Clover

[dbltree]

Quick planting guide:

Plant white clover at 4-6#'s per acre, red clover at 8-12#'s per acre

Early spring, late summer or frost seed in late winter with late August seedings being the most trouble free.

Add cereal grains for a nurse crop to hold down weeds and attract whitetails at the same time.

Fertilize and lime per soil test (200-300#'s of 6-28-28 will work in a bind)disc/till soil once, lightly till or drill in oats or rye 1/2" to 1 1/2" deep, cultipack to firm soil, broadcast clover seed, re-cultipack to cover 1/8-1/4" deep.

Clip off spring planted oats in mid summer or fall planted rye in late May, if grasses become a problem use 6-8 ounces of clethodim (Select/Arrow) with one quart of crop oil per acre. Clipping will control most broadleaves but BUTYRAC® 200 (2-4DB) can be used if needed.

This thread will explain in detail but this is meant just as a quick reference




This a clover seeding that was frost seeded this past winter. I clipped the weeds once earlier but it's time to do it again. A little grass is coming up also but I'm hoping to wait until next spring to hit the grass with Select Max. Select vs Poast Plus (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20362)

This plot had been in brome sod, so I mowed it August, waited for it to greenup and sprayed it with 2 quarts of Roundup Max in September.

This left little surface residue and no grass competition for the new frost seeding.

PH was fine and I put on #300 of 6-24-24 fertilizer.

Normal seeding rates for white clover are roughly 4#'s per acre and 8-12#'s for red clover but when frost seeding it doesn't hurt to up the rate to 6-8#'s and 10-15#. Frost seeding is a very effective, easy and economical method of establishing clovers especially in areas where tillage is not possible.

In most cases we will be frost seeding in Feb./March when there is little or no snow cover and the ground is freezing at night, thawing during the day.

Use a small hand seeder or calibrated ATV spreader or even a drill and sow seed in early morning when ground is frozen.

Be aware however that some clovers such as annual Berseem Clover cannot be frost seeded!! I would also like to pointout that many commercial "brand" mixes such as WI's Imperial Clover contain as much as 30% berseem...so frost seeding these mixes means you will be throwing away (literally) a third on the money you spent on seed!!

A much better option is to buy and plant the specific seeds you will need in your situation.

I have found Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0) to be an excellent source for "seeds by the pound". They will gladly ship you 5#'sor 500 and mine often arrives the next day!

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264) is one of the finest, most drought resistant white clovers for midwest and northern areas that is available and will allow you to plant an acre of premium white clover for 20 bucks!


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FrostseededcloverinJune.jpg

We will try to cover every concievable aspect of planting and maintaining clover food plots in this thread as we go along.

Frost seeding, spring seeding, summer and very early fall seedings. We'll cover using herbicides, when and when not to clip, what types, varieties and brands of clover to plant and hopefully answer every imaginable question at the same time.

[dbltree]

I've clipped my clover twice now which is keeping the weeds at bay. This clover is planted on a "clay knob" so the soil is pretty poor.
Despite that it has done fairly well considering the drought.
It's mostly white clover with some ladino. Ladino is still a white clover but it gets a little taller and larger leaves. The white clover never gets very tall so mowing is more for weed control then anything.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Julyclover.jpg

The entire plot is covered with beds like this one:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Moreevidence.jpg

This clover is only 80 yards from my RR corn/bean field and across the fence from a large field of alfalfa. Niether one have stopped the deer from "feasting" on my corn and beans /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[dbltree]

How much does poast cost per gallon?



I wouldn't want to have it shipped in as it's available at most fertilizer dealers, but this price gives you a rough idea:

Poast Plus Price (http://www.cooperseeds.com/catalog/poast-plus-p2035.html)

2 1/2 gallons goes a long way too!

Application Rate for Poast (http://ohioline.osu.edu/weeds/weeds_165.html)

Select 2 EC herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld67N005.pdf) is used for control of grasses in alfalfa and clover. 4-8 oz. per acre costing $5-15 an acre. Select runs roughly $125-140 per gallon but we have found it to be a much more effective grass herbicide then Poast Plus for the same or slightly less cost per acre.

Select (clethodim) must be used with crop oil and can also be used in soybeans, field peas, brassicas, sugar beets, sunflowers and a whole host of "non grass" type plants. Read the label carefully but this highly effective grass herbicide has many uses from your garden to your food plot.

