Clover

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, sorry to bug you on this, I just want to be clear on this. The treflan I'll be using is 2 #s active ingredient for every 10 #s of product. The label calls for 1# of product for every 1300 sq. Ft. For half an acre I was planning on using around 20 #s of product. Does this sound about right?

[dbltree]

The label I am reading says 5-7#'s per acre and that is what I am referring to as "product" the rest is water that you add as a carrier.

Weed Control In seedling Alfalfa (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld02R012.pdf)

You just have to know how much water your sprayer puts on per acre ;)

[KSQ2]

Okay, now I see the reason for the confusion. The product I'm using is in granular form and I'll be broadcasting it. I should have been more clear.

[dbltree]

Okay, now I see the reason for the confusion. The product I'm using is in granular form and I'll be broadcasting it. I should have been more clear.

Keep us posted on the Treflan works for you :way:

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, I managed to get the clover in the ground thursday. I overseeded the alice with a couple. Pounds of ladino. I applied innoculant to the ladino seed with some citris pop, is that going to hurt anything? After I did this I read on a post somewhere in this thread to use water and not soda. Thanks! I'll get some pictures up after the clover hopefully comes up.

[Boz]

Last year I planted WI Imperial clover, I know it was a rookie mistake, when planting I used Delta Ag seed coat and the plot turned out good and is doing good again this spring. This year in some new plots I'm using resolute and ladino, that I got from a local dealer. I also will be applying inoculation that I got from Welter Seed. We've fertilized and limed per soil test results but have this question, does anyone have an opinion about whether or not applying Delta Ag seed coat will help or harm? Is it good insurance or just another scam/waste of money?

[dbltree]

Last year I planted WI Imperial clover, I know it was a rookie mistake, when planting I used Delta Ag seed coat and the plot turned out good and is doing good again this spring. This year in some new plots I'm using resolute and ladino, that I got from a local dealer. I also will be applying inoculation that I got from Welter Seed. We've fertilized and limed per soil test results but have this question, does anyone have an opinion about whether or not applying Delta Ag seed coat will help or harm? Is it good insurance or just another scam/waste of money?

I have never used it so I can't honestly say but I suspect it's not needed yet not harmful either. Try some with and without and share the results with us :way:

[dbltree]

April 16th,2011

By late winter deer had scraped the Alice white clover literally to the dirt making one wonder if the clover could recover?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/C2-1.jpg

but unlike some of the over priced, less resilient "Buck on a Bag" clovers....Alice is indeed recovering!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2513.jpg

Where it was not damaged as badly it is already putting on rapid growth and still being grazed heavily.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2514.jpg

Good quality white clover is not cheap but...it's also not expensive compared to the highly advertised clovers that promise "Magic in a Bag"....;)

[KSQ2]

Looks great dbltree, gives me high hopes for this-coming year!

[ollie085]

What should plots that were frost-seeded look like right now?

[dbltree]

Here's a recent pic of red clover frost seeded into dead brassicas

http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx97/brownie9582/DSC01232.jpg

[ollie085]

If your's looks like that I may be in trouble.....

[Boz]

I've been planning on planting white clover/oats this weekend, but it doesn't look like mother nature is going to cooperate. Between the kid's soccer and baseball its going to be hard to find a weekend in May to plant. I've been looking through this post but haven't seen anything about when is it too late to spring plant clover? Any suggestions about how late into spring to plant vs. just giving up for the spring and waiting to fall plant with rye? I'd like to get more spring/summer food in, but am also willing to wait until fall.

[dbltree]

I've been planning on planting white clover/oats this weekend, but it doesn't look like mother nature is going to cooperate. Between the kid's soccer and baseball its going to be hard to find a weekend in May to plant. I've been looking through this post but haven't seen anything about when is it too late to spring plant clover? Any suggestions about how late into spring to plant vs. just giving up for the spring and waiting to fall plant with rye? I'd like to get more spring/summer food in, but am also willing to wait until fall.

You can plant well into summer but hat comes with risk of drought problems so just keep that in mind. Yet another example of why I avoid spring seedings...;)

[Andy in Ohio]

I planted 1.5 acres of alice white clover and rye as per your recomendation. My ground is very low bottom along the a creek near the Ohio river that floods EVERY spring usually between late Feb and early April. When the Ohio rises the water flows backward up the creek and floods the land. Usually it is flooded for a week in March and is usually plantable by mid to late May. Once dry in May, crops do well on it.

I have learned the hard way that frost seeding does not work very well if the field is flooded for extended periods of time after seeding and before warm up.

With really heavy March and record April rain, my field was under water for 16 days and then after a week has been underwater for another 10 days and counting. Most of the field was under 2-6 feet of water with the low spot under 10'.

My options are

1. Let it go for sping and have no food source other that random weeds. Spray round up in August to kill weeds and plant rye, Ground Hog FR and alice white / Alsike clover mix around labor day.

2. Plant Alice white clover and Alsike clover mix in mid May at the earliest. It sounds like Alsike survives flooding very well for a clover. I was thinking about 4 lbs alice and 4 pounds Alsike per acre. This will give a food source for spring and fall (hopefully).

Any suggestions? Any better ideas.

Thanks for you help.

Andy in Ohio

[dbltree]

I would plant in the fall to avoid problems with wet spring soils and then the established clover might stand a chance when it floods. Otherwise a short term summer crop like oats and berseem clover might work better for you.

[DH1]

Options for flooded out clover

Have you considered Birdsfoot Trefoil?

From what I've seen, some folks swear by it, while others swear at it...

pros:
- does well in wet areas
- university studies conclude it holds protein value better than alfalfa (for grazing)
- doesn't yield as much as alfalfa, (about 2/3) so over time should require less fertilizer, less maintenance/cutting
cons:
- seems to be round-up resistant and can take over areas if allowed (to prevent this you would have to cut it about 2-3 times per year to keep it from going to seed (about 70 days of growth)
- might be more work than clover, stands stay healthy when allowed to reseed every couple years

http://web1.msue.msu.edu/barrycty/factsheets/improvingpastureswithbirdsfoottrefoil.htm

[dbltree]

Birdsfoot Trefoil?

Here in Iowa deer rarely touch BFT although given no other option such as in forested areas with no other food sources, they will then feed on it.

BFT exists on my farms probably from decades ago when it was pastured and it does not like low wet areas so I doubt it would survive the kind of flooding mentioned in this case. It does do well on poor clay subsoils where other plants don't do well so worthy of consideration in those cases.

Sometimes one does have to try several options and see which one works best but I suspect alsike clover will be a better option in this case...;)

[Andy in Ohio]

Dblree & DH1 - Thanks for the help.

I will wait until August to spray roundup and disk and do rye, oats, GHFR, and Alice white clover. For 1/2 the plot I will use Alsike clover instead of Alice White in the section that gets flooded the most to see how it works.

Is there anything I could plant in May (alta sweed red clover or Berseem or alsike or ??) to have a food source for 3 months before I spray with roundup in August to plant the mix above?

I have an ATV with a small disc and a sprayer so I can't disc under anything substantial. It has to be dead and dry. I don't have a mower but can pay a neighbor to mow if really needed.

[dbltree]

Any of those would work but oats and berseem clover make a great summer food source and cover crop. Easy as pie to plant...scratch it up and plant! :way:

[dbltree]

May 2nd, 2011

The white clover is now lush and growing well and deer are grazing it heavily at this point. I rarely have to fertilize my clover other then at seeding but if yours is not thriving 200-400#'s of a low N fertilizer such as 6-24-24 and 400#'s of pellet lime will likely get your clover back on track.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2710.jpg

The cool season grasses try to invade this time of year but they can be easily wiped out with 8 ounces of clethodim and 1 quart of crop oil per acre. Another option is a very lite dose of 41% glyphosate at 1 pint or less per acre.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2709.jpg

Remember you don't need 40 acres of white clover, plant odd areas, field borders, apple orchards etc. and manage those smaller areas well. If you are constantly mowing your clover, that's a good indication you have far more then what deer can eat.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2721.jpg

Welter Seed has a great selection of clover seeds and will sell it by the pound

Clover seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

You can also check AMPAC for dealers like Welters in your area

AMPAC Seed (http://www.ampacseed.com/)

Here's an online source for clethodim

Clethodim grass selective herbicide source (http://www.ruralking.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=clethodim&x=24&y=11)

Crop oil should be available at your local co-op but if not...here's an online source

Crop Oil (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/peptoil-crop-oil-concentrate-1-gallon-65.html)

If you have problems with broadleaf weeds and don't have chicory mixed in, try some Butyrac 200 (2-4DB)

Butyrac 200 Herbicide (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/butyrac-200-herbicide-24db-herbicide-1-gallon-76.html)

Avoid less effective yet more expensive herbicides like Poast, Arrest and Slay (Slay is the same as Butyrac but far more expensive on a per acre basis). Always check locally for all your seed and herbicide needs but there are those across the country who do not live in ag country and having an online source comes in handy... ;)

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, do you know of any sources to purchase berseem clover in smaller quantities? Welters has it listed in 50 lb. bags. Do they sell in bulk? I think next year I'll be getting some for soil improvement purposes.

[dbltree]

Dbltree, do you know of any sources to purchase berseem clover in smaller quantities? Welters has it listed in 50 lb. bags. Do they sell in bulk? I think next year I'll be getting some for soil improvement purposes.

They sell all clover, alfalfa and brassica seeds in any amount, just call and tell them how many pounds of berseem you need and they'll fix you up...:way:

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, our clover is up and looking good, but I'm finding out where I got my poison ivy weeks ago. There's quite a bit coming up in the plot, and I was wondering if I could put some 2-4d on it before it really got going. I know I'll kill some clover right around the ivy, but I think I'm willing to sacrifice a little to kill the ivy out. What do you think?

[dbltree]

Dbltree, our clover is up and looking good, but I'm finding out where I got my poison ivy weeks ago. There's quite a bit coming up in the plot, and I was wondering if I could put some 2-4d on it before it really got going. I know I'll kill some clover right around the ivy, but I think I'm willing to sacrifice a little to kill the ivy out. What do you think?

I would mow the PI because 2-4D is death on clover...later on use a low dose of glyphosate on the PI rather then 2-4D...;)

[KSQ2]

Will mowing put a halt to the poison ivy growth, it won't spread at ground level? If so, that sounds good to me, I'd rather not even spot spray the 2-4d if I can avoid it.

[dbltree]

Will mowing put a halt to the poison ivy growth, it won't spread at ground level? If so, that sounds good to me, I'd rather not even spot spray the 2-4d if I can avoid it.

Probably not...that stuff is very invasive but mowing might at least control it until the clover is able to dominate and suffocate it on it's own. ;)

[dbltree]

When I was spraying full strength glyphosate (2 quarts per acre) on a field to prepare for RR soybeans, I swung a boom over a strip of white clover just for kicks....burned it pretty good so I'm observing it to see how well it comes back?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0043-1.jpg

Meanwhile sprayed some Alice white clover with clethodim to nip some invading grasses in the bud and my gosh is that clover thick!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2798.jpg

You can see why one needs only small areas of white clover because a little goes along long way!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2797.jpg

This is an old pasture that has never been farmed so it does take a little work to keep the grasses at bay

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2800.jpg

We'll see what they look like in a couple weeks...I ran out with a bit left to do in the center

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2801.jpg

White clover is an important tool in our food plot arsenal but no need for 10 acres of it! This 1/4 patch is part of 5 acres of strip plots where brassicas, cereal grains and no soybeans make up the rest of the plots.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CIMG2803.jpg

I have some Alice white clover I need to kill in a RR soybean field....might prove challenging, although I would be happy to just set it back and not actually kill it at all.... ;)

[dbltree]

May 26th, 2011

I sprayed 8 ounces of clethodim and 8 ounces of a concentrated crop oil on some white clover about 10 days ago. I sprayed along the edge of some winter rye and you can see how easily it's killed by the clethodim.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0042-1.jpg

The rye was heading out so pretty tall and mature yet clearly the clethodim easily nuked it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0043-2.jpg

In the clover itself the grasses are dead as a door nail!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0044-1.jpg

For less then 5 bucks an acre clethodim is by far one of the most effective yet least expensive grass selective herbicides safe on nearly all broadleaf plants!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0045-1.jpg

Last summer I shared pictures of tilling under beautiful white clover for cereal grains...something that raised a few eyebrows although the cost to establish white clover is minimal at best. This is that same clover now....despite being tilled under it rebounded and is thriving along with the winter rye planted last fall.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0060.jpg

I added some red clover with the rye/oats/peas and radish

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0061.jpg

but most of the clover is thicker then ever white clover, returned as though seeded a purpose!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_0062.jpg

It doesn't work the same way with brassicas because they are so thick the canopy shades out the clovers and they rarely return. In corn, soybeans and cereal grains however, disced or tilled under white clover will often reappear the following spring unless purposely killed with 2-4D or high doses of glyphosate and crop oil..... ;)

[Skinny10]

Hello, been following all the different threads for a while now, I'm addicted I think.

I was wondering if Butyrac 200 would take care of burdock in our clover plots, the label said cocklebur on there, but after looking up pictures of both, we definately have a burdock problem.

[dbltree]

Hello, been following all the different threads for a while now, I'm addicted I think.

I was wondering if Butyrac 200 would take care of burdock in our clover plots, the label said cockle bur on there, but after looking up pictures of both, we definitely have a burdock problem.

I think it would depend on the size of the plant but I believe if small enough it would kill it. You can also use a very light does of roundup (1 pint per acre) to kill tough broadleaf plants in clovers, it will burn the clover but not kill it...;)

[risto2351]

Paul,

I helped a buddy put in a clover, oasis chicory plot this spring.

I looked at it yesterday and the chicory is coming in fine but with the
cold spring I do not see much clover. There is a lot of grass.

Should he spray with clethodim (I assume clethodim it is okay for chicory) or should he
just let the grasses grow and clip them. They are pretty thick.

Maybe start over?

Thank you.

[dbltree]

Paul,

I helped a buddy put in a clover, oasis chicory plot this spring.

I looked at it yesterday and the chicory is coming in fine but with the
cold spring I do not see much clover. There is a lot of grass.

Should he spray with clethodim (I assume clethodim it is okay for chicory) or should he
just let the grasses grow and clip them. They are pretty thick.

Maybe start over?

Thank you.


I would spray with clethodim and clean it up Tony (it's safe on all broadleaves including chicory), the clover may yet take off ?

Whenever possible, fall seed clover with rye to avoid weed problems in the future...;)

[risto2351]

I would spray with clethodim and clean it up Tony (it's safe on all broadleaves including chicory), the clover may yet take off ?

Whenever possible, fall seed clover with rye to avoid weed problems in the future...;)

Thanks Paul,

I agree on the fall seedings.

I think the main problem was the cool spring.

This was actually frost seeded on a dirt bed.

I replanted a old clover plot a couple of weeks ago and with the
rain and warmer weather it is doing awesome.

