Alfalfa

[dbltree]

Most of you have already read the QDMA article on alfalfa: QDMA Alfalfa article (http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=61)

Canada QDM aticle (http://www.qdmacanada.com/anglais/articles/food_plots/The_Alfalfa_Challenge.htm)

Description and Adaptation of Alfalfa (http://www.umass.edu/cdl/publications/Alfadapt.htm)

Alfalfa University (http://www.americasalfalfa.com/AlfalfaUniversity/default.aspx)

It's not for everyone but it's one of my favorites. I spent the first 1/2 of my life milking 130 cows (and the second 1/2 doing something I could actually make a living at so alfalfa is something that I'm very familiar with. As a dairyman you learn gow to squeeze every bit of protein out of a crop as is possible, and you learn what the most efficient and effective way to plant it and maintain it. Clover has many of the same attributes and works better on heavier poorly drained soils.

I find that deer are drawn to alfalfa well into December here in SE Iowa and alfalfa tends to be longer lived then clover. As the article states it's best if you can mow it (you cant just plant it and forget it it) and it's not best in very small plots that would get hammered to hard.

August seedings are the very best for seeding both alfalfa and clover. One can prepare a good seedbed, wait for a an upcoming rain and seed just ahead of it. Roll the seedbed so it's firm, broadcast the seed, and just re-roll it (don't drag it in).
Many spring seeding become over run with weeds and may require spraying or clipping to control, while fall seedings...frost will do the "weeding" for you

If you absolutley must spring seed...an age old method is to use oats for a cover crop as my renter did on our place this year. He will bale the oats green, which will also remove weed cover and leave the alfalfa seedlings free to take off on thier own in late summer.

If you cannot remove the oats...your better off to plan on herbicides such as Select 2-EC (clethodim) and 2-4DB on a spring seeding.

Germination takes roughly 10-15 days as explained in this link. Alfalfa germination (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/hay/r648w.htm)

Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=1&org=0) is a great source for alfalfa seed.

Sow alfalfa at 15-20#'s per acre generally like clover seed, till, cultipack, broadcast seed and re-cultipack to cover just pressing the seed into the soil.

PH is important so be sure to soil test and add lime, P&K per the test and work it into the soil before planting.

Alfalfa can grow on a wide range of soils but it will grow on lighter sandy loam soils that clover will not. Alfalfa has long tap roots that can extend 12-15 feet deep making it very drought resistant.

Alfalfa is one of the highest in protien and digestable protien making it very attractive to deer and a valuable income source where it can be sold as a hay crop.

Here's few shots of our new alfalfa seeding
This is a hidden field (A.K.A. Honey Hole)
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Alfalfa_2006.jpg

In both pics you may be able to see the "edge feathering" I did in March. Some trees died but others that I 1/2 cut have leafed out. I formed a "fence" along the edge of the field to force deer to use only two runways to the field

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Edge_feathering.jpg

Baby alfalfa about a month old coming up with the oats...this fall this field will be sweeeetttt /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/513/medium/771Baby_alfalfa.jpg

[SaskGuy]

Being from a place where alfalfa is basically the only forage for the deer besides browse I'd say "good choice". Though frosts have whacked it before mid Oct. here most years it still draws the deer all winter. I see that the oats as a cover crop is the same choice 1500 miles apart.

[dbltree]

Quote:
I plan on putting some in around the later part of the summer...about an acre and a half



That's the best time to put it in IMO Shredder

Here's a couple recent pics...


This is a spot where the oats are thinner...and dah...the alfalfa is thicker

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaandOats2.jpg

Here the otas are much thicker and taller and the alfalfa is thinner and struggles more to compete.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfafaandOats.jpg

A clear summer seeding of alfalfa or clover doesn't have to compete with anything and will still be just right for your fall food plot!

[dbltree]

Few more pics of our alfalfa seeding after the oats were cut and baled green in late July.

Few broadleaves and some foxtail coming up now but if it keeps raining it can be mowed and baled one more time. Then cold weather will take care of the annual "pests"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaendofJuly.jpg

Lot of high quality, high protien feed...don't get no better!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaseedingJuly24.jpg

It's possible we might see a deer or two in this field long about late October...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfaseeding2.jpg

I might add that right now is a perfect time to establish alfalfa in a clear seeding...and it will be just right for attracting deer this fall and turkeys in the spring

[dbltree]

Here's a link to info on planting Alfagraze:

Alfagraze (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=17)

This is our spring planted alfalfa after a second cutting. It's lush, and covered up with deer, however it's being harvested for hay. It's much easier to manage with almost no hassle on my part.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/EarlySeptAlfalfa.jpg


I rent it for hay and all I have to do is hunt /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

If you can't manage alfalfa in this way however, clover might be a better option because the alfalfa will get way to tall, heavy and rank with out constant mowing.

Planting a very small plot with heavy deer densities might be an option, otherwise larger plots are better off being "farmed".

White/ladino clovers do not get nearly as tall as alfalfa making them easier to manage if one is unable to harvest it for hay. Each has pros and cons depending on your situation.

Clover Post (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QDM&Number=143147&fpart=&P HPSESSID=)

[dbltree]

Even with all the freshly combined grain fields...the deer are still in our alfalfa daily. The cold weather hasn't affected it yet and they don't pass up a chance at high quality protein! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DeerinAlfalfa.jpg

It normally stays green and attractive to deer well into shotgun season:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MidOctalfalfa-1.jpg

Mighty tender and tasty vittles there:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tenderalfalfa.jpg

[dbltree]

I know that RR alfalfa can yield much more in commercial operations, but I think the jury is still out on the benifits versus cost for foodplots.

Well planted alfalfa seedings can last for years out competing weeds and grasses, and even then an application of Poast Plus will clean it up.

I haven't priced RR alfalfa but according some of these links it's about $6 a # or more then double conventional alfalfa seed


Here's a few links to RR alfalfa and alfalfa in general:


America's Alfalfa (http://www.americasalfalfa.com/)

FSG 425RR ALFALFA (http://www.dftseed.com/agricultural/alfalfa.php)

Truth about RR Alfalfa (http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=5356)

Uising RR Alfalfa in Iowa (http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/2006/4-3/tolerant.html)

Comparing RR to conventional alfalfa (http://www.greatlakeshybrids.com/wp-content/uploads/RRAlfalfaSiteSeller_EMWE.pdf#search='alfalfa%20see d%20for%20sale%20roundup%20ready')

Alfalfa Varieties (http://www.alfalfa.org/pdf/2006%20Final%20Variety%20Leaflet.pdf)

Remember to inoculate!! (http://alfalfa.okstate.edu/pub/stand-949/seed.htm)

[mole]

We planted RR this year and we have seen no difference. In fact we added some more hay ground this fall and chose to interseed with wheat instead of RR due to our less than positive expeience with the RR alfalfa.

I don't remember what the coast was, but it does leave a pretty good dent in the pocketbook.

mole

[dbltree]

November is nearly over and my alfalfa is still sucking deer in like crazy!

It's full when I pull in the field in the morning and full when I leave at night! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I'm sure clover may be doing equally as well but my clover plots are not easily accessed during hunting season.

I have some new clover seedings next to the alfalfa to better compare next year.

Even though we have had some record lows this fall, it stays green and tender:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nov22Alfalfa.jpg

There is almost always deer feeding in it:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Feedinginthehay-1.jpg

Plenty of corn stubble nearby but they are always in the alfalfa:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfainNov.jpg

Eventually it's going to freeze out but by the time it is done...my freezer will be full!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Novalfalfa.jpg

[dbltree]

I plan to frost seed with some type of clover. Any suggestions????



I prefer just about any type of white clover, which includes Jumbo Ladino Clover.

Red clover is very easy to frost seed but it get's rank unless you keep it mowed (or baled would be better)

Whites don't get as tall or rank and are better suited for grazing. Very easy to frost seed into your alfalfa.

Welters has a great selection and all pre-inoculated as well. They will ship small orders even if it's listed as a 50# bag only.

Good chance you might be able to split an order with someone in your area...

Give either alfalfa or clover a shot of 6-24-24 in late winter/early spring. 200-300#'s per acre will do the trick.

Welters Clover Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Don't forget to lime if it needs it :)

[dbltree]

The alfalfa is shrinking low after the deep freeze earlier

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12alfalfa-1.jpg

There is still some "tender vittles" there though and I expect the deer will keep nibbling at it until it's completely froze out.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Decalfalfa-1.jpg

Compare to Clover (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=140565&fpart=14) this time of year.

[dbltree]

I walked out Jan. 10th from hunting the last day of the late season and the alfalfa field was still full of deer /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Unlike clover the base of the alfalfa plant or crown, stays green late into winter and attracts deer because of this trait.

Alfalfa doesn't frost seed very well so it's better to plan a spring or late summer planting.

It can be clear seeded and weeds held at bay with herbicides or planted with oats.

When spring planting with oats you can spray with Poast Plus or Select after the oats are a foot high or so.

This will slowly kill the oats along with grasses and leave a great mulch to conserve moisture and a great growing medium for the seedling alfalfa.

Great info for Alfalfa Establishment (http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/fg/management/2004/alfalfa/)

Check the Clover (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=143147&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1) thread for planting "how to's".

Remember to soil test and get lime applied this winter in preperartion for this years planting.

Plant 15-20#'s of seed per acre in a well prepared firm seedbed. Pack, plant and re-pack.

Don't forget inoculant (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208) !!

Unless your planting for hay production (perhaps the best management option if you have enough acreage...) use a grazing variety of alfalfa.

Alfagraze Alfalfa (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=17)

Grazer Brand Alfalfa (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=18)

Imperial Alfa-Rack (http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/products/alfap/)

You can also add Chicory (http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/uc116.pdf) to your alfalfa planting.

Oasis Forage Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=319)

Check the herbicide (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=176924&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) section for more info and sources,
but if your unable to control weeds and grasses by clipping your alfalfa you may need to use herbicides.

Apply Butyrac 200 at 2-4 pints per acre ($8-18 per acre costs) to control broadleaf weeds.

Butyrac 200 (http://www.albaughinc.com/pd_butyrac_200.htm)

Apply Poast Plus (http://www.igin.com/chemicals/PDF/poastplus.pdf) at .5 to 1.5 pints per acre ($5 -15 per acre costs) to control grasses. Remember to include crop oil with Poast.

Rates per acre: Poast rates (http://ohioline.osu.edu/weeds/weeds_165.html)


Select 2 EC herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld67N004.pdf) is a grass control herbicide for use in clover and alfalfa. 4-8 oz./$5-15 per acre. Available in one gallon at approx. $160 per gallon.

Planting is a ways off...but planning ahead will help ensure a great alfalfa stand

[nannyslayer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I plan to frost seed with some type of clover. Any suggestions???? </div></div>

I prefer just about any type of white clover, which includes Jumbo Ladino Clover. </div></div> Ladino is a great clover, also try Imperial Whitetail clover. Alot of people will swear they are the same, but we have a 30 acre clover field, with a 3 acre foot plot in the corner planted with Imperial whitetail. The deer will walk through the ladino to get to the Imperial.

[dbltree]

Perfect weather to frost seed right now with the snow gone so I decided to frost seed some chicory into my alfalfa.

Used a small hand seeder set on 2

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingSupplies-1.jpg

Seed is a little bulkier then clover:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeed.jpg

The soil is froze in the morning and thawing in the afternoon now and there is plenty of bare soil for good seed/soil contact.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chicoryintoalfalfa.jpg

Little residue as possible helps:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frostseedingintoalfalfa.jpg

Little patch of snow along the edge so I made a pass just to see how thick i was putting it on:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeedonsnow.jpg

I used Oasis Forage Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=319) 3-4# per acre at $6.20 a #

Puna Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=77) is another well known, often used chicory.

Here is some info on Forage Chicory (http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/uc116.pdf)

One main concern is to keep chicory mowed so that it doesn't grow stems and start to bolt.

Clipping every 25 days or less will help.

Chicory has many positives including being somewhat drought resistant.

Growing Chicory (http://www.farminfo.org/forage/chicory.htm)

OASIS FORAGE CHICORY at Cooper Seeds (http://www.cooperseeds.com/catalog/oasis-forage-chicory-p1091.html)

Barenbrug Forage Chicory Varieties (http://www.barusa.com/Products_Forage/Chicory.htm)

ABOUT CHICORY (http://www.modernforage.com/forfeast.htm)

Chicory (http://www.forages.psu.edu/topics/species_variety_trials/species/chicory/index.html)

[dbltree]

Alfalfa out lasted everything I had last fall and it's been up and growing for a week now. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My clover is barely peaking thru (although it won't be far behind)

Deer have been filling my alfalfa nightly already...and why not when it looks like a nice fresh salad after a long winter!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LateMarchAlflafa.jpg

Not bad for March and some high quality forage deer can resist!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/March23alflafa.jpg

Alfalfa - 61% TDN 19% CP

[FarmlandQDM]

Nice looking plot Paul ... if you show us how to grow alfalfa like yours we'll teach you how to play with fire ... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice looking plot Paul ... if you show us how to grow alfalfa like yours we'll teach you how to play with fire ... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

I don't need help playing with fire Rob...it's learning how NOT to burn several square miles while I'm "playing" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

[dbltree]

This is a shot of my alfalfa April 1st!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-01Alfalfa.jpg

Alfalfa grows so fast and thick that it can be difficult for a small food plotter to manage.

It's one of my favorites but a pure stand is better managed for hay which gives the landowner both income ($80 per acre average rent) and no need to have to clip the field constantly.

Looking at the growth in that pic, one can see that soon it will be a foot high and then what?

If you don't keep it constantly clipped you'll smother it "with itself" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

It's nearly impossible to have deer density high enough to decimate 5-10 acres of good alfalfa but if one has a small plot planting clover or a clover alfalfa mix would easier to manage.

[Shredder]

We'll see how my plot stands up...deer cover the field nightly. I frost seeded clover into it as well and it looks to be coming up effectivly

[huntdoc]

Shredder
Are you planning to harvest your plot or let the deer mow it? I want to watch others results this year before I dive in.

[Shredder]

If the deer don't keep on top of it, I plan on just mowing it mid bloom. I need to reseed some areas with clover again....

[phensway]

Very informational Thread, keep it going along with the clover and rye threads!!! im not from iowa, but this is the most informational site on foodplots that i have been able to find, the pictures help stimulate the mind! thanks for the great advice

[huntdoc]

What is the alfalfa looking like after the snow and cold? Couple fields here had started nice growth and now are brown and wilted.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the alfalfa looking like after the snow and cold? Couple fields here had started nice growth and now are brown and wilted. </div></div>

Never seen the likes of it..ever. Hopefully it will green back up this week.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frozenalfalfa.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frozenalfalfa2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frozealfalfa.jpg

[dbltree]

I'm happy to see that my alfalfa has recovered from the severe freeze and....

the frost seeded chicory is coming up! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeedlings.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeedlings2.jpg

Better check yours pharmer!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chicoryseedlings3.jpg

Check out the pics of chicory and chicory seedling in the clover (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=143147&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=4&amp;vc=1) link.

[nannyslayer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm happy to see that my alfalfa has recovered from the severe freeze and....

the frost seeded chicory is coming up! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeedlings.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeedlings2.jpg

Better check yours pharmer!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chicoryseedlings3.jpg

Check out the pics of chicory and chicory seedling in the clover (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=143147&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=4&amp;vc=1) link. </div></div>

Was going to ask you how your alfalfa was looking. Alot of guys ripped their fields due to what Iowa state had to say. We recommended that guys harrow their alfalfa. A few did it, and it bounced back and looks just like it did before the freeze.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was going to ask you how your alfalfa was looking. Alot of guys ripped their fields due to what Iowa state had to say. We recommended that guys harrow their alfalfa. A few did it, and it bounced back and looks just like it did before the freeze.
</div></div>

That's good info although I hope we don't get another freeze that late for awhile!

Ours looks a little ragged but it's higher then before the freeze now.

[dbltree]

The alfalfa is recovering pretty well although I don't think it will look that great until second cutting:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/May18alflafa.jpg

Few shots of the frost seeded chicory:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chicorynalfalfa.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chicoryinalfalfa3.jpg

It's better where the alfalfa is not as thick or in bare spots and I have no idea if deer will even eat it with all the lush alfalfa:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Chicnalfalfa2.jpg

This is just a shot of a strip of white clover in the alfalfa...easy to see how much shorter the clover is which makes it eaiser to mangage if one is not harvesting the alfalfa for hay:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Whitecloverinalfalfa.jpg

Deer use my alfalfa nearly year around...it's a sure bet if it fits into your habitat management program /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[petherss]

Dbltree- Those plots look awesome! Wish I had about 5 more acres to play with. Anyways, a question for ya....I have heard that alfalfa struggles the first year. That it takes really a couple years for it to come into its own. WHAT IF I interseed alfalfa with my brassicas this year? Too much canopy competition for the alfalfa? I plan on planting some sort of combination of brassica/rye/alfalfa. Whether that be a separate plot of brassica, then another with rye/alfalfa, i'm not sure. Just thought maybe the canopy from the brassicas might shade out the weeds enough for the alfalfa to come up a bit better. Of course if I'm planting in the fall, weed competition is less than it is right now anyways. Thanks!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dbltree- Those plots look awesome! Wish I had about 5 more acres to play with. Anyways, a question for ya....I have heard that alfalfa struggles the first year. That it takes really a couple years for it to come into its own. WHAT IF I interseed alfalfa with my brassicas this year? Too much canopy competition for the alfalfa? I plan on planting some sort of combination of brassica/rye/alfalfa. Whether that be a separate plot of brassica, then another with rye/alfalfa, i'm not sure. Just thought maybe the canopy from the brassicas might shade out the weeds enough for the alfalfa to come up a bit better. Of course if I'm planting in the fall, weed competition is less than it is right now anyways. Thanks! </div></div>

Weeds are really not a concern in late summer planted clover or alfalfa. If you killed the sod grasses first with roundup then all that normally comes up are a few broadleaves.

They aren't a problem because fall frosts will eliminate them.

I don't care for seeding clover or alfalfa with brassicas because they are often too much shade and if deer root the turnip bulbs up in late winter...they can destroy your new seeding.

I prefer to plant with oats in early August which gives you a nice early fall foodplot while the alfalfa is still very small.