Arrow (generic version of Select grass herbicide) (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld6DN002.pdf) Always check for generic versions that are equally as effective for...less!

BUTYRAC® 200 (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4JG000.pdf) (2-4DB) is used for controlling broadleaf weeds in clover and alfalfa.


A list of all herbicides and the cost per gallon. It's continued at the bottom of each page as it goes from A-Z.
Poast is listed at $65 a gal. with a range of $4-12 per acre depending on the rate:

Weed control costs (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/w253/w253-5a.htm)

Find Poast at bottom of page (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/w253/w253-5d.htm)

General guide to all crops and weed ID and herbicide comparisons:

2006 NORTH DAKOTA WEED CONTROL GUIDE (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/w253/w253w.htm)

[dbltree]

I planted a plot to a mix of white, red and ladino clover today. I'm really not that crazy about red clover for deer but it was in a mix I split with a friend.

The plot was in brome sod, so I mowed, allowed it to greenup and sprayed with Roundup several weeks prior to tilling it.

Plant clover at 5-8# per acre and use the smallest setting if using a hand seeder.

I feel inoculation is very important with legume seed. Even pre-inoculated seed has a "shelf life" so why take a chance for $4.00

Inoculate (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208)

Very simple to mix, can be done dry but it doesn't stick well. Make sure you keep your inoculate cool (fridge is best) until just before you use it. Don't throw it on the truck seat and let it bake for an hour first! Mix it just before you go or take a small cooler.

I mixed mine and then went over and planted it this morning before it got real warm.

Inoculate from Welter Seed, a bucket and the clover seed. Add a very small amount of water, just enough to moisten the seed and mix before adding inoculate.



In the rush of planting it is sometimes easy just to load the grain drill with seed and simply dump the peat product on top assuming it will work its way through the seed and into the soil as you move across the field. This approach can prove to be a costly mistake. In reality, the peat works its way down to the bottom of the seed box and moves little beyond that point. To obtain uniform seed coverage, the most effective method is to use a "sticker" and mix the inoculate with a volume of seed that is manageable to accomplish good coverage. This may mean mixing at three or four different times during the course of filling the seed box.

Many products can be used as a sticker. One cheap and effective approach is to purchase an off-brand two liter bottle of citrus soda and punch several pin holes in the top of the cap. The container can then be used similar to a spray bottle. Apply a small amount of soda over the top of the seed prior to adding the inoculate and then mix thoroughly using an elbow length latex glove making sure every seed is covered. By doing so, the problem of having the inoculate sit at the bottom of the




http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cloverinoculate.jpg

Then add inoculate, a bag will do a 100#'s so "a little dab'll do ya" :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Readytomixinoculate.jpg

Mix it up good (handy to have someplace to wash up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MixCloverInoculate.jpg

My son tilled the spot up yesterday which was all sod and golderod. I went over it once this morning again with the tiller and the packer behind.

Remember...pack...seed...pack again.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TillnPack2.jpg

Finished clover plot

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Sept7Fin.jpg

I frost seeded this clover last winter and I've mowed it 4 times this year. It needs it again as it still has foxtail and ragweed popping up in it.


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Sept7Clover.jpg


Comparing clover to alfalfa...it is easier to maintain but still requires frequent clipping and/or spraying.
The clover won't last as long as alfalfa but I will rotate these two plots with brassicas when they die out.

[dbltree]

My baby clover is popping up!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newcloverseeding.jpg

Good thing...because they are mowing the patch right beside it!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Browseevidence.jpg

If you can't hay it...clover is a lot easier to maintain. Stick with low growing clovers like white and ladino clovers for an easy to take care of plot.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Septclover.jpg

Don't seem to need much fertilizer...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cloverfertilizer.jpg

If you have enough acreage to rent it out for hay, check out: Alfalfa (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14800)

[dbltree]

Dbltree, do you prefer frost seeding or fall planting clover. I put in almost 5 acres in the spring 4 acres this year and 1 acre last year. I think I have learned my lesson, do it in the fall. My fields have turned out beautiful, but it was high maintenance. We had to spray 2-4-DB and Poast twice, to keep the grass and weed at bay. That gets timely and expensive. I expect the clover to be so thick next spring that it will out compete the grasses and weeds. From now on I plan to nuke the field at least once then try a fall planting, my fear with this is that the clover will not be capable of dominating the field in the spring, any thoughts?



