before I ever found this forum and I am looking to go from where I am at to somewhere better. I thank you for your advice. I looked at that paramount label and it seems like a good possiblity for me, odd that it is not even listed in the list of approved herbicides for kansas crp.

dbltree

07-05-2010, 09:35 PM

Its also available as "Drive 75" and sold as a turf control product so you might find it under that label locally too.

Good luck with your NWSG and keep us posted on what you end up doing and how it responds...we all learn from each other here and you are in a very different area then most of us are used too....:)

letemgrow

07-06-2010, 06:30 PM

'Pete' variety of eastern gama I planted 3 years ago. Taken at eye level (6') and the seeds heads are easily 8 feet tall. I swear a jungle cat is going to come out at any moment. :D

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/100_1496.jpg

dbltree

07-07-2010, 02:43 PM

That stuff is awesome Phil! :way:

trev33

09-03-2010, 10:09 AM

dbltree

09-03-2010, 08:35 PM

dbltree,

I have 16ac. of NWSG that was planted this spring. It was sprayed with roundup and Panoramic before it was drilled. The only weed that emerged was waterhemp. How can I control that other than mowing all the time?

Trev

Usually the NWSG will take over the second year and you won't have to worry about it but I am curious about how many ounces of Panoramic you applied per acre?

roadking

09-04-2010, 09:54 PM

My frost seedings all look great but my CIR is innundated with foxtail. How do I get rid of it??

dbltree

09-05-2010, 08:05 PM

My frost seedings all look great but my CIR is innundated with foxtail. How do I get rid of it??

At this stage of the game it's probably not going to matter and you could just ride it out for the season but you can spray with Paramount or Drive 75 (same thing) and kill the foxtail without harming the switch.

Kinda pricey too so you'll have to decide if you want to mess with it or not. See the front page of this thread for mor info and look up both labels in the herbicide thread as well.

In a few weeks frost will kill the foxtail for the year and next year the switch will out compete the foxtail...;)

roadking

09-06-2010, 06:05 PM

At this stage of the game it's probably not going to matter and you could just ride it out for the season but you can spray with Paramount or Drive 75 (same thing) and kill the foxtail without harming the switch.

Kinda pricey too so you'll have to decide if you want to mess with it or not. See the front page of this thread for mor info and look up both labels in the herbicide thread as well.

In a few weeks frost will kill the foxtail for the year and next year the switch will out compete the foxtail...;)

I think I'll just let it go. Thanks for your help!!!

trev33

09-07-2010, 07:22 AM

Usually the NWSG will take over the second year and you won't have to worry about it but I am curious about how many ounces of Panoramic you applied per acre?

I applied 6oz. of Panoramic along with 2qt of Roundup. The waterhemp may of been sprouted and I didn't notice it when I sprayed.

dbltree

09-07-2010, 10:39 AM

I applied 6oz. of Panoramic along with 2qt of Roundup. The waterhemp may of been sprouted and I didn't notice it when I sprayed.

Ok...I usually apply 10-12 ounces of Plateau (Panoramic) so it could be that 6 ounces was not enough to control the WH.

Hopefully the NWSH will overpower the WH next year and you won't have to worry about it...;)

Nontypcl1

09-17-2010, 09:18 AM

I have 17acres going into cp23 and will be planted to a tall grass prairie with quite a few forbs mixed in. This area has been hayed for the past 5 years and I will only have time to spray with gly once in early oct. after the last cutting is taken. I wanted to get two kills on the cool season this fall but the ground is being leased through this season and the guy wants to take a 3rd cutting so getting 2 kills isn't an option this fall.

I was hoping on drilling it in november for a dormant seeding but I'm worried about not getting two good kills on the cool-seasons.

Would one kill be enough or should I wait till next spring so I can get it sprayed twice. I'm mostly concerned the forbs and switch not getting stratified by spring planting.

If there is enough fuel I thought about running a fire through after spring planting to try and scarify the seeds. Would this be enough to get most forbs and switch to germinate?

Any thoughts?

letemgrow

09-17-2010, 09:48 AM

Nontypcl1

09-17-2010, 10:41 AM

when should I spray in the spring if I plant this fall? Just after green up or should I wait till like mid April?

letemgrow

09-17-2010, 10:46 AM

when should I spray in the spring if I plant this fall? Just after green up or should I wait till like mid April?

I have found it depends on the year, but usually by mid-april, the nwsg's have not started growing yet while the fescue will be 6-8 inches tall.

dbltree

09-18-2010, 07:31 AM

Spray it this fall for certain...grasses will stay green for a long time yet, so hit hard with 2 quarts of gly ASAP and then plan on hitting it again in early April as Phil suggests.

Remember you can use Plateau on on NWSG plantings for residual control next spring but it's hard on switchgrass. I like to have them send the switch separately then I plant the fluffies and wildflower seed this winter, spray with Plateau in spring, then frost seed the switchgrass seed the following winter.

It's an option you might consider IF you want to use Plateau/Panoramic to control weeds (go back to the beginning of this thread for more info on that subject)

roadking

09-19-2010, 09:07 AM

I did plant 2 small plots of CIR this spring that turned out pretty good. It's almost as good as the stuff I frost seeded. The key is to get good weed control but if you spray in the spring it's a lot more hit and miss than if you spray in the fall & hit it again in the spring. If you can get to it I'd certainly suggest as dbltree said to do it this fall. Last fall, because of weather, I didn't get it sprayed until the first of Nov. and still got a really good kill except in a few areas. I did hit it again this sping after I frost seeded and it turnd out very good. Good luck.

Nontypcl1

09-19-2010, 10:15 AM

Thanks for the info fellas.:way: I think I"ll go ahead and spray this fall and drill it in this november then spray again in april. I'll have to look more into the plateau and decide what to do with the switch then.

dbltree

09-20-2010, 07:00 PM

We are in the final stages of entering into 10 and 15 year Conservation Reserve Program contracts here in September 2010 with all of us receiving acceptance letters on September 18th or later. Nearly all of us will have received that approval by agreeing to a CP-25 "Rare and Declining Habitat Restoration" seeding.

That seeding will vary somewhat by area and will usually require meeting with an NRCS technician and deciding on a Native Warm Season Grass and Wildflower mix.

That mix is most likely to be comprised of a mix something like this mix from Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/)

1 Sand dropseed 0.05
2 Rough dropseed 0.10
3 Sideoats grama 0.90
4 Big bluestem 1.50
5 Indiangrass 1.00
6 Canada wild rye 0.25
7 Little bluestem 0.70
8 Virginia wild rye 0.35
9 Switchgrass 0.40
Subtotal Grasses (PLS Lbs)
5.25 PLS Lbs

Forbs Common Name Ozs/Acre

1 Black-eyed Susan 0.50
2 Seedbox 0.10
3 Evening primrose 0.40
4 Rigid / Stiff goldenrod 0.50
5 Culver's root 0.10
6 Grayheaded coneflower 1.00
7 Sky blue aster 0.10
8 Sneezeweed 0.05
9 Wild bergamont 0.10
10 Partridge pea 1.50
11Tall bellflower 0.03
12 New England aster 0.06
13 Smooth blue aster 0.10
14 Purple prairie clover 0.30
15 IL bundle flower 1.50
Subtotal Forbes (PLS Ozs)
6.34 PLS Ozs

Iowa CRP Mix - PSF #CP25-02-IA
9 Grasses / 15 Wildflowers

Total CRP Mix (PLS Lbs p/Acre)

5.65 PLS Lbs Each landowners mix may vary and you will have some leeway to work on an acceptable mix with your NRCS tech and if you purchase from a source like John Osenbaugh he can custom mix almost anything you desire. He can also keep seeds separate which can also be advantageous for reasons I'll discuss later in this post.

Right now, even though it is getting later in the fall we still need to consider the single most important aspect of establishing NWSG plantings...preparation! It is imperative that we do all we can to kill and perennial sod forming grasses such as fescue and brome grass and there is no time like the present!

If the fields have been in crops then half the battle is already won but we'll get to that in a moment...

Killing perennial sod grass

At this point it may be too late to mow and allow for regrowth depending on where you live but in a perfect world we would prefer to mow, wait 2-3 weeks and spray the re-growth. As it is many of us will have little choice but to spray without mowing.

Spray using:
2 quarts of 41% glyphosate (Use AMS according to the label)
1-4 pints of 2-4D

Optional additions are:

1-2 ounces of Oust XP and one quart of crop oil

or 8-12 ounces of Plateau/Panoramic

If mowing was not possible before spraying, wait 2-3 weeks after spraying and mow the dead grasses to speed decomposition and make seeding easier.Land currently in corn or soybeans

In all but rare cases the work is already done but you do have the option of applying 8-12 ounces of Plateau/Panoramic in the fall.

Shred corn stalks to allow time for decomposition and also allow for ease of seeding later

Land currently in alfalfa or clovers

Both alfalfa and clover are very difficult to kill using glyphosate alone and are both are also tolerant of post emergence applications of Plateau so it's important to kill them this fall. Both can suffocate a new NWSG seeding and make control nearly impossible with out also killing the native forbs in the planting.

Spray using:
2 quarts of 41% glyphosate (Use AMS according to the label)
2 quarts of 2-4D

Optional additions are:

1-2 ounces of Oust XP and one quart of crop oil

or 8-12 ounces of Plateau/Panoramic (for residual control into the following spring)

It is unlikely that killed legumes will need to be mowed before seeding

There may be of course other scenarios but these would be the most commonly found inland going into CRP.

NWSG's like Big and Little Bluestem, Indiangrass and Sideoats grama are fully type seeds that do not require stratification however the switchgrass and wildflower seeds in these mixes may exhibit a high degree of dormancy. So we have options...one for almost any situation and landowner.

Winter or dormant seeding is the least expensive, most efficient and practical method and can be done with a drill or via broadcasting seeds. If you have access to a tractor and can locate a drill equipped to plant fluffy seeds I would urge you to do so.

Drills are accurate and fast but be sure it is a drill equipped to handle fluffy seeds and the Truax rangeland drills are a good example:

http://www.truaxcomp.com/images/rwd-f.jpg

Truax drill (http://www.truaxcomp.com/grassdrill.html)

Drills such as these have both fluffy seed boxes and small seed boxes for sowing small seeds such as switch and wildflower seeds and John Osenbaugh can keep the appropriate seeds separate to accommodate planting in a drill such as the Truax.

There is no need to till the soil and unless there is heavy trash a no-till drill is really not needed. All that is required when dormant seeding is to drop the seed on the soil so this allows us to seed without tilling and even seed on frozen soils. Winter seeding gives us the advantage of using equipment when no one else is and utilizing our free time that we often have little of in the spring.

Native grasses and native wildflowers are sown naturally in the wild this way being dropped in the fall, being moved against the soil by winter snow and rain as well as freezing and thawing action. The seeds then germinate in very late spring without ever having been "planted" and in fact the most common reason for a NWSG planting failure is planting seed to deep.

If you have an ATV you might also consider the Truax seed slinger or on small acreages a shoulder carried slinger:

http://www.truaxcomp.com/images/slinger_atv.jpg

I can tell you however that the shoulder slinger is heavy and cumbersome if planting a large area.

http://www.truaxcomp.com/images/slinger-tall.jpg

Truax Seed Slinger (http://www.truaxcomp.com/seed-slinger.html)

We can dormant seed anytime from late November to late March as long as soils are either dry or frozen so that gives us plenty of time to get the seeding done as schedule permit. If you plan on using Plateau at rates above 4 ounces per acre you may wish to leave out any switchgrass seed and broadcast it into the stand the following winter because Plateau can cause serious injury to switch seedlings...yet another reason to ask your seed source to send it packaged separately.

You can plant a NWSG all the way into the first part of June but as mentioned some of you native wildflowers and switchgrass may not germinate until the following spring, Spring is also notorious for wet weather and cause for headaches getting stuck on wet areas, causing soil compaction or as has happened in Iowa the past few years...not getting it planted at all.

If you are new to NWSG it is imperative that you understand that these seeds are nothing like common crop seeds and do not get "planted" at all. If a drill is used or any tillage is done then great care should be taken to not plant these seeds over an 1/8" deep. Using a properly set rangeland drill or planting on frozen soils insures that planting too deep will not be a problem.

In early April spray 6-12 ounces of Plateau or Panoramic per acre...less if clean crop ground, more if it was sod containing fescue. On killed sod adding a quart of glyphosate may also be needed.