Frosts will kill the oats and weeds and leave a nice mulch for your new seeding.

The following year the new alfalfa will grow faster then deer can eat it! (assuming you lime and fertilize before planting)

[dbltree]

How can a deer resist 4th cutting alfalfa?? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/4thCuttingalfalfa.jpg

Stuff almost makes me hungry... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Anybody give alfalfa a try this year?

Alfalfa production (http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/alfalfa_guide_production.pdf)

Alfalfa managment (http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/alfalfa_guide_establishment.pdf)

[petherss]

dbltree- It looks like my rye is smothering the alfalfa/clover mix I planted in early August. Hope it doesn't kill it totally, but maybe I can frost seed to fill it in?? Oh well, live and learn. Great looking plot by the way!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It looks like my rye is smothering the alfalfa/clover mix I planted in early August. Hope it doesn't kill it totally, but maybe I can frost seed to fill it in?? </div></div>

That's pretty early to be planting fall grains with alfalfa. Most likely better off without the rye but I don't know that it will smother it either.

Let us know how it works out either way.

You can frost seed clover of course but not alfalfa.

[dbltree]

I'm always amazed at how well alfalfa does almost year around. Hard frosts and it's early November and my alfalfa is still lush and green:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NovemberAlfalfa.jpg

I can hardly hunt stands near my alfalfa in the morning because it is literally covered up with deer!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NovemberAlfalfa2.jpg

One of my trail cams is on a runway going to alfalfa and it is always loaded with pics.

When you consider that alfalfa is one of the longest lived of all the possibles that one can plant for a food plot, contains some of the highest protein levels and lasts nearly all season...it's hard not to consider it. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Even with all the snow and bad weather, the deer have been feeding on the alfalfa:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Snowedinalfalfa.jpg

They are digging thru the snow and eating the still green areas toward the soil surface:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LateDecalfalfa.jpg

My clover is gone, dead, kaput for the year but my alfalfa is still "working":

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChristmasAlfalfa.jpg

Of course alfalfa is to difficult to manage unless you can harvest it for hay...out of the question for the average landowner (farmers notwithstanding)

The feeding hay (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=243394#Post243394) thread brings up the value of good alfalfa hay these days and Tight supplies to support alfalfa prices through 2010 (http://www.iowafarmertoday.com/articles/2007/11/26/top_stories/03alfalfa.txt) are forecast which should be enough for some to consider alfalfa if they have land to rent and a farmer who could harvest it on shares perhaps.

3-5 tons per acre are easily attainable with proper fertility and at $130 a ton it's worth looking into if you wish to have income and a great all season draw for your whitetails.

Southern, eastern and NE Iowa are areas where farmers feed cattle and commonly grow alfalfa. A little asking around would no doubt yield a farmer interested in 10 or more acres of alfalfa. Dividing your rental ground into 1/3rds to have corn, alfalfa and soybeans would be a hard to beat combo! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Alfalfa Establishment Guide (http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/fg/management/2004/alfalfa/)

Alfalfa Management (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/hay/r571-1.htm)

Alfalfa Analyst (http://www.alfalfa.org/pdf/AlfalfaAnalyst.pdf)

Sustainable Alfalfa (http://www.hbci.com/~cmills/SUST%20ALFALFA%20YIELDS.html)

If I had one of these (http://www.newholland.com/h4/products/products_series_detail.asp?Reg=NA&RL=ENNA&NavID=000001277003&series=8096311) I'd bale my own hay! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can a deer resist 4th cutting alfalfa?? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/4thCuttingalfalfa.jpg

Stuff almost makes me hungry... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Anybody give alfalfa a try this year?

Alfalfa production (http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/alfalfa_guide_production.pdf)

Alfalfa managment (http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/alfalfa_guide_establishment.pdf) </div></div>

I actually tried some of ours this year and it isn't bad, could use some dressing though.

[huntyak]

Does anyone know how much one can get per acre from alfalfa? I pulled some of my crops this spring to plant alfalfa and am wondering how much the average is to have somebody come in and bale it? I posted on another forum site but thoght it might be missed. Thanks.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know how much one can get per acre from alfalfa? I pulled some of my crops this spring to plant alfalfa and am wondering how much the average is to have somebody come in and bale it? I posted on another forum site but thoght it might be missed. Thanks. </div></div>

Right now alfalfa is selling for $80-130 a ton and often you can get someone to put it up on 50-50 shares. You provide all the inputs such as land, planting and maintaning the alfalfa and someone else puts up the hay, providing the equipment and labor.

Yields can run from 3-5 ton per acre which of course varies widely depending on soil and weather conditions.

You can also just hire all the work done if you have storage for the hay. The large 700-800# bales are becoming more popular but you need a tractor to load them for buyers. Lot's of possibles if you can enter into a working relationship with someone with equipment and storage.

[huntyak]

I'll look into it and thanks dbltree for all the great advice and input!

[northwoods whitetails]

i have a 1 1/2 acre field that butts up to 3 acres of clover. i am thinking about putting it in alfalfa. a few queations i have are.
is there a certain type of alfalfa better for strictaly grazing
is there a herbacide to kill broadleaf weeds but won't hurt the alfalfa
is the protien content equal to or better than clover
a
i will be doing a spring planting with the oat cover crop (what would the best seed rates be)
thanks for any and all help...waiting for twenty two inches of snow to melt so i can shed hunt then fire up the tractor

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: u.p. bowhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have a 1 1/2 acre field that butts up to 3 acres of clover. i am thinking about putting it in alfalfa. a few queations i have are.
is there a certain type of alfalfa better for strictaly grazing
is there a herbacide to kill broadleaf weeds but won't hurt the alfalfa
is the protien content equal to or better than clover
a
i will be doing a spring planting with the oat cover crop (what would the best seed rates be)
thanks for any and all help...waiting for twenty two inches of snow to melt so i can shed hunt then fire up the tractor </div></div>

Here is some good information that should answer some of your questions: Grazer Alfalfa (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=18)

Cover crop oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=261)

There are other grazing type alfalfas and almost any alfalfa will be attractive to deer, just remember the management problems that go along with alfalfa versus clover.

Alfalfa is much easier to manage when it can be harvested for hay because it gets so much taller and clipping it can cause smothering.

Clover and alflafa have very comparable protein but alfalfa has the advantage of being available much later in the season.

Of course 22 inches of snow may negate that advantage! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

2-4DB is a broadleaf herbicide safe for alfalfa and clover.

[dbltree]

This alfalfa really sounds interesting! It's a yellow leaf alfalfa brought from the Siberian plains that can be used as a "one or two cut" alfalfa.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/falcataalfalfa.jpg

It's fine leaved and well suited for grazing, can be mowed very late in the summer making great for pheasant habitat and they graze cattle on it in January!

Wind River sells the seed in Wyoming so I'm contacting them about some seed. Sounds like it's 4 bucks and some change a pound.

They have been interseeding it on rangeland so it must be pretty adaptable and ISU has been testing it for some time as well so obviously it will grow here in Iowa.

I think it's worthy of testing...check it out!

Falcata alfalfa seed (http://www.falcataseed.com/)

Two-Cut Alfalfa (http://hayandforage.com/hay/alfalfa/two-cut-alfalfa/)

Flowering Alfalfa Breaks Barriers (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct03/alfalfa1003.htm)

any thoughts nannyslayer??

[nannyslayer]

Interesting, especially that it says that it is "successfully grazed in the winter." It would be very interesting to see how it would handle the type of soils we have around here in Iowa. Looks like it would definilty be drought tolerant, and handle the cold weather, so I'd say give it a shot. But dang 4 bucks a lb /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[SaskGuy]

This is a great thread, super informative. If I had a food source to put $ on here, early season anyways, alfalfa all the way! By the way, 4th cutting of alfalfa???? Here we're lucky if we can get 2.

[huntdoc]

How appealing or how much protein does early season alfalfa have? Some nice looking fields coming up in my area but the deer seem to still be focused on picked corn fields.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How appealing or how much protein does early season alfalfa have? </div></div>

Alfalfa is one of the highest in protein of anything available at 18 to 25% CP depending how and when it is tested. Clover may be slightly higher but one is splitting hairs so to speak when it comes to testing forages.

Alfalfa as a Protein Source (http://forages.oregonstate.edu/is/ais/enfpmain.cfm?PageID=245#table1)

At times deer will be looking for energy like that from corn and picked corn fields will still have some "pickings" early in the spring before "green" forage starts growing. Thats why diversity in our food plots is important.

Alfalfa and corn are hard to beat and alfalfa is generally available earlier and later then clover. As this thread has mentioned alfalfa is not for everyone but it does have some very specific advantages.

Wind River got back with me on the Falcata seed, it's $4.05 a # with a $50 min. order. She said they have shipped plenty of seed to Iowa and had never had a complaint about it not thriving or doing well.

That being said I think I'll place an order tommorrow..if anyone is interested in a few pounds PM me and I'll just order extra. The problems inherit with alfalfa in a small plot it would appear may not be with Falcata so it seems worth testing. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

This is some 3 year old alfalfa at our place here in early May...some amazing growth compared to other possibles this early in the spring. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/May708Alfalfa.jpg

I've mentioned often how deer love alfalfa from early spring right into very late winter, it can last for years if properly established and can provide an income for those that can either harvest it or rent it out.

The question is this...can we manage alfalfa as a food plot only, since it does put on such fantastic growth? You can see by the picture...I would need to mow it already.

I wanted to compare alfalfa to clover and try the dryland Falcata alfalfa as well so I planted each in blocks roughly 1/4-1/2 acre each where I can moniter each for usage by deer and see how difficult each is to maintain.

I planted some Dekalb alflafa that nannyslayer brought over...he promised me monster bucks or a steak dinner with this alfalfa (least wise that's the way I heard it... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )

Brian carries some great forage seed so give him a shout if anywhere near his area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DekalbAlfalfa.jpg

I mixed some Berseem Clover with one plot.. http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BerseemClover-1.jpg

just because it's fast growing and inexpensive at $1.64 a pound...it is an annual but germinates quickly while other crops are getting established.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BerseemCloverSeed.jpg

other plots I mixed some red clover that Brian also carries...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCarpetClover.jpg

again, just get some faster growth along with the alfalfa and it will eventually die out leaving the alfalfa long term.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCloverseed.jpg

Other plots I planted the Falcata dryland "yellow blossom" alfalfa to compare it and give it a try since it is a one cut alfalfa with late winter grazing advantages.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataAlflafa.jpg

It may not do well here but I'm only out 50 bucks if it doesn't fly... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataAlfalfaSeed.jpg

We tilled and cultipacked...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Packinground.jpg

Then broadcast some of nannyslayers forage oats...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ForageOats.jpg

at roughly 50-80#'s per acre

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Spreader.jpg

Then we seeded the alflafa by hand with a small hand seeder at 18-20#'s per acre. I believe everything was pre-inoculated but I added fresh inoculate just to be safe an then re-packed to just cover the seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CultipackedGround.jpg

Remember alfalfa seed is very tiny...don't bury it! Always cultipack or roll the ground before seeding and then pack it to cover the seed. It should be just pressed into the top of the soil, not buried like larger grains.

My soil had great soil fertility because I have built it up over time and removed nothing but a few hundred pounds of venison! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Alfalfa is a legume so no nitrogen is needed but potash (potassium) and phosphorus may be required depending on your soil test.

Potash (http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/potash/)

Phosphorus and Potassium (http://ohioline.osu.edu/b760/b760_4.html)

PH should be about 6.8 and again mine was already fine. otherwise apply lime the fall or winter before if at all possible to give it time to work.

I will moniter the oats and weeds and clip later as needed. The oats are acting as a "nurse crop" to inhibit weed growth and provide some forage while the alfalfa seedings .

I'll keep you posted and compare the different alfalfas along with clover and other crops and see how each pans out. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

Paul, hope everything works out great for the plots. Another thing to add is the Red carpet clover seems to "live' a little longer than it is exspected to. Alot of people use it as a hay crop, so clipping it a few times through the summer may be the key. Another plus is, it has the inoculant coated on the seed. Red carpet is what I use for plots, and the deer seem to clean it up. This year, I had clover up until the "thaw" (do to an early ice)

As for the steak, I'll bring it, but you have to cook it /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> it has the inoculant coated on the seed </div></div>

I did forget to mention that... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Inoculant-1.jpg

This rain ought to make things "pop"! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

My alfalfa seeding is coming up very nicely! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

June 1st (seeded first week in May) alfalfa from nannyslayer...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa6-01.jpg

Seeded with forage oats from nannyslayer and planted next to clover plots to eventually compare the pros and cons of each.

I also planted test plots of Falcata Alfalfa and a strip of it all the way around the field.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Falcataalfalfanoats.jpg

There is Berseem clover mixed in with it so it is a little difficult identifying it at this point. In this pic some of the berseem is obvious...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Falcataalflafa-1.jpg

The Falcata is not an improved strain, somthing that is being worked on of course but right now the only seed that is available is just grown from original seed brought here years ago.

A ranch in Wyoming is the only grower that I am aware of and they warned me that this alfalfa will have no resistance to disease or insects while nannyslayers conventional alfalfa has all of those attributes.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Falcataalfalfaandberseemclover.jpg

At any rate I'm interested to see how this dryland/rangeland one cut, winter hardy alfalfa will do..or if it will do anything at all.

The yellow blossoms should give it away if it grows...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/falcataalfalfa.jpg

They have shipped plenty of seed to Iowa with no complaints so that's all I have to go on.

Stay tuned... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

Looks good /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

What are your plans with the alfalfa and oat mix? Are you going to clip the oats or are you going to spray them? Just wondering, alot of people don't have oat/alfalfa mix that looks that good right now for hay.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nannyslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks good /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

What are your plans with the alfalfa and oat mix? Are you going to clip the oats or are you going to spray them? Just wondering, alot of people don't have oat/alfalfa mix that looks that good right now for hay. </div></div>

Right now it's wait and see...clipping being cheaper then spraying of course. I just have to make sure it doesn't get to heavy before clipping.

New alfalfa and oats at the right stage make some pretty nice hay...something that might just be in short supply this year... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[fullrut2]

man,
I would love some of that forage alfalfa! I could plant 20 acres of it and have someone cut and bail it for me.
where do you get the forage variety?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fullrut2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">man,
I would love some of that forage alfalfa! I could plant 20 acres of it and have someone cut and bail it for me.
where do you get the forage variety? </div></div>

The Dekalb alfalfa seed I planted came from nannyslayer and he could sure fix you up with some...just shoot him a PM for more info.


If you have ground that can be hayed I would urge you to consider conventional alfalfa seed. Hay is going to be a premium and if you can find a farmer to take it off on shares you can have "your cake and eat it too"!!

What a deal to not have to maintain a foodplot that will draw deer into very late winter, that can yield some high returns, that someone else can do the mowing and spraying and that can last perhaps longer then any other plot that you could possibly plant.

I have seen all types of foodplots fail or be eaten to the ground long before season...but never alfalfa. Even an acre field can take a pounding, produce 3-4 cuttings of hay and still be drawing deer in January! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I took this pic of deer feeding in my alfalfa in November...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfainNov.jpg

The rangeland alfalfa I would discourage anyone from trying it until I see how it does. It may just not do so well here...there is a huge difference between the dry rangeland of Wyoming or North Dakota and the humid and often wet farmland of Iowa, MO and ILL.

Disease may be a huge problem...or not...I just don't know, but I hope to find out! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Falcata alfalfa seed (http://www.falcataseed.com/)

[Sligh1]

QUESTION- either clover or Alf-alfa, I get mixed opinions on whether to mix in oats for a quick cover crop (spring planting obviously) to beat the weeds and mow later. What do you recommend, oats mixed in OR just the clover/alf-alfa seed. Are there ups and downs to both?
*Co-op told me a couple months ago to go without oats, that's why I ask.

[fullrut2]

thanks tree..I hope to plant some this sept.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">QUESTION- either clover or Alf-alfa, I get mixed opinions on whether to mix in oats for a quick cover crop (spring planting obviously) to beat the weeds and mow later. What do you recommend, oats mixed in OR just the clover/alf-alfa seed. Are there ups and downs to both?
*Co-op told me a couple months ago to go without oats, that's why I ask. </div></div>

OATS ARE OPTIONAL! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Using oats for a nurse crop is and age old method of using something to help supress weeds that could then be harvested, leaving the seedling alfalfa behind.

Now days we have herbicides and other options so oats are no longer needed but the do provide a quick food source in the spring for nursing does and bucks with "headgear" in the works!

Why add oats? Why not?

Here's the deal...if you plant alfalfa or clover in late July or early August, you can clear seed them. Any weeds that emerge will be killed at first frost and your good to go.

Spring planted alfalfa or clover will have weed problems that you have to deal with, either by spraying or clipping and oats can help suppress them longer.

Still one has to clip or spray the oats eventually but in the meantime they have provided a quick food source and already your deer will have adapted to coming into your new food plot.

What's not to like? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Oats are cheap and deer love them! If you seed in late August then the oats will serve as a fall food plot that is hard to beat until we get a hard freeze and the next spring your new legumes will hit the ground running!

Oats in no way will hinder your legumes unless you let them get mature and mow them and let them suffocate your new seeding. Clip or spray them before they get that tall...or better yet sell it to a farmer for hay! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

This pic was taken Nov. 2 of oats and clover planted in August. Deer pounded these oats literally into the ground and the next spring the clover did great.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oats11-2.jpg

[huntyak]

Can you plant Rye with clover as a cover or can it only be seeded in the fall by itself?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you plant Rye with clover as a cover or can it only be seeded in the fall by itself? </div></div>

You can seed clover with rye in late August and it works very well.

Alfalfa needs more time before freezing weather to become established, so summer plantings from late July to early August work well.

Severe winters when we have little snow can heave alfalfa crowns, especially on heavy ground. Alfalfa puts down extensive root systems as deep as 15 feet! This allows it to pull moisture and nutrients from deep in the subsoil (this allows it to survive but not thrive as it would if it has proper surface moisture and fertilizer) and is another reason alfalfa can help to build your soil.

It's also a reason why it can be very chancey to plant alfalfa too late in the summer when one would normally plant rye. Clover however can be seeded into September making it a perfect time to use rye or rye and oats along with the clover.