There are pros and cons to each seeding method and no one type is right for everyone.

Spring seeding normally has great moisture which in turn brings a flush of weeds that one has to fight all summer.

Frost seeding is great because little equipment is needed. Mow and spray this time of year and seed in late winter. Germination may not always be as good, resulting in an uneven stand sometimes. Certain clovers frost seed easier then others.

Late summer seeding with timely moisture (which can be iffy) will normally result in near perfect germination. It's easy to work down a great seedbed and no racing against the clock due to spring storms etc.

Weeds will germinate just as they do in spring, however the first hard frost will leave broadleaves and foxtail looking like you nuked it with Roundup.

Both clover and alfalfa require frequent mowing, but a thick stand should keep weeds from coming back.
Eventually grasses like brome will start to creep in and Select Max or Select 2-EC may be needed to extend the life of the stand.

To answer your ?? directly...I prefer August (late July to early Sept.) clear seeding of either clovers or alfalfa. Adding oats will give you some early fall feed and a nice mulch when frost kills it off.

You clover should be fine next spring with mowing alone, but keep us posted...we all learn something from each success or failure.

[dbltree]

Do you still nuke the fields for a fall planting, or just let winter take care of the weeds for you, and do you use a tiller or disc, we have used both with about equal success.





If it's in sod forming grasses such as brome or fescue then yes, I always nuke it with Roundup first.

In both the frost seeded clover and the summer seeding in this post I killed the sod first.
I try to mow, let it start to regrow and then give it the "works" using 2 quarts of RUP.

If it is a plot that has been in some type of "crop" (foodplot) like beans, brassicas,wheat etc. then...no, just till and plant because weeds are going to come up no matter if you use roundup or not.
Annual weeds aren't the problem...grasses are and if you don't knock them out...they'll be back...

For clover plots I always use my tiller and cultipacker for a fine well packed seedbed.

[locust]

I'm going to be frost seeding firebreaks this winter...I've killed the firebreaks this september. I checked prices at Welter and was thinking of using a mix of red/white and a smaller percentage of perennial rye. Do you see a problem with that mix? My firebreaks(foodplots) are in a not too accessible area so I'm looking for something that will frost seed well and will stay green with minimal maintenance so I'm leaning towards a mix that will stand up as a green firebreak more than a foodplot. Any suggestions would be appreicated. I'm also going to use an ATV and spreader and hope I don't overdue the seed like I did last time...I put a 50 lb bag out way too quick because I misjudged the size of the seed and how quick it went out.

[Skully]

..I put a 50 lb bag out way too quick because I misjudged the size of the seed and how quick it went out.



Some of those seeders can take some practice!

I did the same thing a few weeks ago. I had planted an oat/rye mix and then turned around and dumped in wheat seed on the same setting. Man that wheat pours out fast!

[dbltree]

Man that wheat pours out fast!


:) ;)

Ryegrass is fine...as long as you don't plan on deer eating it They aren't that crazy about it but as noted, it's not really for a foodplot.

I prefer straight clovers for a fire break simply because it doesn't have as much thatch like grasses do. I found out the hard way how quickly a very little fire can creep thru a green, mowed fire break...just by burning the thatch.
Don't ask me what happens when it gets to the other side....

[locust]

I've heard that red clovers establish quickly and in not the greatest soils. would you consider that a better food plot alternative vs. rye? Due to my spreader-ineptness I'm sure I'll buy twice as much seed as I need, so if clovers work well on their own as firebreaks, maybe I'll go that route. I'm talking 4-5 acres at the most.

[TimberPig]

If you do decide to add rye to your firebreaks you might try some Linn perennial rye. I've planted about 50lbs of it in the last 3 years and it turned out well. It is a very short grass, in fact it is used in many lawn mixes so it will minimize thatch problems. I planted straight Linn in between my field wind break rows and also added it to my fire breaks, so far so good. It seems to grow to about 8"-12" max and seeds out fairly early in the year. It doesnt do much growing after seeds head form even if you mow it. Worthless for food or cover, but it doesnt seem to out compete my clover. In fact I have quite a bit of volunteer clover coming up in my wind break as a bonus.