Plateau will keep you NWSG planting clean and negate the need for constant mowing all summer....this is some of mine from a past seeding where plateau was used on dormant seeded NWSG.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/PlateauTreatedNWSG1.jpg

If Plateau is not used, expect to mow roughly 6 times the first summer, always just above the new seedlings and never mowing close to the ground!! Raise the mower up to just clip the tops off and allow sunlight in at 8-14" above the ground.

Unfortunately many of you will find that your NRCS tech's are totally inexperienced at planting NWSG, they only know what they have been told and have zero experience at actually planting and growing them. I can tell you from experience the best thing you can do is discuss only the actual seeding mix and when you can submit a bill for seed, herbicide, labor, fertilizer etc.

Do not tell them when or how you plan to plant, in fact don't tell them anything at all because in most cases you'll regret doing so. During the summer following planting they may stop by and make sure you did indeed actually plant your NWSG but beyond that don't make your business their business. They are all great, goodhearted people but the lions share of them simply have no working knowledge of this subject.

I'll be planting ground going into CRP with an approved CP-25 NWSG mix myself...so follow along and please share updates of your own plantings this coming year.... :way:

2-4D label (http://www.southernag.com/docs/labels_msds/2_4-D.pdf) Fall allied only

Plateau Herbicide Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld2LP012.pdf) Fall or spring applied

Oust XP (http://www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardlists/labels/6840-01-356-8891_label.pdf) Fall applied only

Escort XP (http://www2.dupont.com/Production_Agriculture/en_US/label_msds_info/labels/H65699.pdf) Fall applied only.

ajadams

09-20-2010, 09:17 PM

dbltree

10-03-2010, 01:05 PM

Two years ago I put in 13 acres and just used the mowing method and it was a bit of work to keep up with all the rain. Its coming along good but there are a few poor spots. Next year I get to put in close to 150 acres minus food plot areas and I am definitely going to use plateau. That would be too much for me to try to mow if we have another wet year. I can't wait to finally have the farm back in crp with more ground to "play" with. Hopefully have enough pheasants out there by the time my son is old enough to hunt.

That's awesome AJ but....I'm glad I don't have your seed bill! :eek: :D

I try to refrain from shooting deer in the food plots themselves although there exceptions of course and NWSG surrounding feeding areas can be a great spot to create a travel corridor and waylay deer en-route to feeding or bedding areas. Deer of course make their own runways through the tall native grass but you can easily mow a path and create a runway past a blind or stand.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/DeerusingNWSG.jpg

I mowed a path through some Big Bluestem

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/BuckinNWSG.jpg

and it's like Grand Central Station now...and obviously a great place for a trail cam as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/DeerusingNWSGfunnel.jpg

You can also just drive an ATV back and forth a couple times or even a tractor and deer will quickly adapt to following the easy path, still feeling secure with the screening effect of the native grasses.

Pick off a doe now and then or a rutting buck as he travels to and from doe bedding/feeding areas with out disturbing other deer. Beware however that wounded deer can be extremely difficult to locate in the NWSG so...shoot well... :way:

dbltree

10-11-2010, 11:30 AM

I have attended this field day in years and there is a wealth of knowledge available in the many test plots there. They also have had various species/variety samples many of which have been there for over 20 years...or have vanished or been taken over by other more dominant species/varieties.

Well worth the trip if one has the time...:way:

Many of the bids in the 39<sup>th</sup> Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) sign-up included putting native grasses or native pollinator habitat on a portion of the CRP acres. To help landowners learn more about getting good establishment of the native grasses, a field day has been set for Tuesday, October 12 at 6:00 p.m. at the ISU Southeast Iowa Research and Demonstration Farm near Crawfordsville.

Native grasses are slower to establish than many of the cool season forages farmers normally use for haying and grazing. The seed is also fluffier and may require some different seeding techniques. With proper planning, seeding, and weed control, excellent stands can be established in the first year.

Field day topics will include species selection, seeding mixes, seeding methods, weed control and maximizing wildlife benefits. Special focus will be on establishing native grasses on existing CRP where presently there is brome grass cover. Participants will also have the chance to compare native grass stands that were done as a dormant seeding in the late fall, an early spring frost seeding, and a late spring seeding.

To get to the Southeast Iowa Research and Demonstration Farm, go 1¾ miles south of Crawfordsville on Hwy 218, then 2 miles east on G-62, then ¾ mile north on the Louisa – Washington Rd. Watch for signs.
The field day is sponsored by Iowa State University Extension, Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS), Farm Service Agency (FSA), and the Iowa Department of Natural Resources (DNR). For more information, call 319-337-2145.

Daver

10-11-2010, 11:56 AM

Paul - that sounds real interesting, but if it begins at 6:00P then there can't be much outside because of darkness, can there? Is this indoors or outdoors or a combo? I think I am going to try to get there either way.

IQDM

10-19-2010, 08:09 PM

ajadams

10-19-2010, 10:27 PM

Next year I am putting in 150 acres of cp25. So far this is my plan. It is going into bean stubble but the ground is pretty rough so we want to level it off first.
First I was going to field cultivate the whole farm. Followed by cultipacking and finally drilling in my nwsg's. I am planning on using herbicide, like panoramic 2sl. Should I apply that a few days after I seed or wait till stuff greens up a bit? Also, I plan on keeping some of the non tolerant forbes out of the mix till the following winter and just broadcast them late winter/early spring. Good plan or not? I got an easy 20 grand going into this and kind of need to get it right the first time (no reimbursement for replant). Thanks for the help. AJ

dbltree

10-20-2010, 07:16 PM

Paul, what do you recommend for planting rates on big blue and also on little blue? I looked back on the first couple pages of this thread and didnt find much for planting rates. also, does anyone have a "cheap source" for prairie cordgrass?

Here are some planting rates alone or in a mix and John Osenbaugh does carry PCG seed.

Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms (http://www.prairieseedfarms.com/index.html)

Click on the price list...:way:

NWSG seed mix example

Switchgrass 1-2. lb./acre 4-6 ft. tall
Big bluestem 1-4 lb./acre 4-6 ft. tall
Indiangrass 1-4 lb./acre 3-6 ft. tall
Canada wildrye 0-2 lb./acre 3-4 ft. tall
Little bluestem 2-4 lb./acre 2-4 ft. tall
Side-oats grama 1-3 lb./acre 2-3 ft. tall

Planing rates alone (so in any combination adjust rates accordingly)

Seeding rate for species planted alone
Big bluestem

165,000 seeds per pound
7 pounds of pure live seed per acre

Switchgrass

389,000 seeds per pound
6 pounds of pure live seed per acre

Indiangrass

175,000 seeds per pound
7 pounds of pure live seed per acre

Little Bluestem

7 to 12 pounds of pure live seed per acre

John could further advise you on optimum planting rates in Iowa but those are suggested to rates.

Next year I am putting in 150 acres of cp25. So far this is my plan. It is going into bean stubble but the ground is pretty rough so we want to level it off first.

First I was going to field cultivate the whole farm. Followed by cultipacking and finally drilling in my nwsg's. I am planning on using herbicide, like panoramic 2sl.

Should I apply that a few days after I seed or wait till stuff greens up a bit?

Also, I plan on keeping some of the non tolerant forbes out of the mix till the following winter and just broadcast them late winter/early spring. Good plan or not?

I got an easy 20 grand going into this and kind of need to get it right the first time (no reimbursement for replant). Thanks for the help. AJ

I would spray the Panoramic right after planting AJ, for best results and I will be doing the same thing with non-tolerant switch and forbs so yes, dormant seed them the following year and it will work great!

20 grand??...:eek:...:D

IQDM

10-21-2010, 05:28 AM

awesome! thanks!

dbltree

10-26-2010, 07:35 AM

I attended the SE Iowa NWSG Field Day a while back and looked over the NWSG test plots planted each year 2001-2004. Plots are comprised of (6) 30X60 plots, each planted at different times, treated with or with out herbicide, tilled or un-tilled etc.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0094.jpg

A mix of NWSG and forbs was used each year but different seed sources where used and that appeared to cause some variance long term in success but the sources were not revealed.

The plots in each case had been in either corn or soybeans and because they were so small the seed was always broadcast literally by hand. The seed was weighed out and tossed into the wind to allow the seed to be broadcast over the 30X60 area.

In 2002 the test area had been in soybeans so the front 3 plots were disced and the back 3 were not. On 11-25-02 one plot each (disced/not disced) was dormant seeded, on 3-13-03, the second two plots were dormant seeded and on 6-03-03 the second two plots were tilled and broadcast seeded and then cultipacked.

On May 13th 4 ounces of Plateau was applied to the North 1/2 of each plot

Now....7 years later I stepped into the center of the 6 plots and took a pic....it was impossible to tell one planting method from another!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0095.jpg

Standing on the edge looking in you can see it is one solid stand of Big Bluestem and Indiangrass with almost no forbs existing simply because the tall grasses have out competed them.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0093.jpg

They did very similar tests with Cave In Rock switchgrass only they used 2 quarts of atrazine on 1/2 the plots and sowed at 5#'s per acre...again all broadcast seed. The best plots appeared to be the late February early March dormant seedings but again there were different seed sources that added an element of variance from year to year.

This is the 2003 March sown CIR switchgrass today...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0092.jpg

In short all methods produced viable stands and long term use of herbicide did not produce a better stand, it just allowed the stand to be established sooner.

For those converting crop land to a CRP-CP-25 NWSG planting you can use whatever method might work best for you but one distinct advantage of dormant seeding is that the landowner will not have to fight wet spring weather. Seed can be broadcast or drilled with equipment equipped to handle fluffy seeds on frozen soils anytime from late November thru late March.

Soybean stubble is ideal and nothing more need be done, corn stubble can be planted as is or stubble shredded/chopped simply to make drilling or broadcasting a little easier but it will have no effect on the success of the stand either way.

In regards to Plateau/Panoramic I would use 8 ounces per acre on heavy soils for best results but if you choose to mow, do so up to 6 times the first summer clipping at 6-12" height. :way:

Scott

10-26-2010, 07:13 PM

Osenbaugh recommended 10 pounds per acre of CIR for deer. Being this will be my first time planting CIR this winter, can you put the seed on to heavy? Will it out compete itself and stunt its own growth?

IQDM

10-26-2010, 08:46 PM

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00204.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00094.jpg
Is this PCG?

iowaqdm

10-27-2010, 06:51 PM

Hey Dbltree,
What brand was that native grass hand broadcast seeder you use?

Never mind I found it. Truax right. Let me know if that is still your favorate.

dbltree

10-28-2010, 05:48 AM

Is this PCG?

If it is...it looks different then mine? My PCG is long "ropey" seed heads that don't spread apart like in that pic? I'll try and take some more pics of mine.

Hey Dbltree,
What brand was that native grass hand broadcast seeder you use?

Never mind I found it. Truax right. Let me know if that is still your favorite.

Yes...Truax is the only fluffy seeder that I am aware and although heavy and cumbersome it works very well! :way:

Ridgerunner

11-11-2010, 01:31 PM

dbltree

11-11-2010, 07:10 PM

I plan to put in approx 24 acres of CP2 next spring. Consisting of switch, BB, IG & Flowers The land is currently in corn. I have had the stalks baled and removed and plan to rent a truax drill from fish and wildlife. My question is could I use oust this fall yet or prior to planting next spring. Atrazine is out because of its damage to the flowers and journey will damage the switch. Do I have any other herbicide program options in my case.

Plateau/Panoramic is the best bet for nixed NWSG plantings and I have John Osenbaugh package the switch and non-tolerant forbs separately and then frost seen them the following winter.

Check the first page of this thread for more detailed info on herbicides...:way:

dbltree

11-12-2010, 07:16 AM

Commonly NWSG is planted on brome or fescue sod here in Iowa but when there are CRP sign ups then usually the seedings are done on crop lands. In those cases half the battle is already won because there is no sod to kill (one of the MOST important steps in preparing for NWSG plantings), soybean stubble is of course ideal because the soil surface is clean and seed can be broadcast or drilled.

Corn stubble is a close second because even though it looks "trashy" there is plenty of soil surface exposed and perennial sod grasses non-existent.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20Seeding%20Prep/Stalks1.jpg

I'll be using a Truax no-till drill to dormant seed a NWSG mix in early December, although a drill is certainly not necessary. So I shredded part of the field and left the other part to share the difference if any at a later date. In the end other then for ease of running equipment there is usually no difference in the stand itself.