One doesn't really need a "nurse crop" in the fall as frost will take care of any annual broadleaf weeds that come up. The clover however is to tiny to be a food source so adding a cereal grain let's you "kill two birds with one stone"! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

This link will give you all kinds of info on problems alfalfa growers may face, may of which are not a big deal in a food plot situation but great info none the less.

Integrated Crop Management - ISU Alfalfa (http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/taxonomy/term/113)

ISU Alfalfa links (http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/plantpath/alfalfa/)

This link explains summer planting of alfalfa however because it is in Kansas, the dates are a few weeks later in the summer then Iowa.

Summer is Prime Alfalfa Planting Time (http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/news/sty/2003/alfalfa_planting080103.htm)

[TallTines]

I am thinking of planting some alfalfa after reading this thread.

My question is since alfalfa grows so much faster than clover how often would i have to mow it for a food plot?

There will be no baling.

[huntyak]

Can I till my soil and then hand seed before a rain this fall with a clover rye mix?

I am pushing out a fence that will allow a Rye/clover plot in a strip, approx 30 ft wide. On both sides of this strip will be large clover fields.

Will it eventually all be clover if I don't replant the rye next year, as I think this is our goal? Just hoping to add some diversity and a late season draw. Somebody told me the rye would possible spread to the clover but I thought that was 100% false as it should die off without a replanting next year and frequent mowing. Hope I was right in saying that?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Can I till my soil and then hand seed before a rain this fall with a clover rye mix? </div></div>

Sure can, just make sure you use annual field rye and NOT ryegrass!

Field rye if left standing will fall and some seed may germinate not that's not such a bad thing and your new legume will out compete it at that point anyway.

[dbltree]

Update of nannyslayers dekalb alfalfa and red clover seed that I planted in early May.

The red clover really takes off while alfalfa is a little slower getting started. These pics were taken June 28th.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaRedClover6-28.jpg

All of it was seeded with forage oats which the deer have fed heavily on but oats did help keep weed growth at bay...for now.

The alfalfa seedlings are smaller where the oats are heavier but more robust and larger where the oats have been grazed or are thinner.

Even the clover seedlings are smaller but they are just waiting for some sunlight when we mow it all eventually.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfaseedlings.jpg

May plan is to put it up for hay after Aug 1st since CRP has been released for haying and grazing this year. By baling it I won't smother any of it by clipping the oats and weeds but if that wasn't possible I'd want to be clipping the tops off any time now.

Some of the alfalfa I mixed berseem clover rather then red clover. Berseem is a great annual clover option but won't be back next year like the red clover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BerseemClover-2.jpg

I also mixed berseem with the Falcata alflafa which also seems to be coming along nicely.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataalflafanRC.jpg

The falcata "one cut" alfalfa has some great possibles but since it is not an improved alfalfa such as the dekalb alfalfa, it may succumb to disease and insect problems. So far mine seems to be doing fine but will it last??

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataAlfalfa-1.jpg

This pictures shows the "big picture" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

You can see the larger leaves of the red clover, look closely and you'll see the smaller leaves of the alfalfa seedlings, the drak green forage oats and the lighter green foxtail along with a few broadleaf weeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsFalcatanRC.jpg

At this point one could clip or spray with Select herbicide to kill both the oats and foxtail. Broadleaves could be killed with 2-4DB (NOT 2-4D)but clipping the tops off before they go to seed will usually do the trick.

It's nice to have options because one can do alot with a backpack sprayer and herbicide and at the same time one can control many weeds and annual grasses by clipping. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

Looks good /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[TallTines]

If I plant alfalfa late summer this year how much growth can I expect?

The purpose of this plot is to try to give them some green into december and alfalfa in my experience will usually provide feed till mid december.

I already have brassicas on the order list and would like something different here in this food plot.

If the alfalfa won't come up very strong I was thinking of drilling some oats in about a month later after i plant alfalfa. Is this a good idea?

Also I have good PH but how much fertlizer do you think this will need or does it? With fertlizer prices being so high I would really like to avoid it where I can.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TallTines</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I plant alfalfa late summer this year how much growth can I expect?

If the alfalfa won't come up very strong I was thinking of drilling some oats in about a month later after i plant alfalfa. Is this a good idea?

Also I have good PH but how much fertlizer do you think this will need or does it? With fertlizer prices being so high I would really like to avoid it where I can. </div></div>

We normally would clear seed alfalfa in late July which does give you some fall forage. Timing is critical in late summer alfalfa seedings in that the seedlings need time to become established before killing frosts.

In the southern part of Iowa I think you could safely seed alfalfa as late as mid August and then you could include oats to ensure you have a fall food plot.

I'm not sure that drilling oats into the baby alfalfa seedlings would be a good idea, established alfalfa could stand it perhaps but not new seedlings.

It's possible rye could be broadcast ahead of a rain although I have not tried it in alfalfa.

Basically I would consider two options...

Clear seed alfalfa in late July and expect some fall grazing

or

plant with oats in mid August and be assured of feed either way! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Here's a good link on late summer seeding from the University of Wisconsin.


Late Summer seeding of Alfalfa (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/LSAlfalfa.html)

This link from OSU covers the same questions about August seedings and your fertilizer questions as well.

August seeding Alfalfa (http://ohioline.osu.edu/b760/b760_12.html)

It's pretty tough to second guess soil nutrient requirements without a soil test but it's a safe bet that you'll need some P and K or at the very least a few hundred pounds of 6-24-24 (or some such low N mix)

Lime and phosphorus seem to be the two things sorely needed around here but soils vary widely...all the more reason for a soil test. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

This link also seems to suggest that phosphorus is the most important element (beyond soil PH)

Alfalfa in Missouri (http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/crops/g04550.htm)

[dbltree]

2nd Cutting alfalfa is looking good! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/2ndcuttingalfalfa7-5.jpg

Some areas grass is starting to creep in...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GrassinAlfalfa.jpg

and once it starts, it's like a cancer...it just spreads until it takes over.. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Moregrass.jpg

Fortunately we have herbicides like Select and Poast Plus to knock out grasses in legumes, from alfalfa to peas.

I gave some of mine a good does of "what's good for it" the other day /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

About 10 ounces of Select 2-EC

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Select2EC.jpg

Please remember to add 1% v/v crop oil to either Select or Poast.

By now most of you have figured out that Select seems to come out on top as far as effectivness compared to Poast. Runs $130 to 180 a gallon but at 6-8 ounces per acre it will last a while.

Split it with a friend or two to lower the expense but be sure to mark your container well /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

This link has more good information on herbicides for alfalfa:
Managing Weeds in Alfalfa (http://lubbock.tamu.edu/othercrops/pdf/alfalfa/nmsuweedmgmt.pdf)

Had some areas of foxtail coming on strong in my new alfalfa seeding so I hit that as well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Foxtail7-4.jpg

We're planning on baling it but that foxatil is starting to pickup speed and...I haven't seen any "prime first cutting foxtail hay" being sold down at the sale barn lately... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

The alfalfa and red clover mix that nannyslayer brought over is looking mighty fine!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaRedClover6-28.jpg

No "skinny" deer on my place... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[nannyslayer]

Hmmmm, I might have to come over and harvest one of those doe's thats running around there, just for a taste test /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nannyslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmm, I might have to come over and harvest one of those doe's thats running around there, just for a taste test /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif </div></div>

Only one?? C-mon...their like Pringles, you can't eat just one... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[KSQ2]

My father-in-law is going to plant RR Alfalfa this fall, I'm looking forward to seeing how it does.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSQ2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My father-in-law is going to plant RR Alfalfa this fall, I'm looking forward to seeing how it does. </div></div>

Keep us posted on that...they took it off the market for a while as I understand it but apparantly they have approval now.

I understand the seed will be very expensive but certainly easier to control weeds and grasses. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

Unless you guys know something I don't, Round up ready alfalfa has not been approved yet. It is in the works to get approved, but as of right now, not approved.

There are a few bags of RR alfalfa still floating around out there, but it is illegal for a distributer to sell it and illegal to plant it. Just a thought to keep in mind before you post pictures on the internet on new seeding RR alfalfa.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nannyslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you guys know something I don't, Round up ready alfalfa has not been approved yet. It is in the works to get approved, but as of right now, not approved.

There are a few bags of RR alfalfa still floating around out there, but it is illegal for a distributer to sell it and illegal to plant it. Just a thought to keep in mind before you post pictures on the internet on new seeding RR alfalfa. </div></div>

Thanks Brian...I didn't think it was approved yet. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Ok...Alfalfa before using Select

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GrassinAlfalfa.jpg

Alfalfa after using Select /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GraseFreeAlfalfa.jpg

Wow! Clean as a whistle!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I didn't spray the whole field but rather just did kind of an L shaped area so I could see better what happens

This pic is unsprayed in the background and the very front edge of the pic is sprayed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Unsprayed.jpg

Left side sprayed - right side not

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LineintheGrass.jpg

Here you can clearly see where I sprayed the foreground and then swept off to the right.

Grass in all of the background but not a single stem in the front.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaafterSelect.jpg

Remember 6-8 ounces of Select and 1% v/v crop oil per acre.

Awesome stuff!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

If one was spraying about 5 acres, and using a 15 gallon sprayer..how much water/select should I mix? One plot is alfalfa, the other clover. Thanks!

[nannyslayer]

.4 oz of select per gallon of water or for simple measuring, half oz of select per gallon of water. That would make the mix a little hotter than you need it, but it will get the job done /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[huntyak]

Thank you!

[huntyak]

So, the 5 acre field could be done with the 15 gallon tank and about 7-8 oz of select. How do i add the v/v crop oil and how often after i mow should I spray..or..do I need to mow again?

[nannyslayer]

That is a hard one to figure out. If you run over 5 acres with a 15 gallon tank with the mix I said, that will only be putting on 1.5 oz of select per acre, which will more than likely not kill the grasses. I would try to run most of a tank mix over 1 acre if you can. That will give you 7.5 oz per acre, which will be plenty strong.

As for spraying, if your going to mow, make sure that all the grasses are growing good again, then spray. No need to spray more than once a year, unless you have a grass out break later on.

As for the crop oil, just a little will do. In a total tank, you will only need 5/6 oz of crop oil.

[huntyak]

We mowed about 1 wk ago so I'll hit those fields this Wednesday. So if the field is 5 acres, add about 7-8 oz of select to the 1 gallon drum and use it all per acre. Do this 5x over the entire field and it should nuke it? Thanks.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We mowed about 1 wk ago so I'll hit those fields this Wednesday. So if the field is 5 acres, add about 7-8 oz of select to the 1 gallon drum and use it all per acre. Do this 5x over the entire field and it should nuke it? Thanks. </div></div>

Here's the deal with any spraying regardless if it is a one gallon or a 1000 gallons....

You must know how many gallons of water you are applying per acre??? It's impossible to determine any application rates without knowing that.

You really need to calibrate your sprayer and know who much a gallon of spray will cover. I believe we have calibration links in the herbicide thread or...just put in a 1/2 gallon of water and see how far it goes??

43,560 sq ft in an acre so how much to do 435 sq feet for example?

You need need to know how many acres that 1 or 5 or 15 gallon sprayer will cover and then we can figure out exactly how much product to mix with it.

My 2 1/2 gallon backpack sprayer at a steady walk will cover about an acre....makes for easy figurin' /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

2 1/2 gallons. 8 ounces of Select, (shot of crop oil /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )and one acres worth of "hoofin" it!

My field sprayer in first gear, high range (using Alice) puts on 20 gallons of water per acre, so speed makes a big difference in amount of water and hence, product per acre.

If your one gallon sprayer will in fact cover one acre then your good to go but that seems a little iffy??

Makin' any sense?? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

It does but I will have to see how fast the water comes out etc and measure that. I have a range finder so, although not exact, about 70 yards sq will equal 1 acre if an acre is 43,000 sq ft?

[dbltree]

Thought I would share some more pics of alfalfa treated with Select grass herbicide. These are from my new spring planted alfalfa seeding.

The problem here is foxtail...so I purposely sprayed some areas and left some.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Selectnuntreated.jpg

It's easy to see the dead/dying foxtail compared to the waist high foxtail in the untreated area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Selectnunsprayed.jpg

Select is amazingly effective! Thus far I have heard no one say that Select (properly applied with crop oil) didn't work while the opposite has been true of people using Poast Plus also properly applied using crop oil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Compare2.jpg

This is the dekalb alfalfa and red clover from nannyslayer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfanRedclover.jpg

Falcata alfalfa and berseem clover as of late July

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataRCnBerseem.jpg

All of my alfalfa and clover plots are crawling with deer and covered with beds. I also put up a nice covey of quail today while walking thru the oats/alfalfa mix /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Right now is a great time to establish an alfalfa seeding which can be clear seeded at 15-20#'s per acre or you can add oats at roughly 50#'s per acre. Keep in mind however that while the oats won't hurt anything they will be very mature and unattractive to deer by October.

The following is some helpful alfalfa planting information from Welter Seed.

Establishment

Use a soil test measure as a guide to check your pH and nutrient status several months before seeding. Apply lime and fertilizer as needed. Your pH levels should be 6.5-7.0. An ideal soil bed is moist, fertile and firm. Alfalfa prefers crumbly silt loam to sandy loam textures but alfalfa will grow well on most deep, well-drained soils with adequate internal and surface drainage. Alfalfa will die if the soil is saturated for an extended period. Plowing will result in a clean, firm seedbed, but you have to plant when the soil is not too dry or too wet. Plowing may bring rocks to the surface and the field would be more subject to soil erosion. Discing or harrowing requires less time than plowing/tilling, but may not rid the seedbed of weed seeds, diseased plant parts or herbicide residues. No-till seeding can be completed on a wider range of soil conditions and rocks are left below the surface and the field is far less susceptible to soil erosion. You also save time, fuel and power requirements Plant alfalfa 1/4"to 1/2" deep on medium to heavy textured soils and plant at least 1/2" on sandy soils either in the spring or late summer-early fall.

** I would only add the usual "food plotter" advice here...

Till, roll, broadcast seed, roll to cover

Management

For maximum yields, it is important to have 20-30 plants per square foot during the seedling year for protection against weed competition. Do not harvest alfalfa seeded in late summer until the following spring. Allow new seedlings to start to bloom before the first harvest. Cut alfalfa three-four times a year when stand is 25% flowered. FROST DAMAGE INFORMATION: 1. If plants appeared to have died, wait 3-5 days after frost and re-examine plants. 2. At least one set of leaves must have escaped frost damage for the plant to survive. If there are at least 20 plants per square foot, the stand will survive in good shape. If there are 15 or less plants, topseeding alfalfa (if stand was planted the fall prior) is recommended. (if stand is 1+ years old, rotate in another crop to avoid alfalfa autotoxicity.) 3. If less than 30% of stem tops show wilting/browning, do nothing, enough stems remain to provide good growth, first cutting may have yield reduction, but should recover well by the second cutting. 4. If most of the stem tops are damaged and less than 10" tall-do nothing. There will no advantage at this height to mowing. If stand is 12" or taller, mow existing top growth. The growing points may have been killed, but the plant will form new buds at the lower points. The first cutting will be delayed and there will be some yield loss, but recovery should occur. 5. If all stems on a plant are frozen back to the ground, the plant is dead.

I'm real happy with my alfalfa seed from nannyslayer so if your in need of some shoot him a P.M. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[huntyak]

Does anybody have an image of alfalfa seedlings after about 2-3 weeks? The field I planted 7/27 is full of "something" but am not sure if it is alfalfa versus normal growth of weeds etc. Seems I've seen these plants before but a guy can hope /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I'll try to post a pic later but if anybody has new growth alfalfa pics I would apprecite it. Thanks.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anybody have an image of alfalfa seedlings after about 2-3 weeks? The field I planted 7/27 is full of "something" but am not sure if it is alfalfa versus normal growth of weeds etc. Seems I've seen these plants before but a guy can hope /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I'll try to post a pic later but if anybody has new growth alfalfa pics I would apprecite it. Thanks. </div></div>

This is my spring planting at about 3 weeks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa6-01.jpg

Another closeup pic of alfalfa seedlings

http://ag.arizona.edu/crop/weeds/images/Image37.jpg

Hope that helps /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Just a reminder that thru most of the midwest and northern states we shouldn't cut alfalfa after Sept. 1st. The plant struggles to re-grow versus conserving root reserves making it susceptable to root rot and winter kill.

A late August mowing will still leave nice tender growth for fall hunting seasons. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My spring seeded alfalfa continues to do well

This is the Falcata "one cut" Siberian Alfalfa...so far so good!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AugFalcataAlfalfa.jpg

This is the Dekalb brand alfalfa from nannyslayer also lookin' great!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AugustDekalbAlfalfa.jpg

I'll be clipping mine this next week and then leave it for the deer to "clip" this fall... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, my father-in-law will be planting the RR alfalfa I mentioned to you a while back, in the next few weeks, I'll let you know how it does. I'm hoping it does well and we can plant it next fall.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSQ2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dbltree, my father-in-law will be planting the RR alfalfa I mentioned to you a while back, in the next few weeks, I'll let you know how it does. I'm hoping it does well and we can plant it next fall. </div></div>

I assume he has aquired the seed prior to the court injunction ending the sales of RR alfalfa seed or has purchased it under a special permit.

This is from Monsanato's RR alfalfa site:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Product Availability

The Court issued an injunction which prohibits new planting of Roundup Ready
alfalfa seed, except under permit, unless and until APHIS completes an
environmental impact study (“EIS”) and makes a new decision to deregulate the
trait. APHIS expects to complete the EIS in 18-24 months, or mid-late 2009.
There will be no seed sales prior to this APHIS action. Planting under permit will
be limited to support pending research and development needs necessary prior
to any anticipated re-launch.
If APHIS deregulates Roundup Ready alfalfa, there will be seed available for
Roundup Ready alfalfa varieties sold prior to the injunction. </div></div>

RR alfalfa (http://www.roundupreadyalfalfa.com/home.aspx?page=news)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Status of Roundup Ready Alfalfa

USDA deregulated Roundup Ready Alfalfa in June 2005, and FGI commercialized the product in August of that year. In late 2006 the Center For Food Safety and others filed a suit against USDA in San Francisco Federal Court claiming deficiencies in the Environmental Assessment process used by USDA/APHIS for deregulating Roundup Ready alfalfa. The judge ruled in favor of the Plaintiffs, specifically finding that the USDA environmental assessment should have included a “hard look” at the potential impact of Roundup Ready alfalfa on the development of glyphosate resistant weeds and on the economic environment, including potential economic impact on organic alfalfa producers. The ruling required USDA/APHIS to conduct an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) and stopped any new sale or planting of Roundup Ready alfalfa after April 1, 2007 pending the completion of the EIS and a new deregulation decision by the agency.