[dbltree]

If you do decide to add rye to your firebreaks you might try some Linn perennial rye. I've planted about 50lbs of it in the last 3 years and it turned out well. It is a very short grass, in fact it is used in many lawn mixes so it will minimize thatch problems. I planted straight Linn in between my field wind break rows and also added it to my fire breaks, so far so good. It seems to grow to about 8"-12" max and seeds out fairly early in the year. It doesnt do much growing after seeds head form even if you mow it. Worthless for food or cover, but it doesnt seem to out compete my clover. In fact I have quite a bit of volunteer clover coming up in my wind break as a bonus.



Sounds like that might be worth trying. Red Clover is very easy to seed and grows on just about anything, but it does get taller and heavier then the white clovers. If your going to keep it mowed it would be ok, but white clovers last longer.

[dbltree]

This is clover seedlings planted in late August with oats. They sure needed a drink and cooler weather. These are pretty clean but if there are any annual weeds the temps this morning will take care of them!
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clovernoats.jpg

The clover/oats combo works well to establish a seeding and have a little fall forage as well. Guess we'll see how much it takes to "toast"the oats [

The deer sure have been munching on my "cheap" oats

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct7cloverseedlings.jpg

I haven't checked my clear seeding yet...don't want all the deer heading to Davers place

[dbltree]

These are end of season pics of clover seeded in August with oats. It's a great way to have a fall foodplot and establish clover at the same time.

The deer have completely mowed the oats:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallClover3.jpg


One advantage to oats is that it will die with cold weather but still leave a root mulch.


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallClover2.jpg


There were weeds coming up but frost took care of them

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallClover1.jpg

Fall planting of clover helps eliminate the need for herbicides sometimes required with spring planting.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallClover.jpg

Of course if equipment (such as a cultipacker) is a problem then fall planted oats or rye is a great planting to frost seed clover into in late winter

[dbltree]

Here's what my clover looks like in mid-December:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DecClover.jpg

Not exactly the succulant draw it was in October

The new seeding that I clear seeded (previously in this thread) looks kinda bare at first glance:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/babycloverinDec.jpg

But close up shows plenty of baby clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Fallseededclover.jpg

It's just waitin to bust loose come spring

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NewseedinginDec.jpg

Including oats would have made a good fall plot that will "self destruct" leaving only the clover in the spring!

If anyone has some clover that is still green this time of year..share some pics and variety if known.

[dbltree]

It's getting time to start thinking about frost seeding clover in the next month or so. Hopefully you have killed the sod last fall or have a cereal grain planting to seed into. The least residue possible such as a soybean patch ensures good soil/seed contact when frost seeding.

Normal seeding rates run 5-8# per acre but frost seedings could be a little heavier.

Soil test if at all possible to check PH and fertility levels. A ph between 6.4 and 7 would be better for clovers. You can send samples in thru your local ISU extension service for some where around $8-10 per sample or your local ag supply may do it for free if you purchase your fertilizer there.

6-24-24 is an easy mix to purchase in bags and can be applied anytime when ground is frozen at 200-400# per acre (if a soil test hasn't been done)

400#'s x 24# actual will give you 96# actual P&K per acre.

Lime can be a problem on small plots because some areas can require as high as 6-7 tons per acre and a commercial lime spreader may not want to bother with a 1/2 acre plot.

Liquid lime is a possible: Liquid lime (http://www.turboturf.com/Liquid_Lime.htm) but it is pricey when you include shipping and is not as long lasting as ag lime.

In many cases it might be best to have a load of lime delivered and spread it yourself via a tractor or ATV mounted spreader. In either case...now is the time to put in on as it takes time to correct the soil ph.

This link contains many links to taking soil samples, proper soil testing and great information about liming! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Soil Sampling and liming links (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=179328#Post179328)

Red clover is the easiest to frost seed but one of the poorest types of clover to use for deer.

White clovers (which include Ladino) are preferred foodplot clovers and are available in many types of mixes however I urge you to check labels because many companies include red clover as well as Berseem clover which can NOT be frost seeded.

Buying because of a fancy label does not ensure success or deer preferance

Example of varieties sutiable for frost seeding:


Jumbo Ladino Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=51)

Ladino Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=50)

Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52)

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

You can also frost seed chicory with your clover:

Oasis Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=319)

Forage Chicory info (http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/uc116.pdf)

I bought a small bag of WI clover last year and found that it contained a 32% Berseem clover which is an annual clover and not suitable for frost seeding. You won't know what's in the bag until you can read the seed label, so many people pay a very high price for this seed and throw away a 1/3 of the bag... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

WI Imp. Clover (http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/products/clover/)

Again you will notice these "blends" contain Red clovers which will grow well but may not be preferred by deer over white clovers:

Biologic Clover (http://www.mossyoakbiologic.com/products/default.asp?id=11&section=peren)

Some pre-mixed seed one has no idea what actually is in it?