The shredded stalks look like this right now...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20Seeding%20Prep/Stalks2.jpg

Something less often found when preparing for a NWSG planting is having to kill alfalfa or clover but in my case I had a 3 acre field of alfalfa that I had to kill. Alfalfa and clover are difficult to kill with glyphosate only and usually 2-4D is required.

I sprayed this three acre field with 6 quarts of 41% glyphosate and one gallon of 2-4D and it nuked everything!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20Seeding%20Prep/Killedalfalfa.jpg

I hated to have to destroy this beautiful alfalfa stand so i waited until early November 1st to spray it because the weather was still warm yet it 100% killed the field.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20Seeding%20Prep/Sprayedalfalfa.jpg

Preparation is the most important element in establishing a new stand of NWSG but as I have shared previously no tillage is necessary or advisable unless one has extremely rough field conditions. Not a single of square foot have I ever tilled for NWSG and yet they are all beautiful NWSG stands today.

In my case I'll be using Panoramic (Plateau) herbicide in the spring at 8 ounces per acre and this is one of the least expensive sources I know of...

Panoramic Herbicide source (http://naturchemstore.net/detail.cfm?ID=99&Desc=Panoramic)

On heavy soils Panoramic will cause minimal harm to switchgrass seedlings at 4 ounces per acre but at higher rates (which of course provide more effective weed control) this product can kill switch and many non-tolerant forbs. I had John Osenbaugh of Prairie Seed Farms keep any non-tolerant seeds separate and I will frost seed those the winter following, simple and easy method of getting around the "which herbicide" to use problem.

One can choose to simply clip weeds as needed and use no herbicides at all but it will take 2-3 years to establish the stand and the expense of mowing can exceed that of the herbicide which in this case will run around $16 an acre.

Dormant seeding in early December before heavy snows arrive is an extremely effective and low cost method of establishing native grasses and you can broadcast or drill seeds with equipment built for sowing fluffy seeds or in small fields simply scatter the seeds to the wind....easy as pie and a few years later it will be impossible to determine planting methods.

Drilling does have one advantage in that the seedlings can be "rowed" the following spring but remember the drill should not actually "plant" seeds as they should be no deeper then on top or 1/8" deep. A drill can be run across frozen soils and seeds simply placed on top and the no-till coulters will slice through stubble to insure seed/soil contact.

If you have a new CRP contract and CP-25 seeding to put in hopefully this information will give you some low cost yet effective establishment ideas.... ;)

Ridgerunner

11-12-2010, 07:30 AM

Thanks DBLTREE that's very helpful info.

Nontypcl1

11-12-2010, 09:27 AM

dbltree

11-13-2010, 08:19 AM

Dbltree,

I believe I've heard you say that you prefer to frost seed over dormant seeding because the seed isn't left to the mercy of the mother nature as long. I was just wondering why this time around you've decided to dormant seed as opposed to frost seeding?

I also have some ground going into crp, CP23 actually. After being told is would be accepted, then not accepted, and now again told it is accepted. (no bull this time:)) I am back to waiting for my plan to be finished so I can get started. I was told there are about 70 general contracts ahead of mine so hopefully they'll have it done in time for me to frost seed. Of course they really want it spring seeded but what they don't know won't hurt them;)

Over time...after I have witnessed more NWSG stands being established via early winter dormant seedings I have come to the realization that there is little difference in the end result especially for NWSG fluffy seed types.

As they say...probably 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other...:D

Early winter usually allows for easier access with a tractor and fluffy seed drill before heavy snows cause problems so we decided on that time frame this year.

If I was sowing only switchgrass I probably would choose late January/early February but the NWSG mix does very well dormant seeded in early December without all the worries about wet spring weather to contend with.

My NRCS tech is great and knows full well how successful dormant seedings are and readily approves of them....:way:

dbltree

11-22-2010, 07:19 PM

I always have to smile when I hear the "experts" say that switchgrass is too thick for wildlife to use and for that reason we ought to plant "mixed" NWSG like Indiangrass and Big Bluestem. Now I don't have a thing against mixed NWSG grasses and in fact have acres of them but the reasons and motives they are promoted over switch just don't make sense.

These photos are stands of primarily Indiangrass with some Big Bluestem and by golly folks....they are thicker then hair on a dogs back!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0019.jpg

I guess none of those folks ever stumbled around in a thick robust stand of NWSG

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0017.jpg

or they couldn't possibly make a statement that these grasses were not as thick as switchgrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0016.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0015.jpg

In this photo there is actually switch in the foreground although hard to see because I had a telephoto lens on. The Indiangrass towers over the switchgrass and is just as thick or thicker. When winter snows come however the switch will out shine the other tall natives and bounce back when they do not.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0018.jpg

I caught this buck sneaking through the Big Bluestem and you can see why they love the safety of the tall native grass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Deer%20in%20NWSG/BuckinBB.jpg

Only with a zoom lens can I "see" though the grass and get a better look at him

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Deer%20in%20NWSG/B1.jpg

Large fields of NWSG can be extremely valuable in holding mature whitetails on your property but all NWSG's often do not "mix" well long term and one species will eventually dominate the others. Usually it's Indiangrass in my area and IG is the first to go down when rough weather hits and for that reason I maintain separate stands of pure switch and stands of mixed NWSG. This allows me to have diversity yet realistically maintain several species of native grasses on my farms long term and provide year around cover and screening for whitetails and wildlife in general.... ;)

Nontypcl1

11-23-2010, 10:42 AM

I always have to smile when I hear the "experts" say that switchgrass is too thick for wildlife

Ya, I always like to argue that point with the NRCS guy in my area. I know him from school and like to give him a hard time anyways. Even still I still have a hard time convincing him that switch is good wildlife habitat for more than deer.

Oh well, He doesn't want to add switch to my CP-23 planting but somehow I imagine it will get in there anyways;)

dbltree

12-13-2010, 06:29 AM

December 13th, 2010

I was able to get my CP-25 NWSG mix dormant seeded on the ground I enrolled in the 2010 Conservation reserve program using a Truax no-till drill equipped to sow the fluffy seeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0088.jpg

The native grass seeds won't flow through typical drills or broadcasters

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0078.jpg

The Truax drill and broadcasters are equipped with special augers and fingers to move the fluffy seeds and pull them down into the seed tubes.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0077.jpg

This drill has three seed boxes...one for small seeds like switchgrass, clover and alfalfa, one for fluffy seeds and one for larger seeds like soybeans and peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0074.jpg

No-till coulters help cut through trash and allow coulters to drop seed on the soil surface

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0073.jpg

Soybean stubble is ideal to dormant seed NWSG because there is almost no surface trash at all but I also used this drill to sow into killed sod, killed alfalfa sod and cornstalks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0075.jpg

Press wheels follow the seed openers to further press seeds against the soil

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0076.jpg

These are the sprocket settings I used to put on roughly 5 1/2 #'s of fluffy seed mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0081.jpg

This is the large seed box

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0085.jpg

and the tiny seed box

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0079.jpg

Easy to set here by "#'s per acre" to sow switchgrass seed for instance

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0082.jpg

This drill requires hydraulic outlets on the tractor, the back transport wheels can be raised and left up during planting.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0086.jpg

A 40-60 HP tractor will do the trick

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0072.jpg

Broadcasting will work equally well but our County Conservation Board offers the Truax drill for $5 an acre so we chose that route for this seeding

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG%20No-till%20Drill/IMG_0069.jpg

There are other drills that will sow fluffy seeds but most drills are no equipped to sow fluffy seeds so be sure to find out for certain before renting or borrowing a drill to sow NWSG seeds. Switchgrass seed is free flowing and easily broadcast with almost any seeder or drill but Big Bluestem, Indiangrass and Little Bluestem are quite another story.

I still have additional acres to seed that I enrolled in Wetland Restoration through the Continuous CRP but some small dikes need to be put in first. I'll probably frost seed that in mid winter if I can get the dozing done by then.... ;)

letemgrow

12-13-2010, 07:12 AM

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/IMG00204.jpg
Is this PCG?

Sure looks like it to me, some I have seen have the seedheads more spread out like that.

goatman

12-13-2010, 08:20 PM

Gosh Paul you have a heater body suit for planting today? Are the settings on that Truax run pretty true? Looking good.

dbltree

12-14-2010, 07:35 AM

Are the settings on that Truax run pretty true?

yep...pretty darn accurate :)

December 14th, 2010

The NWSG is still standing pretty well at my place...we have had snow but not heavy wet snow as of yet.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0012.jpg

Be pretty easy to kill one by making a path or track through it such as where I have driven the tractor through mine.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0026.jpg

Can you see deer in the tall natives? How many deer do you see here? (pics compliments of nannyslayer)

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/nannyslayer/Trail%20cam/ScrapePics103.jpg

and one second later

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee299/nannyslayer/Trail%20cam/ScrapePics104.jpg

Are tall grasses really any good? Do bucks use them? A good friend of mine was shotgun hunting the other day and walked across a grassy field of only knee high grasses. Something caught his eye and he noticed an "antler" and being only 30 yards away he walked up on a bedded buck and killed him as he jumped from the bed.

Had that buck been in tall native grass...he wouldn't have walked through it and would never have seen the buck if he had. NWSG isn't the ultimate cover in the winter time but until heavy snows hit it's a great hiding place for mature whitetails....:way:

IQDM

12-14-2010, 10:39 AM

NWSG isn't the ultimate cover in the winter time but until heavy snows hit it's a great hiding place for mature whitetails....:way:

In your opinion what is the best "winter" cover? (cedars, norway spruce, hinge cut timber, natives surrounded by pines, or a combo of some sort?)
:confused:

dbltree

12-14-2010, 08:20 PM

In your opinion what is the best "winter" cover? (cedars, norway spruce, hinge cut timber, natives surrounded by pines, or a combo of some sort?)
:confused:

The ultimate IMO is red cedars intermixed with shrubby cover and grassy areas....those areas are polluted with deer compared to any other types of cover.

letemgrow

12-15-2010, 07:18 AM

The ultimate IMO is red cedars intermixed with shrubby cover and grassy areas....those areas are polluted with deer compared to any other types of cover.

That is my ideal winter mix too!! You have that on a south facing slope with some winter food sources close by and shooting your way out is the only option. :way:

Ridgerunner

12-15-2010, 03:06 PM

Daver

12-15-2010, 03:57 PM

I plan to seed 23 acres of NWSG next spring as part of a CRP planting. I have been looking around trying to find a truax no till drill for rent, but I have had no luck. I live in Southwest Wisconsin, if anyone has any leads for me in that area I would appreciate it.

Have you tried the local Pheasants Forever chapter?? Other than that I would think of county conservation organizations or maybe talk to a local seed dealer that might have one or more likely know of someone. Good luck.

I'd let you use mine 'cept I don't have one! :)

goatman

01-27-2011, 08:51 PM

Tried out a Truax seed slinger yesterday. I had a 4 acre patch to do in big bluestem. It did do a good job on getting that fluffy grass out. Glad I had snow on to see the coverage. The spread wasn't as far as a slick seed but did do the job.Also there is no settings on the fluffy stuff. Your ground speed determines your rate per acre. I did 6mph and was just alittle over 8lbs./acre. I did try a little switchgrass through it. I will be keeping my Herd seeder for that stuff and any clover.

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=89&pictureid=5435
And this is the 4 acres that got broadcast.
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=89&pictureid=5436
This is what 8lbs./acre of big bluestem broadcast on the snow.
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=89&pictureid=5437
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=89pictureid=5437

dbltree

01-28-2011, 09:27 AM

Very nice! Thanks so much for posting the pics and great information! :way:

Scott

01-28-2011, 01:26 PM

dbltree

01-28-2011, 02:25 PM

Does anyone think there is a difference in the quality of the stand of grass you will get in using a broadcaster versus a drill? I am still a little on the fence on what I am going to use to plant mine in a few weeks here. My only concern with the broadcaster is getting good coverage along the edges of the timber.

I have seeded both ways and you can't see a lick of difference in either one, a drill is more accurate with seed coverage but the end result is usually always the same...;)

letemgrow

01-30-2011, 01:30 PM

Does anyone think there is a difference in the quality of the stand of grass you will get in using a broadcaster versus a drill? I am still a little on the fence on what I am going to use to plant mine in a few weeks here. My only concern with the broadcaster is getting good coverage along the edges of the timber.