The judge did not question the food/feed safety of Roundup Ready Alfalfa and allowed the continued harvest of existing Roundup Ready alfalfa hay and seed. USDA/APHIS stewardship requirements for harvest, labeling and movement of Roundup Ready alfalfa hay and seed can be found at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/alfalfa.shtml

During their preparation of the EIS, USDA/APHIS will be soliciting feedback from alfalfa producers. The best opportunity for feedback will be during comment periods. A 30 day public comment period on the Notice of Intent to conduct an EIS was announced January 7, 2007. Please see the Current News tab for details on how to provide comment. Continue to check this page to learn when and how you can provide EIS feedback. Grower feedback is very important in this process. Your comments will make a difference.
</div></div>

More thoughts on RR alfalfa (http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/wfapmc/2006/pap/Undersander2.pdf)

It's only a matter of time before it comes back on the market so we'll look forward to feedback from anyone who will be planting it soon. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, I hadn't heard of the injunction and I'm pretty sure my father-in-law hasn't either. That's too bad, he really needs to plant this fall; I 'magine he'll end up planting a different variety. You've got me curious now, I'll have to give him a call this evening.

[dbltree]

This is a pic of a field that huntyak has no-tilled some alfalfa. Little late in the summer but with enough warm weather hopefully it will get established before cold weather.

Very interested to follow this seeding...so keep us posted!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/No-tilledalfalfa.jpg

I clipped my spring seeded alfalfa the end of August (September mowing of alfalfa is not reccomended) so it should be just right for a late season draw.

This is some I used Select on earlier....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26Alfalfa.jpg

This is someI did not and was heavily infested with foxtail...big difference!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfanFoxtail.jpg

Hard to beat a new alfalfa seeding for a late fall draw! Tender,sweet and hi protien it will stay green at the base well into winter.

[huntyak]

It was amazing to me how much of a difference select had on my clover. After hitting it in mid August, and I didn't mow it before (brush-hog was sick), these were full grown grasses, it killed them dead! I mowed two weeks later and the clover exploded! I thought it was late as well for the alfalfa but we planted 25#/acre with orchard grass per the farmer renting it out. What purpose does that serve? 6 acres went in, about 150# of alfalfa, #25 of rugged alfalfa, and #25 orchard grass. Lord knows we are getting the rain and it was planted 8 days ago...perfect:)

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 25#/acre with orchard grass per the farmer renting it out. What purpose does that serve? </div></div>

IMO mixing grass with alfalfa is a bad idea and makes no sense at all. Just "old farmer" habits... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Deer don't want that grass and and farmers feeding livestock or selling hay know that grass only lowers the value of the hay.

Why do we kill grass in alfalfa and clover with Select?? Deer don't eat grass or at least not if they have the slightest choice.

In pastures we use a combo of clover and grass partially to prevent bloat problems and because grass can stand intensive grassing better then clover or alfalfa but otherwise grass = waste....

other then that it won't hurt a thing... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[Sligh1]

I have heard a lot of farmers adding grass to add to their tonnage and reduce costs of the expensive alf-alfa. Might be some other reasons I am not aware of BUT I sure wouldn't put it in IF I had the choice BUT if this is a new planting (and you don't have a choice) you'll still be sitting pretty good, those deer will find PLENTY of the Alf-alfa and it should be full of deer, especially if it's good quality and tender! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

Yeah, wasn't sure either but I really had no choice if he wanted to rent it out and I didn't know the difference in either case. Hopefully 25# per acre of alfalfa will still make it look like an alfalfa field and not a mixture stand. Too late I guess /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

huntyaks no-till alfalfa is popping up so he wanted to share a pic of "baby" alfalfa seedlings. No-till drills are just darn handy...wish I had one!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfano-tillseedling.jpg

Keep us posted with progress as this alfalfa was planted a tad late. Hopefully we have a while before cold weather. Mid October would give it 45 days or so if frost holds off. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

At what point of growth would you feel comfortable saying it would "make it."

How cold is too cold?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At what point of growth would you feel comfortable saying it would "make it."

How cold is too cold?

</div></div>

I always preferred summer seeding alfalfa and clover for reasons that are now becoming clear in the clover thread. Hardly any messing with weeds etc. that we have in spring seedings but timing is important so I'll share a few key points from this link on summer seeding alfalfa by UWEX: Establishing Alfalfa During Late Summer (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/LSAlfalfa.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the advantages of seeding alfalfa in late summer?

Late summer alfalfa establishment offers several advantages over traditional spring seedings. Weed and insect pests seldom limit stand establishment success. Using a pre-plant incorporated herbicide or a companion crop is not recommended. Companion crops will compete too strongly with the developing alfalfa seedlings for moisture. Also, the first hard freeze will kill any annual weeds that may have germinated. Remember that soil temperatures are much higher in the late summer than they are in the early spring. With adequate moisture, alfalfa seedlings will germinate, grow and develop a crop canopy at a much faster rate.
</div></div>

So plenty of good reason to plant either alfalfa in late summer...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What are the risks of seeding alfalfa in late summer?

There are also risks associated with late summer alfalfa establishment. The primary concern is the possibility of moisture stress during germination and seedling establishment. Timely seeding will reduce this risk significantly. It’s always advisable to make late summer seeding decisions based upon current soil moisture conditions and short-term weather forecasts. Near normal August and September rainfall should be more than adequate to establish vigorous and productive stands.

Another risk is the threat of an early killing frost and/or severe winter. Again, timely seeding is important to minimize these risks.

</div></div>

So when do we plant and what happens if we plant to late??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the recommended seeding and establishment practices for late summer seedings?

Seeding Date

Note that throughout this text reference has been made to seeding date as <span style='font-family: Arial Black'>late summer</span>, NOT FALL!

Although weather and soil conditions vary each year, it is recommended that late summer seedings be made between August 1 and August 15 in Wisconsin. If you are in the northern half of the state, plant alfalfa in the early part of August. If soil moisture and temperature conditions allow, seeding slightly earlier or later than these dates will also result in successful alfalfa establishment.

As a rule of thumb, seed alfalfa 6-8 weeks before the average first killing frost in your area. Seeding too early increases the risk for hot, dry conditions to occur during germination and seedling development. <span style="color: #FF0000">Seeding too late will not give the plants enough time to develop adequate root and top growth before winter. </span>

<span style="color: #3366FF">After September 1, your chances of successfully establishing alfalfa are very low. </span>

Researchers at Purdue University (at a location much farther south than Wisconsin) reported that September 6 and 20 seeding dates in 1984 and 1985 resulted in significant winterkill and/or a high influx of weeds into alfalfa stands the following spring. In northern Pennsylvania, alfalfa yield in the first production year were reduced by 158 lbs/acre for each day seeding was delayed after August 1.
</div></div>

So how do we compare weather wise with Wisconsin??

Southern Iowa is in a warmer zone but...still pushing it planting then end of August.

http://www.usna.usda.gov/graphics/usna/Hardzone/ushzm1a.jpg

So...as with all crops,especially this fall with late planted corn and soybeans...a lot of folks will be watching the temps and hoping that that first killing frost comes real late this year.

How cold is to cold??? Those seedlings need time to become established and develop strong root systems before getting burned back by a severely cold night or two.

Our average first frost is October 5th...and that is really pushing the 6 week bare minimum time needed when planting late August...but if we don't get that hard frost until late October....

Things like that are in God's hands now........ /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

Great post Paul! I guess the seeding was out of my hands as the farmer who I rented out to wanted to do it mid to late August. It is what he does for a living so my hands were tied as i had no experience with it. Looking back the rains finally came that last week where if I had planted early it was bone dry all through August. They are up and maybe we are getting TOO much rain but hopefully I'll get a break and it will establish. 6 weeks will be October 8th...fingers are crossed!

[dbltree]

I took this pic the other day showing alfalfa that I had sprayed Select grass herbicide on one end.

You can clearly see the line where I stopped spraying...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaafterSelect-1.jpg

The Falcata siberian alfalfa has done well so far but I'm looking forward to cold weather and how it does compared to convention alfalfa. No signs of disease or stress due to pests.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataAlfalfa-3.jpg

The Dekalb alfalfa from nannyslayer is doing well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Dekalbalfalfa9-21.jpg

Fortunately it's coming up thru the foxtail mess I mowed down earlier... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfathrudeadhay.jpg

The areas I didn't spray with Select certainly don't look as good so it's worth the few bucks an acre to control the foxtail in a new seeding.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfaaftermowing.jpg

Tons of feed right now but that will change over the next few months and I'll get a chance to see reaction to the different alfalfas and how they stack up to other types of food sources such as clover, brassicas, oats and rye. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

huntyak sent in these pics of his alfalfa seeding now 6 weeks old...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/6wkalfalfa.jpg

This alfalfa was no-tilled in and it's looking good so far.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/6wkalfOct.jpg

Since this seeding was planted a little later then usual we'll keep an eye on it next spring and see how it does. Hopefully we'll have some nice snow cover this winter to keep the "baby" alfalfa from freezing out.

Thanks for the pics and keep us posted........ /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

I don't have an exclusion cage in the Falcata alfalfa and the leaves/stems are very fine so it's difficult to see if deer are grazing it but it looks great so far!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcataAlfalfa-4.jpg

I mixed red clover from nannyslayer in with the Falcata and deer are sure pounding it. It's all the same height so I have to assume they are grazing it fairly evenly.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FalcatanRC10-16.jpg

I'm going to be watching this closely as we progress into colder weather to see if it holds up and deer do in fact feed on it later on.

If it holds up in the brutal winters of Siberia and Wyoming I see no reason why it won't do well here. They tell me that cattle graze it all winter where it's commonly grown. I know that deer feed in my own alfalfa clear in to Febuary so the one cut Falcata hopefully will perform even better.

Right now there are thousands of acres of standing soybeans and corn but every deer I see is feeding in alfalfa fields....... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

November is days away...there are hundreds if not thousands of acres of standing corn and soybeans surrounding my farm.

I have all types of "candy" plots from oats to clover, rye to brassicas....so what are deer eating at the Doubletree??

Alfalfa...every day, all day I see them chowing down in this stuff....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct25Alfalfa.jpg

I can't blame them, it does look pretty tasty!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfaOct25.jpg

This link on Timley cutting of alfalfa (http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/pr_forage/pubs/af123.pdf) shows just how high the crude protein level is as noted in this chart.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Cutting Stage Plant Height (in) Crude Protein %

Vegetative 10 33

Pre-bud 16 26

Bud 20 21

1/10 Bloom 24 19

Full Bloom 26 18

Green Pod 27 16

</div></div>

33%...I dare you to find anything that will provide deer with that kind of nutritive value! Only white clover comes close.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alfalfa. A good well-managed stand of <span style="color: #FF0000">alfalfa generally will yield more CP per acre than any other forage</span>. Yield of energy per acre is also high. It is probably the best overall forage available for dairy cows. Alfalfa must be cut at the proper stage of maturity to obtain maximum feeding value. The main disadvantages with alfalfa are the high cost of seed and specific soil drainage and fertility requirements. Alfalfa requires well-drained soils, high soil levels of phosphorus and potassium, and soil pH near neutral (pH 7).

Birdsfoot Trefoil. This legume is very similar in feeding value to alfalfa if managed properly. Birdsfoot trefoil will generally equal or out-yield alfalfa in poorly drained soils in northeastern Ohio, but stands generally will not persist throughout the rest of the state. In well-drained soils alfalfa generally produces about 20% more nutrients per acre than trefoil. Unlike alfalfa, trefoil does not induce bloat, making it useful in pasture situations.

Clovers. This category includes red, alsike, and white clover. Red clover can be used as silage, pasture, or hay. Because of the characteristics of the plant, curing time can be quite long.

Nutritionally it is similar to alfalfa, but generally contains slightly more fiber and slightly less CP as compared to alfalfa at similar maturity. An advantage of red clover over alfalfa is that feeding value decreases slower with advancing maturity.

Generally alfalfa will out-yield red clover in well-drained soil. Costs of establishing a stand of red clover are substantially less than for alfalfa; therefore, red clover may fit better when a short stand life is desirable (e.g., a 3-year crop rotation). White clover can be used as a companion to grass in permanent pastures with alsike favored over white on poorer drained soils. Yields are low compared to alfalfa, but costs are also low. Nutritionally, white and alsike clovers are similar to alfalfa.

</div></div>



Interpreting Forage Analysis (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/hay/r1080w.htm)

Deer know what they need and they choose alfalfa for a reason and they will keep choosing it well into the new year! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[bowhuntr311]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have all types of "candy" plots from oats to clover, rye to brassicas....so what are deer eating at the Doubletree??

Alfalfa...every day, all day I see them chowing down in this stuff....

33%...I dare you to find anything that will provide deer with that kind of nutritive value! Only white clover comes close.
</div></div>

Im not going to argue with that. I hunt 5 different alfalfa(and/or)clover fields. Timely cuttings are so important to fall feeding. My favorite alfalfa patch is 3acres tucked behind a chopped corn field. Outta site of the road, should be great; NOT so much. Farmer cut it late July early August, fertilized again and never cut it again. It almost is ready to be cut again but he wont touch it, he is hoping for it to hold some snow for frost killing prevention.
Another field was cut 3rd week in september. Deer still pounding it and I fully expect them to be till we get snow.

Thanks for the info Dbltree.

[dbltree]

Every morning, every night as I have traveled to hunt, I pass alfalfa fields full of deer. Untold thousands of acres of corn and soybeans literally everywhere (afterall...this is Iowa! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )but they choose alfalfa.

I don't think anyone would ever regret setting up a stand on a runway leading to an alfalfa field around here. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Frigid temps to 12 degrees have wilted the clover flat to the ground but not so with my alfalfa!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21Alfafa.jpg

My first year spring seeded alfalfa doesn't look as pretty but it's still drawing them in.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nov21Alfalfa.jpg

My new Falcata alfalfa seeding is doing great!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21FalcataAlfalfa.jpg

and they are grazing very hard! Notice the red clover seeded with it has wilted to the ground.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GrazedFalcata.jpg

The Falcata is a Siberian alfalfa that should last well into winter but it is also a "one cut" alfalfa so it will be much easier to maintain the regular alfalfa.

I'm really excited about it in my high deer density area because they have a hrad time "mowing" to the ground as they do everything else.

For those that have enough acerage to allow a farmer to plant and hay alfalfa, it is a great oppurtunity to take advantage of a fantastic high protien food source and...get paid for it!

Alfalfa ground should rent easily for $80-100 an acre and all kinds of aggreements can be reached for the farmer to plant, fertilize, lime and maintain the alfalfa.

Not only will it cost you nothing, you can have cash income to boot! I don't spray, don't mow, don't do anything but hunt... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

My own renter bore all the costs of putting the seeding in and pays me cash rent as well. I'm telling ya you can't beat that with a stick! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[SaskGuy]

HOLY MACKINAW that stuff is still green.

And 100 bucks an acre....Holy Licksplit....around here you can buy it here off of guys for a cent a pound standing.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Saskguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HOLY MACKINAW that stuff is still green.

And 100 bucks an acre....Holy Licksplit....around here you can buy it here off of guys for a cent a pound standing.
</div></div>

Alfalfa hay in small square bales here in Iowa is selling for $3.50 to 5.50 a bale but it is also marketed in the 700# square bales so they can haul it to Texas or Florida where it will bring even more per ton.

Recent Iowa Hay prices (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/taylor/news/hay.htm)

At anywhere from 2-4 tons of alfalfa per acre with much much lower input/production costs then corn your looking at roughly $400-500 an acre.

The average cash rent (per acre) for established alfalfa in Iowa is $144 per acre. (a range of $87-190)

2008 Cash Rental Rates for Iowa (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/FM1851.pdf)

With small hard to get at plots, clover is the best bet but if one has 3 or more acres and a farmer nearby who puts up hay, it's crazy to monkey with mowing, spraying fertilizing, etc. etc. when you can turn all the work over to someone else and then get paid rent on top of it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

BTW...that alfalfa will be green all winter near the bottom under the snow.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

The alfalfa fields where I hunt are still getting pounded by the deer. Most of the corn and beans are out, so they are REALLY pounding it now.

[OHIOshedder]

Bear with me and allow me to run this scenario past you....

I have a fairly fertile creek bottom strip in SE Indiana measuring about 500'x50' or about 0.6 acres. I did a late summer alfalfa/clover planting 3 years ago. The planting rec'd no real rain until cold weather set in and the little sprouts were hammered with deer and never got much growth before the freeze. The following spring, the grass got a good jump on the alfalfa and I did not spray. I tried cutting to stay ahead of the grass, but we can only cut and not bale, rake, or pickup the cuttings. I think the cut grass helped smother out the plot. In any case, within 2 years, there was little alfalfa and lots of grass.

I'm going to re-do this plot and do whatever it takes to make it great. Current pH is 7.3..not sure if I need add'l lime or how much to add. My main concern is spring-vs- summer planting. I really want to do a spring planting to ensure rain. The past 2 summer/fall periods have been a serious drought. I'm tempted to lime this winter, nuke in spring, then plant alfalfa with oat cover crop. I'm concerned that cutting or spraying the oats in late spring/early summer will smother the young alfalfa. Should I only use the cover crop if it can be baled or raked? On the other hand, maybe I should go back to the late summer planting and pray for rain. If I do the late summer planting with oats, I'm concerned that I'll attract too many deer and the young alfalfa seedlings will get tromped into the ground.

Thanks- This is a great thread!

[BOWSTRING]

Your Ph is good if not a tad high. I think 7 is nuetral. I don't think you need to lime. Others will have a better idea on though. Have you thought about going with something other than alphla? Not positive but I think that it needs to be cut then baled or something to clean the clippings off. Once again not positive and other will know more than me.