Will the Clethodim hurt the younger clover and chicory?

Thank you.

[hornhntr]

"Dbltree, I have a Alice White clover field now, can i just rototill it up and seed winter rye or do i have to kill it? Will the clover come back or do I need to seed more clover with the rye? Thanks

[dbltree]

Will the Clethodim hurt the younger clover and chicory?

Nope..:)

"Dbltree, I have a Alice White clover field now, can i just rototill it up and seed winter rye or do i have to kill it? Will the clover come back or do I need to seed more clover with the rye? Thanks

Nope...don't have to kill it and that's the beauty of it! It will return the following spring! Check the cereal grain thread for more info...:way:

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, I'm officially sold on small clover plots, I should have started doing this three years ago! Oh well, here's a question for you. I plan to put in another plot this fall, about a quarter acre. I haven't been too happy with the performance of our drill lately, especially on uneven ground. Could I work the ground well, and broadcast the winter rye, prior to broadcasting the alice clover? If so, what should I cover the rye with before the initial cultipacking for clover? Will just an old harrow cover it sufficiently? Or should I disk lightly? If disking, how light?
One more question, the plot will be in virgin ground that will have been sprayed with gly, several weeks earlier. I'll be applying pell lime. Should I add some nitrogen, for the rye, to the p&k I will be adding? (I get all my fertilizer from the coop and apply it one at a time.) Thanks!

[dbltree]

Dbltree, I'm officially sold on small clover plots, I should have started doing this three years ago! Oh well, here's a question for you. I plan to put in another plot this fall, about a quarter acre. I haven't been too happy with the performance of our drill lately, especially on uneven ground.

Could I work the ground well, and broadcast the winter rye, prior to broadcasting the Alice clover?

That's what I always do


If so, what should I cover the rye with before the initial cultipacking for clover? Will just an old harrow cover it sufficiently? Or should I disk lightly? If disking, how light?
I usually just broadcast the large seeds like cereals and peas and then just cultipack to cover or lightly till/disc/drag then in and then cultipack but usually if the soil is loose and dry, just broadcast the seeds and cultipack. Don't cover seeds more then an inch deep


One more question, the plot will be in virgin ground that will have been sprayed with gly, several weeks earlier. I'll be applying pell lime.

Should I add some nitrogen, for the rye, to the p&k I will be adding? (I get all my fertilizer from the coop and apply it one at a time.)
The rye will be higher quality and a more lush, attractive food source with nitrogen added, anywhere from 50-200#'s of urea depending on soil quality and budget...;)

[dbltree]

June 26th, 2011

Folks often ask "what can I plant in areas that sustain flooding"...not many crops can tolerate being under water for any length of time but white clover apparently can! This pictures tell a story of not only how much water clover can take but the kind of serious flooding we have endured in SE Iowa, not only this year but for four years running!

June 6th the clover got clipped

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Mowingclover.jpg

Deer use the field heavily and returned immediately although you can see the area was already "muddy" from previous heavy rains

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover1-1.jpg

June 14th the water rose to a level that didn't cover the tops of the clover but no doubt the root systems were "waterlogged" to say the least.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Bob3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Bob4.jpg

June 20th the entire field is underwater

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Flood.jpg

This picture really gives you an idea how deep the water was!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Flood1.jpg

June 23rd I went in to spray the clover with clethodim and although it was still soggy I had no idea the whole place had been a lake a few days earlier.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover2-1.jpg

We have had repeated heavy rainfall events with 5-6" of rain on saturated soils, often only a week to 10 days apart so this field has endured flooding not only this year but repeatedly in past years, yet the clover appears to be thriving. It was planted by a previous landowner so I do not know the variety...only that it can stand being under water!

All of my white clovers have thrived the past few years thanks to cool wet weather and much of it on waterlogged soils. Seedling clovers will drown during establishment but established white and most red clovers love cool wet soils versus hot dry soil/weather.

If you have a spot that floods every now and then I would consider establishing white clover there by planting in late August with winter rye when weather is historically at it's driest. It's one crop I can honestly say will probably survive being under water for a day or so.... ;)

[dbltree]

I'm a firm believer in having white clover as a part of any given food plot even if it's only a small strip or edge because clover is capable of feeding a tremendous amount of deer almost year a round. Time after time I see landowners with wasted areas in a field and crops growing that only feed deer for a few months out of the year and simply converting those areas to clovers (if the soil and climate allow for it) can assure us that deer will be attracted to that feeding area year around, eventually becoming adapted to feeding only there.

These are pictures of odd areas around destination plot that will be yearly rotated between corn and beans...great crops that are very effective in attracting whitetails but...only providing feed for a portion of the year. Adding white clover will help us start to fill in the missing links to keeping them coming...every day, year around....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Odd%20areas/IMG_5341.jpg

I sprayed the areas with glyphosate to kill cool season grasses and blackberries and shrubs that had invaded

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Odd%20areas/IMG_5338.jpg

and then cleared the place with a brush cutter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Odd%20areas/IMG_5340.jpg

Narrow "edge" areas that have been in brome are perfect places to establish lush white clover without taking away from the original plot area. We'll start the white clover in late August with a rye/oats/pea planting and I'll share pictures as we get the area converted and fully used with a combination of food sources to attract and hold deer year around.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Odd%20areas/IMG_5339.jpg

Odd areas can of course be used for other food sources such as apple trees, oaks and chestnuts and we have already added those to this feeding area....one that will eventually have every deer in the area visiting it on a daily basis.... ;)

[dbltree]

July 10th, 2011

We are entering in to the hot and dry part of the summer for many of us which is not the best time to be clipping our clovers. When possible get them clipped (primarily for weeds) in June and then again in late August or early September unless you are blessed with plenty of rainfall through out the summer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Julyclover.jpg

I ordered clethodim from Rural King the other day and it was at my house in 2 days! Shipping was $19 and even at that, it's still the least expensive source I have found thus far.

Rural King - Source for clethodim (http://www.ruralking.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=clethodim&x=18&y=13)

Clethodim is of course a grass selective herbicide for those not familiar with it and Butyrac 200 is a broadleaf herbicide safe for use in clovers (not chicory)

Both clethodim (known as Select, Arrow, Shadow among others) and Butyrac 200 (2-4DB) are usually available at your local co-op but here is an online source for Butyrac as well.

Butyrac 200 source (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/butyrac-200-herbicide-24db-herbicide-2-5-gallons-77.html)

Use 8 ounces of clethodim per acre and 1 quart of crop oil for grass control and 1-3 quarts per acre of Butyrac 200. Mixing the two can reduce the effectiveness of the clethodim so where possible spray them separately. ;)

[dbltree]

It doesn't take much healthy white clover to keep a lot of deer fat and happy and coming back for more! I use even very narrow strips along the edge of food plots or corp fields next to edge feathered timber...like this strip...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5384.jpg

Combined with the abundant natural browse created by the edge feathering, it fulfills their needs nearly year around.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5385.jpg

In this picture you can see deer feeding in both the strip plot as well as the strip of clover along the timber in the background right side.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/ZA3Deerinclover.jpg

The lush clover helps keep deer from challenging the fenced soybeans, yet keeps them coming to a specific central feeding area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Z1.jpg

Don't overlook the value of clover in even the smallest amounts in tiny unused areas... ;)

[medicsnoke]

Dbltree,

I just closed on a 138 acre farm in Ohio, this will be the first time I can plant and manage my land for deer exactly how I want. The property was contracted to select cut before I bought the farm and he is moving out this week-end leaving me with lots of open dirt logging trails and some open dirt around the soy bean fields where he stacked/cut and loaded logs. I plan on ordering seed, Inoculate and herbicide this week. I have a few questions before I get started.

When should I spray the herbicide in relation to planting?

In the fields I plan on planting some clover with oat mix/ then a Brassica Mix.

I plan on using white and jumbo ladino clover at 5-8 lb. per acre ....but how much Oat seed do I mix to that?

The Brassica mix, does it need a Inoculate added to it as well? How about inoculate to Turnips

Will the Triple 19 Fertilizer work for both plots?

Also I would like to seed the logging trails.....can you recommend something that will grow good with little sunlight? Or is their no such thing?

[dbltree]

Dbltree,

I just closed on a 138 acre farm in Ohio, this will be the first time I can plant and manage my land for deer exactly how I want. The property was contracted to select cut before I bought the farm and he is moving out this week-end leaving me with lots of open dirt logging trails and some open dirt around the soy bean fields where he stacked/cut and loaded logs. I plan on ordering seed, Inoculate and herbicide this week. I have a few questions before I get started.

When should I spray the herbicide in relation to planting?

if the logging trails are nothing but dirt, spraying may not be needed. If they have a lot of cool season grasses then spray ASAP and give them 3-7 days before tilling.

In the fields I plan on planting some clover with oat mix/ then a Brassica Mix.

I plan on using white and jumbo ladino clover at 5-8 lb. per acre ....but how much Oat seed do I mix to that?

I use 60-80#'s of oats for a nurse crop or higher amounts if planting in the fall. See the cereal grain thread because there are more options for a late August seeding.

The Brassica mix, does it need a Inoculate added to it as well? How about inoculate to Turnips

No...brassicas are not legumes so they do not fix their own nitrogen. You need to add up to 200#'s of urea per acre to provide the needed nitrogen.

Will the Triple 19 Fertilizer work for both plots?

It will but you don't need nitrogen for clovers sow while it won't hurt, your paying for something you don't need. Triple 19 will work great for the brassicas but you'll need about 400#'s per acre.

Also I would like to seed the logging trails.....can you recommend something that will grow good with little sunlight? Or is their no such thing?

Clover may work if there is enough sunlight but if it's too shaded there is little that will really work well. Sometimes you just have to give it a try and see what happens.

You'll need plenty of pellet lime because timbered areas are usually very acidic.

Take a look thru the brassica and cereal grain threads for more on those crops, including recent posts for updated information. :way:

[jerred44]

It hasn't rained on my clover plots in Illinois for 3-4 weeks, but the weeds in one plot are still growing, and grass in the other, the clover looks ok considering no rain, but not great, should I wait for one good rain or can I spray to kill the weeds and grassses without stressing the clover? I would b spraying butyrac and clethodium. I dont think its supposed to rain for at least another week.

[dbltree]

It hasn't rained on my clover plots in Illinois for 3-4 weeks, but the weeds in one plot are still growing, and grass in the other, the clover looks ok considering no rain, but not great, should I wait for one good rain or can I spray to kill the weeds and grasses without stressing the clover? I would b spraying butyrac and clethodim. I don't think its supposed to rain for at least another week.

It will stress the clover spraying during a time when it is already under duress but probably not cause any real damage or harm if you want to spray now. The weeds really aren't causing any real harm either (short term) so you might weigh which is the lessor of two evils so to speak. ;)

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, at what rate do you frost seed alice into an existing alice plot? I just want to thickin it up a little bit. I'll be ordering from welters in about three weeks and want to order enough for frost seeding at the same time, that shipping isn't cheap!

[dbltree]

Dbltree, at what rate do you frost seed alice into an existing alice plot? I just want to thickin it up a little bit. I'll be ordering from welters in about three weeks and want to order enough for frost seeding at the same time, that shipping isn't cheap!

2-4#'s if it just has some thin spots...;)

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, I should have included this question in my last post, will I be alright purchasing Alice clover in August and planting it in Feb.? Also, is innoculant hard to find that time of year? What is its shelf life?

[Bowhunting_Madman]

This spring I created a new food plot and planted a clover and chicory mix. Due to unfortunate circumstances was not able to mow until early July...plot was covered with foxtail...at this point what is the best move to clean up plot? Spray now with Arrest? Till under, nuke with roundup and plant fall plot? I just want to get rid of the foxtail if possible!! Open to ideas and thoughts. Thanks!!

[LoessHillsArcher]

If you still have a good stand of clover and chicory you could spray the plot with 8oz per acre of Clethodim and some crop oil, should clean up any grasses very well for you!

[dbltree]

If you still have a good stand of clover and chicory you could spray the plot with 8oz per acre of Clethodim and some crop oil, should clean up any grasses very well for you!

I agree...spraying would be less likely to cause smothering of clover seedlings underneath. We've all "been there done that" but in the future give fall seeding a try by using winter rye and sowing your clover in late August...you will never again experience this problem....:way:

(read the cereal grain thread for more details)

[Bowhunting_Madman]

Absolutely will!!! I've read the DBLTree forum about 8 times through over last 2 months...just starting out it's trial and error til some experience is built.

Would Selectmax also be an option for spraying clover/chicory?

Thanks for the help!!!

[jerred44]

I know your supposed to rotate crops so u dont get disease on your plots, like with Brassicas. but what about clover? r u supposed to rotate clover with something else? I know my last clover plot lasted 5 or 6 years, should I have rotated something else in for a year before replanting clover?

[dbltree]

Would Selectmax also be an option for spraying clover/chicory?

You bet! Select Max is clethodim...a grass selective herbicide safe on broadleaf plants.

I know your supposed to rotate crops so u dont get disease on your plots, like with Brassicas. but what about clover? r u supposed to rotate clover with something else? I know my last clover plot lasted 5 or 6 years, should I have rotated something else in for a year before replanting clover?

It's always best to rotate ALL crops including clover...;)

[mshm99]

Rural King also sells bean oil at a good price.

http://www.ruralking.com/bean-oil-2-5-gallon.html

I heard you in St.Louis and learned a lot. Learned even more here.

Thank you for all your help.

Mike

[scottonbuck]

Paul I have a quick question for you, I sprayed for grasses in my clover roughly14 days ago but I have a nuisance weed/grass that I have forgotten the name to which has tried to take over during these wet springs. It looks like grass but the stem is a triangular shape. Aaron Palm told me what it was and I have forgotten. Anyways back to the question it seemed to survive a heavy dose of Select with the 2-4DB kill this stuff and not the clover. What are you thoughts and suggestions. It would make your job of answering easier if I could remember things. The select seemed to slow some down while majority of this plant is thriving.
Thanks in advance
James.

[dbltree]

Paul I have a quick question for you, I sprayed for grasses in my clover roughly14 days ago but I have a nuisance weed/grass that I have forgotten the name to which has tried to take over during these wet springs. It looks like grass but the stem is a triangular shape. Aaron Palm told me what it was and I have forgotten. Anyways back to the question it seemed to survive a heavy dose of Select with the 2-4DB kill this stuff and not the clover. What are you thoughts and suggestions. It would make your job of answering easier if I could remember things. The select seemed to slow some down while majority of this plant is thriving.
Thanks in advance
James.

It's nutsedge I'm sure...probably need to use something like Sedgehammer to kill it, it's not a "grass" so clethodim won't do the job. Glyphosate will kill it so sometimes a pint per acre on healthy white clover in the spring will do the trick without killing the clover but don't try it this time of year when it's under stress.

Should be a link to sedgehammer in the herbicide thread and here's a link to more info on sedges and herbicides that kill them.