There MAY be a difference in the first year or two, but by year 3-4, one would not know which was planted with either method. I prefer broadcasting and have great stands from doing so.

SWBUCKHNTR

02-21-2011, 09:45 PM

Daver

02-22-2011, 08:30 AM

I have a quick question for you guys. I took possession of a farm in october and didnt get a chance to burn down an area with round-up. It was hayed in september last year so it is pretty short yet. It is 2 acres and I am wanting to put in a mix of bb and lb maybe a little indian grass mixed in. If I frost seed this week yet and then hit the field with with round-up early spring before the nwsg sprouts will this be worth my time or should I just wait and do it right next fall?

It can be done the way you said, it is not optimal, but it is viable. I have done it this way with switchgrass.

dbltree

02-22-2011, 06:42 PM

As Daver mentioned it can be done but if you fail to get a good kill on the cool season grasses they will come back to haunt you. If you add Plateau to the glyphosate it won't be a problem....check the first page of this thread for more herbicide options...;)

letemgrow

02-24-2011, 07:21 PM

I have a quick question for you guys. I took possession of a farm in october and didnt get a chance to burn down an area with round-up. It was hayed in september last year so it is pretty short yet. It is 2 acres and I am wanting to put in a mix of bb and lb maybe a little indian grass mixed in. If I frost seed this week yet and then hit the field with with round-up early spring before the nwsg sprouts will this be worth my time or should I just wait and do it right next fall?

You can do it that way, I would also go back this following fall and hit the area again with roundup after the bb and lb goes dormant to get a really good kill on the fescue. I prefer a warmup in early November....that is THE best time to kill fescue at least for my area on the IA/MO line. :way:

dbltree

02-24-2011, 07:23 PM

February 24th, 2011

The NWSG has stood up pretty well this winter despite some 18-20" snow fall's and high winds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0012-1.jpg

This is the perfect time of year to dormant/frost seed any native grass seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0006-Copy.jpg

Best to not seed on more then a few inches of snow however

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0010.jpg

Broadcast or drill onto frozen soil in early morning if possible

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0006.jpg

Beds are everywhere however they chose the conifers and brush when the snow was deep

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0013-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_0014-1.jpg

Makes shed hunting like looking for a needle in a haystack but I did find this one only feet from the edge of the tallgrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Shed4.jpg

If you dormant seed this winter, spray with 1-2 quarts of glyphosate and and 2-4 quarts of simazine or atrazine by late April on switchgrass and big bluestem or use Plateau/Panoramic on mixes that don't include switchgrass. On established natives with some cool season grasses that need to be cleaned up use 1 quart of gly and 1-2 ounces of Oust XP by early to mid April to clean up the stand.

gahartman

03-19-2011, 05:51 PM

Going to be doing my first CRP project this year if approved. I am planning on doing a CP2 combination of Lil Blue, Big Blue, Switch, alfalfa and either Indian Grass or Western Wheat grass. We will also be putting in some pollinator habitat(in hopes of qualifying) which will be 25% grass(combination of green needlegrass, western wheat, and canada wildrye) and 75% pollinator flower/forbs. Will be looking to improve pheasant and deer habitat equally. I have a couple of questions in regard to the above. First do you guys think this is a good combination from your experience? Secondly 60 acres of this will be put in on intermediate grass that we will try to kill this fall and again in the spring. The other 20 acres will go into wheat stubble. My question is should RUP in fall and spring be okay, or should we use some plateau in the spring. I don’t think the weeds will be to bad so could you do 4 of plateau so you do not harm the switch or do we need a higher concentration. I am planning on putting this in late nov/early december with a drill. Could seed the switch the following winter if high amounts plateau required. Any thoughts would be great. Thanks in advance.

Greg<O:p

dbltree

03-19-2011, 05:57 PM

If you get a good kill on the CSG you will probably do just fine with 4 ounces of Plateau Greg. Should work very well in that regard but I would be cautious of adding much alfalfa....;)

gahartman

03-19-2011, 06:09 PM

\ I would be cautious of adding much alfalfa....;)

Is that becuase you would be worried about it out competing the NWSG. What would you put in its place. What would your top 5 combination be.

dbltree

03-19-2011, 07:00 PM

Is that becuase you would be worried about it out competing the NWSG. What would you put in its place. What would your top 5 combination be.

IMO adding alfalfa would be a waste of seed $'s because there is no way it can compete with tall NWSG. In the end only 2 species at best will survive and usually it's Indiangrass and Big Blue but the rules will force you to plant them all anyway.

It may be different in your area but here is an example of the minimum they require here for a CP-2

Grass: .17lb Rough dropseed, .09lb June grass .4lb Switchgrass, .4lb Canada Wildrye, 2.5lb Big bluestem, 2.25lb Indiangrass, .01 Prairie dropseed Forbs: Black-eyed Susan .9oz, Culvers root .23oz, Grayheaded coneflower .6oz, Alsike Clover 4oz.

Over time not one of the other species will survive but we have to add them

this is a Plateau tolerant mix

Grass: 3lb Indiangrass, 2lb Big bluestem, .5lb Sideoats grama, 2lb Little Bluestem
Forbs: Black-eyed Susan 1oz, Grayheaded coneflower 3oz, Illinois bundleflower 4oz, Sweet black-eyed susan 1.5oz, White Prairie clover 1oz, Prairie Coneflower 1oz,Purple prairie clover 4oz ,

If I had to pick 5 species for my area it would be the big 3 along with Little Blue and Side oats grama but even then in 4-5 years only 2-3 of the tall grasses will remain...;)

spltbrow

03-19-2011, 09:46 PM

I have a property that i just purchased and it has 10 acres of crp that has been planted to switchgrass. The switchgrass is very patchy, thick in some spots and very weedy in other spots. I talked with the nrcs and they said a burn should help it come back. Is this true? Should i burn it all and then litghtly disc and overseed or just burn? Looking for suggestions as i would like to realy thicken it up.

letemgrow

03-20-2011, 07:56 AM

letemgrow

03-20-2011, 08:01 AM

If I had to pick 5 species for my area it would be the big 3 along with Little Blue and Side oats grama but even then in 4-5 years only 2-3 of the tall grasses will remain...;)

Some good choices for short grass prairie are side oats, little bluestem and prairie dropseed.

spltbrow

03-20-2011, 10:33 AM

[QUOTE=letemgrow;411:p
I guess i should be a little more spacific when i say patchy spots. The pacthy spots are rather large, maybe up to a 1/2 acre in size that seems to be overun with weeds. Not sure if much switch is left in those spots. http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=834 Will the larger areas fill back in with switch.http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=836 http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=835

letemgrow

03-20-2011, 11:08 AM

I would say burn it this spring, see what pops up this year and then you can seed back in if need be next year...those "weeds" may not be all that bad to start with as they could be types deer browse heavily in the safety of the switch grass that is there.

dbltree

03-20-2011, 07:01 PM

Just remember to burn late in the spring (late April into mid May) to set back cool seasons and encourage the switch. If you wanted to you could use 1-2 ounces of Oust XP right after burning to keep down foxtail and other weeds.

I suspect the thin areas are failed areas that don't have any switch present but as Phil mentions...only one way to find out. Burn or burn and spray will yield some answers :way:

spltbrow

03-20-2011, 07:35 PM

If i spray how long should i wait after burning to spray. Is it possible to just lightly disc and overseed after the burn?

dbltree

03-20-2011, 07:49 PM

If i spray how long should i wait after burning to spray. Is it possible to just lightly disc and overseed after the burn?

I would spray right away because you don't want to kill any switch that emerges. Don't disturb the soil! Doing so will destroy the effectiveness of the herbicide...wait and see what, if anything is there and if you need more seed...just frost seed it this winter.

spltbrow

03-22-2011, 07:45 PM

dbltree

03-22-2011, 08:07 PM

WOW! oust is really exspensive. I have 11 acres in switch. I googled oust and it is sold by the pound? Do you think it would be worth the money to use it or just burn and see what happens? I also remember turkey hunting 4th season (late april / early May) and there was a lot of taller green grass at that time. Will this burn ok? not sure what the green grass is but it was pretty thick.

Thanks for the help as i am very new to this.

Townsend Chemical sells Oust XP by the ounce and as little as 2 ounces at $6 an ounce...link is in the herbicide thread or the beginning of this thread.

You can burn first and give that a try however but I would try very late April...;)

spltbrow

03-23-2011, 04:59 AM

Thats a lot cheaper than what i found at $300 per lb. (not sure what i was looking at i just googled it). Thanks for the advice. I will burn late april and then spray with the oust.

dbltree

03-27-2011, 10:09 PM

Snapped a couple pics of Little Bluestem the other day

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2364.jpg

Sometimes hard to distinguish from Broomsedge...(another warm season grass) but Little Blue stands out in this stand of switchgrass...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2365.jpg

Amazing how the switch has stood up despite heavy winter snows!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2363.jpg

Some fescue that didn't get killed or came up from left over seed perhaps, burning won't get rid of it but burning in late spring will help the native grass out compete it. Burning early just gives the CSG's a leg up on the natives.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2362.jpg

This stuff could be easily killed with gly and oust xp though and if spraying is in the plan then burning early and spraying the CSG re-growth would work well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2361.jpg

Where burning isn't feasible, just mow the natives off and shred up the straw so it can break down and "breathe" again but nothing beats a good late spring burn to keep native grasses healthy and robust! :way:

dbltree

03-29-2011, 04:59 PM

Here's another good post emergence broadleaf herbicide safe on native grasses

Chaparral™ Herbicide (http://techlinenews.web.officelive.com/Documents/chaparall_techinfo.pdf)

Chaparral Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld8QG009.pdf)

and Escort XP

Escort XP (http://www2.dupont.com/Land_Management/en_US/products_services/herbicides/Escort_XP_herbicide.html)

NATIVE GRASSES
ESCORT® XP is registered for weed control and
suppression in the establishment and maintenance of native
grasses. It may be used where blue grama, bluestems (big,
little, plains, sand, ww spar) bromegrasses (meadow),6
buffalograss, green sprangletop, indiangrass, kleingrass,
lovegrasses (atherstone, sand, weeping, wilman),
orchardgrass, sideoats grama, switchgrass (blackwell),
wheatgrass (bluebunch, intermediate, pubescent Siberian,
slender, streamband, tall, thickspike, western), and Russian
wildrye are established. It may also be applied over these
species in the seedling stage, except for orchardgrass and
Russian wildrye.

Escort XP is available from Townsend Chemical (http://www.thetownsendcorp.com/TownsendChemical/) as is Oust XP

spltbrow

03-30-2011, 03:54 PM

letemgrow

03-30-2011, 04:01 PM

I am going to try and burn last week in april (wheather permitting)and then fallow up with oust. Some of the field is starting to sprout green already. Can i or should i go ahead and spray with gly this weekend or next to help stop some of this grass from greening up so i can get a good burn? (i am assuming this green up is not nwsg).

I highly doubt that green grass is any form of NWSG. 6-8 inches of growth is best to get a good kill on that grass...which is probably fescue and do it when it warm out and actively growing for the fastest results.

dbltree

04-18-2011, 05:28 PM

April 18th, 2011

I finally got all the new NWSG seedings sprayed this past week, all dormant seeded in early December into what was previously crop fields. I used 1 quart of glyphosate and 4, 8 and 12 ounces of Panoramic (Plateau) to compare effectiveness at different rates.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Panoramic.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/SprayingNWSG.jpg

Fields were of course relatively clean with some weed growth just starting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSGseeding.jpg

I also sprayed some Riparian Buffer that had established switchgrass that was still struggling with foxtail and weeds in areas. Better off burned first but in this case time was limited so we mowed it and sprayed it with the same Panoramic/gly combo.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/RiparianBufferandnewNWSGseeding.jpg

You can see how thick the foxtail was in areas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Foxtailinswitchgrass.jpg

always fun to run across the occasional shed to boot

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Shed1.jpg

I left one small strip untreated in one of my fields as a comparison so we'll keep an eye on things as summer progresses.... ;)

dbltree

04-26-2011, 07:00 AM

I finally have some Eastern Gama grass started thanks to my friend Letemgrow! Phil took time to collect the seeds and send them out to me and I sure appreciate it! I elected to start these in Rootmaker cells and some of them are really taking off!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/IMG_0001.jpg

They look very much like switchgrass seedlings right now

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Eastern%20Gamagrass/IMG_0007.jpg

Eastern Gama can endure weeks of flooding and is a more "corn like" NWSG that can also endure severe droughts. It's great cover and one of the few natives that deer will even feed on as well. I plan on getting these going well and then transplanting them to some low areas where I will use atrazine on them for weed control... :way:

IQDM

04-26-2011, 10:55 AM

Awesome! how big will they be when you transplant them? Phil, u have any PCG seeds laying around? :drink2::rolleyes:

dbltree

04-26-2011, 08:23 PM

Awesome! how big will they be when you transplant them? Phil, u have any PCG seeds laying around? :drink2::rolleyes:

I may transplant them to bigger RM cells first but this is a first for me...:)

letemgrow

04-27-2011, 03:38 PM

My gama grass collection was planted yesterday...not the best day to plant after a 1/2 inch rain and the soil was waterlogged. :)

Planted part with the hoe, then decided to just walk on the gama grass seeds to push them in the soil. The different selections were flagged/tagged for future reference and included Saint Joseph, Bethany, Powersville and Mercer. Most of the selections came from the St. Joe area (20 miles radius there) and Mercer (15 mile radius there).