[dbltree]

Summer alfalfa seedings should really be in July to give the seeding time to get some decent roots established. Grasses should be killed before hand with Roundup and any grasses that come up post planting can be killed with Select grass herbicide.

You don't need anymore lime if in fact it is as high as you think.

If you want to try a spring seeding, it is possible to control weed without using oats. You can use pre-emergence herbicide such as Treflan and post emergence herbicides such as Select and BUTYRAC 200.

Herbicides of course can be expensive which is normally why we consider summer seedings.

Have you soil tested and applied all the P&K that is required?

Did you use quality alfalfa seed with inoculant?

Did you firm the soil with a packer, then plant and re-pack?

Just looking for other reasons why your seeding failed so we can make sure your next seeding is successful. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

As mentioned perhaps clover might be a more manageable option to consider but that has nothing to do with why your seeding didn't work out.

Here's a list of herbicides to consider if you decide to try a clear spring seeding.

ALFALFA WEED CONTROL SUGGESTIONS (http://alfalfa.okstate.edu/weeds/alfalfa_weed_control_suggestions.htm)

[OHIOshedder]

Thanks for the feedback. I did soil test, but did not add P or K. I did use a seed with inoculant. I drug the field to pack and lighly re-drug to cover seed- some seed probably was too deep, but most germinated. I attribute the failed plot to no weed control and overbrowsing and smothering from clippings. Is there a consensus on whether I stand a chance at a decent alfalfa field if I can only mow, but not remove clippings?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a consensus on whether I stand a chance at a decent alfalfa field if I can only mow, but not remove clippings?
</div></div>

That is tough to deal with and why alfalfa isn't for everyone. You need to mow frequently and not mow too close, but it is a problem that might steer you towards clover which is much lower growing and easier to maintain.

Alfalfa is a no brainer if it can be hayed but otherwise it's not without it's problems... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

This is mid December and deer still feeding in alfalfa....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12Deerinalfalfa.jpg

Some folks say..hey, what is there to eat? Isn't it all brown and dead?

Still nice and green even despite fridgid temps in the single digits...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/EstablishedalfalfainmidDec.jpg


Kick the snow away and...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12Alfalfa-2.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Decalfalfa-2.jpg

This is some of my seedling year Falcata alfalfa...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Falcataundersnow.jpg
as well as my Dekalb alfalfa seeding from nanny

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SeedlingalfalfainDec.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/StillgreeninDec.jpg

compared to clover which is flat and unattractive (at least next to the alfalfa.. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12Cloverflattened.jpg

I know it's not really fair to say "give clover a shot" and then show those pics, but white clover planted in conjunction with cereal grains and brassicas can be a viable option without the management headaches of alfalfa when haying is not an option... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[OHIOshedder]

I'm going to give it one more shot- this time with better weed control. I think I'll divide the 1/2 acre strip in half and plant 1/4 acre this spring with oats, then plant the other 1/4 acre around August (probably with oats too). I'll get at least 1 great year from this plot. I'm hoping to stage the growth so the deer do my mowing for me ;-) Probably too optimistic, but we'll see. If it fails, I'll go back to brassicas. I planted brassica and turnips in this field 2 years previous and that stuff really flourished in this bottom land soil.

Again, thanks for your input. I'm sure you've done a lot of good helping wanna-be food plot farmers like me from throwing good money at bad farming practices.

[hillrunner]

Alfalfa may not be practical for everyone but it is by far my favorite food source to hunt. The deer love it year round but they will pound it in herds when the temps plummit. I like to throw a little variety in but alfalfa is the main food source for deer on my ground.

[Tim Hull]

In muscatine I have at least a dozen deer in the alfalfa field every night. They are hitting that rather than picked corn fields.

[lassig]

I am looking at adding alfalfa and going to start on a half acre plot and maybe enlarge that later. This half acre will have to be mowed (not big enough or accessable enough for baling). Since it is only a half acre I was leaning towards WI alfa rack. But reading more on the Falcata alfalfa I am starting to considererd this. What really has me interested is the year around grazing and being one cut. With being one cut I assuming that means slower growing and requires less mowing, right?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With being one cut I assuming that means slower growing and requires less mowing, right? </div></div>

Mine is just going into it's second year so I'll know more next summer, but I believe it doesn't mature and get rank and unpalatable like conventional alfalfa.

This would allow you to not have to repeatedly mow it or perhaps just clip it making it a vastly superior option for smallplots where baling is not an option.

The first year conventional alfalfa is tender and fine and it's hard to compare to the Falcata so time will tell. So far I have no complaints of problems with the Falcata alfalfa. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[lassig]

So, I would plant about 7 to 10 pounds for the half acre. Plan on doing this next spring and using an oats cover crop. When should I cut the oats? before it heads out?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lassig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, I would plant about 7 to 10 pounds for the half acre. Plan on doing this next spring and using an oats cover crop. When should I cut the oats? before it heads out? </div></div>

Check back in this thread but you can let them head out, farmers usually harvest the oats but you can just clip the tops off first.

The standing straw won't hurt anything and then clip it lower next time. You can also kill the oats and grasses with Select herbicide and not clip it until much later in the summer.

The main thing is not to let everything grow real tall and then mow it down close and leave it all there to smother the alfalfa seedlings.

A flail type mower really works better to elimate swathing and smothering in alfalfa.

http://www.tiger-mowers.com/images/products/rear_flail_1.jpg

http://www.tiger-mowers.com/files/product_gallery/ornrblok.jpg

Flail Mowers (http://www.tiger-mowers.com/products/flail/rear_flail.asp)

If one of those isn't in your budget (hey...it doesn't hurt to dream... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ) then just clip frequently rather then "mow" it as we would for hay.

[Nontypcl1]

I have about 1.5-2 acres that I would like to plant in alfalfa. My biggest problem is that I probably won't be able to bail it. I have a farmer friend that lives close by but the access is not the best and I'm not sure if he would want to trouble himself with that small of an area.

That said, worst case scenario is that I won't be able to bail it. It is a well-drained area with a on a gently sloping hill side. The pH was 6.8 when I tested last spring. The area is currently in ryegrain,clover on one half and lablab and sorghum on the other.

I should be able to mow as often as needed and spraying won't be a problem. My biggest worry is that with not bailing it that it will get smothered. I've never grown alfalfa so I'm a little unsure of what i'm getting into.

I guess my question is if I am unable to bail it should I plant alfalfa or start looking at other options?

Also I have a fairly high deer density so is 1.5-2 acres big enough to keep deer from completely demolishing it before it ever has a chance?

Thanks in advance

[dbltree]

Even with my high deer densities they can't keep up with even small alfalfa fields which is great in that respect.

You might read back thru this thread and consider the Falcata alfalfa for a small plot that one can't bale.

It's meant to be a "one cut" alfalfa and might work better. I'm still in the testing phase myself but I like it so far.

Regular alfalfa will take many clippings to keep it from smothering I will say that. Not impossible, but a pain compared to white clover... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Sligh1]

Read some pages out of this thread. I am going to plant 8 acres into alf-alfa this spring, I couldn't do it last summer because beans were in there. I will have it limed and fertilized in the next couple weeks. The farmer is busy and for some ODD reason he will likely only bale in once or twice in a year (throwing money away I know!). I plan on throwing 2 lbs of Alice white clover into the mix just for a little variety & so i could reduce the amount of alf-alfa seed per acre(is this ok or would you NOT do this?), thinking maybe around 15 lbs/acre if i mixed in a little clover, what you think???

My MAIN QUESTION- do you have a variety, two or three you'd plant or mix together that's best for deer???? Deer is the main goal- not bailing BUT it will be baled. Grazer alf-alfa from Welters, Galaxy grazing alf-alfa, etc. What would you plant (1 to 3 varieties, I could mix all together OR plant in few acre sections if you chose different alf-alfas). If it were you- what would you plant that's best for DEER????? (and LATE SEASON hunting!!!)??? Thanks!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I plan on throwing 2 lbs of Alice white clover into the mix just for a little variety & so i could reduce the amount of alf-alfa seed per acre(is this ok or would you NOT do this?), thinking maybe around 15 lbs/acre if i mixed in a little clover, what you think???
</div></div>

You would be better off mixing red clover with alfalfa Skip, white clover is much shorter and may not be as compatiable.

Red clover is taller and more agressive and as long as you hay it even twice a year, the red clover/alfalfa combo will be VERY attractive to deer and work well for the farmer.

The only reason I don't encourage red clover is because like alfalfa, it's difficult to manage without baling it.

You have the ideal situation where you have a farmer to bale it.

Personally I would give nannyslayer a call because he has awesome varieties of both alfalfa and red clover and both have performed great for me!

I wouldn't use the grazer types for hay because they aren't as disease resistant as alfalfas bred for hay production. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, would mixing red clover with alfalfa hurt its value in the eyes of the average cattle farmer? We will be in a similar situation after we plant this fall.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">would mixing red clover with alfalfa hurt its value in the eyes of the average cattle farmer? </div></div>

Red clover and alfalfa are commonly seeded together...or were but now days most farmers sow pure alfalfa, just because it is higher yielding better quality forage.

Most beef cattlemen are not going to be to concerned one way or the other but some dairy farmers might not be interested in a mix.

If the hay was being sold as baled hay, the markets are nationwide for pure high quality alfalfa but not so much for red clover or a red clover mix.

Are you going to market this hay yourself or sell it out of the field to a local farmer? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

[Sligh1]

I'm not marketing it AND I don't care about value. Would you choose to mix in red clover if you're only concerned with deeer?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you choose to mix in red clover if you're only concerned with deer? </div></div>

Yes...I have found that deer love both red and white clover but I reccomend white clover for food plots because it is lower growing and easy to maintain then red clover.

That leads people to believe that white is better then red but my thoughts have nothing to do with deer preference.

You can try white clover with alfalfa but I don't think it will work well as far as compatibility. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

THANKS DBLTREE!! A little spin, would you plant straight alf-alfa OR would you choose to mix in some clover if you were only concerned with the best deer feed?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">would you plant straight alf-alfa OR would you choose to mix in some clover if you were only concerned with the best deer feed? </div></div>

Personally I would plant the best alfalfa and forget the clover but I understand your trying to save a few bucks on seed.

The only fault alfalfa has is that it needs to be harvested for hay to be maintained (hardly a fault but a problem for small plotters)

Alfalfa will outlast clover well into the new year and deer love it, it's one of the highest forages for digestable protien and can last 5-8 years as a stand.

Heck...what more could a person want? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, we already have several farmers interested in paying to bale (and we won't even be ready to hay for another year!). Most times around here the landowner gets 1/3 of the hay, but that's with splitting the input and spraying costs, with us paying for all of that, we'll get a little more -- cash, not hay, we don't have any cattle.

Sounds like it'll be pure alfalfa for us, the stuff is gold around here for the cattle farmers.

BTW, my father-in-law didn't get a good stand last year, so he's replanting this spring, which he's not too happy about, most farmers like planting in the fall to get a head start on the weeds. BUT he's trying to find out from the local seed companies if they've cleared the RR alfalfa, if so, he'll be planting it.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pure alfalfa for us, the stuff is gold around here for the cattle farmers.
</div></div>

Yes it is and that makes it equally as valuable to deer and landowners who can take advantage of the cash flow it generates along with the "venison" it attracts... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

You just can't beat a food plot that pays the bills and attracts deer at the same time... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Sligh1]

I sign a 5 year rental agreement for hay ground. They pay to put it in, lime/fertilize it, seed, etc and give me an excellent rental rate. I can choose what seed, etc in my circumstance.

[KSQ2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sign a 5 year rental agreement for hay ground. They pay to put it in, lime/fertilize it, seed, etc and give me an excellent rental rate. I can choose what seed, etc in my circumstance. </div></div>

Sounds like you have a GREAT situation. Our future hay ground is NOT prime, most farmers I think would laugh at us at the idea. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[dbltree]

I don't like to confuse people with the issue of adding clover to alfalfa or not, normally with a brand new seeding...straight alfalfa would be my first choice.

A mix of alfalfa and red clover is fine but really there is no advantage IMO.

As an alfalfa patch starts to thin however, frost seeding red clover into the field can help extend the life of the plot.

If alfafa begins to thin, grasses and weeds begin to invade which requires herbicides to control. Frost seeding red clover into the thinning alfalfa will extend the life of the field a few more years, while still providing top quality hay for the farmer and high protien forage for your deer.

I frost seeded some red clover last week into a field that is thining a bit.

I used a one cut red clover but nannyslayer has some awesome red clover that will last 3-4 years that would be a better bet for hay. I seeded roughly 10#'s per acre in early March...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MammothRedClover.jpg

You can see the bare soil inbetween the drilled rows of alfalfa

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Baresoilinalfalfa.jpg

I had sprayed this field with Select 2-EC grass herbicide last summer to clean it up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlfalfainMarch.jpg

We'll see how it does this year with the red clover added...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frostseedcloverintoalfalfa.jpg

Just limed a field for a brand new alfalfa seeding...I can see the deer licking their lips already... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[Nontypcl1]

Dbltree,

Where did you get the falcata alfalfa seed and how did it handle the cold during late season? I'm thiking about planting some this next fall but haven't found a seed source yet

thanks

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nontypcl1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dbltree,

Where did you get the falcata alfalfa seed and how did it handle the cold during late season? I'm thiking about planting some this next fall but haven't found a seed source yet

thanks </div></div>

I purchased it from Wind River Seed (http://www.windriverseed.com/) just shoot them an email for prices and shipping. Was about $4 a # last year.

FALCATA ALFALFA SEED (http://falcataseed.com/)

Falcata alfalfa is very different because it will spread and thicken and in theory will last hundreds of years. We don't know how it will be affected by disease and pests in our area as this is not "improved" seed.

If it works as expected it might never have to be replaced like conventional alfalfa that eventually dies out.

Mine stayed green until the first of the year and then died back but I can tell you more this year after it has been established longer.

I believe there is a min. $40 seed order but check with them for sure. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSQ2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

BTW, my father-in-law didn't get a good stand last year, so he's replanting this spring, which he's not too happy about, most farmers like planting in the fall to get a head start on the weeds. BUT he's trying to find out from the local seed companies if they've cleared the RR alfalfa, if so, he'll be planting it. </div></div>

They have not cleared the RR alfalfa yet, but it is looking good that it may be back on the market for fall. Nothing definite yet, but looking better anyways.

If your father in law can find some RR alfalfa, it is not illegal to plant it, just have to report it and keep track of it is all.

[RockChucker30]

dbltree,

I'm thinking of putting around 1.5 acres of alfalfa, and like others, have no way to hay it. It is on my Dad's farm, and my Dad raises meat goats. How would the alfalfa do if instead of haying we turned 20 goats on it for a few days...no need to mow, no worry about smothering.
Thanks

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RockChucker30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dbltree,

I'm thinking of putting around 1.5 acres of alfalfa, and like others, have no way to hay it. It is on my Dad's farm, and my Dad raises meat goats. How would the alfalfa do if instead of haying we turned 20 goats on it for a few days...no need to mow, no worry about smothering.
Thanks </div></div>

The only problem with grazing alfalfa is bloat problems, livestock with nothing else to eat will eat the green alfalfa and then bloat and unless caught very quickly (with a knife to the stomach... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif ) they will die.

Deer graze alfalfa along with browse and other crops so bloat is not a problem. I'm not sure about goats but I know sheep and cattle have a serious bloat problem when eating alfalfa.

I've buried to many cattle that got loose in the night into a lush green alfalfa field. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Your idea otherwise would be reasonable but check with your vet because I think your looking to loose some goats if you graze them on pure alfalfa....

[Outdoor Family]

Dbltree
Is that the alfalfa from russia that is greening up already? If I remember correctly that alfalfa is a one cut and stays green well into winter. Kinda thinking of maybe a fall planting of an acre to see how it goes...

[dbltree]

Dbltree
Is that the alfalfa from russia that is greening up already? If I remember correctly that alfalfa is a one cut and stays green well into winter. Kinda thinking of maybe a fall planting of an acre to see how it goes...

Actually both the conventional alfalfa and the Siberian Falcata alfalfa are both greening up about the same.

The difference is that the falcata should not have to be mowed as frequently as conventional alfalfa. The other positive (in theory) is that the falcata supposedly is re-seeding and will last forever.

After I have had it growing on my place "forever" I'll know for sure...;)

Wind River Seed has a minimum order of $40 I think which will get you about 10#'s (roughly) I haven't checked 2009 prices.

So far it has done very well but this will be the second year so I'll keep you posted... :)

[ksbooner]

I'm going to have my farmer put in 15 acres of alfalfa for hay.

Normal rental rates for corn/soybeans are $165 an acre

Any ideas for rental rates for the alfalfa?

When is the last date I want him cutting so I can leave some feed for the deer?

Thanks For Any Feedback!

[dbltree]

I'm going to have my farmer put in 15 acres of alfalfa for hay.

Normal rental rates for corn/soybeans are $165 an acre

Any ideas for rental rates for the alfalfa?

When is the last date I want him cutting so I can leave some feed for the deer?

Thanks For Any Feedback!

Here's a link to rental rates by area but alfalfa ground isn't much different then corn ground rates.

2008 Iowa Farmland Rental rates (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/FM1851.pdf)

Alfalfa shouldn't be cut past Sept. 1st to allow it to rebuild root reserves for winter and that is perfect for nice lush fall re-growth.

Mid to late August is perfect then for a last cutting...:)

[ksbooner]

Thanks Very Much dbltree! You are one wealth of knowledge!

It says "established" alfalfa rental rates.

What do you think would be fair for this year. I was thinking that the farmers pays for the lime and fertilizer and the seed and gets this years cutting for free and stops cutting Sept. 1st

Then next year we figure out a rental rate?

Thoughts?

[dbltree]

Thanks Very Much dbltree! You are one wealth of knowledge!

It says "established" alfalfa rental rates.

What do you think would be fair for this year. I was thinking that the farmers pays for the lime and fertilizer and the seed and gets this years cutting for free and stops cutting Sept. 1st

Then next year we figure out a rental rate?

Thoughts?

My farm consists of mostly poor hill ground or bottoms that flood frequently so it doesn't exactly "command" high rental rates... ;)

Having said that, my tenant pays ALL costs of putting in the alfalfa (seed, lime, fertilizer and planting) AND pays me rent too!