The Best Herbicide for Sedge (http://www.ehow.com/facts_8190286_herbicide-sedge.html)

Just read labels and make sure they are safe to apply to broadleaves like clovers ;)

[dbltree]

July 24th, 2011

Drought periods can dramatically affect clovers and when searing hot sun sends temps near 100 for weeks combined with lack of rainfall, white clover begins to take on a "rust" color in it's leaves.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/7-18clover.jpg

This is often disconcerting to landowners concerned that their clover is dying but when rains and cooler temps return, so will the healthy color. In some cases in extremely droughty soils that lack organic matter the clover will appear to literally burn up and die but usually it just goes into a state of dormancy. This is a small area on an area of very poor subsoil clay that with plentiful rainfall can grow healthy clover...after nearly 4 weeks with out a drop of rain and blast furnace heat every day...it's going to "sleep" until things improve!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5524.jpg

This is the soil...about as poor clay as you can find

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5525.jpg

Cracks big enough to slip your hand in!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5528.jpg

A few yards away however where the soil is better the clover looks much better

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5526.jpg

and in slightly lower areas with more moisture both white and red clovers look great!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5527.jpg

I prefer drought resistant clovers such as Alice and Durana on areas with poor drought prone soils because they will survive while clovers marketed by WTI, Biologic and others literally wither and die.

Here's a link to more infor on drought and white clovers Sensitivity of net photosynthesis to soil drought in white clover (http://www.fao.org/docrep/V2350E/v2350e0y.htm)

Studys on Adaptability of White Clower (Trifolium Repens L) to Drought Stress (http://www.latest-science-articles.com/Agricultural_Science/Studys-on-Adaptability-of-White-Clower--Trifolium-Repens-L--to-Drought-Stress-2131.html)

Try to avoid mowing your clover during periods of extreme drought stress if you can avoid it.... ;)

[Nontypcl1]

Glyphosate will kill it so sometimes a pint per acre on healthy white clover in the spring will do the trick

I have sprayed a lot of nutsedge and have never had gly give a good kill on it. It will kill some but usually will only yellow it and then in a few weeks the nutsedge starts to green up again. That is with 2qts/acre + AMS + crop oil. I also sprayed my white clover this spring at 1qt per acre gly with AMS and crop oil and it nuked all the weeds except nutsedge. If it were me I would definitely look into sedgehammer if you really want to get rid of it. Otherwise IMHO you will continue to have the same problems.

[scottonbuck]

All this rain around the area today and not a drop on any of my plots. Its like we have a bubble over us that the rain showers seem to just hit and go around. We went to Burlington yesterday to watch the races and they were rained out, ditches full of water and at home we got squat. Rained a little at my house this morning but like I said not a drop where I needed it. I look at the radar untill Im blue in the face and when I think its a sure bet we will get rain it changes or disipates.

[dbltree]

All this rain around the area today and not a drop on any of my plots. Its like we have a bubble over us that the rain showers seem to just hit and go around. We went to Burlington yesterday to watch the races and they were rained out, ditches full of water and at home we got squat. Rained a little at my house this morning but like I said not a drop where I needed it. I look at the radar untill Im blue in the face and when I think its a sure bet we will get rain it changes or disipates.

Ha! I guess that makes two of us "watching the radar"...got barely a couple tenths here but darn glad for it!

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, I know you've been asked this a million times, but here it goes again. It's pretty late in the summer, and my clover is kind of coming out of summer dormancy. It's been pretty dry down this way, but we've gotten a few little rains lately. As far as I can tell, the clover is all at ground level, at its tallest, its only two inches tall. The weeds have shot up over it about 10-12 inches. If the clover is that short at this point anyway, could I go ahead and clip the weeds? Will it hurt the clover at all? I can't imagine the blades even touching it to be honest.

[dbltree]

The weeds have shot up over it about 10-12 inches. If the clover is that short at this point anyway, could I go ahead and clip the weeds? Will it hurt the clover at all? I can't imagine the blades even touching it to be honest.

Go ahead and clip the weeds...had to do mine despite being so dry but as you mention...didn't even touch the clover itself...;)

[tommyls1313]

Dbltree I've got 2 weekends I can plant my white clover/winter rye combo. A week from now 19th-21st or Sept 9th-11th. A week from now is more convient for me but I can manage the Sept dates. In your opinion which dates would you shoot for? I'm afraid next weekend is to early for the rye and the Sept to late for the clover.

Thanks for all your help,
Tommy Thompson

[dbltree]

Dbltree I've got 2 weekends I can plant my white clover/winter rye combo. A week from now 19th-21st or Sept 9th-11th. A week from now is more convient for me but I can manage the Sept dates. In your opinion which dates would you shoot for? I'm afraid next weekend is to early for the rye and the Sept to late for the clover.

Thanks for all your help,
Tommy Thompson

It's so dry that I doubt you will get much germination anyway, so go ahead and plant the 21st and it should work out ok for you.

[tommyls1313]

Dry is an understatement. Thanks Dbltree

[Darron]

July 24th, 2011

Drought periods can dramatically affect clovers and when searing hot sun sends temps near 100 for weeks combined with lack of rainfall, white clover begins to take on a "rust" color in it's leaves.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/7-18clover.jpg

This is often disconcerting to landowners concerned that their clover is dying but when rains and cooler temps return, so will the healthy color. In some cases in extremely droughty soils that lack organic matter the clover will appear to literally burn up and die but usually it just goes into a state of dormancy. This is a small area on an area of very poor subsoil clay that with plentiful rainfall can grow healthy clover...after nearly 4 weeks with out a drop of rain and blast furnace heat every day...it's going to "sleep" until things improve!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5524.jpg

This is the soil...about as poor clay as you can find

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5525.jpg

Cracks big enough to slip your hand in!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5528.jpg

A few yards away however where the soil is better the clover looks much better

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5526.jpg

and in slightly lower areas with more moisture both white and red clovers look great!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5527.jpg

I prefer drought resistant clovers such as Alice and Durana on areas with poor drought prone soils because they will survive while clovers marketed by WTI, Biologic and others literally wither and die.

Here's a link to more infor on drought and white clovers Sensitivity of net photosynthesis to soil drought in white clover (http://www.fao.org/docrep/V2350E/v2350e0y.htm)

Studys on Adaptability of White Clower (Trifolium Repens L) to Drought Stress (http://www.latest-science-articles.com/Agricultural_Science/Studys-on-Adaptability-of-White-Clower--Trifolium-Repens-L--to-Drought-Stress-2131.html)

Try to avoid mowing your clover during periods of extreme drought stress if you can avoid it.... ;)

One of my clover plots look like the one above that is burned up. Do you suggest possibly broadcasting some more clover into it this fall or maybe even winter rye to "green" it up a little?

[dbltree]

One of my clover plots look like the one above that is burned up. Do you suggest possibly broadcasting some more clover into it this fall or maybe even winter rye to "green" it up a little?

You can....but it will probably rebound with cooler, wetter weather as we go into September. It usually goes dormant despite looking "dead" nothing wrong with overseeding both rye and clover in to it however. ;)

[dbltree]

August 21st, 2011

Anyone needing clethodim might want to take advantage of free shipping this week at Rural King...if anyone knows of a better deal then this on clethodim...please post it up in this thread!

Rural King Clethodim (http://www.ruralking.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=clethodim&x=35&y=10)

It's only a week long special so don't put it off...

I sow all of my clovers and alfalfa's with winter rye in late summer/early fall and we're ready to get started seeding this coming week. This is an example of using the areas around fields or plots and along timber edges to establish white clover...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Cloveredge.jpg

White clover is a crucial element in any habitat program where it can be grown...clover doesn't do well on sandy dry soils but otherwise will thrive across much of the nation. I rely on it to hold deer on my property year around and even a small strip can keep them happy! (ignore the clump of weeds... :oops: :D )

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deerinclover.jpg

Remember to sow your larger seeds first, cultipack (firm soil with ATV tires or some such if you lack a cultipacker) and then broadcast clover seeds and repeat the firming process to cover in the top 1/8" to 1/4" of soil. Failures are often a result of burying the tiny seeds to deep so use caution not to drag or disc clover seeds in... ;)

[Daver]

Paul - I have a couple of clover fields that are more weedy, although not necessarily grassy, than they should be. I mowed them this weekend which will knock the broadleaves back, but would it also be a good idea to spruce up the plot with some overseeded clover now or frost seed some more clover in March?

[huntyak]

Paul - I have a couple of clover fields that are more weedy, although not necessarily grassy, than they should be. I mowed them this weekend which will knock the broadleaves back, but would it also be a good idea to spruce up the plot with some overseeded clover now or frost seed some more clover in March?

Dave-I have had the same problems in the past and seemed to just waste seed by adding more now. I usually mowed and sprayed now, then frost seeded that winter. Each time it came back thick and a great second year stand :)

I dont think you'll hurt anything, but likely wont help at this time but again-I am a rookie :D

[Daver]

Dave-I have had the same problems in the past and seemed to just waste seed by adding more now. I usually mowed and sprayed now, then frost seeded that winter. Each time it came back thick and a great second year stand :)

I dont think you'll hurt anything, but likely wont help at this time but again-I am a rookie :D

Thanks, that is about what I thought, but I also know that Paul has recommended establishing new clover stands in mid-to-late summer and I thought this might help.

[dbltree]

Thanks, that is about what I thought, but I also know that Paul has recommended establishing new clover stands in mid-to-late summer and I thought this might help.

I do...but those are tilled/conventionally planted clover stands Dave, overseeding can work anytime of year IF all the conditions are right but often one might have the same results as Eyad.

I overseed red clover with pretty good results in the fall but not into established clover, so you'll probably have better results frost seeding in your case...especially with the current dry conditions...;)

[Scott]

My clover looks terrible. Burned up and lots of weeds. Scared to mow it due to stressing it more. Am I right to wait to mow until things cool down and we get some rain?

[risto2351]

August 21st, 2011

Anyone needing clethodim might want to take advantage of free shipping this week at Rural King...if anyone knows of a better deal then this on clethodim...please post it up in this thread!

Rural King Clethodim (http://www.ruralking.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=clethodim&x=35&y=10)

It's only a week long special so don't put it off...



Paul,
How long will Clethodim last?

[dbltree]

My clover looks terrible. Burned up and lots of weeds. Scared to mow it due to stressing it more. Am I right to wait to mow until things cool down and we get some rain?

Yes...I would wait or raise the mower up above the clover and clip the weeds off Fred.


How long will Clethodim last?

I assume you man in storage Tony? I'm guessing several years but I really don't know if it has a shelf life or not? I don't recall reading anything on the label and I have used mine from the same jug for two years now...;)

[Boz]

Here is Sweet Spot High Sugar ryegrass/clover/chicory mix one year after being established.

I can't say it is better or worse then any other clover mix but the high sugar ryegrass seems to be very attractive to deer and there are high quality clovers and chicory in the mix to boot. Sweet Spot is carried at many seed retailers such as Welter Seed so check with your local seed source... ;)

Dbltree - the owner of one of the properties I hunt just had a new pond built and We are looking for a perennial that will control erosion and feed deer at the same time. would Sweet Spot Northern mix be a viable option for planting on the dam and around the banks? Or should we go with some other rye/clover mix?

[risto2351]

Dbltree - the owner of one of the properties I hunt just had a new pond built and We are looking for a perennial that will control erosion and feed deer at the same time. would Sweet Spot Northern mix be a viable option for planting on the dam and around the banks? Or should we go with some other rye/clover mix?

Just wanted to throw my .02 in here.

I planted Alice White by itself around my pond and it has
grown beautifully and the deer love it.

[LoessHillsArcher]

Throwing in rye never hurts especially for errosion purposes, it grows fast, will help hold dirt, and help hold down the weed pressure on the young clovers! That's what we've had luck with in the past. Seed it with in the next couple weeks I'd say

[Boz]

Throwing in rye never hurts especially for errosion purposes, it grows fast, will help hold dirt, and help hold down the weed pressure on the young clovers! That's what we've had luck with in the past. Seed it with in the next couple weeks I'd say

Thanks, I plan on planting Labor day weekend with another rye/pea/oat/clover plot that I have to do down there.

Will clover (by itself after rye dies out) around a pond work?

[LoessHillsArcher]

Thanks, I plan on planting Labor day weekend with another rye/pea/oat/clover plot that I have to do down there.

Will clover (by itself after rye dies out) around a pond work?

If you can clip it with a mower I see no reason why not!

[Boz]

Thanks! Might just go with that then

[Daver]

If you can clip it with a mower I see no reason why not!

I had a small pond built a few years ago and I have clover around it. For the most part it is all good, but the deer will have that clover cropped SHORT by the end of the winter, as in mainly all dirt, and then if you get some heavy snow melt or spring rains before it can get growing again you can get some erosion.

I have since gone with about a 10 foot buffer ringing the pond with regular grass and then clover outside of that. It seems to be a better way than clover right up to the edge of the water.

[dbltree]

September 1st, 2011

Early fall is my favorite time to establish clovers....rarely do we have wet weather to contend with, weeds are never a problem and sowed with winter rye there are usually few if any weeds the following spring.

I broadcast the rye, oats and peas first and lightly till them in while pulling the cultipacker behind or if the soil is loose I just let the tiller free wheel over the soil followed by the packer. Even then a few seeds don't get covered the first time and you can just barely see the tiny clover seeds next to the larger seeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5947.jpg

After cultipacking the first time I either broadcast with a bag seeder or ATV seeder

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5941.jpg

I usually set the broadcasters on the light side and sow seeds first one way and then go back over it cross ways for more even coverage.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5946.jpg

Once the seed is on we go back over it with the cultipacker with the tiller raised up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5945.jpg

The second pass will usually cover any remaining large seeds although with plentiful rainfall they will germinate right on the surface

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5944.jpg

In this case you can see the cross track pattern for even coverage, not necessary with a drill of course.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5942.jpg

I usually go around the perimeter with both white and red clover and sow white clover in any odd areas, corners or edges difficult to work. That white clover will feed deer nearly year around and is the first thing they feed on when entering the field

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5943.jpg

After sowing 12 acres of rye/oats/peas/GHFR and clovers...we got 2" of rain and the dust is no longer flying! :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_5948.jpg

Sow white clovers at roughly 6#'s per acre and red clovers at 12-15# an acre or mix the two at slightly lower rates...no other crop other then alfalfa will provide so much high quality, high protein forage for such a long period of time... ;)

[risto2351]

My first year clover was looking pretty weedy until and gave it a good haircut.

Clover and Chicory

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09904-1.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09905.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09906.jpg



Alice white around my pond.

This is a second year crop that took a beating by the deer last fall.
With the recent rains I bet it is filling in nice.



http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09933.jpg

[Sligh1]

Risto- looks good! I think Chicory is about the only thing I haven't planted... How's that compare to other things, how do deer like it and when do they peak on eating it? Looks good!