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/100_0257.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/100_0258.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/100_0263.jpg

dbltree

04-27-2011, 05:18 PM

Keep us posted on growth this season Phil...:way:

letemgrow

04-27-2011, 05:23 PM

Keep us posted on growth this season Phil...:way:

I sure will, they should start to germinate anytime as some of my matured plants already have green at their bases. :way:

letemgrow

04-27-2011, 05:25 PM

Awesome! how big will they be when you transplant them? Phil, u have any PCG seeds laying around? :drink2::rolleyes:

I will next fall, they must be very finickey to start tho...have collected several pounds, scatter seeded them in the fall and have yet to find one growing out of 3 broadcasts. :D

letemgrow

04-27-2011, 05:26 PM

I finally have some Eastern Gama grass started thanks to my friend Letemgrow! Phil took time to collect the seeds and send them out to me and I sure appreciate it! I elected to start these in Rootmaker cells and some of them are really taking off!

Eastern Gama can endure weeks of flooding and is a more "corn like" NWSG that can also endure severe droughts. It's great cover and one of the few natives that deer will even feed on as well. I plan on getting these going well and then transplanting them to some low areas where I will use atrazine on them for weed control... :way:

Looks like you are getting some better germination this year. :grin:

They can be spaced a yard apart and will easily fill in the gaps, or you can seed some type of beneficial forbes in between for a more diverse mix.

IQDM

04-27-2011, 10:01 PM

I will next fall, they must be very finickey to start tho...have collected several pounds, scatter seeded them in the fall and have yet to find one growing out of 3 broadcasts. :D
I have heard similar reports... Paul's Eastern Gama grass project has got me thinking I could do PCG in RM's and we might have a better chance of making it work. :way: If you could do me a favor Phil and post some pictures this fall of how you collect seeds, I may be able to find a PCG plant in my area and try it.

letemgrow

04-28-2011, 07:27 AM

I have heard similar reports... Paul's Eastern Gama grass project has got me thinking I could do PCG in RM's and we might have a better chance of making it work. :way: If you could do me a favor Phil and post some pictures this fall of how you collect seeds, I may be able to find a PCG plant in my area and try it.

I will post a little video of how I collect those seeds if I remember to this fall. I clip/pull the seed heads off and then rub my thumb and index finger from the bottom to the top of the seed-heads and they will shed off easily when mature...not all of them are that easy tho. :grin:

letemgrow

05-26-2011, 09:57 AM

The gama I planted just by stepping them into the saturated soils is not looking to shabby!! I have little doubt that I would have better germination had they been planted as deep as corn, but that was not an option with the weather and time permitted. There are 2 red circles that show the young gama popping up.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Gama%20Grass/GamaGrass-3.jpg

dbltree

05-26-2011, 12:11 PM

Looks like it worked just fine Phil!:way:

dbltree

05-30-2011, 06:06 PM

Last fall I had to kill a beautiful 2 year old stand of alfalfa in a field I enrolled in the CRP program. I sprayed it with 2 quarts of 2-4D and 2 quarts of glyphosate and it appeared to nuke the whole field. This spring on the headlands where i turned it looks like this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2823.jpg

But in the rest of the field much of the alfalfa is "returning from the dead"!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2824.jpg

This spring I re-sprayed with glyphosate and Panoramic but it merely burned it temporarily and the darn stuff just keeps making a comeback!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2825.jpg

If you need to kill a strong robust stand of alfalfa...don't spare the horses! Go the max rates and then some... ;)

Here's an example of what fields would like like without Panoramic....sprayed on the left and unsprayed on the right

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2836.jpg

Only the occasional random weed in the sprayed area

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2837.jpg

One thing about a clean field...you can tell if any NWSG seedings come up...pretty slim pickin's so far

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2826.jpg

Cold wet spring weather doesn't warm up this ole clay very fast but those with sandy loam soils may find some seedlings have emerged.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/CIMG2834.jpg

90 degree weather should get the seedlings popping up soon though.... :way:

dbltree

06-14-2011, 08:24 AM

June 14th, 2011

So much for "normal" summer weather in SE Iowa! Torrential rainfall continues, much of it localized heavy rain that keeps soils waterlogged and cooler then normal. The water logged soils keep tiny seedlings from sending roots downward as the oxygen starved plants slowly drown.

Obviously all areas of the country are not experiencing this, so NWSG emergence will vary widely but since NWSG thrives on hot, humid and dry weather...cool wet weather is not helpful in establishing a new NWSG seeding.

Emergence is very slow but because mine was drilled I can just barely start to "row" it in some places on hill sides

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_5093.jpg

the Panoramic is keeping it clean thus far but relentless rainfall will eventually push the herbicide below the effective area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_5095.jpg

Cool wet weather slows down an already slow process so patience is even more important if your establishing NWSG during cool wet years... ;)

Homer1974

06-17-2011, 11:31 AM

Hey guys I am glad I ran into your forum. I am in Illinois but I thought I would tell you about my NWSG patch that I have started this spring. I hit the sod with round-up and Plateua and drilled the seed with a rented drill. The area lays to the north of my house and I had been mowing twice a week for the three years that we have lived at the property. I decided I would rather have something more to look at than just mowed grass and thought I would give this a try for the birds and any other critter that can benefit from the planting. I used a mix from a local Quails Unlimited group and the partridge pea is shooting threw the best but I am finding lots of other seedlings pushing through. Keep the forum going, I found more ideas on here then anywhere else. I will try to attach some pics sometime.

LoessHillsArcher

06-17-2011, 11:48 AM

Welcome to the forum, and share all the pics you got! They are fun to look at and learn from

dbltree

06-27-2011, 03:26 PM

June 28th, 2011

This is drilled in NWSG seedling growth on June 20th...the rows are still very faint but more noticeable

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/6-20-11NWSG.jpg

Those seedlings are in a field treated with Panoramic so imagine trying to find seedlings in a field of foxtail and weeds?? Not going to happen...so one is better off to find something more constructive to do then look for NWSG seedlings the first year. ;)

dbltree

07-10-2011, 07:08 PM

July 10th, 2011

AJ sent in some great pics of his NWSG seeding in which he used Plateau/Panoramic herbicide and missed a spot here and there!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG5.jpg

It's easy to see how bad the foxtail would have been if not for the use of herbicides!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG4.jpg

The beginnings of a great stand of NWSG...150 acres worth I might add! :eek: :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG1.jpg

Thanks AJ! :)

dbltree

07-14-2011, 01:36 PM

Everyone has different weed problems depending on where you live, but one of the most difficult for me to deal with is pigweed! That stuff is hard to keep at bay in my neck of the woods and surprisingly where I applied Panoramic heavier on the headlands the pigweed seemed to thrive?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG2-1.jpg

It's really not thick enough to cause any serious competition with the NWSG seedlings but I clipped it off just above the average native grass height.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG1-1.jpg

From early July...approximate NWSG growth, imagine if it was buried i a sea of foxatil!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG6.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG3-1.jpg

The alfalfa I sprayed last fall with glyphosate and 2-4d is starting to get sick from the Panoramic

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG4-1.jpg

Constant heavy spring rains pushed the poison deep into the soil and even though alfalfa is supposed to be Plateau tolerant, it's slowly dying.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG5-1.jpg

If it were a grass only stand I could easily have killed the pigweed and alfalfa with 2-4D but with forbs in the stand 2-4D is not an option. Switchgrass and Big Bluestem are a little easier to establish because they are tolerant of herbicides like atrazine and minus the forbs 2-4D can be used.

In this case I left the switchgrass out so I could apply the Panoramic at higher rates and will frost seed it into the stand this winter... :way:

dbltree

07-27-2011, 12:05 PM

July 27th, 2011

The following are some examples of clipping weeds in NWSG seedings because it's very important not to "mow" the seedlings off close to the ground. NWSG can be killed by repeatedly mowing or grazing to close to the soil surface so while mowing frequently the first year is an effective means of controlling competitive weeds...use caution to keep the mower up so that it's passing over the top of the young seedlings as much as possible.

In this case pigweed came up despite the use of Panoramic herbicide and while was not thick enough to really compete with the NWSG I really didn't want it to go to seed either.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG3-2.jpg

In each photo you can see the young NWSG is not cut but the much taller broadleaves are chopped off

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG2-2.jpg

I used a brush cutter/bush hog type mower and the young grasses tend to push downward under the rotating blades while the heavier broadleaf plants where cut off

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG1-2.jpg

In this case the pigweed could have been easily killed with 2-4D but I would have also killed the forbs in the NWSG mix, so I elected to simply clip them off

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/NWSG4-2.jpg

Tens of thousands of acres of NWSG has been established over the years simply by clipping weeds off 2-6 times the first summer so where budgets don't allow for the use of herbicides, mowing is a viable option....just keep the mower high enough to cut as few of the NWSG seedlings as possible while still allowing in sunlight be removing the weed canopy.... :way:

LoessHillsArcher

07-27-2011, 01:39 PM

We've got an area of old pasture that hasn't been grazed in 15-20 years. We did two late spring burns to this area in the past 4 or 5 years and the results were noticeable and we saw prairie returning immediately but it was obvious it was going take something more than fire to get rid of the thick brome.

Here is part of the area before we did any burning
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/101_0302.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/100_0887.jpg

This spring we burned March 4th and allowed the brome to green up the entire month of March and most of April. On April 24th we came in and sprayed the brome with round-up. This was pushing it for us as the prairie was starting to wake up at this time but the green shoots hadn't opened up completely on the prairie plants and they weren't harmed by the round-up. The brome however was knocked back really well. Here you can see the edge of the area we treated the brome
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/104_1988.jpg

And today, as of July 25th, we've identified many prairie grasses, flowers, and other plants! We seeded switch grass in the areas that had thick brome, hoping to have it fill in next year.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2336.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/104_2306.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2335.jpg

Killing the brome really opened up the ground floor for those grass clumps and left a nice open prairie floor for young birds
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2385.jpg

Main grasses are:
big blue stem
side oats gama
with a little indian grass, little blue stem, and switch grass

Flowers and forbs identified so far are:
partridge pea
canada golden rod
pale purple cone flower
lead plant
thin vervain
hoary vervain
horse nettle
wild begamot
common milkweed
along with other plants we are working on identifying

Here are some pictures of the flowers, there are always bees in the flowers it seems
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/104_1993.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2372.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2377.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2380.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2392.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2338.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/100_2337.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/iowadeerhunter/Number%20two/104_2308.jpg

Burning late really helps restore a native prairie but in extreme cases, like ours, use of round-up at the right time seemed to really help things! But be very careful... application at the wrong time could end up doing much more harm than good.

letemgrow

07-27-2011, 01:46 PM

That is looking great Jordan!! Lots of neat prairie species there.

jkfish

08-07-2011, 11:28 AM

My "by the book" NWSG planting this year, using Plateau, etc, has been hijacked by a broadleaf matt of Primrose Willow allowing for only scant grass growth. I hit the willow again mid summer with another 6oz's of Plateau which seems to have done nothing but amuse it. But in preparing other sites for planting NWSG next year, I have found that Grazon P+D melts it. I have not tried 2,4-D on this weed, but my experience has been 2,4-D sucks on anyting that has more than ten minutes of root growth.