Your farmer will harvest 2-3 cuttings this year and then up to 4 cuttings per year for years so I wouldn't give it to him free this year, perhaps a 2/3 rate?

He pays for all the seed, fertilizer, and herbicide to put in corn and soybeans correct?

Why would alfalfa be any different?? :)

[Outdoor Family]

Thanks Dbltree.
I'll see how my 1/2 alfalfa arce field looks like next week. Wife picked up 3 3lbs bag of Tecomate chicory for $7 each. Will likey add some to clover and alfalfa fields next week. I think I will try the falcata this fall. If I remember correctly it can also handle ph in the 6ish range????

[dbltree]

Thanks Dbltree.
I'll see how my 1/2 alfalfa arce field looks like next week. Wife picked up 3 3lbs bag of Tecomate chicory for $7 each. Will likey add some to clover and alfalfa fields next week. I think I will try the falcata this fall. If I remember correctly it can also handle ph in the 6ish range????


I think it can get by in that range but be sure to seed a minimum of 6-8 weeks before killing frost which is roughly Oct 5th in our area. ;)

[dbltree]

Our tenant planted a field of alfalfa at our our farm April 11th along with oats, so we'll watch progress of this new seeding this summer. Alfalfa seed takes roughly 10-15 days to germinate and start growing. Alfalfa Germination (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/hay/r648w.htm)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/April11alflafaseeding.jpg

When it comes to alfalfa, there is to my knowledge no alfalfa that deer "prefer", they love alfalfa...period! So when it comes to establishing alfalfa that will be used in a haying scenario, select the best variety for you area.

Dormancy rates determine how well alfalfa will surive colder winters so lower dormancy is for colder climates and here in Iowa the lower the number as you go northward the better.

If alfalfa does not go dormant it will likely die in cold weather so make sure you talk to your seed rep about an alfalfa that is right for your area.

Here's a link on the subject:

Alfalfa Dormancy Rates (https://muextension.missouri.edu/callaway/jarman-news/Jarman_2000/jarman_2000_feb2.html)


Typically, alfalfa slows the growth of leaves and stems in the fall and starts storing carbohydrates in the roots. That stored energy helps the plant survive the winter. And, the reserve gives the plant a jump-start the next spring. However, if a plant goes dormant too early, forage production is lost. If it goes dormant too late, the plant might winterkill. The goal is to find a happy medium between production and persistence.


Alfalfa Variety Fall Dormancy Ratings (http://www.alfalfa.org/falldormancy.html)

Alfalfa is too expensive to lose a new stand because of improper seed selection.


Factors That Improve Winter Survival in Alfalfa


Winter-long snow cover of 4 inches or more
Winter-tolerant variety
Two or three summer cut harvest systems with good regrowth between cuttings
Uninterrupted growth (5 to 6 weeks) during September and October
All of the last growth of the season left in the field (no cutting or grazing)
Management of insects (e.g., potato leafhoppers) during the growing season
Good levels of potassium in the plant
Young stands or older stands with no root or crown disease
Fall harvest management of alfalfa (http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/icm/node/1395/print)
Alfalfa Variety Characteristics (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0014.html)

Thru this link one can find out how various alfalfa varieties compared in successive tests here in Iowa.

ISU Alfalfa tests (http://www.croptesting.iastate.edu/alfalfa/bulletins/)

Dormancy rates of 1-5 may alright here in Iowa but for the most part 1-4 will have a higher winter survivability rating.:)

[Sligh1]

I got 8 acres drilled in this weekend. I ended up killing off with round-up (gave it a bit of time- wish it would have been more BUT i'll just hit with Select if needed) and seeded 20 lbs to the acre of straight alfalfa.
I got it from Bwright (you can send him a PM) and what I ended up ordering was Maxigraze Grazing Alfalfa. The price was excellent.
I limed the field and spread plenty of potash. Drilled in last Friday and it rained Saturday. Hope it takes off! Good luck with your plantings!!!

[huntdoc]

Hey DB, is that new alfalfa seeding the field where corn and beans got hammered? If it is, I will be curious to see how many deer pile intothe field now!!

[dbltree]

Hey DB, is that new alfalfa seeding the field where corn and beans got hammered? If it is, I will be curious to see how many deer pile intothe field now!!

Nope..but I do have alfalfa in that field that was planted last year and it's holding up fine! I also planted the siberian one cut Falcata alfalfa there and it also is holding up fine.

Alfalfa produces a tremendous amount of forage and I have never seen deer decimate it like corn and soys...;)

[OHIOshedder]

At the beginning of April, I plowed and disced under my grass covered former alfalfa plot. I did not spray first and estimate that post-discing I had about 65% bare ground and 35% live grass. I packed the field and broadcast alfalfa seeds and it rained that night and frequently since. I have a nice growth of young alfalfa seedlings coming in, but the grass is coming back fast. My thought is to spray with something like "Arrest" to kill the grass, but not the alfalfa, then once the alfalfa is big enough I'll mow the field. I"m not sure if the alfalfa seedlings are too young to withstand the spay though. I'm hoping that the 2nd growth alfalfa will smother out any grass which tries to grow post-spraying.

Sound like a good plan? I'm open to comments.

Thanks!

[dbltree]

At the beginning of April, I plowed and disced under my grass covered former alfalfa plot. I did not spray first and estimate that post-discing I had about 65% bare ground and 35% live grass. I packed the field and broadcast alfalfa seeds and it rained that night and frequently since. I have a nice growth of young alfalfa seedlings coming in, but the grass is coming back fast. My thought is to spray with something like "Arrest" to kill the grass, but not the alfalfa, then once the alfalfa is big enough I'll mow the field. I"m not sure if the alfalfa seedlings are too young to withstand the spay though. I'm hoping that the 2nd growth alfalfa will smother out any grass which tries to grow post-spraying.

Sound like a good plan? I'm open to comments.

Thanks!

It's too late for this advice but generally it's not advisable to seed alfalfa after alfalfa because the mature plants have some toxicity issues and can prevent alfalfa seedlings from germinating and surviving.

Best to plant it to something else for a year and then go back to alfalfa but for now we'll hope yours does alright.

Also better to nuke the grasses first with roundup and then plant but in your case I would use Select 2 EC (or generic versions such as Arrow or Volunteer) because clethodim is far more effective then sethoxydim (Poast Plus or Arrest)

Which ever you use make sure you add crop oil per the label and I believe in most cases it won't hurt seedling alfalfa or clover but double check the labels in the herbicide thread. ;)

[OHIOshedder]

Thanks for the reply. I've heard about the toxicity issue, but I had 2 good years of alfalfa and then the past 2 years were mostly grass and weeds, so I hoped that would be long enough. I'll say the alfalfa sprouts are doing quite well. I wanted to roundup first, but it was pretty pricey and I was in a hurry to plant and was lucky to get a dry enough window to disc and plant much less wait on roundup.

I'll look into the herbicide you mentioned and see if our coop carries that.

Regards.

[lassig]

Ordered 9 pounds of Falcata yesterday to be planted in Aug. The plot is a little over 1/2 acre, Realize this is a little thick but I am not the best at broadcasting and would rather have a little too much than end up short. The plot was planted in buckwheat last Friday so should have decent weed control over the summer

[OHIOShedder at Work]

I should have taken your advice and sprayed first. Our little alfalfa sprouts are less than 2 months old and are already getting over taken with tall aggressive grass growth. I think they are getting browsed by the deer too which is allowing the grass to quickly overcome the plot. I looked into the Select 2EC, but nobody around me carries it. Our herbicide dealer suggested a product called "Shadow" which contains clethodim for $120/gal. Have you heard of this product? He didn't think you could use it on alfalfa seedlings, but the Shadow website it can be used on post-emergent alfalfa. Since this seems to be my only option to salvage the plot, I'm thinking of a light spray in a test section....

[JNRBRONC]

I looked into the Select 2EC, but nobody around me carries it. Our herbicide dealer suggested a product called "Shadow" which contains clethodim for $120/gal.

You might ask about Poast herbicide. (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld00F025.pdf)

[dbltree]

I should have taken your advice and sprayed first. Our little alfalfa sprouts are less than 2 months old and are already getting over taken with tall aggressive grass growth. I think they are getting browsed by the deer too which is allowing the grass to quickly overcome the plot. I looked into the Select 2EC, but nobody around me carries it. Our herbicide dealer suggested a product called "Shadow" which contains clethodim for $120/gal. Have you heard of this product? He didn't think you could use it on alfalfa seedlings, but the Shadow website it can be used on post-emergent alfalfa. Since this seems to be my only option to salvage the plot, I'm thinking of a light spray in a test section....

Shadow is just another generic version of Select containing the exact same amount of clethodim and should work just fine for you.

Shadow herbicide label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld83B004.pdf)

I do not reccomend Poast because it has proven ineffective against many tough cool season grasses that clethodim will wipe out and the cost per acre is the same.

Arrow and Volunteer are a couple more generic clethodim products all containing the exact same percentage of active product.

The source listed below can ship a gallon of clethodim for around a $100 so you might also give him a call.


Jim Bolding 919-462-1375 Crop Smart LLC


Our new spring seeded field of oats and alfalfa
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/2009Newalfalfaseedling.jpg

Growing fine with all the spring rains!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/5-25-09Seedlingalfalfa.jpg

2nd year Falcata alfalfa

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Falcataalfalfa2ndyear.jpg

Deer seem to be grazing it hard and overall it's doing fine

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Grazedfalcataalfalfa.jpg

Curious about clipping needs and if it really can be a one cut alfalfa or not...stay tuned...

[dbltree]

Some comparison pics the first of June 2009 to help show why alfalfa can be difficult to manage unless it can be harvested for hay...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Alfalfa5-25-09.jpg

Gunner is a big ole Golden Retreiver just to give some idea how high it is...he was "bounding" thru it...:D
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/5-25-09alfalfa.jpg

My Falcata siberian alfalfa isn't as tall at least at this point
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/5-29-09FalcataAlfalfa.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Falcataandredcloverlatemay.jpg

The leaves look like regular alfalfa (there is red clover in the pic as well)
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Falcataalfalfaleaf.jpg

At this point the falcata is basically the same height as this stand of clover
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clovermixheight.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clovermix5-29-09.jpg

Alfalfa is awesome stuff and a source of cash flow if you have enough acreage to interest a local farmer but for small plots it's looking like the Falcata might be a great option.

I'll know more as the summer progresses...stay tuned...;)

[lassig]

Looking good on the Falcata. I just recieved 9 pounds of seed last night for a 25K sqft plot to be planted in Aug.

[dbltree]

Looking good on the Falcata. I just recieved 9 pounds of seed last night for a 25K sqft plot to be planted in Aug.

Keep us posted on what you think of the Falcata Mark...:way:

[lassig]

I will post pics when things get going. I planted that field in buckwheat 10 days ago. Hope to plant the falcata around the 15th of August.

[RockChucker30]

dbltree,
I'm still mulling over an alfalfa plot, and have done a little digging. I asked a local farmer about alfalfa, and he said every field planted in that area had been wiped out by deer. One guy put a web wire fence on top of a web wire fence to keep them out, and they still got it. Do you think the regular alfalfa would survive that kind of grazing? Would the falcata do better? Or would this just be an expensive failure?

[dbltree]

dbltree,
I'm still mulling over an alfalfa plot, and have done a little digging. I asked a local farmer about alfalfa, and he said every field planted in that area had been wiped out by deer. One guy put a web wire fence on top of a web wire fence to keep them out, and they still got it. Do you think the regular alfalfa would survive that kind of grazing? Would the falcata do better? Or would this just be an expensive failure?

Wow! I can't imagine deer "wiping out" alfalfa!:eek:

I have extremely high deer densities and they can't even phaze the alfalfa...so it just doesn't make sense to me?

Are they "killig" when it's a new seeding? If so I would seed it with oats at 100-120#'s per acre to "feed" the deer while the alfalfa is becoming established.

Frankly I'd have to see it to believe it because alfalfa is a very aggressive fast growing plant.

The reason I don't reccomend alfalfa to the average plotter is because it simply grows to fast and gets to tall unless you can bale it. Falcata doesn't appear to get quite as tall and I think it flowers later allowing for the "one cut" rather then 3-4 for regular alfalfa.

Let me ask you this...what are you planting in your plots now? Are deer "killing" your current plots?

[JNRBRONC]

RockChucker30,

What is the soil like in that area?

[Sligh1]

Almost HAS to be something else that is stopping the alfalfa beyond the deer. JNRBRONC could be on to something with the soil question. Of ANYTHING you could plant out there, alfalfa has to be in the top range for inability of deer to destroy it. Unless you're planting like 1/2 an acre or something. If it's 2-3 acres or more, I think it would be almost impossible. Has to be more to it?!!?

[letemgrow]

Nothing finer than alfalfa for deer!!! Except for a young apple trees leaves :)

It is pretty site specific and the soil needs to be right before it is planted.

[RockChucker30]

Soils are silty loam, and well drained. I pulled two soil samples this year, one 5.5pH the other 6.0. In the early part of last century there were phosphate mines all over that area, so phosphorus never has to be added, and potassium rarely. I had one soil sample with 109 lbs/acre phosphorus, the other had 1775.

Not sure if they were killing it when young, or grazing so hard it just didn't make hay. I asked my cousin (the farmer) if he would cut and bale it if we needed him to, and he said he would love to but that we probably wouldn't need to cut it even if we did get a stand.

It suprised me to hear that alfalfa gets wiped out, but after speaking to some of the guys at church (they're all 60+, have farmed their entire lives, and grew up in this area) that was the consensus.

Maybe they do mean that it gets grazed so hard that it won't make a hay crop. That would be FINE by me!

[dbltree]

Maybe they do mean that it gets grazed so hard that it won't make a hay crop.

I have seen places with a 100 deer per square mile that could cause severe crop loss (alfalfa) but they still could never destroy it.

You'll need to raise the PH but otherwise alfalfa does well on loam or sandy loam soils and it planted with a good nurse crop of oats should do just fine.

I'm still curious what if anything you are planting now?

[RockChucker30]

dbltree,

I just started habitat management this year. I hinge cut a ton of trees during the winter, girdled a lot more in the beginning stages of a TSI project, and planted 3.5 acres of buckwheat this spring. The buckwheat is amazing stuff. It's doing VERY well. I plan on coming back with a mix of clover and rye in those plots, and perhaps starting a rye/AWP plot. I'm also planning to sow around 5 acres of rye into standing beans. This fall I plan to plant 20 or 30 hybrid oaks and start a plum thicket. I'll also broadcast 1 or 2 acres of CIR switch this winter, and continue the hinge cutting and TSI.

The amazing thing is that I didn't know squat about habitat management until I started reading this site and the qdma site back in the winter. I can't emphasize enough how helpful the knowledge here is to beginners.

[dbltree]

Sounds like you have a great habitat program going on there! You understand why I as about what else your planting?

If you can grow almost any other crop without deer wiping it out (such as beans) then alfalfa will be no problem.

If they don't murder clover for instance alfalfa will produce even more forage, so it I were you (considering the high cost of alfalfa seed) I would test various food plots first.

Rye and clover are great food sources to start out with and they can take a hammering by deer and survive.

I would encourage you to see what happens with those and let us know what you think and how deer react to them...:)

[whitetail fanatic]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but RockChucker30, you need to get your pH up to at least 6.8 (7.0 is better) before even trying to plant alfalfa.

With all the hype over the years about planting white clover for deer, we tried many kinds of white clover plots without much luck. The deer would use our fall and winter plots a ton, but hardly touch the different white clover varieties. Our neighbors have lots of alfalfa and they would always be feeding on that. As soon as we started planting alfalfa, the deer were hammering it! White clover could not compare to the attraction of alfalfa, even the special "deer white clover" varieties. We have had great luck with the whitetail institute's alfa-rack. We wanted just pure alfalfa, so I contacted them and was able to get just the pure alfalfa seed without any clover or chicory like they sell it normally. I think there are 3 alfalfa varieties they use in their alfa-rack plus product. If anyone else has tried alfa-rack from the whitetail institute and has been able to compare it's attraction to other varieties of alfalfa, I would be very interested to know if there are any others that are just as or more attractive. I'm afraid to try any other alfalfa varieties because this has worked so well, but please leave a post in this thread if anyone knows of any alfalfa variety that deer seem to prefer more than others.

In our area, there are well over 100 deer per square mile, probably closer to 150 per square mile, and deer can't come close to keeping our alfalfa "mowed". On our 190 acres we have about 10 acres of food plots, and right now because of crop rotations (everything else will be corn, rape and oats this year) we only have one small 1/2 acre plot of alfalfa and I've already mowed it 2 times. I mow it when it gets to about 12 inches tall, down to about 4" with a finish mower that does not leave a "windrow" of cuttings. From September through March we can drive the roads between ours and two other neighbor's properties, which totals around 700 acres (that includes our 190), and count 150 deer at times. A square mile is 640 acres, so like I said, it's probably closer to 150 deer per square mile. And yes, our buck to doe ratio is tight because we don't shoot young bucks. We are going to start increasing our doe harvest this year. I think it would be impossible for deer to destroy alfalfa unless you had only one small 1/2 acre plot and well over 100 deer per square mile with absolutely no other crops in the area for deer to "spread out" their feeding on. I don't think there are many, if any, areas of Iowa without agriculture, so that problem sounds very weird to me too.

[hillrunner]

150 deer per square mile? Wow, I can't even imagine that!
I,m curious what the difference is between the alfa rack and any regular brand of alfalfa one buys from the elevator or seed dealer.Does it produce less more or the same tonnage?

I have never hunted over an alfalfa that deer didn't like, it is by far my favorite food source for hunting deer.

[whitetail fanatic]

I think the alfa-rack is more of a grazing type alfalfa that is supposed to stay tender longer.