[dbltree]

Lookin' good Tony! :way:

[6x6]

I like my clover and chickory mixes. Even fields that dont need mowing in the summer, the chickory takes up the slack when the clovers are stressed from the heat. The deer eat the heck out of it even when its getting tall and tough, flowering.

[risto2351]

Risto- looks good! I think Chicory is about the only thing I haven't planted... How's that compare to other things, how do deer like it and when do they peak on eating it? Looks good!

Skip,
Like 6 x 6 said it is very drought resistant and the deer love it.
I have another 1/2 acre field that was overgrown with foxtail that I
could not cut because both brush hogs were down. When I was able
to cut it the chicory is flourishing. I will frost seed this spring and should
be good to go. Tough stuff.

[dbltree]

September 29th, 2011

The severe drought in SE Iowa was really hard on the white clover and most of it was pretty dormant thru the heat of the summer. With cooler weather and a little rain it's starting to come back and even though it doesn't look like much it's amazing how much deer utilize white clover even though they have soybeans, brassicas and other food sources only feet away.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/zb1.jpg

Alice white clover really shines during droughts that will often kill "Buck on a Bag" clovers

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/zb2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/zb3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/zb4.jpg

White clover provides the missing link to provide a food source nearly year around and when combined with winter rye plantings the gap is completely closed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/zb5.jpg

Always make an effort to keep 10-20% of every plot in white clover, less if red clover is used with the rye combination and a little more in corn/soybean fields.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/zb6.jpg

Start white clover in late August with the winter rye combination and you will avoid problems with wet weather and weeds and have a beautiful lush clover patch the following spring! :way:

[dbltree]

October 9th, 2011

It's been an abnormally dry fall here in SE Iowa so depending on the area and rain received germination has been slow in some places although all in all not to bad. The tiny clover plants however may germinate and die if dry weather persists so I'll have to keep an eye on some areas and frost seed additional clover if need be.

The great thing about establishing clovers with rye in the fall is...no weeds to contend with and the rye/oats/peas and radish keeps deer fed while the clover is becoming established.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c5-1.jpg

White clover around the perimeter is a great way to have something for deer to eat year around including something the second they step into the field which helps take the pressure off from other crops.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c3-2.jpg

White cover is better able to deal with some shade and low nitrogen along a timber or fence line when compared to most other crops and a great crop to plant in odd areas of the field which then allows us to have multiple crops in one centralized feeding area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c4-2.jpg

I always establish white clover with the winter rye/oat/forage pea/forage radish combination and add red clover as well. Generally the red clover will not last more then two years leaving the white clover to take over. A side note here is that the rye is being grazed heavily despite being immediately beside standing soybeans and corn and in time the clover will be as well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c2-2.jpg

The tiny clovers need about 6 weeks before hard killing freezes in the fall but certainly will tolerate light frosts. In the spring the clover will explode to life and usually will out compete any weeds at that time, the exception is perennial grasses which are easily controlled with clethodim.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c1-2.jpg

Clovers are an extremely important yet economical tool that each landowner should utilize in every plot or field. As you can see even a narrow band along the edge, waterways or odd areas can be planted and even 1-2% of a field planted to well fertilized clover can feed a tremendous amount of whitetails.

I use red clovers primarily for a plow down and temporary food source and white clovers for perennial food sources but they can be combined and Alsike clover along with a number of annual clovers that include Berseem, Crimson, Persian, Arrowleaf and more can be incorporated into your habitat program.

If you forgot to include clover with your fall cereal planting...consider frost seeding it late this winter...your deer and your soils will be glad you did... ;)

[huntdoc]

Property where I hunt was just select harvested by a timber company in the last few weeks. Several areas have been opened up and new logging roads with exposed dirt. I thought I would try seeding the ones with adequate sun in areas near stands. Is it too late to bother with now? We have already had one frost. SHould I mess with any rye, or just wait and frost seed. These areas are hard to get to so they will be managed with backpack sprayer and a weedeater.

[risto2351]

Property where I hunt was just select harvested by a timber company in the last few weeks. Several areas have been opened up and new logging roads with exposed dirt. I thought I would try seeding the ones with adequate sun in areas near stands. Is it too late to bother with now? We have already had one frost. SHould I mess with any rye, or just wait and frost seed. These areas are hard to get to so they will be managed with backpack sprayer and a weedeater.

I would save your time and energies until late winter for frost seeding.

I planted rye and GFR four weeks ago and with some rain it
still is not thriving. Getting colder and shorter days.
Just my opinion though.

[dbltree]

Property where I hunt was just select harvested by a timber company in the last few weeks. Several areas have been opened up and new logging roads with exposed dirt. I thought I would try seeding the ones with adequate sun in areas near stands. Is it too late to bother with now? We have already had one frost. SHould I mess with any rye, or just wait and frost seed. These areas are hard to get to so they will be managed with backpack sprayer and a weedeater.

As mentioned...to late for clover at this point and better off waiting to frost seed. Rye could be broadcast and it would grow but probably not enough to make any grazing this fall...;)

[dbltree]

October 29th, 2011

White clover...simply one of the most economical yet most effective food sources we can plant to help attract and hold whitetails on our property year around. Planted in a safe well screened centralized feeding area it is a fantastic tool to help in our endeavor to provide year around food sources.

On every farm, every patch of white clover is obviously heavily grazed...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_6306.jpg

and it takes only very small areas to keep a lot of deer content and coming back for more...here white clover is part of a 3 way strip crop planting that provides white clover, rye/oats/peas/radish and red clover and a strip of brassicas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/zx6.jpg

The rye mix and brassicas are rotated yearly but the clover remains until it thins and I moved all of the strips over and plant brassicas in the old clover patch and re-establish new white clover in the fall with the rye mix.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6514.jpg

This 170+" mature buck refuses to leave his sanctuary in the surrounding native grass stands except to feed in this small patch of Alice, KopuII and Jumbo Ladino white clover even though there are plenty of other food sources on the farm.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/Buckeye3.jpg

Don't make the mistake of planting 10 acres of white clover...10-20% of your food sources should be in white clover and in all but rare cases with extremely high deer densities that is more then enough. Don't make the mistake of thinking that highly touted "Buck on a Bag" clover seed is required to hold deer because in reality most of it is not drought resistant nor capable of withstanding heavy grazing. Provide outstanding bedding cover and safe sanctuary such as the buck above has and they will happily use any brand or variety or VNS white clover. A few I recommend are Alice, Durana, Patriot, KopuII and Jumbo Ladino but there are many many more that will work equally as well.

Clover Seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

[Hardwood11]

Wow, is that a giant buck! Good luck with him.

[Qdmaer]

If i have 8 acres of alfalfa should i bother planting 2 more acres of clover?

[dbltree]

If i have 8 acres of alfalfa should i bother planting 2 more acres of clover?

Not unless you have a hidden area where deer might be likely to gather before dark....remember the location of the food source and the surrounding cover are far and away more important then the kind of food,

The spot shown in the post above is still holding some giant deer but not because of the clover, they would be there regardless of type of food. The combination of outstanding cover in the form of CIR switchgrass and small areas of thick timber in a secluded undisturbed area of the farm are the reasons they are there and then they take advantage of the small clover plot there.

I want to re-enforce the fact that deer are OPPORTUNISTIC...they will take advantage of whatever food source you plant as long as it's there year around and they can stay close to a bedding area.

Clover and alfalfa are two crops that come close to feeding deer year around although the type of alfalfa planted (subject to winter dormancy and date of last mowing) will affect the length of time it is effective.

All that said I would never plant 2 acres of clover...I would plant 10/20% of that field to white clover and divide the rest between brassicas and the winter rye combination...the combination of all of those crops will then provide food year around...:way:

[letemgrow]

Not unless you have a hidden area where deer might be likely to gather before dark....remember the location of the food source and the surrounding cover are far and away more important then the kind of food,



Exactly, they will feed where they feel safe and where they have been feeding over the years...no matter what food source is there...as long as there is one they can eat.

Those centralized food plots are the ticket to keep deer on a farm and coming to the food. Once they start, they will continue to them no matter if its rye, corn, beans, brassicas, clover etc.

[dbltree]

December 6th, 2011

The power of a simple easy to grow crop like white clover is amazing yet so many people forget to incorporate it into their single, centralized feeding area (where soils and climate allow) This field is surrounded by cover (perfect!!) on 3 sides and screened with Egyptian Wheat and red cedars on the 4th and is being grazed very hard.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/clover.jpg

I would prefer to see other crops added to this field so that it will hold and attract deer year around but it is interesting to note that this clover is immediately adjacent to a large alfalfa field, yet they are focusing on the clover.

New feeding areas are sometimes ignored the first year because doe groups are adapted to feeding on ag fields, re-growth in a clear cut or some such but white clover helps adapt them to feeding in your new plot. Lactating does don't travel far so if there is cover (and there should ALWAYS be outstanding cover surrounding your feeding area in the form of thick brushy timber or NWSG) surrounding the feeding area and it contains white clover, they will quickly take advantage of this high quality food source.

it doesn't take much....an 8' strip around the perimeter, odd corners of the field, waterways or simply dividing the field into strips of which 10-20% can be white clover. The rest should be a combination of brassicas, rye mix, soybeans, corn, milo etc. with a goal of year around food sources.

Planting an entire field to white clover is not the answer either because eventually they will scrape the last morsel from the frozen soil and be forced to move elsewhere and that's the LAST thing we want! Having crops like winter rye and big turnip roots to carry them thru will insure they don't become adapted to the...neighbors place..... ;)

[huntdoc]

Property I have permission to hunt was just logged and left some small openings that I am planning to frost seed to clover. Besides clearing larger stuff like logs, how much should I clear the leaf litter to expose the dirt? I have enough time that I think I can do a moderate amount of prep by hand before winter is over.

[dbltree]

Property I have permission to hunt was just logged and left some small openings that I am planning to frost seed to clover. Besides clearing larger stuff like logs, how much should I clear the leaf litter to expose the dirt? I have enough time that I think I can do a moderate amount of prep by hand before winter is over.

The seed will work it's way down thru dead grass but not thru compacted leaves so clear the litter off and be sure to add lime and fertilizer because the soil will likely be very acidic and nutrient starved....;)

[dbltree]

December 26th, 2011

The best method of establishing white clover by far, is to plant it in late August/early September with the winter rye combination mix. No flooding rains, mud, weeds etc. to deal with and 9 times out of 10 you'll have a successful seeding that will be outstanding in the spring. Fall droughts are not as common as summer but they do happen and this year we had a bad on across much of the Midwest and lower plains states and because of flooding spring rains it seemed it was one of those "danged if I do and danged if I don't" scenarios.

Some of our fall seeded white clover received enough rain to germinate and put down roots while other fields germinated and then died from lack of sufficient rainfall. All is not lost however because we can easily frost seed some some additional clover seed (white, red or alsike) and end up with a great clover seeding in the spring. Frost seeding into the winter rye means you will still encounter less weed problems and not have to deal with mud and rains on you weekend off. Simply clip the rye off in late spring or spray it with clethodim anytime up to a foot high or so.

The rye combination mix that received decent rain is going to have a great clover stand in the spring....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover1-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover2-2.jpg

If your clovers didn't make it, frost seed at 6-8#'s of white clover or 12-15#'s of red (or some combination of both)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover3.jpg

My goal is to have a 30-50' strip all the way around each feeding area (one per 80-120 acres) so it is easy to broadcast seed by hand or with an ATV spreader around the perimeter.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover4.jpg

Remember that white clover is an essential part of our goal of adapting deer to coming to one place year around but because white clover is very productive we only need 10-20% of the feeding area in white clover. This pic shows the rye/oats/peas and clover mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clovernpeas.jpg

The reason I add oats rather then all rye is because the oats will freeze out in late December leaving the winter hardy cereal rye to feed deer all winter and then provide weed control thanks to the allelopathic chemicals in the root systems. The rye/oats/peas/radish/clover mix provides outstanding grazing literally all fall, winter, spring and summer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Cloverseedinginrye.jpg

Drought resistant clovers like Alice and Durana along with Kopu II and Jumbo Ladino are all great white clovers to consider and a fraction of the price of "buck on a bag" clover seed that will often not survive severe droughts.

Check with your local seed supplier/co-op but if you cannot find it in your area Welter Seed and Des Moines Forage and Turf sell clover seed by the pound and will ship to your door.

Clover seed source (http://welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Clover is very important but it can't meet our goals of year around feed by itself...the following is a combination of crops that can...


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year


The "Getting Started" thread has many aerial pictures/examples of planting all the crops within one field with recent posts on page two.

Getting Started (http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3063)

Planning your habitat program out will help avoid later regrets and that thread will help get you on the right track.... ;)

[crs740]

Do you fertilze the white clover the following spring after you plant it in the fall? What setting do you set your bag seeder to when spreading clover seed? I screwed up this year by having to big of an opening.

[huntyak]

I am in the same boat. Have a few fields that were planted this spring and some this fall. Will be frost seeding but 1-2 fields grew poorly. Can we spread fertilizer over the established clover now, after frost seeding etc? I also assume no N is needed as it fixes this element?

[Scott]

Wont you get better germination if you start over as opposed to frost seeding? I have an area that got nuked during the drought and I am wondering if it would be better to start over. Seems like the soil has gotten very hard and tilling it up again would make for a better seed bed.

[huntyak]

Wont you get better germination if you start over as opposed to frost seeding? I have an area that got nuked during the drought and I am wondering if it would be better to start over. Seems like the soil has gotten very hard and tilling it up again would make for a better seed bed.

It may, but then you risk weed growth/competition by tilling/planting this spring and few things in my experience, limited as it is, has worked as well as frost seeding clover, even over a poor fall planting :)

Hopefully Dbtree chimes in:way:

[Daver]

Wont you get better germination if you start over as opposed to frost seeding? I have an area that got nuked during the drought and I am wondering if it would be better to start over. Seems like the soil has gotten very hard and tilling it up again would make for a better seed bed.

Although I am still learning this food plot game and do NOT consider myself an expert like Dbltree, but one thing that I think is a virtual guarantee...if you till a field you are going to get a full onslaught of weed growth, especially if you do this in the spring or early summer.

Of course you can then mow, spray, etc, the weeds to control them, but I think you are better off to frost seed later this winter if your ground is bare now. Whatever weeds you still may see would then be much more easily controlled by mowing or spraying.

I also would not worry about soil hardness now as you only want the tiny clover seed in the top 1/4" of the soil anyway, which is exactly where frost seeding will leave it.

[Sligh1]

Nice thing about clover- its gonna b one of the 1st things to green up so u should l know really early if it's in good shape. I'd frost seed. If its crap once things green up- plan b. but frost seeding is cheap and will help along previously planted clover. Hardy stuff- u may b surprised how much made it.
No N needed. U r good to put p&k right on it.

[huntyak]

p&k right on it.

What amount per acre Skip and what % ?

Also,do you just put in a spreader and let her rip? Will winter work or wait until spring?

Thanks for the help!