So, does anyone have experience using Grazon P+D or GrazonNext on NWSG's, either new or established stands? Will they tolerate it and at what stages of growth? I would use Oust XP next spring, but I am pretty sure I will need to overseed to thicken up this marginally successful start. I have seen several posts discussing Milestone which, like GrazonNext, is aminopyralid, although I think it may be a slightly different acid (carboxylic vs. acetic?). But, it does sound like Milestone and GrazonNext are essentially interchangeable.

Thanks for any experiece with Grazon. In the meantime, I am testing atrazine on the willow.

droptine37

08-07-2011, 01:12 PM

Well we jumped head first into the world of native warm season grasses this year when our property qualified for the general crp enrollment. I had to do a little convincing but I think it was the best thing we could do for our property. Since, everything I know about these grasses I learned right here on this thread I thought I would share what the place looks like as of august 1st.

Our property is basically as sandy as you can get. We have some sand hills that literally didnt have weeds grow on them let alone corn or soybeans. So after fighting these sandy soils for years trying to farm them we finally made the decision that crp would do a world of good for these fields. Between the added cover for wildlife and the soil building that comes along with grass it was a no brainer.

We borrowed two old 12ft gravity fed fertilizer spreaders to plant our seed in early march. The nature conservancy is big in Northern Illinois and they do an excellant job of helping local land owners who are trying to re-establish native habitat. The old gravity fed fertilizer spreaders really work well seeding native grasses. As most of you know some of these fluffy seeds are not the easiest to get seeded with convential seeders. These old fertilzer spreaders work great and to top it off you can just pull them behind a truck or even a larger atv. I was worried that we waited too long to get our seed frost seeded but because of all the snow the earliest we could get the seed down was the beginning of march. March ended up being a great month as far as the freezing and thawing action we saw. It even continued into april and I felt really good about "waking" our seed up.

One of the head habitat specialists at the Nature Conservancy really offered us a lot of advice on our project. We thought because of the poor quality of soils we would be planting into that we might have a problem getting a good established native grass field. He actually said we would see just the opposite results. In his years of habitat restoration he said he always has his best results in the poorest soils. The better the soil and the more weed pressure the field would see. I had my doubts but after seeing the results I would have to say he was right on.

Our fields are looking great if you ask me. I know many people say that the first year often looks less than impressive but I cant say that I haven't ever had that thought. Because of our poor soils we never had a real influx of weeds in the fields in april or may. By early to mid June I could already see that our seed had established its self and it was looking good and even throughout our planting. Of course by early august some weeds pressure is occuring in some of the areas that we did have nice, rich soils. But just like my friend at the conservancy said our worst soils, pure sand, are the areas that are looking the best. Almost no weed pressure and the natives have taken off. Without the competion from the weeds for the sun and moisture these "sandy" areas are looking the best. Here is a picture from one part of our field that we call the sand box. It literally has sand in this area like you would see in a sand box and hasnt had a weed or corn stalk grow in it for several seasons. It sure didnt stop these natives

http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/2066-crp_northwest_field.jpg

As you can see in the background this is sand. Its almost pure white in some areas. We did have some areas get washed out with some of those big early season rains we had but I would guess in a year or two the whole field will fill in. This area hardly has a weed in it. The natives are not as tall as I thought they would be by now but they are really looking healthy and full considering the hot, dry conditions we had in july. Here's another picture of a different part of the field where the soils are much better.

http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/2066-crp_southfield.jpg

The grass is much taller in this area but so are the weeds. I am not sure if you can see it or not but I planted two different mixes in this field. One was a shorter grass mix and the other was more of a tall grass prairie mix and you can see the line in the field where one mix ends and the other one starts. Pretty cool that you can see the difference this early into the establishment. We must have had some type of wild sunflower in our mix because there is plenty of it out there growing next to our bean plot. We enrolled just over 5 acres into food plots with our signup and here is a picture of one of our plots.

http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/2066-south_field_foodplot.jpg

This plot is two strips of soybeans with sorghum right down the middle. The beans are looking decent but have had significant deer pressure. We had the same problem last year but by the end of August our beans were waist high. Were hoping the same thing happens this year. The sorghum looks real good also. Plenty of weeds in the sorghum because it wasnt roundup ready but I think it adds some nice cover in the plot. Plenty of doves came busting out of the field when we mowed our firebreaks.

http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/2066-crp_southfield_firebreak.jpg

Again you can see plenty of weeds in this picture but again this is an area with some of our better soils. We decided not to use any herbicides so we knew weeds would show up. We did mow once in early july and its seemed to help. I really think some weeds are a good thing and with some timely fires in the future I think this 50 acre field will turn into some great habitat. These firebreaks are nearly 14 ft wide. Hopefully they do there job at stopping futures fires from hoping the fence.

Anyways, I thought I would share all that we have accomplished thanks to the help of DblTree and everyone else who has contributed to this thread over the years. What a great resource we have right here free of charge. Thanks guys

dbltree

08-07-2011, 04:11 PM

Thanks much for sharing the pics!:way:

Daver

08-07-2011, 04:46 PM

Nice post Droptine, I hadn't considered the notion of the poorer soils actually leading to a better 1st year stand of NWSG, but it makes sense if you think about it.

letemgrow

08-07-2011, 07:41 PM

A great NWSG for moist areas is prairie cord grass. This stuff will grow in places where water stands for weeks, and also upland soils.

This was scatter seeded 2-3 years ago in the fall on a prepped bed and I went off and forgot about it, thought nothing took, well this year I will have seeds to collect off my own farm!! It stands up very well in winter too.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Prairie%20Cord%20Grass/100_0397.jpg

wild80

08-09-2011, 01:03 PM

Paul,

I was hoping to have you possibly lay out what you would consider to be a step by step approach for preparing for a spring 2012 frost seeding of NWSG's.

I have a new enrollment and have never established the grass your way. I am very interested in trying your approach. So... Where should we be in terms of prep now? And what are the steps we need to take between now and March to insure our best chance of success.

If there is already a thread with a synopsis of this info please redirect me.

Thanks in advance!

dbltree

08-09-2011, 05:51 PM

I was hoping to have you possibly lay out what you would consider to be a step by step approach for preparing for a spring 2012 frost seeding of NWSG's. Perfect time to go over the steps!

1) Mow existing sod (if in soybeans or corn...do nothing until step 3)

2) Allow re-growth to occur 1-2 weeks) and spray with 2 quarts of glyphosate and 1 quart of crop oil (CO is optional but I feel it gives me a better kill)

3) Broadcast or no-til drill seed anytime from early December thru early March

4) In early to mid April, spray again with 1 quart gly and 6-10 ounces of Panoramic (Plateau)

5) Monitor weed control because at lower rates on heavy soils a second application of 4-6 ounces of Panoramic may be needed after NWSG has 5 leaves. Clipping 12" high or higher to clip off broadleaves will also work equally as well.Foxtail is the biggest problem and panoramic is pretty good at controlling it but I have to use 12-14 ounces per acre to control tough broadleaves like pigweed. Rarely do the broadleaves really compete with the NWSG however so not to worry if a few come up late in the summer.

On pure switchgrass or big bluestem seedings I use 1/2- 1 ounce of Oust with the initial fall spraying but Oust is very potent and can have a negative effect on other forbs and grasses in a NWSG mix.

wild80

08-10-2011, 10:41 AM

Paul,

Much appreciated. I will try to document the process and include it on the forums.

Thanks again!

jkfish

08-10-2011, 09:08 PM

Does anyone have experience using Milestone during NWSG establishment (Big/little blue and Indian grass...not Switchgrass)?

The DowAgro website says that aminopyralid (Milestone) planted at the time of NWSG seeding will reduce grass stands 25-90%.

But, it says it is OK to use Milestone after secondary root growth, or approx. 45-60 days after germination.

I have read on other threads of someone using a Milestone 4 oz/Plateau 6 oz combo at time of planting. I tried Plateau/Gly this year and was in a jungle in sixty days with literally 6 foot Ragweed over my head in some areas and willow matts in others, without fertilizer of course. The broadleaves are killing me.

I would also be interested to know if anyone has tried a "mid-summer" Milestone spray. Thanks

dbltree

08-11-2011, 05:12 AM

I believe Milestone is safe to used on NWSG once it has 3-4 leaves or you can just clip the broadleaves off and they'll probably be done for the summer.

spltbrow

08-30-2011, 07:28 PM

I will be frost seeding switch, indian, and big blue for the first time in switch field i have been trying to rejuvinate.
About 60% of the field is dead from the oust and gly i have sprayed throughout the year. How important is it to kill what sparatic stuff is left this year or can i do it in the spring?
Also how does some of the dead stuff laying there effect the seed to soil contact? (i am seeding about 6 acres and just realized that seed is not cheap). Do i need to clear the field some how?

OR

Also kicking around the idea of discing in spring and seeding along with planting some corn into stand. Spacing the corn aways apart. Then hitting with atrazine.

Any thoughts?

dbltree

08-31-2011, 04:19 PM

You can't use atrazine on Indiangrass or little Bluestem and the dead thatch won't hurt anything if dormant seeded this winter, wet snow and heavy late winter rains will help seed make soil contact.

Planting with corn can work if the corn is not planted at too heavy of a population but Indiangrass rules out the use of atrazine.

spltbrow

08-31-2011, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE=dbltree;430055]You can't use atrazine on Indiangrass or little Bluestem

Thats a bummer are there any other options? I sappose 24-d will work but that eliminates my corn??

dbltree

09-01-2011, 05:16 PM

[QUOTE=dbltree;430055]You can't use atrazine on Indiangrass or little Bluestem

Thats a bummer are there any other options? I sappose 24-d will work but that eliminates my corn??

2-4D only control broadleaf weeds but is safe on corn and NWSG..Paramount will control foxtail in most NWSG sprayed after the foxtail emerges next summer. Also called Drive 75...;)

SWBUCKHNTR

09-14-2011, 07:04 PM

Will fire hurt notill drilled seed? I just had a chemically burned field drilled and there are some cedars cut down in it. If I burned that field with fire would that hurt those seeds?

dbltree

09-15-2011, 05:11 AM

Will fire hurt notill drilled seed? I just had a chemically burned field drilled and there are some cedars cut down in it. If I burned that field with fire would that hurt those seeds?

Might be kind of risky because the drill likely laid the seeds on top of the soil rather then covering them. Kind of late to be sowing NWSG now??

SWBUCKHNTR

09-15-2011, 06:41 AM

Might be kind of risky because the drill likely laid the seeds on top of the soil rather then covering them. Kind of late to be sowing NWSG now??

Yeah tell me about it. We had a wet spring in the lacona area and couldnt get them in. The county was nice enough to give me an extension but they wouldn't work with me on the date. I had from the 1st of sept until the 30th. I pushed for a frost seeding but they had no part of it.

KSHUNTER

10-05-2011, 12:27 PM

What is the best way to control strips of johnsongrass in native grass. The previous landowner let it get a little out of control, so now the patches are big enough I really don't want to spot spray and kill a big area of everthing.

I have been thinking about a weed wiper, anyone have any experience? The strips of Johnsongrass are kind of long a narrow, and the JG is a lot taller than the natives in these spots. It is amazing how tall and quick that stuff grows, even in drought conditions.

Otherwise I will just start spraying with RU and have big dead spots until I get it killed.

Sligh1

10-05-2011, 12:42 PM

How about spraying round-up in spring with something like atrazine right before natives come up? Or Oust.

KSHUNTER

10-05-2011, 02:16 PM

Correct me if Im wrong, but I think/thought that JG is also a warm season grass, so it is greening up the same time as the natives.

Is JG a cool season?

Sligh1

10-05-2011, 03:45 PM

I might look at the Oust label. JG is a tough one and ya, it's a warm season now that I think about it. Oust might not be the best option BUT I'm sure Dbltree could comment on that later. Oust COULD be an option BUT.... Is this sparse enough you could spot spray and reseed in those areas?

letemgrow

10-05-2011, 05:04 PM

Correct me if Im wrong, but I think/thought that JG is also a warm season grass, so it is greening up the same time as the natives.

Is JG a cool season?

Outrider will toast your JG and is safe for at least most native warm season grasses...another name for it is Certainty Herbicide. :way:

letemgrow

10-05-2011, 05:06 PM

Here is the label for outrider, go to page 4, section 13 for the native grasses.