Sorry this might be a little off the topic of alfalfa, but yeah, there's a lot of deer around our area, but they stick pretty tight to the 700 or so acres I talked about because we are one of the rare areas of southwest Wisconsin where the deer herd hasn't been aggressively harvested the last 5 to 10 years because of us few landowners. Also, the two other neighbor have lots of prime alfalfa, plus corn and soybeans, but that's typical of most parts of SW Wisconsin. The natural habitat in our area is as good as I've ever seen and I've hunted different parts of Iowa and Illinois too for comparison, which has excellent habitat in most areas. We have tons of excellent natural browse and natural food sources with tons of brushy edge habitat and overgrown fields. Our woods has been selectively cut and there is thick undergrowth almost everywhere. We also have several large areas where the timber was thinned very aggresively and it's like a jungle. You can go 1 mile in any direction from our area and it's about 30 to 50 deer per square mile, which is average for southwest Wisconsin in recent years. We are going to start harvesting does more aggressively in our area this year to eventually get the numbers down to around 80 to 100 per square mile. We backed off on our doe harvest the last few years because our DNR went to war with the deer herd because of CWD, which is crazy. You have to live in an area with CWD to understand, but almost everyone thinks CWD is nothing to worry about and it's been here forever. Just ask anyone from Colorado or Wyoming where it's been for over 30 years and they will tell you pretty much the same thing. They learned years ago that you can't reduce the occurence rate of CWD by thinning the herd. Game managers from western states laugh at what the Wisconsin DNR has done. Our DNR makes it sound like CWD just got here in 2002 and it's going to wipe out our state's deer herd. That's funny because in a lot of areas of the CWD zone there are more deer now than there were in 2002 when the DNR set out to ereadicate our deer herd by creating 7 month long hunting seasons and unlimited tags and no bag limit. Again, sorry for my off topic rambling, but I just had to respond to the last post by hillrunner.

[dbltree]

I have planted alfarack side by side against regular alfalfa grown for hay and deer seem to care less either way.

Welters sells some good grazing alfalfas also but so far the Siberian Falcata seems to be a better alternitive.

Alfalfa seed is expensive regardless of where you buy it and so far I have never seen an alfalfa that deer didn't love!

Can't keep em out of mine I know that! :D

[RockChucker30]

Fanatic,
10-4 on the soil pH. If I decide to plant alfalfa, it'll be fall of next year. Buckwheat in the plot now, lime, disc BW under, roundup, rye in the fall, disc under in the spring, soil test again/ lime if needed, RR soybeans spring/summer (or BW preceeded and followed by roundup), THEN alfalfa next fall.

That should leave me with very clean and well amended soil prior to alfalfa.

(Would have already limed this year prior to planting BW, but for lack of a water pump the F250 hasn't been available to pull the ~5000 lb. lime cart.)

[dbltree]

THEN alfalfa next fall.


Just remember...you need to allow a bare minimum of 6-8 weeks before killing frost for alfalfa to become established or it can winter kill the first year.

I like to seed in late July or early August to give it plenty of time to become well established and get some root reserves built up.

Otherwise I like your plan....:way:

[RockChucker30]

dlbtree,
Thanks. I'd already read that in this thread. Average first frost date is around the 15th of October, so Planting in mid to late August would give me 6-8 weeks.

I only hear about planting a pure stand in the fall...would it hurt anything to plant a nurse crop of oats in the fall?

[dbltree]

dlbtree,
Thanks. I'd already read that in this thread. Average first frost date is around the 15th of October, so Planting in mid to late August would give me 6-8 weeks.

I only hear about planting a pure stand in the fall...would it hurt anything to plant a nurse crop of oats in the fall?

Absolutely not! I almost always add oats to give the deer some forage and keep them from foraging on the baby alfalfa so much.

It will freeze off eventually leaving a nice killed mulch thru the winter...:way:

[whitetail fanatic]

How does alfalfa compare to white clover in areas with less than total sunlight? We have a few small plots that are in clearings in the woods where we have white clover planted, but I would plant them with alfalfa if you think it would do as good as the clover in the partial shade.

thanks!

[dbltree]

How does alfalfa compare to white clover in areas with less than total sunlight? We have a few small plots that are in clearings in the woods where we have white clover planted, but I would plant them with alfalfa if you think it would do as good as the clover in the partial shade.

thanks!

Alfalfa loves sun and it doesn't do well even along field edges that are shaded, I'm thinking it wouldn't be the answer to any shade situation ;)

[corygnc]

Because of this alfalfa link I put in 11 acres of alfalfa this spring (thank god for the rain and good weather).....................GREAT INFORMATION..............thanks dbltree for your expertise on all this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dbltree]

Our early April oat/alfalfa seeding is/has been ready to be cut and baled but steady rains have made cutting impossible!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/June24oats.jpg

Hopefully the weather will moderate some and drier weather will allow them to get some haying done, but these pics give you an idea of what a spring seeding of alfalfa with an oat nurse crop will look like by late June.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Oatsandalfalfa6-24.jpg

The oats help hold down and weeds and you can see there are few weeds or annula grasses in this field

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Oatsnalfalfa.jpg

Cutting and baling removes the whole lot, weeds and all and will leave behind a lush second cutting of tender new alfalfa!

This field is right outside our kitchen window and deer travel daily to feed on this high protien food source...;)

[hillrunner]

gotta love the smell of fresh cut alfalfa! 5 days of dry weather forecasted, and 2nd cutting alfalfa just starting to bloom, the timing should be perfect.
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=61&pictureid=1431

[dbltree]

Looks like you have a great helper there hillrunner! :way:

Late June update on the Siberian Falcata alfalfa...lookin' good!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/FalcataJune26-09.jpg

My goal is to avoid cutting this alfalfa until I have to, if I have to?

This is falcatca and red clover mixed and they are hammering both pretty hard! The flower is red clover, falcata has yellow flowers I believe...;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/FalcataalfalfaandredcloverlateJune.jpg

I should have put up an exclusion cage but it appears they are keeping it well "trimmed" to perhaps 12" or so. In an area with few deer or lots of other grazing options perhaps they maight not hit it so hard?

This is conventional alfalfa that is blooming now in the same field and be grazed well also

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Conventionalalfalfa.jpg

The regular alfalfa is a little taller and I will need to clip it soon. Our established alfalfa was nearly 2 feet high before wind and rain leveled it.:rolleyes:

It finally got mowed yesterday, nearly a month overdue but it's finally haying weather...:)

Current Iowa Hay Markets (https://www.extension.iastate.edu/cass/news/hayprices.htm)

[dbltree]

The new alfalfa/oats seeding got baled during a break in the rains a few weeks back.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/7-3Alfalfa.jpg

Nice thing about baling is everythig is gone, slick as a whistle, no weeds no muss no fuss and the regrowth is coming on strong.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/2ndcutting.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Julyalfalfaregrowth.jpg


Always nice when we can get paid to feed and attract deer...;)

My Falcata alfalfa is looking fine and most of it I'm not going to cut until I see a reason too but one side had a few weeds and a few spots of foxtail coming up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Foxtailinfalcata.jpg

So I clipped about 1/2 way across as you can see in this pic showing the clipped on the left looking slightly lighter then the right.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/ClippedFalcata.jpg

It didn't hurt it by any means but it's not very "enticing" afterwords as the stems are shattered and dry at the top where the mower hit them.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Shatteredstems.jpg

The uncut looks a whole lot tastier...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/UnclippedFalcata.jpg

Just another little "test" but the whole point is that this alfalfa is so far not putting on the kind of heavy excessive growth that conventional alfalfa does (at least mine isn't) and is about the height of my red clover.

I thought I saw one or two yellow flowers the other day so I'm watching to see when it flowers and exactly when I will need to mow it.

The other side is a combination or red clover and falcata and it has almost zero weeds and man they are sucking that stuff down like it's candy! :way:

[HannibalBowhunter]

Could you/would you overseed alfalfa in the fall with a winter rye or brassica? Not sure if it would be needed, but wondering if it would help or hurt. I was just thinking of a late season food source.

[dbltree]

Could you/would you overseed alfalfa in the fall with a winter rye or brassica? Not sure if it would be needed, but wondering if it would help or hurt. I was just thinking of a late season food source.

Alfafa needs to be well established 6-8 weeks before you killing frost or it wil not survive the winter and it dosen't amount to much in 6 weeks of growth.

In otherwords it isn't capable of providing any type of food source established in the fall, one needs to have it planted in late July before it would get tall enough to provide a fall foods source.

Commercially a clear seeding of alfalfa in July is oneod the most common methods of establishing alfalfa but that is not a time frame conducive to adding rye and brassicas are too aggressive and will dominate and out compete the tiny alfalfa seedlings.

Alfalfa needs plenty of time to put down roots and store reserves before winter so cutting established alfalfa after Sept 1st or planting it at that time often ends up in severe winter kill. :)

[HannibalBowhunter]

Thanks for the reply. I guess my question is: If you have an established alfalfa field, can you overseed it in early September with a cereal rye. If so, is it beneficial or is the alfalfa alone enough of a late November/ early December draw?

[dbltree]

Thanks for the reply. I guess my question is: If you have an established alfalfa field, can you overseed it in early September with a cereal rye. If so, is it beneficial or is the alfalfa alone enough of a late November/ early December draw?

I find that alfalfa regrowth in the fall provides a tremendous draw well into December and often into January.

If there is enough exposed soil surface in the alfalfa stubble after mowing inlate August it may be possible to over seed some rye into it ahead of a good rain.

Rye is cheap so wouldn't take much to give it a try....;)

[OHIOshedder]

After several applications of Shadow (clethodim) I have the grasses under control and a recent applicatino of Butyrac 200 hopefully will have everything else under control. I have 2 questions:

1) There is a lot of alfalfa in my field, but its a bit spindly and each plant is spaced several inches apart and doesn't appear to be filling in very well. I haven't mowed yet. Does mowing encourage alfalfa to spread? I'm hoping the field will fill in a bit before fall.

2) I have a lot of one kind of weed that looks like alfalfa, but has little yellow flowers. I think its buttercup, but need to look it up in a weed book. Anyone know for sure what it might be and what chemical would be good for its control? I haven't been back to see if the Butyrac killed it.

Thanks.

[Nontypcl1]

I'm getting ready to put in a couple acres of falcata alfalfa and oats this weekend and have been contemplating buying a cultipacker to use for covering the seed but haven't been able to find an older (cheaper) one. I also haven't quite convinced myself that I need to drop $700 on a new flip over style to pull behind my 4-wheeler.

Any suggestions on what I could use to ensure good seed soil contact without breaking the bank. I do have a drag harrow that I use to cover rye, oats, wheat, etc. but was concerned that it might bury the alfalfa seed too deep

any thoughts?

[Alpha Doe]

I'm getting ready to put in a couple acres of falcata alfalfa and oats this weekend and have been contemplating buying a cultipacker to use for covering the seed but haven't been able to find an older (cheaper) one. I also haven't quite convinced myself that I need to drop $700 on a new flip over style to pull behind my 4-wheeler.

Any suggestions on what I could use to ensure good seed soil contact without breaking the bank. I do have a drag harrow that I use to cover rye, oats, wheat, etc. but was concerned that it might bury the alfalfa seed too deep

any thoughts?
I usually just use the 4 wheeler and run back and forth, tire track to tire track to cover the seed unless you are sowing 40 acres! It's the "poormans" version but it will do the trick and works real well.

Plant your larger seeds as you normally would and drag to cover, broadcast the legume seed and pack with the ATV.. dbltree

[OHIOshedder]

Visited my alfalfa plot yesterday and it looks like the Butyrac did almost nothing. The Shadow does a great job on grasses though. Still have quite a few broadleaves. I found that my mystery weed is Yellow Wood Sorrel and I have tons of it. I need to do some research and see if there is an herbicide that is safe on alfalfa, but kills Yellow Wood Sorrel.

[lassig]

Got the falcata Alfalfa planted today. Will post updates. Here is a picture of the plot

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/lassig/Food%20Plots/FP8/090814d_stitch.jpg

The plot is slightly over a half acre in size

[dbltree]

Got the falcata Alfalfa planted today.

Nice work Mark! Keep us posted on how you like it...;)

[lassig]

It rained 3 hours today, sometomes really hard, so it got a good drink, I didn't check it but hoping it didn't wash out.

[dbltree]

We have a new alfalfa seeding along our driveway that has been baled once this year and the second cutting is ready to be baled again.

I walked out one morning to find a couple whopper bucks grazing in it and last night there was at least a dozen deer in 5 acre field. Only a few yards away is an 80 acre field of beautiful soybeans yet they are choosing the alfalfa...:way:

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz307/dbltree2000/Alfalfa/2ndcuttingalfalfa.jpg

Alfalfa can be a great option for those with large enough fields to rent it out to a local farmer....cash rent, no mowing or spraying and a super attractant for whitetails to boot! :)

[tlambert]

How long has it been taking to get the Falcatta seed from Wind River? Just wondering if I'd have time to get some in yet this year.

[hillrunner]

thought I'd mention that were finding on my dads farm by planting alfalfa back by the trees the damage done to the corn becomes almost non existent. The DNR came out to give some depredation tags and said a lot of farmers are figuring out the same thing.

[dbltree]

thought I'd mention that were finding on my dads farm by planting alfalfa back by the trees the damage done to the corn becomes almost non existent. The DNR came out to give some depredation tags and said a lot of farmers are figuring out the same thing.

That is kind of what I did by planting falcata alfalfa and red clover around one of my main food plots. They still killed the soybeans but my situation is a little unusal perhaps but they have hammered the falcata/red clover so heavily I haven't even had to mow it yet! :eek::D



How long has it been taking to get the Falcatta seed from Wind River? Just wondering if I'd have time to get some in yet this year.


I don't think it took more then 4-5 days at the most after ordering mine? $40 minimum order if I recall correctly so I ordered 10#'s and ordered some alfalfa inoculate from Welters as well.;)

[SaskGuy]

OOH, that field screams "BUCK FOOD" to me!

[iowaqdm]

Dbltree,
What variety of alfalfa is in that picture you posted. Have you found any varieties that the deer seem to preferred. I am going to order some Monday from Welter. I have used grazer brand but was wanting to try another variety. Any recommendations?

[dbltree]

Dbltree,

What variety of alfalfa is in that picture you posted. Have you found any varieties that the deer seem to preferred. I am going to order some Monday from Welter. I have used grazer brand but was wanting to try another variety. Any recommendations?


So far I haven't found any varieties that deer don't like, just choose an alfalfa for your purpose. If for haying choose a high yielding, disease resistant alfalfa and if for deer only, choose one that will be lower growing and perhaps not so high yielding.

The alfalfa pictured is not from Welters but is a Dekalb variety and I don't recall the #?? ;)

[dbltree]

Our new alfalfa field was covered up with deer every day until it got mowed and baled the other day...;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Deerinalfalfa.jpg

That stuff is going to be a magnet when the regrowth comes up over the next few weeks...let's see, that'll be what?? October 1st?? :D

This link contains dozens of links to every imaginable subject to do with alfalfa...

Alfalfa links (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/alfalfa.htm)

[nannyslayer]

So far I haven't found any varieties that deer don't like, just choose an alfalfa for your purpose. If for haying choose a high yielding, disease resistant alfalfa and if for deer only, choose one that will be lower growing and perhaps not so high yielding.

The alfalfa pictured is not from Welters but is a Dekalb variety and I don't recall the #?? ;)


Probably dekalb DKA 137 ;)

[dgallow]

Do young falcata seedlings say under 3" tall have a reddish color to the stem? Just want to identify things correctly in our small test areas.

Oct was horribly wet for us....11" of rain vs 3-4" normally....first time I've seen statewide soil moisture indices above 0.9!

[dbltree]

Do young falcata seedlings say under 3" tall have a reddish color to the stem? Just want to identify things correctly in our small test areas.

Oct was horribly wet for us....11" of rain vs 3-4" normally....first time I've seen statewide soil moisture indices above 0.9!

Gosh I don't remember for sure...have to go back and see if I have any pics of the falcata that small?

This is conventional alfalfa...check page 8 for small falcata seedlings

http://ag.arizona.edu/crop/weeds/images/Image37.jpg

[Baranx4]

Dbltree, are the deer still hitting your alfalfa pretty heavy? How is the falcata variety doing?

[dbltree]

Dbltree, are the deer still hitting your alfalfa pretty heavy? How is the falcata variety doing?

This field is right beside our driveway so I get to pretty much watch it on a daily basis and it's a miracle we havn't hit a deer in our own driveway yet!:eek::D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/SDC13377.jpg

They are in it day and night and the other night I pulled in the drive coming home from hunting and danged near hit a big buck that came charging out of the alfalfa.

Yeah...they are still in it and most likely will be most of the winter. That pic is conventional alfalfa that is put up for hay but they are hitting the falcata the same way...:way:

[Baranx4]

This field is right beside our driveway so I get to pretty much watch it on a daily basis and it's a miracle we havn't hit a deer in our own driveway yet!:eek::D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/SDC13377.jpg

They are in it day and night and the other night I pulled in the drive coming home from hunting and danged near hit a big buck that came charging out of the alfalfa.

Yeah...they are still in it and most likely will be most of the winter. That pic is conventional alfalfa that is put up for hay but they are hitting the falcata the same way...:way:


How heavy did you plant the falcata? I've seen that they recomend a very thin rate per acre. Is it seeding itself or is it autotoxic like other alfalfa?
I've seen that you have drilled alfalfa and also tilled and planted, how did it do tilling and cultipacking?

[dbltree]

How heavy did you plant the falcata? I've seen that they recomend a very thin rate per acre. Is it seeding itself or is it autotoxic like other alfalfa?
I've seen that you have drilled alfalfa and also tilled and planted, how did it do tilling and cultipacking?

The thin seeding rate is for rangeland out west, hear I used about 10-12#'s per acre and it is supposed to spread/reseed so in theory it would last forever.

The problem is that falcata is not improved alfalfa so no one knows if disease and pests will be it's undoing and only time will tell. So far I am not aware of any problems.

Alfalfa will do the same drilled or broadcast providing you use a cultipacker.

I till, cultipack, broadcast seed and re-cultipack to cover the seed and that is how the alfalfa in the picture was seeded......

[Baranx4]

Alfalfa will do the same drilled or broadcast providing you use a cultipacker.

I till, cultipack, broadcast seed and re-cultipack to cover the seed and that is how the alfalfa in the picture was seeded......


It's amazing what a difference a cultipacker will do. Being relatively new to this I haven't been cultipacking but will be building one this winter. It poured after one of my seedings this fall and you could see the difference in germination, coming up much thicker.


Have you had to cut the falcata alfalfa yet? The more I hear about it the more I become interested.