[Sligh1]

U can put on any time really. Ya- just toss in spreader. I usually fertilize mine in April but suppose any time would be ok. Correct answer on how much is to soil test. Pry need pell-lime too. Good to get printout. But- if u r gonna Wing it and take lazy man route- 200-300 lbs of p&k of a higher # but if its like a low # u'll need more. Like let's say it was 0-13-13 u obviously would need a lot more- like 500 lbs. I always get high # stuff. Again- correct answer is soil test. I'll b honest- clover is the 1 thing I occasionally get lazy with because it's so robust but I plan on getting out this yr and getting soil samples and reports an adding correct p&k and lime. Which any agronomist can tell u in 2 seconds exactly what's needed once u have report.

[huntyak]

Thanks Skip. Yeah, I agree, will soil test, and then know for sure.

[dbltree]

Do you fertilize the white clover the following spring after you plant it in the fall? What setting do you set your bag seeder to when spreading clover seed? I screwed up this year by having to big of an opening.

I fertilize in the fall when I seed but if you did not do it then, as Skip mentioned...put it on anytime winter or spring along with lime.

When sowing any small seeds with a bag seeder, I put a few seeds in the seeder, then open the gate just enough so the seeds can just pass thru. Set the adjustment set screw and seed. Clover can be overseeded without hurting anything other then wasting seed and running out before your finished.

Wont you get better germination if you start over as opposed to frost seeding? I have an area that got nuked during the drought and I am wondering if it would be better to start over. Seems like the soil has gotten very hard and tilling it up again would make for a better seed bed.


if you look at my previous post Fred, I am going to be frost seeding a lot of mine for the same reasons and "hard soil" is not a factor at all and in fact on the surface there is no such thing. Freezing and thawing will help the tiny clover seeds make soil contact and along with late winter rains and melting snows will soften the soil surface. Frost seeding works very well, although I usually add 10-20% more seed.

Skip already covered most questions here very well but for those of you in the SE Iowa area I would just add that Aaron Palm from Iowa Missouri Hybrids in Keosauqua carries bagged 6-28-28 and pel lime along with KopuII white clover seed, less expensive ladino white clover and red clover seed. It's not always easy to find bagged fertilizers so if you can't find it close to home give Aaron a call.

Eyad...your soil is pretty poor from abuse and very low soil organic matter so as Skip mentions do a soil test (for alfalfa) but on that soil I suspect you will need 400#'s of 6-28-28 and 400-500 #'s of pel lime.

Request soil sample sheets from ISU soils lab along with soil sample bags.

ISU Soil Lab (http://www.agron.iastate.edu/soiltesting/)

Remember to take multiple samples across the field as per these recommendations.

Take a Good Soil Sample (excerpts from Pm-287, Take a Good Soil Sample)

Select sampling areas within a field. Ideally, samples should represent a uniformsoil area of 10 acres or less. Although high fertilizer and/or manure rates may mask initialsoil fertility differences that are due to soil type, organic matter levels are closely related to the soil mapping units. Base the selection of each sampling area on a recent soil surveymap that is made up of mapping units. Individual sampling areas should be distinguished
by soil type, slope phase, and erosion phase.

1. Basic sampling rules. Avoid, or sample separately, all odd or dissimilarly treated areas not representative of the uniform soil area. As a general rule, soils of distinctly different colors should not be mixed.
2. Collecting a representative sample. Take 15 to 20 separate cores, borings, or trowel slices at random in a zigzag pattern from the sampling area. Take 20 or 30 more cores if the area is variable and location of fertilizer bands is unknown. More cores will lessen the
effect of one core taken from a fertilizer band. Take equal size cores, bores, or trowel slices to an equal depth. If the field is usually plowed, take samples to plow depth. If the field is not plowed, sample to a 6-inch depth.

3. No-till and conservation tillage. Continuous use of broadcast fertilizers can rapidly reduce the surface soil pH of no-till and conservation tillage fields. Some herbicides may be de-activated resulting in reduced effectiveness and poor chemical weed control.
Standard soil sampling procedures do not accurately show the pH of the soil surface. In samples taken to 6 to 8 inches, the acidity of the surface few inches is diluted by the usually higher pH of the subsoil. In order to assess surface pH it is necessary to take a
separate 0-2 inch sample form the sampling area. Phosphorus and potassium should be determined in a separate 0-7 inch sample. Chisel plowed or disked fields should be treated as no-till fields because neither implement effectively incorporates surface-applied
fertilizers to the tillage depth. For ridge tillage systems, samples should be taken from the
shoulder of the ridge or approximately one-half the distance between the row and the center of the rows. Where fertilizer materials are injected 6-8 inches deep, whether it is
nitrogen only or phosphorus and potassium, it is suggested that individual probes for the samples be taken randomly among the crop rows.

Keep good records. Perhaps the most important information that can be obtained from soil tests is the changes in soil test results that occur over time. Good records help when evaluating the effectiveness of a fertilizer program. Ideally, sample each field once every 3-5 years or once each crop rotation. Fields should be in the same crop each time when sampled to reduce variability of the potassium test results. Once you have obtained a comprehensive soil fertility map of each field, you can sample a representative portion of each field and problem areas every 3-5 years as a
check on the fertilizer program.

You'll need to know the soil type so use the Wed Soil Survey to determine that and I have links to that and a host of other planning information in the Getting Started thread

Getting Started (http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3063)

The second page of that thread has some great layout information that I encourage all of you to read even if you got "started" 10 years ago....;)

[huntyak]

[QUOTE=dbltree;455133]
Eyad...your soil is pretty poor from abuse and very low soil organic matter so as Skip mentions do a soil test (for alfalfa) but on that soil I suspect you will need 400#'s of 6-28-28 and 400-500 #'s of pel lime.
/QUOTE]

Would those numbers be per acre, and if using an automatic seeder on an ATV, put on small setting when distributing the Fertilizer and Lime?

Also, its early, too early to frost seed clover?

As always Paul, thanks for the info, it is appreciated.:way:

[Sligh1]

When using fertilizer- you can open it wide open - putting it on thick & faster. The smaller opening is for seed only. SO- fertilizer goes on fast/heavy, clover SEED goes light on small setting.You're talking clover, say 5 lbs per acre (whatever) vs 500-1000 lbs of pell-lime & p&k per acre. I always use my hand seeder to frost seed & use my big seeder for fert & lime. Ya, 400#'s P&K & 400-500 pell-lime PER ACRE is what DT was saying.
I'd wait on frost seeding. March is when I do it but I wouldn't do it this early.

[huntyak]

When using fertilizer- you can open it wide open - putting it on thick & faster. The smaller opening is for seed only. SO- fertilizer goes on fast/heavy, clover SEED goes light on small setting.You're talking clover, say 5 lbs per acre (whatever) vs 500-1000 lbs of pell-lime & p&k per acre. I always use my hand seeder to frost seed & use my big seeder for fert & lime. Ya, 400#'s P&K & 400-500 pell-lime PER ACRE is what DT was saying.
I'd wait on frost seeding. March is when I do it but I wouldn't do it this early.

Thanks Skip!:way:

[showstopper]

I'm looking at putting some plow down clover on a property this spring. Does anyone have any experience in doing this? I was wanting to plant this spring then leave half in the clover while discing in turnips, radishes and beets for hunting plots in August. Would this get some nitrogen in the ground for the hunting plots to grow well without needing to add fertilizer? I do not plan on doing any soil testing either. Anyone who knows anything please advise.

[Sligh1]

I'm looking at putting some plow down clover on a property this spring. Does anyone have any experience in doing this? I was wanting to plant this spring then leave half in the clover while discing in turnips, radishes and beets for hunting plots in August. Would this get some nitrogen in the ground for the hunting plots to grow well without needing to add fertilizer? I do not plan on doing any soil testing either. Anyone who knows anything please advise.

Yep- works great. Plant Berseem and/or crimson clover and maybe some cheap red clover. If you are going to keep 1/2 of it- I'd add good whites like Alice, Ladino, etc to the part you will keep. If spring planting, I'd seed heavy and add some oats, etc. Spring plantings are a pain with weeds but do-able.

[dbltree]

Would this get some nitrogen in the ground for the hunting plots to grow well without needing to add fertilizer?

It will but probably not 100% of the next crops needs especially if the soil is poor and P&K levels are down. The clovers will not thrive and therefore not produce as much biomass nor fix as much N but still you are on the right track.

You can but seed where ever but Welters has a great list with good information on their wed site to help you decide.

Clover seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

I like Alta-Swede Mammoth red clover, berseem and crimson for plow downs but red clover is the one you will want to add to your fall rye planting.

I assume you have a limited budget and are hoping to use cover crops to build soils and provide nutrients for your plots. This absolutely will work but if you use no fertilizer and lime to get started the process will be slower so just keep that in mind....;)

[dbltree]

January 9th, 2012

Understanding white/ladino clover

All that most landowners know about clover is what they read in ads in hunting magazines but there is so much more they need to know! The ads insinuate that their clover can grow huge racks and draw deer for miles....neither of which is true and they fail to share the fact that their clovers are not drought resistant nor capable of providing grazing well into winter or withstand intensive grazing....that's a lot facts that you need to know.

Stolons are an extremely important part of a white clover plant and clover can spread via stolons but also die from rot and disease if not resistant. This is a pic of a white clover plant with descriptions....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/esmarib.jpg

Stolon density and resistant to rot is something the average landowner never thinks of, yet is a critical part of promoting year around food to hold whitetails. Last year we had severe, bitter cold weather and plenty of snow and whitetails dug through the snow to reach the Alice white clover...eating even the stolons!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/095.jpg

This pic compares white, ladino (a taller white clover), red clover and alfalfa and it's easy to see why white/ladino is better adapted to grazing while the taller red and alfalfa are better for haying

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/L_Figure5.jpg

This time of year my Alice white clover doesn't look like much....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7099.jpg

but closer inspection reveals the still green and still tasty clover leaves

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7096.jpg

pulling back the thatch also reveals what whitetails seek out when the weather gets bad

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7097.jpg

and the thick heavy stolons that allow clovers like Alice to persist and survive everything from heavy grazing to severe drought

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7098.jpg

What many people don't understand is that whitetails will readily forage on almost any common white/ladino clover so knowing that is important to select for drought resistant, disease resistant, grazing tolerant clovers. The following are some examples of great white clovers to choose from....

Alice

Alice is a tall, large leaved clover developed for exceptional yields of palatable, high quality, high protein forage. Its vigorous spring and summer growth makes it a good choice for cutting or grazing management. Alice has greater stolon density than most other ladino types, allowing for better persistence under intensive continuous grazing. White Clover will not lignify in hot weather like Alfalfa, grasses, Red Clover, etc.

Barblanca
A new release of White Clover that has good drought tolerance. This is our introduction year, but it sure looks good.
More aggressive than other White Clover
More and faster ground cover
Large Leaf
Higher Yield
Very high N fixing
It is showing more aggressive than Alice so be careful on fertility management as it could take over grass stands. Although on good management and fertility, this clover has a unique place. It you need a very aggressive White Clover, try Barblanca.

Tripoli

Tripoli is not as tall as typical ladinos, but is more stoloniferous and produces a denser sward. Tripoli is noted for its superior heat tolerance, productivity, persistence and seeding ability. It produces seed early in the season, which is a distinct advantage in hot climates. It performs well all season in the deep-South and is proving to be a favorite of livestock and game like.

Barbian

This small leaved clover has good persistence and winter-hardiness. Its dense, low growing form makes it superb for sheep and horse pastures.

Kopu II
Kopu II was selected for stolen density, persistence under grazing, high yield, and large leaf size. This was achieved primarily by selection under cattle grazing in the northern United States and sheep grazing in New Zealand.

Kopu II, bred by AgResearch Grasslands of New Zealand, was selected from a world collection of white clovers. Penn State University and the University of Wisconsin participated in the selection and evaluation of the cultivar. In trials in Lancaster, Arlington, and Marshfield, Wisconsin Kopu II has exhibited improved yield and persistence over Alice (known as the industry standard).

Kopu II outperforms or equals Patriot and Durana in most locations in Kentucky for Persistence and Yield.



Jumbo II Ladino
Jumbo II Ladino white comes from a selections of Jumbo plus additional parentage to give it superior tiller density and disease resistance. Jumbo II is an aggressive tillering white clover that was bred and selected for the US market. Its aggressive tillering provides a dense canopy of forage. Although some leaf size was sacrificed to get the denser tillers, research has shown that the largest leaf clovers are not consistently the highest yielders of dry matter.


Durana
Adaptation: From Eastern Texas and Oklahoma across the South to the Atlantic coast and north along a line from Macon, GA to Dallas, TX. Durana persists well under grazing.

Uses: Durana is highly persistent under grazing and is best used to enrich existing, unimproved cool or warm season grass pasture, especially if ridding a pasture of toxic fescue is not an option. Excellent for grazing fall through early summer. Durana increases the attractiveness and nutritional value of wildlife food plots, alone or in a mixture.

Those are just a few common varieties however there are many many more and a little searching will allow you to look over clover trials in your region.

2011 Red and White Clover Report (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/pr/pr628/pr628.pdf)

Remember white clovers do not do well on sandy dry soils and will perform best on heavier clay or clay loam soils so while clover is widely adapted to most of the nation, there are areas they may not be useful. Chicory can be included in a clover mix but on good soils with good nutrition, clover can easily out compete and dominate the chicory causing it to vanish from the stand.

Each landowner will need to do some experimenting to see what might work best for them on their soils and then note endurance under duress from droughts and intensive grazing. Do some research on clovers adapted to your area and then compare them in side by side trials or mix several varieties together for a diverse combination.

Check your local co-op or seed source or do a search on line but here are a couple sources that sell seeds by the pound.

Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Des Moines Forage and Turf (http://www.dftseed.com/agricultural/specialty_clovers.php)

SucraSEED carries Sweet Spot (http://www.sucraseed.com/products_wildlife.php)...a mix of excellent white clovers and high sugar ryegrass that is also very drought resistant.

White clovers are an essential part of our habitat program and one of the most important tools we have available to meet our goals of having year around food sources. Be sure to incorporate clover into your centralized feeding area along with other crops that combined will keep deer fed year around.... ;)

[huntdoc]

So what is your experience with barblanca? The description above says it becomes invasive? That sounds like what I would want from a low maintenance plot that will get ignored, something that takes over and thrives! I was planning to try establishing Alice but this makes me reconsider for barblanca.

[dbltree]

So what is your experience with barblanca? The description above says it becomes invasive? That sounds like what I would want from a low maintenance plot that will get ignored, something that takes over and thrives! I was planning to try establishing Alice but this makes me reconsider for barblanca.

They are talking about clovers from a cattleman's point of view where they need a certain % in grasses. All white clover is "invasive"...just look in your lawn...:D

I personally prefer Alice for it's drought resistance but if you try Barblanca keep us posted on what you think of it?