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld2ST014.pdf

KSHUNTER

10-06-2011, 11:56 AM

Thanks guys, outrider looks like it will work great for me. I mainly have a mix of bluestem and indian grass, both are labeled for safe use.

I have always wondered what the road crews were spraying on JG, and not nuking the native it was growing beside it, I bet this is it.

dbltree

10-09-2011, 10:24 AM

October 9th, 2011

Often first year NWSG appears to be a failure because plants tend to grow down rather then up and if there is weed competition, what little growth there is may be difficult to find. Herbicides like Panoramic/Plateau help reduce or eliminate competition and speed growth of NWSG seedlings and making it easier to discern the native grass from weeds. I dormant seeded NWSG in December 2010 using a Truax no-till drill and sprayed 1 quart of 41% glyphosate along with 6-8 ounces of Panoramic in April 2011. Cold wet weather delayed germination and then hot dry weather slowed growth in late summer but the use of herbicide allows me to share just how small some seedlings are the first year.

I turned in this area with the sprayer so got higher rates here which also happens to be an area of poor clay subsoil with low organic matter...but most of the plants shown are NWSG...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6310.jpg

Indiangrass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6311.jpg

Little Bluestem

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6312.jpg

Plant size varies across the field and many Big Bluestem plants are over my head...just as many are not and if this field had not been sprayed and full of foxtail...one might struggle to find any NWSG plants at all!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6309.jpg

At 6-8 ounces the Panoramic did not control pigweed although it never got thick enough to ever inhibit growth of the NWSG seedlings and some alfalfa slowly struggled to return but again, not enough to compete with the NWSG.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6313.jpg

I left out the switchgrass because at rates above 3-4 ounces Panoramic can kill young switch seedlings so I will frost seed the switch and any Panoramic non-tolerant forbs at the same time. There is plenty of bare soil for great soil seed contact and the switch seeds are easy to broadcast and the other natives will be well enough established to out compete weeds in 2012 without using any weed control.

Meanwhile...deer are happily feeding on the surviving alfalfa plants while using the young NWSG for cover....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Deer%20in%20NWSG/IMG_6153.jpg

dbltree

10-28-2011, 11:48 PM

October 29th, 2011

One of the fields I dormant seeded in early December 2010 to a NWSG mix of tall grasses and forbs and then sprayed with 8 ounces of Panoramic this past April. Whitetails are using this field heavily for bedding cover already...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6469.jpg

Pigweed and some marestail invaded mid summer but not enough to affect the growth of the NWSG.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6470.jpg

Now in CRP there I have gained much needed cover on my farm and deer are happy to use the hill side cover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_6471.jpg

In the coming year the natives will mature, the annual weeds will not return and whitetails will quickly adapt to this safe bedding sanctuary that other then burning, will not be disturbed... ;)

medicsnoke

12-05-2011, 07:38 PM

dbltree

12-06-2011, 05:36 AM

So I never got around to mowing and spraying my intended areas that I would like to establish warm season grasses (buffer strips) . Its prob to late to spray? Is their anything I can do to help prepare for Spring planting of warm season grasses now? Or whats my best plan of action?

Unfortunately there is little you can do this time of year...BEST plan is to get it done properly next summer/fall and seed next winter.

dbltree

12-10-2011, 06:18 AM

Truax Seed Slinger

I purchased an ATV mounted Seed Slinger recently for dormant seeding fluffy NWSG seed and put it to the test the other day and it worked flawlessly.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Truax%20Seed%20Slinger/IMG_6871.jpg

It handled the fluffy, (nearly impossible to sow by other broadcasting methods) seed with ease, note it has a separate seed compartment for small hard, seeds like switchgrass, wildflowers, clover etc.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Truax%20Seed%20Slinger/IMG_6872.jpg

Price is roughly $560 but it appears well built and easy to mount/remove from the ATV

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Truax%20Seed%20Slinger/IMG_6874.jpg

Because the seed is like spreading "dandelion fluff" it doesn't spread far with perhaps a 4' wide path but I ran about 8-10 mph and quickly covered a lot of acres.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Truax%20Seed%20Slinger/IMG_6873.jpg

The ATV option allows one to get into wet, boggy fields, small hard to reach places, gives the landowner the option of doing the seeding themselves without investing in a $10,000 drill or hiring someone to do it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Truax%20Seed%20Slinger/IMG_6875.jpg

It is of course just an option that may or may not be right for you...but I am happy with this one so far....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/Truax%20Seed%20Slinger/IMG_6876.jpg

Call Truax to order....

TRUAX SEED SLINGER (http://www.truaxcomp.com/seed-slinger.html)

IQDM

12-17-2011, 02:40 PM

letemgrow

12-17-2011, 03:42 PM

Well it has been awhile! I haven't been on IW or any other fourm all summer and fall due to work and internet issues!:thrwrck:...
I had a lot of reading to catch up on this week! I have missed you guys and all of your great posts! I can't wait to share some some of the stuff I've been working on as well. Meanwhile, Congrat's on the buck Paul and Congrats on finally getting some PCG to grow Phil! Did you ever take pictures or video of how you harvest seed from them? and Paul, that NWSG seeder is awesome! I have the hand crank model and it works great! I wish I had got the atv model however because my shoulders get pretty sore on anything more than an acre! Heavy!

I cut or pull the entire seeds heads of and then its kind of like shelling corn. they are collected in a paper grocery bag since they poke through a plastic one. I roll each individual stem of the seedheads in between my fingers and they usually come off pretty easily. Now some are tough to get the seeds off. If they are tought to just roll off the seedhead, I just pull them off the stems.

The percentage is still very small of what I have got to grow seed wise, but the good thing about PCG is it will spread by rhizomes...went back and sprayed that area of all the fescue this November so it should really spread out this coming year.

IQDM

12-20-2011, 06:13 PM

Ok so I have a crp mix that is going to be planted this spring on a property that I help do habitat work on... (habitat work for free hunting = sounds good to me :way:)
The owner picked out a mix that he felt was the "tallest cover" when I asked him what seeds were in the mix, he mentioned some clovers (which didnt really scream cover to me) and red top... Does anyone know about red top? I havent heard it mentioned in this thread. Is it any good as far as cover is concerned? I would have rather him go with a mix that I knew a little more about... (indian, Little blue, big blue, switchgrass, etc.)
But it is his land, he calls the shots and I just plant it. :)

letemgrow

12-20-2011, 08:32 PM

Is red top what is also called purple top?...gets about 3 feet tall and its not anything near being what I would call cover??

IQDM

12-20-2011, 09:27 PM

I did some research and found out that red top is actually a cool season grass... which makes sense to me now because the mix contains clovers. It must be a cool season CRP mix... Wouldn't be my choice :(

medicsnoke

12-29-2011, 03:39 AM

I guess my parcel is good proof that it may take 3-4 years for a prairie to get established. Can't wait to burn next spring.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/CRP8-13-09003.jpg?t=1250268880

Granted I took these pictures in a area that had some "natives", But at least I know they were in the hopper when planted.

http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/tomt2009/CRP8-13-09007.jpg?t=1250269114
This looks amazing.....Im sitting here day dreaming my back 20 acres will look like this in a few years

tsainswo8768

01-25-2012, 08:44 AM

Hey guys,

I found your amazing thread about a month ago while doing research on NWSG's. I stumbled onto one of your archived threads and eventually found my way hear. I have read just about all the threads since 2006 and am blown away by the knowledge and generosity of sharing that knowledge on the thread with others. You guys are awesome.

First I must come clean and say that I am not from Iowa but my parents lived there and my sister currently plays soccer for the hawkeyes. I love the state but must admit I live in Illinois. So I'm hoping you guys are willing to help out and out of stater on some questions I have. I will post pictures of the whole process from scratch as we move along.

Now to the point. We are closing on a piece of property on friday. It currently has about 70 acres of CRP. Im not sure which grasses are in there as I havent looked closely enough the couple times I have been there, but I do know it isn't what we are looking for. The height of the plants are only about knee high and we are looking to get some good cover developed for wildlife (especially deer and turkey).

My first question is will it be possible, without voiding the contract, to transfrom these CRP feild into grasses with more height and desirablty.(we are looking at CIR, Big blue, and indian grass with some possible forbes mixed in)

Second if it is possible, what is the best way to go about it. I understand frost seeding and drilling right into the frozen ground/sod being the best method to go about it but in this case do you recommend tilling the land first to get all of the debris in the ground and then packing it to allow for a firm seed bed or will there be enough exposed soil to just seed over the mowed old grasses?

Also is it necessary to plant beans this year to allow for a round up spray and wait till next year to plant the CIR,Big blue and Indain grass mix?

I know we will have to consult with a NRCS guy about the whole process but there is nothing like asking guys who have done it first hand and understand the whole process.

I'm just trying to get a head start on the whole process and would love any pointers/information. I can see the passion and enthusiam in many of your post and can see myself having that same fire once the whole process begins!

Thanks again for all the information you have provided in previous posts and keep it up!:way:

Tim

huntyak

01-25-2012, 09:04 AM

[QUOTE=tsainswo8768;459756]Hey guys,

I found your amazing thread about a month ago while doing research on NWSG's. I stumbled onto one of your archived threads and eventually found my way hear. I have read just about all the threads since 2006 and am blown away by the knowledge and generosity of sharing that knowledge on the thread with others. You guys are awesome.

First I must come clean and say that I am not from Iowa but my parents lived there and my sister currently plays soccer for the hawkeyes. I love the state but must admit I live in Illinois. So I'm hoping you guys are willing to help out and out of stater on some questions I have. I will post pictures of the whole process from scratch as we move along.

Now to the point. We are closing on a piece of property on friday. It currently has about 70 acres of CRP. Im not sure which grasses are in there as I havent looked closely enough the couple times I have been there, but I do know it isn't what we are looking for. The height of the plants are only about knee high and we are looking to get some good cover developed for wildlife (especially deer and turkey).

My first question is will it be possible, without voiding the contract, to transfrom these CRP feild into grasses with more height and desirablty.(we are looking at CIR, Big blue, and indian grass with some possible forbes mixed in)

Hi Tim and welcome to IW...even though yor from Illinois ;) Ha ha...JK.
Most NRCS offices would love more guys like you IMO. I am doing the same thing and while cost share will be limited to non-existent, they should have no trouble giving you the go ahead.

I think your best yield will be a good kill thsi fall, then drill in the seed next January or February, followed by plateau for BB/Indian or atrazine for Switch IF you really want to give it a boost. If not, spraying again after planting can give one more kill to anything that comes up, as long as you do it early enough before the NWSG germinate, which I think is around 62 degrees soil temp.

Good luck!

dbltree

01-26-2012, 05:12 AM

Tim,

This forum is nationwide and we do our best to help everyone :way:

NRCS will not allow you to plant soybeans on CRP acres (except in a designated food plot) but they will almost always allow you to convert it to NWSG.

Best bet is always to mow in late summer, spray in September and dormant seed in late winter but you can attempt a spring spray with sometimes less then desirable results.

get the ok from NRCS and then please come back and ask questions each step of the way and we'll do our best to answer your questions....:)

SWBUCKHNTR

01-26-2012, 09:01 AM

tsainswo8768

01-26-2012, 10:48 AM

Thanks for all the help so far guys!! One more day and we close on the property, can't wait! We are going to go out on sunday and tredge around to admire and perhaps start to plan on all the work that needs to be done this year. Property hasnt been hunted in over 10 years so it's got alot of work to be done, but alot of potential as well. I'll take lots of pictures and post some after the weekend to try and give you guys a better idea of what we are dealing with!

thanks again,
Tim

SWBUCKHNTR

01-27-2012, 07:01 AM

Has anyone ever frost seeded into corn stalks? I had a buddy asking me about it and I have never done it

Daver

01-27-2012, 08:08 AM

Has anyone ever frost seeded into corn stalks? I had a buddy asking me about it and I have never done it

I think the key there would be how much "trash" is present on the ground in the form of corn leaves, etc. If it was a field where they chopped the corn for silage I would think that would be ideal, just about like a bean field. If though there was a heavy corn leaf residue like there would be with a normal harvest then I think an awful lot of your seed would end up not meeting up with the ground and you would have poor germination.