[hillrunner]

I hunted a stand between my standing corn plot and alfalfa last night. I honestly can't tell if the corn has been touched. Several deer walked right through the security of the corn to feed out in the open on the alfalfa. My opinion is that you simply can't beat alfalfa for year round drawing power.

[dbltree]

Have you had to cut the falcata alfalfa yet?

I clipped some pure falcata only because foxtail became a problem in it but the falcata that I added red clover to I did not clip. The red clover filled in where the falcata was thin and kept weed from coming up.

That appears to be a good combination while the falcata stand thickens up although it still wouldn't hurt to clip it once or twice a summer....;)

[Baranx4]

I clipped some pure falcata only because foxtail became a problem in it but the falcata that I added red clover to I did not clip. The red clover filled in where the falcata was thin and kept weed from coming up.

That appears to be a good combination while the falcata stand thickens up although it still wouldn't hurt to clip it once or twice a summer....;)


I think I'm going to give the falcata a try this spring, using the red clover. I like the idea of a biannual without worrying if it's going to spread and choke out the alfalfa.

[dangibbs1]

How is your Falcata looking now doubletree. I'm thinking of planting some this summer. I could plant falcata or "regular" alfalfa but would only be planting 5 acres so income wouldn't be much. Do you feel like the deer like the falcata well enough?

[dbltree]

How is your Falcata looking now doubletree. I'm thinking of planting some this summer. I could plant falcata or "regular" alfalfa but would only be planting 5 acres so income wouldn't be much. Do you feel like the deer like the falcata well enough?

They seem to love it just as much as conventional alfalfa and clovers planted in the same plot. If I were planting alfalfa as a cash crop I would sow the conventional but if it is solely to feed deer then the falcata is easier to manage.;)

[whitetail fanatic]

dbltree, in the brassica thread you wrote: "I use Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover because it is inexpensive and deer hammer the stuff! It's a one cut red clover so it doesn't need a lot of clipping all summer and will last 2-3 years although I plant it to plow down so 1-2 years is about all I let it stand for."

How would you compare the attractiveness of the Alta-Swede Mammoth Red clover to good alfalfa? Since it is only a "one cut" clover, does it grow back as much and provide as much forage during the months of September to December? Does it stand up to heavy grazing in the fall?

[Daver]

How would you compare the attractiveness of the Alta-Swede Mammoth Red clover to good alfalfa? Since it is only a "one cut" clover, does it grow back as much and provide as much forage during the months of September to December? Does it stand up to heavy grazing in the fall?

I can't think of any clover that would beat any alfalfa for "standability" at this time of the year.

[dbltree]

I can't think of any clover that would beat any alfalfa for "standability" at this time of the year.

I agree...the Alta-Swede works up until early December depending on weather but eventually it's kaput and they still forage on the alfalfa.

I like alta-swede because it doesn't get rank as early, in otherwords it doesn't have to be clipped as often as other red clovers.

I us this red clover as a plow down and it serves a pupose but it will never compete with alfalfa this time of year....;)

[whitetail fanatic]

dbltree I know you said deer seem to like every kind of alfalfa that you plant, but out of all the different varieties of alfalfa that you've planted over the years, have you noticed any varieties that deer prefer more than others? I know it might be hard for you to tell because deer in your area seem to pound everything you grow!

Has anyone else out there noticed a preference of one type of alfalfa over another?

[dbltree]

dbltree I know you said deer seem to like every kind of alfalfa that you plant, but out of all the different varieties of alfalfa that you've planted over the years, have you noticed any varieties that deer prefer more than others? I know it might be hard for you to tell because deer in your area seem to pound everything you grow!

Has anyone else out there noticed a preference of one type of alfalfa over another?

There is alfalfa growing all over this country and I see deer grazing in all of them well into winter so I don't think they realy prefer one over another, I think it's more a matter of opportunity.

Plant alfalfa next to cover and they readily feed in it. The only issue that affects last season attractivness is dormancy, northern alfalfa's are bred for earlier dormancy to avoid winter kills while those in more termperate climates can be less dormant.

You would want to check in your area what is reccomended and go with a low dormancy rate within your range...;)

[rocco]

i'm no farmer. i've got the tools and know-how to small plot/woodland plot clover and the like. i do have a couple small woodland clearings that i could probably get the falcata alfalfa in.

what i'm wondering about is growing 3-5 acres of the "real deal". we have 5 or 6 fields totalling somewhere around 50 acres that's already being mowed for hay.

it's a unique situation, we basically rent a farmer 20 acres or so that he grows corn on, and as part of that deal he mows the fields for hay. he ain't exactly Farmer John, and i doubt seriously he'd be interested in paying for alfalfa, or even helping me get any ground ready.

however, if i want to, since he's not paying for the hay, i can nuke 5 acres of grass (or start with 1 acre, or half acre or whatever for a trial run) and put in alfalfa myself just for the benefit of the deer, and he will obviously not mind free alfalfa one bit.

my question is, is there any way that i could do this without implements? say just nuke it good, mow it as close as possible in a couple weeks, turn it over as much as possible with a 4-wheeler harrow and sow alfalfa with a nurse crop of oats for weed suppresion? i could come up with a barrel or something to roll over after planting to at least get some soil contact?

if that's not enough to consider, it's a 2 hour drive one-way!

[rocco]

seperate post for a seperate but related question. i've been "studying" all winter to come up with a plan for this property.

until reading this and other info about alfalfa, i thought i had a plan.

the property is 1000 acres in SW VA. 500 or so is pretty heavily wooded (90% hardwoods 10% mature planted pines) 200 or so is fenced with livestock on it, 10 acres of ponds and swampy area, and the balance in cornfields and pasture grass.

as of today, we have ~20 acres of corn that gets harvested for silage, and that's it. there's an apple tree here and there, and our acorn crop is spotty at best. the farmer doesn't even grow winter rye or anything after he chops corn.

on top of all this, we somehow manage to have what i think is pretty high densities. our best guess is somewhere close to 50deer/sqmi or more. our deer are literally eating ivy and briars. this property is begging to be managed. other than that little bit of "farming" it's used 100% for deer and turkey hunting.

my plan "was" to get all the small plots i could get in high protein spring/summer forage, probably durana since it's pretty long lived. (remember, it's a 2 hr drive, and i will be pretty much solo on this deal as far as the work) i had also thought about sweet spot, white clover mixes etc.

BUT, after reading this, i wonder if alfalfa isn't my magic bullet. the farmer will mow it, and IF i can get it established, it will require less work on me going forward.

the real question at the end of all this is, is there any reason alflafa couldn't be a suitable ONLY foodplot item for me? i could still easily do some small remote kill plots in something like sweet spot/throw n grow etc. but as far as tonnage of food, it's more than clover, it lasts longer into the winter, and greens up just as quick in the spring, right?

sorry for the long winded spiel!

[dbltree]

my question is, is there any way that i could do this without implements? say just nuke it good, mow it as close as possible in a couple weeks, turn it over as much as possible with a 4-wheeler harrow and sow alfalfa with a nurse crop of oats for weed suppresion? i could come up with a barrel or something to roll over after planting to at least get some soil contact?

Sounds like alot of work but if you can till it up good enough to make a decent seedbed then I believe you could end up with a decent seeding.

Hard to belive that the farmer wouldn't be willing to at least till the fields up for you if he is going to get free hay!?!?

Another option is to kill the sod and have someone no-till plant it for you if you can locate someone with a drill.

For hay you will be better off with conventional alfalfa but just be aware that the seed is pretty epensive and you really should do a soil test first and correct PH and P&K needs.

Alfalfa works well in high deer density areas and will normally attract well into December or later if your weather is not severe.

Make sure the farmer takes hay off the last time in late august so you'll have nice fall re-growth to attract deer.

let us know how your seeding works out!:)

[rocco]

i'm definately going to ask him if he'll help, but i'm going to plan as though he won't.

thanks for all you do to help guys like me!

[hillrunner]

Here are some pics I took today. It actually looked a lot more impressive a week ago as the warm weather has really shrunk the snow this past week. As you can see , the deer are still hammering my alfalfa. Even with standing corn right along the trees, they walk through the corn to dig for the alfalfa. They do hit the corn, just not nearly as hard.I hope they clean the corn up by spring, I don't really wanna disc it under and have a bunch of volunteer come up next summer.
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=193&pictureid=2738

[hillrunner]

Another look
http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=193&pictureid=2737

[dbltree]

Holy Cats! I guess so! Thanks for sharing the pics!!:way:

[dbltree]

Amazing how long alfalfa keeps "working"!!

Late October this field looked like this and was full of deer every night
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/SDC13377.jpg

In late Januray they were still feeding on it
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/CIMG0494.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/CIMG0492.jpg

Despite weeks of temps plummeting to minus 10-15 degrees the alfalfa is still green under the snow...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/CIMG0493.jpg

Now...it's late February and still the alfalfa is attracting and feeding whitetails

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/FebAlfalfa3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/FebAlfalfa2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/FebAlfalfa1.jpg

Still green and tasty despite a long hard winter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/CIMG0495.jpg

For the average small plotter clovers are generally eaiser to manage but alfalfa does offer some distinct advantages and can handle very heavy grazing pressure.

In my case my renter paid all the costs of establishing the seeding and pays me rent to boot, all the while keeping it mowed and baled and attracting deer to the lush high protein food source.

The first rays of spring sun will have the now dormant alfalfa springing to life and providing a great source of forage from early spring to very nearly the next spring....:)

[waylonb19]

dbletree how did your falcata plot do vs the conventional alfalfa plot when it came to attracting deer this winter? (late dec./Jan)

[dbltree]

dbletree how did your falcata plot do vs the conventional alfalfa plot when it came to attracting deer this winter? (late dec./Jan)

I would say about the same with possibly slightly more in the areas that had both falcata and red clover planted together.

There was more action in the Alice white clover next to the alfalfas however on that farm....;)

[whitetail fanatic]

quote:"I would say about the same with possibly slightly more in the areas that had both falcata and red clover planted together.

There was more action in the Alice white clover next to the alfalfas however on that farm...."


Do you mean the Alice white clover was more attractive and being used more by the deer this winter than the alfalfas right next to it?

[dbltree]

"I would say about the same with possibly slightly more in the areas that had both falcata and red clover planted together.

There was more action in the Alice white clover next to the alfalfas however on that farm...."


Do you mean the Alice white clover was more attractive and being used more by the deer this winter than the alfalfas right next to it?

Yes...but I should mention that I made the mistake of not mowing th alfalfa close to the ground in late August...I just clipped it and the falcata especially turned into dried stems/stubble rather then sedning up new growth as our conventional alfalfa did when baled in late August.

Everyone I talk too mentions the same thing...that deer tore up the Alice white clover plots due to the severe winter.

[whitetail fanatic]

quote: "Yes...but I should mention that I made the mistake of not mowing th alfalfa close to the ground in late August...I just clipped it and the falcata especially turned into dried stems/stubble rather then sedning up new growth as our conventional alfalfa did when baled in late August.

Everyone I talk too mentions the same thing...that deer tore up the Alice white clover plots due to the severe winter. "

So in a normal winter do you notice the deer using the Alice clover as much or more than alfalfa? How does Alice clover compare to alfalfa during hot dry summer weather? Does it go dormant like most white clovers in those conditions?

[dbltree]

quote: "Yes...but I should mention that I made the mistake of not mowing th alfalfa close to the ground in late August...I just clipped it and the falcata especially turned into dried stems/stubble rather then sedning up new growth as our conventional alfalfa did when baled in late August.

Everyone I talk too mentions the same thing...that deer tore up the Alice white clover plots due to the severe winter. "

So in a normal winter do you notice the deer using the Alice clover as much or more than alfalfa? How does Alice clover compare to alfalfa during hot dry summer weather? Does it go dormant like most white clovers in those conditions?

Alice is pretty drought resistant but I also have heavy clay soils that hold moisture longer then light soils.

Here's the deal...it's pretty much a toss up as far as the deer are concerned as they readily eat both. It boils down to the landowner...small plots are eaiser managed if planted to white clovers like Alice.

Large fields that can be hayed as a cash crop are better off in alfalfa.

Which one fits your situation Wes? ;)

[whitetail fanatic]

Thanks Paul. We probably have some that would fit each situation. Some fields would be easy for our farming neighbor to get in and out of to mow/bale the alfalfa. Other spots are harder to get to and/or smaller plots that probably wouldn't be worth it to the neighbor to go after, but we usually just mow them 3-4 times a year if we have them in alfalfa and let the cuttings scatter all over so it doesn't bury the alfalfa. I might plant some side by side to see if they prefer one over the other or if one does better than the other in our conditions. Deer around here seem to always prefer alfalfa over clover so I should probably just stick with that, but I always want to experiment with food plots to see if one thing works better than another.

[dbltree]

I might plant some side by side to see if they prefer one over the other or if one does better than the other in our conditions. Deer around here seem to always prefer alfalfa over clover so I should probably just stick with that, but I always want to experiment with food plots to see if one thing works better than another. <!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

That's the right attitude right there Wes! Both have great qualities with alfalfa getting the nod where one can bring in some cash flow or at least not have to monkey with mowing it.

Keep us posted if you try some side by side plots...I know I have had a few surprises with those kind of tests...;)

[dgallow]

Initial 'handfull here and there' test last fall for falcata looks 'okay' in our area. Had to get down on my hand and knees to find the seedlings...pencil lead sized redish stem with tiny trifoliates less than a pinky nail in size and in a cluster. Germ % didn't look very high but there wasn't any grazing protection afforded either.

Looks to be an 'improved siberian alfalfa' on the market. Cimarron USA crossed it with one of their improved varieties, and it's called the HayGrazer variety. Neat pics of the root mass.....think it was tested in both OK and NC. http://www.cimarronusa.com/Varieties.html

more details
http://www.cimarronusa.com/CimarronVarietyDetails.pdf

[dbltree]

Initial 'handfull here and there' test last fall for falcata looks 'okay' in our area. Had to get down on my hand and knees to find the seedlings...pencil lead sized redish stem with tiny trifoliates less than a pinky nail in size and in a cluster. Germ % didn't look very high but there wasn't any grazing protection afforded either.

Looks to be an 'improved siberian alfalfa' on the market. Cimarron USA crossed it with one of their improved varieties, and it's called the HayGrazer variety. Neat pics of the root mass.....think it was tested in both OK and NC. http://www.cimarronusa.com/Varieties.html

more details
http://www.cimarronusa.com/CimarronVarietyDetails.pdf

I like the fact that it is both winter hardy and less dormant at the same time! :way:

I see the Haygrazer one at this link:

Haygrazer (http://www.cimarronusa.com/Varieties.html#)


HayGrazer
Bred from a cross between Cimarron type and Siberian creeping root alfalfa, this unusual variety has an aggressive, branching root system and a dense sunken crown. HayGrazer's root system allows plants to withstand stressed soil conditions, such as cold wet soils, high water tables, heavy soils, shallow soils, hard pans, rocky soils, etc. HayGrazer provides top yields on deep, well drained, fertile soils, as well.

Fall dormancy 4. Winter hardiness 2.5
Enhanced winter hardiness
High hay yield and quality
Withstands grazing and trampling by cattle.

[Sligh1]

Killing some alfalfa I planted last year that turned out really bad/sparse. Just want to re-do it. If it is dead after round-up spraying- there's no way it will kill my new seeding will it? Just making sure! Thanks!

[dbltree]

Killing some alfalfa I planted last year that turned out really bad/sparse. Just want to re-do it. If it is dead after round-up spraying- there's no way it will kill my new seeding will it? Just making sure! Thanks!

Alfalfa can be toxic to new alfalfa seedlings but if you didn't have much of a seeding it may be ok....;)

[dgallow]

Thought you'd like that variety! Finding seed may be an issue....Kauffman has one of the other Cimarron varieties so maybe he can get some! :)

Considering last fall and winter were very wet with some sharp cold fronts, I think that my Sept planted falcata heaved or lodged whichever is the proper crop term. Think the red stem I noticed was actually the root with the small leaves clustered off the elevated crown.

I'm going to attempt a spring falcata planting by spraying with gly this week then a light discing in 10-14d to cover bob oats, cultipack, broadcast 20 lb/ac falcata with 5-10 lb/ac cinnamon red, then cultipack again. I'll fence this off from cows and clip the oats. Guaratee that wolly croton will show up, but that can be clipped above the lengumes for good control. Should I clip the falcata late Aug to early Sept? or just let it grow for the first year?

[dbltree]

Should I clip the falcata late Aug to early Sept? or just let it grow for the first year? <!-- / message -->

I clipped mine in late August but that leaves it kind of stemmy so I would either mow it off or leave it alone...;)

[whitetail fanatic]

Does anyone know where we can get any of the Haygrazer alfalfa seed?

[dgallow]

Does anyone know where we can get any of the Haygrazer alfalfa seed?

Not sure, but some of the Cimmaron distributors should be able to get it. Also contact Cimmaron directly. Please post what you find out! ;)

[dbltree]

My Falcata alfalfa is starting it's third year and looking well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Flacataalfalfa4-30.jpg

I have not used any fertilizer at all on this alfalfa simply because it already grows faster then they can eat it and I am curious how it will do. Falcata grows under difficult rangeland conditions so it certainly should do well on Iowa's fertile soils without much help...;)

[dgallow]

That is encouraging! :D Our spring falcata planting is still in the early trifoliate stages and small plants. Trying to be patient! :drink2:

[dbltree]

One thing to be aware of about Falcata alfalfa is that it is not improved like conventional alfalfas and therefore des not have bred in resistance to diseases and pests.

That is not to say it will just keel over and die but the long term affects in different areas of the nation are as yet unknown and landowners should just be aware of this when planting falcata.

In mid May the "bugs" are starting to eat mine...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Falcataalfalfa5-15.jpg

Not the end of the world of course but it does stress plants somewhat.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/Falcataalfalfa-1.jpg

Clovers on the other hand are rarely affected by either pests or disease and appear lush and healthy

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/AlicewhiteClover4-30.jpg

ISU agronomists have been working on improved varieties of falcata alfalfa so perhaps one day we'll have better seed available, for now however my falcata seems to be no worse for wear and deer seem to eat it just fine....bugs or no....;)

Alfalfa Pest Management (http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/selectnewpest.alfalfa-hay.html)