[dbltree]

January 15th, 2012

The value of white clover in a whitetail habitat management program is often underestimated, perhaps sometimes because the wrong clovers are being utilized or way to much clover has been planted. White/ladino clover is the one single crop source that can last the longest period of time over the greatest area of the country.

It's often taken for granted in nice weather but....Alice white clover really shines when the conditions are at their worst!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7162.jpg

Whitetails readily dig thru the snow for good dominant clovers like Alice and KopuII

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7159.jpg

making them invaluable assets in reaching our goals of providing year around food sources

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7160.jpg

I have conducted many tests comparing clovers over the years and the most expensive "buck on a bag" clovers quickly go dormant in the fall and offer little or no food resources during the winter....not so with tough, dominant clovers bred for livestock grazing. Buy the best clover seed for less, plant 10-20% of your feeding area in white clover and along with crops like winter rye and brassicas...keep whitetails on your property all year long....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7161.jpg


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[trev33]

Would there be a problem if you planted a 50/50 mix of Alice and Kopu II clover? Or would it be better to plant just one variety.

Trev

[dbltree]

Would there be a problem if you planted a 50/50 mix of Alice and Kopu II clover? Or would it be better to plant just one variety.

Trev

No problem at all...I frequently mix Alice, KopuII and Jumbo Ladino white clovers.:way:

[dbltree]

February 11th, 2012

Here we area...right smack in the middle of winter when food sources are needed most but often missing from most habitat programs, so where then is this beaten runway leading too??

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/2012-02-03_12-14-16_668.jpg

Not beans, not corn...just plain ordinary white clover!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/2012-02-03_12-14-44_901.jpg

Good quality white clovers bred for intense grazing by livestock (not high priced "deer" clover) will last literally year around and though it doesn't look like much in mid winter...it's till an attractive draw, and every patch of clover looks like a barnyard!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c1-3.jpg

These bucks are just a few of hundreds of pics from a patch of clover in mid winter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/b9.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/b11.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/b13.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/b14.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Deer%20in%20Clover/b18a.jpg

If you can only plant one thing because of lack of equipment or extremely intense grazing pressure...plant good quality white clovers such as Alice or KopuII. Where ever possible however, use white clover in conjunction with a combination of other crops to keep deer fed year around...such as the following...


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[KSHUNTER]

I have a lot of grass thatch from last year on my clover plot, would it be ok to burn it off right now or would that harm the clover? I frost seeded clover last spring into rye, I didn't spray because I wanted it to get established.

I plan on hitting it with a pretty good dose of select once the grass comes on now that the clover is more established.

[dbltree]

I have a lot of grass thatch from last year on my clover plot, would it be ok to burn it off right now or would that harm the clover? I frost seeded clover last spring into rye, I didn't spray because I wanted it to get established.

I plan on hitting it with a pretty good dose of select once the grass comes on now that the clover is more established.

I don't think it would harm the clover but honestly that is something I have never tried? If you burn it, let us know the outcome?

[TDswitchback26]

I burned a clover patch with grass last year and it came back great.

[dbltree]

I burned a clover patch with grass last year and it came back great.

Thanks! That's good to know :way:

[Buck-Man]

Hey guys , 3 part question here bare with me.
My property is in southern IL and with our winter being so mild this year can I throw some clover down now ?
I have 3 established plots that had atv trails around them and no longer use and wanted to add that area to the existing plot.
I also have 2 established clover plots that were planted in W.I. imperial 3 years ago that just were overtaken by ragweed last season and some grasses. Ive tried 24db and cutting but couldnt get ahold of it, now i have some clover which might come back if I can get all the weeds out but the plots have so much laid down garbage ,dead ragweed ,grasses.
Is it best to rework soil and replant my own mix of clovers?
Do to equipment problem and weather issues last year i wasnt able to plant my corn,brassicas/turnips/sugarbeets,chufa .ive kept it wrapped in the nylon bags and in tupperware bins and no lids in the polebarn will this seed be good this season?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

[dbltree]

Hey guys , 3 part question here bare with me.
My property is in southern IL and with our winter being so mild this year can I throw some clover down now ?
I have 3 established plots that had atv trails around them and no longer use and wanted to add that area to the existing plot.
I also have 2 established clover plots that were planted in W.I. imperial 3 years ago that just were overtaken by ragweed last season and some grasses. Ive tried 24db and cutting but couldnt get ahold of it, now i have some clover which might come back if I can get all the weeds out but the plots have so much laid down garbage ,dead ragweed ,grasses.
Is it best to rework soil and replant my own mix of clovers?
Do to equipment problem and weather issues last year i wasnt able to plant my corn,brassicas/turnips/sugarbeets,chufa .ive kept it wrapped in the nylon bags and in tupperware bins and no lids in the polebarn will this seed be good this season?
Any help would be greatly appreciated

I like to wait til mid march here in SE Iowa but anytime now is probably fine in southern Illinois.

I'm not fond of trying to keep a spent clover plot going by overseeding more seed, eventually it needs a break and rotated to another crop for a year. Not saying it can't be done but I think you'll be happier with the results if you till it up and start over but it's your call of course.

The hands down best way is to plant the clover in the fall with the rye mix posted in the cereal thread so you can plant it to oats and berseem clover this spring to give it a bit of a break.

Your stored seeds should be just fine...:way:

[spltbrow]

I planted some alice white clover last spring and i am wandering if i should frost seed any other types of clover into it to have more of a veriaty of clover or just stick with the white.

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I am no expert but your alice white choice is about the best. I dont know if adding another variety would "pull" more deer in. I think it is hard to beat white clovers.

[dbltree]

I am no expert but your alice white choice is about the best. I dont know if adding another variety would "pull" more deer in. I think it is hard to beat white clovers.

You are correct....adding other varieties I have found accomplishes little in regards to deer, the only advantage is that different varieties have different attributes such as drought resistance and stolon stamina. Mixing several white clovers (such as Alice and KopuII) provides a small amount of insurance against stand loss but that's about it.

Adding red clover can provide more tonnage but red clover is short lived, lasting 2 years in most cases.

[risto2351]

You are correct....adding other varieties I have found accomplishes little in regards to deer, the only advantage is that different varieties have different attributes such as drought resistance and stolon stamina. Mixing several white clovers (such as Alice and KopuII) provides a small amount of insurance against stand loss but that's about it.

Adding red clover can provide more tonnage but red clover is short lived, lasting 2 years in most cases.

The one other attribute that I like is that white clover

seems to be a lower growing clover compared to the red clover.

I like this because I can not get out to mow when I want and usually

I have no problem when I do get to it. It is not maintenance free but

it is user friendly. IMO

[SoDakarcher]

I planted clover per instructions of Dbltree last fall. Unfortunately we had very little if any rain in SD after Aug. I saw very little clover germination last fall.
I had asked for Alice but received Ladino white and also White Dutch.

I was considering another dose of frost overseed with Alice in March. I am just afraid I will be overrun with weeds if I do not get a stand.

Any harm?? What do you think of the varieties I already planted... with whitetails in mind?

Thanks in advance!

[Sligh1]

I planted clover per instructions of Dbltree last fall. Unfortunately we had very little if any rain in SD after Aug. I saw very little clover germination last fall.
I had asked for Alice but received Ladino white and also White Dutch.

I was considering another dose of frost overseed with Alice in March. I am just afraid I will be overrun with weeds if I do not get a stand.

Any harm?? What do you think of the varieties I already planted... with whitetails in mind?

Thanks in advance!


I have seeded many times in August-ish and saw little clover in the fall - I wouldn't jump to conclusions too fast. I WOULD frost seed some more if I were you. If u have Ladino planted, it'll be fine. If you frost seed- just get Alice white- you'll have a nice blend. Nice part is- before you tore it up- give it a chance after frost seeding & looking at ur clover coming up from last year- it'll b one of the 1st things to green up & u'll know early if it is coming in nice. I suspect it will. I personally think u'll b fine BUT wait & see and do some frost seeding before doing anything else.

[dbltree]

Some of my fall seedings didn't take well either thanks to the drought so I'll be frost seeding more seed into it in the next few weeks. Like Skip mentions...can't hurt and it's good insurance...:way:

[Mad Trapper]

I am clearing a several acre field that presently has goldenrod it in that I plan in making a destination field. While I will have strips of corn and brassica in it, I plan to put a large part of it in clover. With the warm weather we are having, we have been able to get the area mowed. I will have the lime truck come in and add a ton of lime/acre if the weather stays dry enough to enable him to get into the field. I am laying out the area and plan to have areas of brush (elder berry, plum, speckled alder, norway spruce, etc.) as well as plant some oaks, chestnut and fruit trees. I am trying to decide whether to try to get the clover planted this spring or to wait until fall. I am leaning toward planting the clover with oats as a cover crop this spring. What do you guys think? Was going to primarily use Alice and maybe mix in some Kopu2 and Jumbo Ladino as well as some Berseem. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

Many thanks

[LoessHillsArcher]

Some of my fall seedings didn't take well either thanks to the drought so I'll be frost seeding more seed into it in the next few weeks. Like Skip mentions...can't hurt and it's good insurance...:way:

Yup, just got in 12lbs of white clovers from Welter's yesterday... our fall clover seedings got to be about 1/2" tall and then disappeared when it didn't rain for a longgggg time. I have my doubts they come back so bought some "insurance" as you mentioned. :D

[dbltree]

I am clearing a several acre field that presently has goldenrod it in that I plan in making a destination field. While I will have strips of corn and brassica in it, I plan to put a large part of it in clover. With the warm weather we are having, we have been able to get the area mowed. I will have the lime truck come in and add a ton of lime/acre if the weather stays dry enough to enable him to get into the field. I am laying out the area and plan to have areas of brush (elder berry, plum, speckled alder, norway spruce, etc.) as well as plant some oaks, chestnut and fruit trees. I am trying to decide whether to try to get the clover planted this spring or to wait until fall. I am leaning toward planting the clover with oats as a cover crop this spring. What do you guys think? Was going to primarily use Alice and maybe mix in some Kopu2 and Jumbo Ladino as well as some Berseem. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

Many thanks

You can do it this spring, just be aware that spring plantings are often fraught with challenges and problems with wet spring weather and weeds. That said...it's been done successfully for years so not a big deal if you want to give it a shot.

My preferred method is to plant oats and berseem clover this spring, then till that under and plant the rye mix (see cereal grain thread) in late August and add the white clover then.

if you want to give it a shot this spring, go ahead and use the oats and berseem but just add 6-8#'s of white clovers (mix them if you wish) and then clip the oats and weeds off sometime in June. Be sure to clip high to avoid smothering the little clovers.

I also prefer to put 3 ton of ag lime on per acre...it will last longer and save you repeating the process as often and be sure to get P&K down per soil test results...:way:

[crs740]

I am planning on planting oats and berseem where I had planted brassicas last fall. I know berseem is prone to dying from a frost. Would it be best to wait until mid-may to plant them? When you till under the oats and berseem for the rye mix, do you spray the plants first or just disc the green plants under?

[Mad Trapper]

You can do it this spring, just be aware that spring plantings are often fraught with challenges and problems with wet spring weather and weeds. That said...it's been done successfully for years so not a big deal if you want to give it a shot.

My preferred method is to plant oats and berseem clover this spring, then till that under and plant the rye mix (see cereal grain thread) in late August and add the white clover then.

if you want to give it a shot this spring, go ahead and use the oats and berseem but just add 6-8#'s of white clovers (mix them if you wish) and then clip the oats and weeds off sometime in June. Be sure to clip high to avoid smothering the little clovers.

I also prefer to put 3 ton of ag lime on per acre...it will last longer and save you repeating the process as often and be sure to get P&K down per soil test results...:way:

Paul: I have used your rye mix with great sucess in other areas. As I recall, it does not include white clover, but includes red. Would you just substitute the white for the red? If so, do I need to adjust the amount of white clover used?

Many thank

[vrod]

I am planning on planting oats and berseem where I had planted brassicas last fall. I know berseem is prone to dying from a frost. Would it be best to wait until mid-may to plant them? When you till under the oats and berseem for the rye mix, do you spray the plants first or just disc the green plants under?

I wonder the same thing.

[dbltree]

I am planning on planting oats and berseem where I had planted brassicas last fall. I know berseem is prone to dying from a frost. Would it be best to wait until mid-may to plant them? When you till under the oats and berseem for the rye mix, do you spray the plants first or just disc the green plants under?

Sheesh...so many ??'s :eek::D lol...j/k...;)

You are correct that berseem is not a cold weather clover so depending on where you live I would wait til about your last average frost date. Here it's about May 5th so I would plant about May 1st perhaps.

Paul: I have used your rye mix with great sucess in other areas. As I recall, it does not include white clover, but includes red. Would you just substitute the white for the red? If so, do I need to adjust the amount of white clover used?I usually just add white clover to the red in the mix but this is optional...you can leave the red out, cut the rate or mix them but if your goal is to establish white clover...use the proper amount...6-8#'s per acre.

As mentioned above do not use berseem clovers in the fall...spring only. Keep in mind also that Whitetail Institute uses 30% berseem on their very expensive clover mix...another reason to avoid the "buck on a bag" seed and buy good quality white clover seed from Welters, DFT or your local seed supply....:way:

[crs740]

Sorry about all the questions, but what about tilling it under, do you spray it or disc it after it is mowed down to a couple of inches high?

[Bryan95]

Hey paul adding another ? What do you do for white clover if you cant till it in. I was thinking spray, im not sure with what and broadcast then maybe rake it in some but im not sure what do you suggest?

[dbltree]

Sorry about all the questions, but what about tilling it under, do you spray it or disc it after it is mowed down to a couple of inches high?

No worries on the ??'s...just funnin' you...:D

I don't spray it...I just till it under and depending on tillage tools you may need to mow it first to shred it up and make tilling easier.

I just till under white clover but with no til you might have to spray with 2-4D or 2 quarts of gly and 1 quart of crop oil several weeks before planting anything else. It's toughto kill with roundup ;)

[dbltree]

Frost seeding clover

Depending on where you live, there is plenty of time to frost seed clover yet but generally when there is consistent freezing at night and thawing during the day. It is that "action" that helps tiny seeds make soil contact and when warm weather begins this spring the seeds will germinate quickly making frost seeding a great way to establish clover with out tillage being involved.

The drought last fall killed many emerged clover seedlings that were planted with the rye combination so I broadcasted a mix of some left over Winter White clover (from SucaSeed) and some Medium red clover...this being more for a cover crop then a long term clover planting.