If you have a lot of trash...maybe you could mow the stalks now and thereby mulch up the leaves some at the same time. Although I have never done that, I could see where if you did it that it would work well. A lot of the trash, once mulched up, would blow away too.

hotshott2289

01-27-2012, 08:18 AM

will the NRCS plant for you are will they hire another outfit? I only ask because I would rather have someone do ours who has experience with warm season grasses and get it done right

huntyak

01-27-2012, 09:10 AM

They will help but dont know what they charge per acre.

dbltree

01-28-2012, 06:33 AM

Has anyone ever frost seeded into corn stalks? I had a buddy asking me about it and I have never done it

You bet...did most of mine last year into corn stubble and it worked great! :way:

Homer1974

02-28-2012, 11:56 AM

Hey everyone, I planted a liittle less than an acre of a short wsg mix this past spring and was really happy with my results. I used plateau and pulled out most of the weeds that came later in the season. My question to you guys is should I burn this patch off soon or not burn this year at all. I have partridge pea, coneflowers and some other plateau tolerant forbs as well, so my second question is this, do I spray this area again with plateau this spring to keep the weeds at bay? Any help is appreciated.

dbltree

02-28-2012, 03:48 PM

Homer1974

02-29-2012, 08:11 AM

Thanks for the info dbltree. I have enjoyed watching my grass and forbes grow and have alot more birds and wildlife showing up. The biggest weed problem I have is pig weed. I wasn't sure what it was until I spotted it in one of your posts. Thanks

dbltree

02-29-2012, 07:09 PM

The biggest weed problem I have is pig weed.

GRRRR! Don't get me started...I hate pigweed! :thrwrck::D

medicsnoke

03-07-2012, 10:06 AM

Unfortunately there is little you can do this time of year...BEST plan is to get it done properly next summer/fall and seed next winter.

Dbltree,

Ok sorry if Im beating a dead horse. But Im itching to plan something, anything to provide soft edge along the roadways and field edges on my farm. The areas I want this in is currently an old hay crop. Is their any kind of medium to tall grass that I can palnt having not done soil preperation last fall?

dbltree

03-07-2012, 09:17 PM

Dbltree,

Ok sorry if Im beating a dead horse. But Im itching to plan something, anything to provide soft edge along the roadways and field edges on my farm. The areas I want this in is currently an old hay crop. Is their any kind of medium to tall grass that I can plant having not done soil preparation last fall?

I assume you are referring to native grasses and not something like Egyptian Wheat? Remember it can take up to three years to establish a good stand of native grass and in most cases it will not get tall enough to screen from the road....cedars are far better for that purpose.

If you want to establish NWSG you must prepare by killing the sod first...unless of course you like throwing money away. It's not "soil" prep that needs to be done...it's about killing the sod grass first and that is an iffy proposition trying to do that in the spring and establish natives at the same time.

You'll have to get it killed with glyphosate and panoramic and then use a NWSG drill to no-till drill it in....if you are prepared to do all of that I'll elaborate...;)

Sligh1

03-16-2012, 08:25 AM

OneCam

03-16-2012, 09:21 AM

http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/NPKnowledge/soiltemphistory.html

Map showing soil temps across Iowa. With this weather, I am concerned things will be popping up earlier than normal. Just something I'm watching just in case it seems to be a bit earlier spring/summer this year.

Thanks Skip ...

I have a few burns originally planned for the first part of May to maximize effectiveness.

Does anyone have suggestions regarding how to identify the best time to burn (CIR) this year?

Sligh1

03-16-2012, 01:47 PM

Fire isn't going to hurt NWSG's so if you burnt a little too late, not that big of deal. On the other hand, spraying round-up "too late" is the end of native grasses if much is up. I am moving my stuff up ONE MONTH most likely this year. I am spraying my round-up early April, maybe April 1 if this weather continues. heck, if it really continues, maybe even sooner! Burning, I think I'd be burning mid-april. Most the cool seasons are up and most the NWSG's hopefully won't be up yet BUT who knows. Watch these soil temps!!!! The thing folks need to really watch is spraying round-up too late!!!!!

dbltree

03-17-2012, 05:29 AM

Thanks for posting the link Skip...I'll just add a few thoughts on the subject :way:

When to burn....when to spray??

This time of year I am often asked about the timing for burning and spraying NWSG but weather is the key factor and the timing of either burning or spraying is largely dependent on soil temps.

Burning...

Native warm season grasses are WARM season grasses that regardless if established or a new seeding come up far later then cool seasons like brome or fescue. Burning to early then, encourages the cool seasons to explode to life long before the native grasses and that defeats the purpose. Burning should be timed so that it occurs just before or just as the NWSG is ready or starting to emerge. ***NOTE*** do not burn new seedings! Wait 2-3 years for the plants to become fully established before burning!

In the mid west typically late April to early May would be optimum burn times but this year with unusual record temps, that time may very well be several weeks earlier. It's the middle of March, 80 degrees and this field of brome grass (cool season) is already growing!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_7497.jpg

If one wanted to burn that field...now would be the time but with native grass it is still too early and it defeats the purpose if we encourage the cool season grasses to grow before the natives are ready. Time the burn so that the natives will emerge at the same time as the cool seasons and dominate them.

Spraying...

Spraying a new dormant seeding or established NWSG stand also requires careful observation when weather warms abnormally early, typically a glyphosate can be applied well into mid to late April with no worries that the NWSG plants will have emerged, but this year is different!

NWSG seed may begin to germinate when soils are consistently at 65 degrees for 5 or more days and established NWSG will emerge before then so watch soil temps in your area and spray before NWSG might emerge.

This soil temp map (or one like it in your area) allows us to keep an eye on things and be prepared to take action before it's too late.

4 inch soil temp maps (http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/NPKnowledge/soiltemphistory.html)

Note that the cool season brome is well on it's way and soils are only in the 50's

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NWSG/IMG_7496.jpg

That allows us to spray a herbicide cocktail of glyphosate and Panoramic/Plateau to kill cool seasons before the NWSG emerges. In the case of switchgrass alone, use gly and atrazine or simazine.

I Iowa typically dormant seeded switchgrass could be sprayed with gly and atrazine all the way up to May 10th but if abnormally warm temps continue, the switch seed will germinate long before them.

Those are just some cautions to be aware of and there are of course other options and exceptions but at the very least...don't nuke your new NWSG seeding based on previous "time/date" factors...watch the weather and act accordingly.... ;)

rackhunter

03-21-2012, 06:49 AM

How long before a rain does Atrazine have to be applied to work. Lets say i spray at 2pm and it rains early evening. Would this be ok?

showstopper

03-21-2012, 09:25 AM

If I am doing a heavy dose of atrizine do I still need to do a treatment of gly? Does atrizine only work as a pre-emergent? Thanks for the help!

dbltree

03-21-2012, 02:42 PM

How long before a rain does Atrazine have to be applied to work. Lets say i spray at 2pm and it rains early evening. Would this be ok?

Atrazine will be more effective once you get a rain to help incorporate it into the soil surface so sooner is better.

If I am doing a heavy dose of atrazine do I still need to do a treatment of gly? Does atrazine only work as a pre-emergent? Thanks for the help!

Atrazine is not very effective as a post emergence herbicide so that's why adding gly is more effective to kill existing vegetation and then the atrazine will help keep weeds seeds from germinating.

Keep in mind here that atrazine is only safe on Big Bluestem and switchgrass so can NOT be used on a NWSG mix containing Indiangrass and Little Bluestem ;)

showstopper

03-21-2012, 05:50 PM

Thanks, I posted in the wrong title as I am talking about my frost seeded switchgrass. Thanks for the info, my dad is trying to get me to skip on spraying both gly and atrazine altogether. I think I have him talked in to doing them in the same mixture so we don't have to clean out the sprayer twice. Is there anything I should know about mixing these two together and spraying in one batch or will this work? Thanks again for the help!

Sligh1

03-21-2012, 08:25 PM

U can mix Atrazine & Round-up together with no issues. with the low cost of Round-up & extra insurance, I like putting it on heavy. Like 2 qts + to acre & depending on what I'm doing/timing/killing. Heck, 2 qts to acre is $5/acre! Can't beat that! I also put the max of Atrazine on as well. If your state allows it, I'd do 4 qts of Atrazine per acre. Mix em together and get going. Keep in mind that u will want to circulate your tank & keep it agitated, Atrazine is sticky & goopie stuff, make sure it's mixed really well and you keep agitating it of course.

showstopper

03-21-2012, 08:44 PM

Good to know. Thanks again Sligh!

huntyak

03-21-2012, 08:58 PM

Sligh1

03-22-2012, 06:19 AM

What effect does Atrazine have on success rates of first year stands vs no -atrazine? Is it night and day or just " a little" better per any of your experience?

I am more curious than anything as we are establishing some SG and will have it put on but curious as to your results through the years or what you have seen. Thanks :way:

Huge difference!!! If you look WAY back on this thread, Dbltree took some pics of my 1st year switch that was chest high, etc. I put the Atrazine on as heavy as I could. If a guy didn't use atrazine, would want to keep it mowed & also would have a lot of weeds in there. 2nd year probably would be decent/good stand depending on how well you kept up with mowing & weeds. In EITHER case you want to watch for foxtail as well- in the case of foxtail with Atrazine, it USUALLY comes in (from what I've seen) when a guy hasn't put enough Atrazine down BUT sometimes it's just a problem anyways, which you can spray the Foxtail with other herbicides. Dbltree may have some things to add, etc but that's been my experience/thoughts.

dbltree

03-22-2012, 06:28 AM

As Skip mentions...controlling weed competition the first year can mean having a head high stand the first year versus waiting three years for it to reach that point.

The only problem with atrazine or simazine is that they are not very effective on trash covered surfaces, so clean mowed surfaces will have better weed control.

If foxtail still becomes a problem, use Drive 75 or Paramount (same product) post emergence to kill the foxtail. See first page of this thread for more herbicide details...;)

huntyak

03-22-2012, 07:59 PM

Thanks Paul and Skip...very helpful :way:

jerred44

03-22-2012, 08:02 PM

How many years will NWSG usually last?

LoessHillsArcher

03-22-2012, 08:49 PM

How many years will NWSG usually last?

Properly taken care of should last forever! :D Prairie likes fire... most natural way to manage a NWSG stand.

Sligh1

03-22-2012, 10:42 PM

I was talking with Osenbaugh the other day- he was referring to big blue stem as a "100 year grass" - as in a plant will live 100 yrs if taken care of and on good conditions. Of course above is right that it'll last forever if properly maintained because of reseeding itself. Soil types and sites are major factors though, obviously. Osenbaugh also mentioned Indian grass only living 5 years if not on ideal spots. He claimed u want clay and if it's planted on black soil (great for most others) it will last about 5 yrs. he of course has a lot more information, experience and specifics on all that. Paraphrasing.

panthers77

03-26-2012, 11:36 AM

Daver

03-26-2012, 02:04 PM

The CRP ground I have is covered in Canary Grass and is matted down. I plan on putting the fields in a 3 yr rotation. I am going to strip disc a third to half the burned ground to release weeds and promote growth and leave the other half. I've thought about mowing part as well and running a drag harrow through it. Is there anything else I could do?
Feel that anything other than bare ground is better than the current situation. Also the farm is in Monroe County, should I wait to weeks to burn to promote the warm season grasses??
Thanks for the help!

I tried, but couldn't start, a burn this weekend in mostly brome grass, so if you wait much longer you may not be able to burn this year. It was a bit wet, but things are greening up fast in brome fields now. For warm season grasses, yes, you do want to burn them later, but if you have cool season grasses established now you probably cannot get a burn going 2 weeks from now.

My CRP was predominantly brome, cool season, but over time I have morphed it some to a weird mix of both brome and switch with various "others" mixed in. One tactic is to spray Roundup on the switch about this time of the year to kill it off some, but not a complete 100% kill. This will set the brome back and let various seeds already in the soil bank take hold. (Repeating this process now a couple of times is essentially how I ended up with my weird mix. I have also deliberately frost seeded switch in selected areas in the otherwise brome dominated field.)

Guys I know that did the light disking technique have regretted it later because the field is rough walking. Doing that will release other seeds already present, but could leave a rougher walk than what you want.

I would consider the spraying method if I were you unless you have a lot of volunteer trees in the field, those can be rough on sprayers.

panthers77

03-26-2012, 03:51 PM

Thanks for the help, I will try burning this weekend and if it doesn't work I will give the round-up a go. I don't plan on walking the fields too much and would probably cultipack afterwards if I do a light disc. I may try spraying some and discing some to compare.
I thought about frost seeding as well but the CRP contract is up in two years so I hope to reseed it in Switchgrass then.