White clover seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7363.jpg

Red clover seed (treated seed hence the grey color)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7364.jpg

I sow 6-8#'s of white or 12-15#'s of red or any combination of the two such as in this case and I set the gate on the bag seeder to just allow seeds to pass thru to prevent over applying the seed. (won't hurt anything but no sense wasting seed)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7365.jpg

I over seeded into the heavily grazed winter rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7366.jpg

The soil was just a little "sticky" so i walked it on (when possible do it while soils are froze at first light)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7367.jpg

The tiny seeds are apparent on the bare earth

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7368.jpg

Overseeding into dead brassicas can be problematic because of allelopathic chemicals in the brassica roots that can inhibit tiny seeds from germinating but in this case deer completely wiped out the brassicas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7369.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7370.jpg

very few root remnants remain

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7371.jpg

so in this case it should work....where it often doesn't is when the soil surface is covered with dead/uneaten brassica
leaves

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_7372.jpg

if you have some thin areas in last years seeding or some areas you forgot to add clover seed to last fall, get out and get some frost seeding done this month and avoid dealing with wet fields later this spring! :way:

[crs740]

Will the alleopathic effects of brassicas prevent berseem clover from germinaitng if the brassicas are disced in and oats are used for a cover crop?

[dbltree]

Will the alleopathic effects of brassicas prevent berseem clover from germinaitng if the brassicas are disced in and oats are used for a cover crop?

Generally no because if the ground is tilled there is fresh soil at the surface...I have never had any problems except when frost seeding into dead brassicas.

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I am seeding about 3 acres into berseem/oats this april. It is sod now and I am gonna put down some 6-28-28 just wondering where you guys get urs and what you pay?

[loneranger]

Looks to me like frost seeding is about over. Spring is HERE! With Summer not far behind. Moisture too will be at a premium,,especially the farther west you go.

[dbltree]

I am seeding about 3 acres into berseem/oats this april. It is sod now and I am gonna put down some 6-28-28 just wondering where you guys get urs and what you pay?

I get everything in Keosauqua at Iowa-Missouri Hybrids...Aaron has seed, fertilizer and pel lime...price was around $20 a bag for fertilizer last fall but could be very different now. Ph is 319-293-3114

[huntyak]

I frost seeded heavily during that last winter storm March 4th and had all of it covered with a couple inches of snow. Was at the farm yesterday and noticed it appears that much of it is coming up already and last years seeding is booming.

Is it possible to see it starting to come up only 10 days after frost seeding?

What is the normal time period one should expect to see clover start coming up?

Thanks.

[Scott]

I frost seeded heavily during that last winter storm March 4th and had all of it covered with a couple inches of snow. Was at the farm yesterday and noticed it appears that much of it is coming up already and last years seeding is booming.

Is it possible to see it starting to come up only 10 days after frost seeding?

What is the normal time period one should expect to see clover start coming up?

Thanks.

Yep, seeded mine the same day and it's all up.

1239

[jerred44]

we have a 2 year old acre of clover, after all this warm weather its really startting to take off, is it ok to spray some weed and grass killer this early or should we wait a bit?

[huntyak]

Looking good Scott! I don't think spraying Select This early would hurt a 2 year old stand but hopefully Paul will chime in.

[jerred44]

Im not worried about hurting the clover, I wanna get ahead of the weeds and grass, or should I wait to make sure I get all the weeds and grass.

[dbltree]

I would wait a few more weeks before spraying clethodim on clover.. not because of the clover but to allow the grass to break completely out of dormancy :way:

[vrod]

I'm going to plant a 30' strip of alice white around my plot.(Clover will be 2 acres worth.) Should I plant something in with it, or plant on it's own? Rest of plot to be berseem/oats till july.

[dbltree]

I'm going to plant a 30' strip of alice white around my plot.(Clover will be 2 acres worth.) Should I plant something in with it, or plant on it's own? Rest of plot to be berseem/oats till july.

I would seed it with oats and berseem for a nurse crop

[vrod]

what seeding rate would you recommend?

[dbltree]

what seeding rate would you recommend?

60#'s oats, 10-15#s berseem and 6#'s white clover :way:

[OneCam]

60#'s oats, 10-15#s berseem and 6#'s white clover :way:

Per Acre? Or for the two acres vrod is referring to?

Thanks Paul :way:

[vrod]

Per acre I'm sure. Actually found it in the cover crop forum. Thanks again Paul. Just did not no if adding berseem and oats would change seeding rate for alice.

[dbltree]

Per acre I'm sure. Actually found it in the cover crop forum. Thanks again Paul. Just did not no if adding berseem and oats would change seeding rate for alice.

Yes...all rates I list are always on a per acre basis...you can lower the rate of berseem or crimson but NOT the white clover :way:

[dbltree]

March 29th, 2012

I wasn't able to stop and take a pic of it, but while cking TSI with my forester we drove by a patch that the landowner had frost seeded to clover...only "frost" or freezing/thawing conditions have been non-existent since he did so. No matter...the clover is coming up thicker then hair on a dogs back...heavy rains and warm weather will do the trick.

White clover is coming on great here and providing a high protein, easily digestible food source for winter weary deer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover2-3.jpg

This is red clover the landowner frost seeded into soybean stubble the year before

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Redclover1.jpg

It did so well he left it a second year and deer are feeding heavily on it

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/RedClover2.jpg

In all of these cases however these are the only crops growing in these areas....good but not great, and a combination of food sources would have kept them coming into the feeding area all winter long. A small amount of clover will feed a tremendous number of deer so consider dividing plots and planting a combination of food sources such as these...


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips. If no soil test add 200-400#'s of 6-28-28 and 400-500#'s of pel lime at planting in the fall with winter rye(see below)

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[showstopper]

All of my berseem, white combo and oats are beginning to come up in my plots. Can I spray with clethodim and not hurt them? Or, should I have done that the day I planted? Thanks for the help again!

[Reno]

I am around the Fort Dodge area. Planning on planting Oats and Berseem. Can I plant now or is it better to wait for a later date? Thanks!

[panthers77]

All of my berseem, white combo and oats are beginning to come up in my plots. Can I spray with clethodim and not hurt them? Or, should I have done that the day I planted? Thanks for the help again!
I'm guessing most will say you should wait to spray until the oats are ready to be mowed. Clethodim will kill the oats which were planted with the clover to outcompete the weeds. The oats will also help establish the clover by taking some of the browse pressure.

[rackhunter]

It seems alot of places dont stock berseem clover can u plant red clover in the spring instead of berseem? when should we start seeding oats and clover with current temps?

[showstopper]

I got mine from www.welterseed.com. They carry everything that Paul suggests for food plot seed along with other seeds to improve deer habitat. If you and your buddies or neighbors are planning on putting in plots combine your orders and save some money by buying in bulk.

[DZJ81]

When using Oats for a nurse crop w/clover is there any one preferred over another. There seems to be a lot of choices.

[Reno]

Hey Rackhunter - it seems nobody wants to answer our question on when to plant oats and clover!!! lol!!!

[6x6]

Reno... Go back to page 65, #647. Paul did say the Berseem clover is not cold tolerant, so you should wait untill after your average last frost date, around May 1st.

[panthers77]

When using Oats for a nurse crop w/clover is there any one preferred over another. There seems to be a lot of choices.

If you're talking oats I'd go with the cheapest ones available.

[vrod]

I planted oats and berseem yesterday. Last nights rain were a god send. Berseem cannot take frost, but I took the chance that we are home free. Welters has berseem, but to cut down on shipping I found some local. Lawn and turf dealer in ankeny.(2.25 lb)

[Reno]

Thanks 6x6. The warm weather sucks you in to doing something you shouldn't!!!
I will wait until May 1st.

[rackhunter]

Can I use red clover instead of berseem in the spring and still till under In July to plant brassicas and August rye?

[Sligh1]

Can I use red clover instead of berseem in the spring and still till under In July to plant brassicas and August rye?

Yep. the Berseem is going to grow faster, etc BUT the red will work.

[KSHUNTER]

Frost seeded last spring, flat took off this spring. I used DT clover mix. Could not be happier.



1300



1301

[Sligh1]

I used DT clover mix. Could not be happier.




Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that! you'll never go wrong with DT advice. Looking great and I am sure you'll be pulling some deer in and giving some great nutrition, etc.

[vrod]

Planted 10 days ago. Just popping up now. PLEASE no frost!

[vrod]

will the oats survive the frost? Berseem has me nervous. we did did get frost in warren county. And suppose to get again tonight.

[skyleralan]

I have waited to put clover in with the nice weather and glad I did, I knew we would have some possible freezing still. I plan on getting it planted this Sunday and at the latest, by the end of this month.

The nice weather just got everyone in the mood to get things done.

[Daver]

Guys, I don't think a light frost or two at this time will decimate your new clover plantings. It might stunt them a bit, but I wouldn't be overly concerned. The extended drought last summer was way tougher on clover than a night or two of 30 degrees IMO.

[skyleralan]

Guys, I don't think a light frost or two at this time will decimate your new clover plantings. It might stunt them a bit, but I wouldn't be overly concerned. The extended drought last summer was way tougher on clover than a night or two of 30 degrees IMO.

Well how about this, what is the latest you should put clover in, in the Spring and still give it a goo chance to get some early growth before the warm summer months, mid May?

[DZJ81]

I see that for the till under spring planting, the reccomended clovers are berseem and crimson. Is there one preferred over the other and if so what are advantages or disadvantages of either?

[Reno]

May 10th is the average latest frost. From what Paul has said, Berseem does not tolerate much of a frost. I am waiting until April 28th, at least, to plant mine. I know it is hard to do with the warm weather!

[dbltree]

I see that for the till under spring planting, the reccomended clovers are berseem and crimson. Is there one preferred over the other and if so what are advantages or disadvantages of either?

In all honesty there is probably little difference...each is priced differently but one requires more seed then the other, thus offsetting the price difference. That said I think berseem is known to fix a little more nitrogen and biomass then crimson clover but those things are hard to substantiate. Plant whichever you wish or like me...some of both...;)

April 13th, 2012

The early spring weather has folks out planting clover and wondering if the hard freezes will harm the tiny seedlings? Generally white, red and even annual clovers like crimson can tolerate some hard frosts and even an outright freeze or two berseem clover however is not very cold tolerant. I generally hold off planting oats and berseem until late April in my area and even into early May depending on the weather. Those who plant IWC clover seed should be aware that 30% of it is berseem so avoid planting too early or in the fall...it won't affect the white clovers in the mix but you risk throwing away 30% of your expensive seed mix if planted at the wrong time.

Never underestimate the power of white clover even in relatively small amounts and it should be a part of every feeding area where it can be grown. I like to plant around the field edges even and especially when the field is an ag crop field if there is any unused edge area.

In this crop field the edge is relatively steep and left in grass so we are taking advantage of this edge to establish white clover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/2012-04-10_10-41-45_117.jpg

I prefer to establish perennial clovers in the fall but crops make it difficult access this field...so spring it is! I spread 400#'s of 6-28-28 and 400#'s of pellet lime and tilled it in. Note the timber edge has been edge feathered and on;y a couple openings remain leading out to the field and clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/2012-04-10_10-42-12_876.jpg

The edge leads into a small clearing so we'll plant that area at the same time thus creating a safe area deer are likely to enter before dark and a food source that will provide nearly year around attraction...when added to the ag crops it makes an outstanding combination...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/2012-04-10_10-50-18_743.jpg

Speaking of clearings...a friend of mine got a dozer in to make a beautiful 2 acre feeding area

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c1-4.jpg

Often people make the mistake of burning the dozed up log piles but in this case the landowner wisely chose to use the trees to block off multiple openings using the same principle as edge feathering.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c2-3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c3-3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c10.jpg

Then to further screen the plot we planted red cedars around the perimeter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c6-1.jpg

He sowed the field to winter rye and white clover last fall

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c8-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c7-1.jpg

and deer have been beating a path to it ever since

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c11.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c9-1.jpg

Regardless if it is a narrow field edge, and odd corner or a new clearing...make sure clovers are a part of you habitat program

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c5-2.jpg

Where ever possible add the right crop combinations that along with clover, provide year around food sources in each feeding area...use whatever combination is right for you but the following combination has worked very well for us...

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[rackhunter]

Paul, I have a couple of 1 to 1.5 acrer food plots that are currently in clover that i planted last spring. I would like to start following your crop rotation but have some questions.
When late July comes around do I have to spray the clover to kill it or just till it under to plant turnips?
Once tilled up can I plant the same day or wait for a period?
Now when late August comes around and time to plant Rye and red clover what is the process? Till under or do i need to spray first.
Can you plant clover right away again or will this not work running clover again in the same plot without another crop in between.
I know Alfalfa has to be tilled under and plant something else before you can re-seed to alfalfa.

Thanks has always!!!!!!

[dbltree]

I just till the clover under no spraying necessary and clover can be replanted right away unlike alfalfa...;)

[tommyls1313]

Paul I planted your WR/white clover mix last fall then frost seeded more white clover 1st weekend of march. I went out to my plot for the first time since frost seeding today. My clover is thick in the knee high WR but my plot is covered with a yellow top weed. What's your suggestion on getting rid of the yellow weeds? Mowing or spraying? Thanks so much for your knowledge

[rackhunter]

Paul, so after tilling the clover under can I re seed with turnips or wr/clover thee same day or do I have to wait anYod let the old clover break down or decompose?

[skyleralan]

Brian got me my seed yesterday, all I need is like 4-5 days with no rain to get everything prepared and then broadcast my seed! It is a little later than I would like, but at the same time, Spring definitely came much earlier this year! I just hope May isn't a super dry month this year!

[vrod]

I planted berseem/oats almost 25 days ago. Oats are looking great to me.(3-4")
Clover however looks sparse at best and is nothing more than very small starts.
I did plant some alice as well and it is the same as berseem as far as just small starts. Is this normal,or did our couple frosts hurt me?

[dbltree]

What's your suggestion on getting rid of the yellow weeds?

Sounds like mustard but either way get it clipped off before it goes to seed and if still a problem you might spray with 2-4DB Butyrac 200 (not 2-4D)

after tilling the clover under can I re seed with turnips or wr/clover thee same day or do I have to wait anYod let the old clover break down or decompose?

Yes...

I planted berseem/oats almost 25 days ago. Oats are looking great to me.(3-4")
Clover however looks sparse at best and is nothing more than very small starts.
I did plant some alice as well and it is the same as berseem as far as just small starts. Is this normal,or did our couple frosts hurt me?

We had more then a frost, we had a hard freeze down to 23 degrees so it's possible to experience injury but that's only if they came up before the freeze?

Part of it is warm then cold weather, wet then dry...not really consistent so I suspect that is why the inconsistent germination.

Give it til May and see what happens...;)

[skyleralan]

Broadcasting my clover tonight with the hopes of rain tomorrow, got everything smoothed with the harrow. My innoculant is in the fridge, and I think I have everything ready.

Any final tips?

[dbltree]

Broadcasting my clover tonight with the hopes of rain tomorrow, got everything smoothed with the harrow. My innoculant is in the fridge, and I think I have everything ready.

Any final tips?

giterdone :way:

[skyleralan]

giterdone :way:

LOL, I got it "started" the spring inside my ATV broadcaster broke, and I pretty much wasted about an acres worth of seed. Ended up having to use the hand seeder, which took a long time!

Just need to get the rain and if anything else, might have to re-seed some areas.

[Tim Hull]

The clover that I frost seeded in march is just starting to come up. Man it took forever. But thanks to Dbltree I am being patient because it is the first year. I keep mowing it every 10 days or so to keep the weeds at bay. When should I spray it for the first time?

[skyleralan]

The clover that I frost seeded in march is just starting to come up. Man it took forever. But thanks to Dbltree I am being patient because it is the first year. I keep mowing it every 10 days or so to keep the weeds at bay. When should I spray it for the first time?


So it is the weeds you are having to mow now, your clover isn't that tall, correct? Good luck, this is my first year planting clover as well so we shall see. Like anything, it is a learning experience.

As far as spraying it goes, I would definitely let it mature more until spraying. The first couple pages of this thread might cover when to spray. I will most likely just clip my clover a couple times this summer and maybe spot spray any weeds that seem to be a real problem.

[Daver]

The clover that I frost seeded in march is just starting to come up. Man it took forever. But thanks to Dbltree I am being patient because it is the first year. I keep mowing it every 10 days or so to keep the weeds at bay. When should I spray it for the first time?

If you are keeping weeds down by mowing, you may not need to spray. But if you do spray, I too would wait another month or so until the fresh clover is more established. OR, as Skyler suggests too...just spot spray trouble spots.

[dbltree]

May 1st, 2012

We've had several days now of steady rains, sorely needed to help restore a soil moisture deficient and give us a fighting chance when the heat of summer arrives and rain fall is scarce. Rainfall is common in spring of course and that can make planting difficult, especially for weekenders who may have precious little time to get things planted. This is one of the reasons I prefer summer and fall plantings because not only can rains make planting difficult, they also encourage a flush of weed growth that can be frustrating and challenging not to mention expensive to deal with.

Whenever possible then, I establish white and red clovers in the fall with winter rye as a cover crop that keeps deer fed while the clovers are getting started. Rain is rarely a serious impediment to planting in the fall and weeds are never a problem. That said we did have some beautiful planting weather this April and I was able to establish some white clover using oats and a mix of annual clovers as cover crops. The berseem and crimson clovers start quickly along with the oats and again, keep deer fed while the slower growing white clover becomes established. The oats an annual clovers also help hold back weeds although they may still be a problem in which case clipping the tops just above the clover will help.

A spring mix then might look something like this...

50-60#'s of oats
6-10#'s white clover
10# berseem
10#' crimson

Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx) is a great source for all types of clover seeds, all of which they will sell by the pound so it is not necessary to purchase more then you need but always check locally to avoid shipping charges. Alice and KopuII are two of my favorites but there are many many varieties of white intermediate and ladino clovers available today.

Spring is also a time when perennial cool season grasses love to invade our clover plots....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c1-5.jpg

but grasses are easy to deal with by spraying clethodim and crop oil to safely nuke the grasses without harming the clovers.

I use 8 ounces of clethodim and 1 quart of crop oil per acre which will smoke your grasses and they will vanish in roughly 2 weeks. Rural King has the best price that I am aware of, even with shipping costs I have been unable to find it for less elsewhere....

Cropsmart Clethodim (http://www.ruralking.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=clethodim&x=35&y=12)

A gallon will last most people for a number of years and can be used to kill grasses in almost any broadleaf crop or trees. Crop oil is available at most ag co-op's or simply add a little dawn dish soap to the mix.

Note*** clethodim will not harm seedling clovers but remember it will kill oats if they are part of the mix.

I usually add a "smidge" of glyphosate which of course carries some degree of risk, but clovers are very gly resistant especially in the spring when they are not under stress. 8-12 ounces per acre has worked well for me to clean up other invading plants without causing severe injury or death to the clovers. Usually it takes nearly two quarts of gly per acre to kill a healthy stand of white clover so knowing that a adding a small amount is usually safe yet effective. ;)

[skyleralan]

May 1st, 2012

We've had several days now of steady rains, sorely needed to help restore a soil moisture deficient and give us a fighting chance when the heat of summer arrives and rain fall is scarce. Rainfall is common in spring of course and that can make planting difficult, especially for weekenders who may have precious little time to get things planted. This is one of the reasons I prefer summer and fall plantings because not only can rains make planting difficult, they also encourage a flush of weed growth that can be frustrating and challenging not to mention expensive to deal with.

Whenever possible then, I establish white and red clovers in the fall with winter rye as a cover crop that keeps deer fed while the clovers are getting started. Rain is rarely a serious impediment to planting in the fall and weeds are never a problem. That said we did have some beautiful planting weather this April and I was able to establish some white clover using oats and a mix of annual clovers as cover crops. The berseem and crimson clovers start quickly along with the oats and again, keep deer fed while the slower growing white clover becomes established. The oats an annual clovers also help hold back weeds although they may still be a problem in which case clipping the tops just above the clover will help.

A spring mix then might look something like this...



Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx) is a great source for all types of clover seeds, all of which they will sell by the pound so it is not necessary to purchase more then you need but always check locally to avoid shipping charges. Alice and KopuII are two of my favorites but there are many many varieties of white intermediate and ladino clovers available today.

Spring is also a time when perennial cool season grasses love to invade our clover plots....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c1-5.jpg

but grasses are easy to deal with by spraying clethodim and crop oil to safely nuke the grasses without harming the clovers.

I use 8 ounces of clethodim and 1 quart of crop oil per acre which will smoke your grasses and they will vanish in roughly 2 weeks. Rural King has the best price that I am aware of, even with shipping costs I have been unable to find it for less elsewhere....

Cropsmart Clethodim (http://www.ruralking.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=clethodim&x=35&y=12)

A gallon will last most people for a number of years and can be used to kill grasses in almost any broadleaf crop or trees. Crop oil is available at most ag co-op's or simply add a little dawn dish soap to the mix.

Note*** clethodim will not harm seedling clovers but remember it will kill oats if they are part of the mix.

I usually add a "smidge" of glyphosate which of course carries some degree of risk, but clovers are very gly resistant especially in the spring when they are not under stress. 8-12 ounces per acre has worked well for me to clean up other invading plants without causing severe injury or death to the clovers. Usually it takes nearly two quarts of gly per acre to kill a healthy stand of white clover so knowing that a adding a small amount is usually safe yet effective. ;)

That seems like a lot of seed per an acre, no?

[dbltree]

That seems like a lot of seed per an acre, no? in reference to this mix....

50-60#'s of oats
6-10#'s white clover
10# berseem
10#' crimsonWhite clover is fairly slow to establish so even expensive mixes like Imperial Whitetail Clover use 33% berseem because it grows quickly and helps suffocate weeds and feeds deer while the white clover is growing underneath.

Certainly if one has budget concerns you can use no or less of the annual clovers (berseem and crimson) but remember they are annual clovers and will not return, leaving only the white clovers in subsequent years.

Berseem sowed alone is planted at 10-20#'s per acre, crimson sowed alone is sown at 20-30#'s per acre. So the mix above is just a "dbltree concoction" and you can mix and match as you wish ;)

[crs740]

Can this be used with the clethodim instead of crop oil?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/top-surf-nonionic-80-20-surfactant-1-gal--4201886

[dbltree]

Can this be used with the clethodim instead of crop oil?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/top-surf-nonionic-80-20-surfactant-1-gal--4201886

I don't like it as well but technically yes...

[Tim Hull]

Yes, just mowing weeds. Clover is just getting started. I have mowed both plots at least 3 times. Doing my best to give it a chance.

[dbltree]

Spring...a beautiful time of re-birth as nature bursts to life but also a stressful time for those trying to get crops planted. Often we attempt to plant clover in the spring but when jet streams park themselves in the right place causing never ending spring rain fall, planting and caring for clover can be stressful as well.

It is for that reason I prefer to establish clovers in the fall with winter rye to avoid the stress of dealing with wet spring weather and the ensuing flush of weed growth that can sometimes be impossible to deal with, without tearing up fields.

My clovers have been growing since last September, tiny at best last fall but now off and running this spring safely tucked in below the rye cover...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/rnc2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/rnc7.jpg

In some cases I planted red clover with the rye but then frost seeded white clover...note the difference in the plant size

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/rnc4.jpg

The frost seeded white clovers are coming up nicely

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/rnc3.jpg

and soon I'll spray the rye with clethodim, but at the moment it's shading out weeds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/rnc5.jpg

Rye and clover go together like peanut butter and jelly! Together they provide year around food sources that help adapt deer to coming to our feeding areas all year long. Be certain to plant ALL in one field rather then rye in one and clover in another for instance

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/rnc6.jpg

The following is an example of a combination of crops that works perfectly together, easily rotated and easy to plant regardless if you have ATV equipment or larger implements and it can be planted in anything from a garden sized plot to a 10 acre field.

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice, KopuII, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips. Soil test for best results but 400#'s of 6-24-24 and 400#'s of pel lime will get most soils into shape. Plant 6-10#'s per acre

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, use 400#'s 6-24-24 and 200#'s urea for best yields. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September add 100-200#'s of urea if heavy grazing is expected.

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[vrod]

My berseem planted in late march is coming on like gang busters! Survived the frost. Oats are 4-5". The alice white is slow to show itself. Is this common?

[skyleralan]

My berseem planted in late march is coming on like gang busters! Survived the frost. Oats are 4-5". The alice white is slow to show itself. Is this common?


Pretty typical, white clover always takes a little longer to grow. One of the main reasons why people will plant some of type of nursery crop with them like DT's Rye and Clover mixture or Oats and Clover.

You should be fine, your Berseem will definitely help it as well. You can at least see it through the soil though, correct? It takes a little longer to develop a roots system.

[risto2351]

Paul,

In your last post you talk about spraying the rye/clover with Clethodim.

I usually just till mine under and then replant to my next crop (brassicas, etc. )


When would I spray with Clethodim if I went this route?

Thank you.

[dbltree]

Tilling it under is fine Tony, bust some of what I have posted is in a perennial white clover seeding so I prefer to spray the rye to give the clover some light.

When the rye is planted solely as a cover crop you can leave it standing til you disc it under if you wish....lot's of options :way:

Paul,

In your last post you talk about spraying the rye/clover with Clethodim.

I usually just till mine under and then replant to my next crop (brassicas, etc. )


When would I spray with Clethodim if I went this route?

Thank you.

[risto2351]

Tilling it under is fine Tony, bust some of what I have posted is in a perennial white clover seeding so I prefer to spray the rye to give the clover some light.

When the rye is planted solely as a cover crop you can leave it standing til you disc it under if you wish....lot's of options :way:

Sounds like a good option.

I also have Alice White in there. That way maybe it won't be so bad when I cut it and till it under for the brassicas.

[skyleralan]

Checked clover yesterday, it is starting to finally pop up above the surface. You can definitely tell the areas where I spilled some extra seed, like 5 feet of solid green patches!

Wanted to ask, is it too late to still drill oats into my clover with it just starting to pop up? Would it damage the clover?

[medicsnoke]

Here is a picture of a small clover plot I frost seeded in April over a turnip and rape plot form last fall. It has came in quite well but the rape never died off due to a mild winter. What can I do to help the clover, besides expensive herbacide?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/medicsnoke/cloverplot.jpg
Shall i mow it off nice and short?

[dbltree]

Wanted to ask, is it too late to still drill oats into my clover with it just starting to pop up? Would it damage the clover?

It would cause some damage to the new clover seedlings so probably not worth it at this point.

the rape never died off due to a mild winter. What can I do to help the clover, besides expensive herbacide?

Clip it just above the clover and that should do it...don't let the rape go to seed as it can be quite invasive and like mustard hard to get rid of...;)

[dbltree]

May 11th, 2012

With enough cameras on enough fields over many farms I have come to realize that white clover consistently beats almost any other food source including beans and corn...and believe me, in Iowa we have corn and deans a plenty! Cams reveal that not only do whitetails spend a large portion of their time feeding in clover but they spend time there every day from very early spring to mid winter and time after time turn down soybeans even when planted side by side with the clover....something to think about if you have grown weary of spending 80 bucks a bag for soybean seed...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Buckinclover.jpg

I don't rely solely on clover but it makes up a part of every single feeding area on every farm...not in some other field or the back 40 but EVERY feeding area contains white clover and that has proved to be very very effective at holding and adapting whitetails and makes them very predictable.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover3-1.jpg

White clover is inexpensive and easy to establish and with a little maintenance will lats for years. I keep ours sprayed with clethodim and a bit of glyphosate every spring and then clip it once or twice a summer.

My sprayer puts on 20 gallons per acre of water so because the grasses where a little taller then usual (due to a early spring) I used 10-12 ounces of clethodim, 6 ounces of 53% glyphosate and 1 quart of crop oil per acre.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover1-3.jpg

Taller perennial cool season grasses can be a tough nut to crack so where possible...don't spare the horses and get em killed!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clover2-4.jpg

My favored method of establishing both white and red clovers is in the fall with the winter rye combo...simple, easy, effective...no weeds nor wet weather to contend with and in the spring they reach full potential right when deer need it most...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c8-2.jpg

Red clovers planted with rye for a plowdown to rotate to brassicas provide awesome nutrition and tons of biomass when tilled under to plant brassicas in July.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c7-2.jpg

It's easy to see that deer are feeding on the clovers heavily

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c6-2.jpg

No expensive "buck on a bag" clover seed...just inexpensive white and red clovers that are extremely effective

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/c5-3.jpg

Planted in feeding areas along with other easy to grown and equally effective food sources, clovers complete our feeding program and insure whitetails don't leave for greener pastures regardless of the time of year.

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice, KopuII, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips. Soil test for best results but 400#'s of 6-24-24 and 400#'s of pel lime will get most soils into shape. Plant 6-10#'s per acre

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, use 400#'s 6-24-24 and 200#'s urea for best yields. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September add 100-200#'s of urea if heavy grazing is expected.

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[tommyls1313]

[QUOTE=dbltree;471843]Sounds like mustard but either way get it clipped off before it goes to seed and if still a problem you might spray with 2-4DB Butyrac 200 (not 2-4D)

Tried the mowing suggestion first Paul back on April 23rd. Went back out to have a look yesterday and man what a difference. Clover is looking lush and beautiful with ZERO weeds in it now. Thanks again Paul

[shed dog]

How often should you mow clover plots?

[dbltree]

How often should you mow clover plots?

Mowing is optional but does help control broadleaf weeds and keeps clover lush and growing rather then going to seed.

I like to mow 1-3 times a growing season...just clipping the tops off the clover (so the flowers are clipped). May, June and late August are good times to mow but avoid clipping during dry spells when clover is under duress...;)

[jmm46]

am I still ok to plant oats and clover in SE Mn in a plot that I plan on turning into your brassica and winter rye mix?

[Reno]

Don't know why not. We are just 1 day past the average last frost date here in Iowa. You will still get a lot of food out of the plot before turning under. The way the weather has been it seems like it is mid June! We have to remember it is just mid May! Good luck on your plot.