Tecomate (http://store.tecomate.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=T&Product_Code=5015&Category_Code=TecomateSeed)

I've heard good things about Durana White Clover but it's more common in southern states. It is however a white clover and perhaps worth trying if it will do well in northeren areas.

Durana Clover (http://www.penningtonseed.com/section/forage_02.asp?type=articles&id=663)

Clover seed is very fine so use a small hand seeder set on the lowest setting. Walk at a brisk walk as you seed until you have covered your plot, then repeat the process walking perpindicular to your previous path to make sure you have covered the area well.

You can always re-cover the area if you have seed leftover however if you run out...you'll be ordering more seed and finishing it up another time!

Check the Herbicides (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=174408&fpart=1) section for more info and sources,
but if your unable to control weeds and grasses by clipping your clover you may need to use herbicides.

Apply Butyrac 200 at 2-4 pints per acre ($8-18 per acre costs) to control broadleaf weeds.

Butyrac 200 (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4JG000.pdf)

Apply Basf poast herbicide (http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00796900058&DIST_NR=0079 69) at .5 to 1.5 pints per acre ($5 -15 per acre costs) to control grasses. Remember to include crop oil with Poast.

Rates per acre: Poast rates (http://ohioline.osu.edu/weeds/weeds_165.html)


Select 2 EC herbicide (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld67N005.pdf) is a grass control herbicide for use in clover and alfalfa. 4-8 oz./$5-15 per acre. Available in one gallon at approx. $120-160 per gallon.

If you frost seed into rye or wheat or spring plant with oats you can spray with Poast or Select when the cereal grains are 6 to 10" high.

The grains will dye slowly creating a fantastic mulch for the new clover (or alfalfa) seedlings.

Don't have a plot ready to frost seed clover? Don't get you shorts in a bunch! Still plenty of options including spring and late summer seeding. Late summer seeding with oats will give you a lush fall food plot and let you skip the herbicides as noted in previous posts in this thread.

Clover is not the ultimate late season food plot as it tends to freeze out fairly early but it is a perfect foodplot for small plots and someone with little or no equipment.

If you want late season legumes and have equipment to maintain it, Alfalfa (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=227592&fpart=1) may be a better option.

White clover is not as long lived as alfalfa lasting 3-5 years but it's short growing nature makes it easier to maintain by clipping it periodically.

It's flowers are an insect magnet which will help feed young turkey poults and you can't beat a clover plot as a great spot to harvest that big tom turkey!

When your clover plot is worn out, follow it with a nitrogen loving plot like brassicas, cereal grains, corn or sourghum.

[risto2351]

Paul,
I have been reading on the Brassicas and clover articles. I need to start over in the clover plots. They are 4-5 years old and are getting real weedy.
I have half in clover and the other half is in Brassicas. Could I just swap them out with each other?
Another question I was wondering. I thought that deer preferred clover over alfalfa due to it being more palatable. Just wondering.
Looking to do a few things different this year and you bring a lot to the table. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Risto

[dbltree]

I have half in clover and the other half is in Brassicas. Could I just swap them out with each other?





That's exactly what you should do! Take advantage of the nitrogen from the clover. Kill the clover (weeds, grass and all) in early to mid July and sow your brassicas in late July to early August.

You could frost seed clover into the current brassica patch but it might be rough and that makes mowing a bear!

You may be better off to plan a late summer seeding of clover and oats where the brassicas are now.

Great rotation combo!



I thought that deer preferred clover over alfalfa due to it being more palatable. Just wondering.





That's a good question but since I have both...they eat both! I have clover literally side by side with alfalfa and I think they actually prefer the alfalfa...but they don't stick around for me to ask them

The only question is which is more manageable for you?

Alfalfa is better if someone can take it off for hay because it gets to tall, thick and heavy. It requires frequent mowing and if it's not removed it can smother itself with it's own clippings.

Red clover is nearly as bad but white clover is much shorter and eaiser to maintain.

Like all foodplots each has it's pros and cons...half the fun though is trying different things for yourself and see what works for you

[TimberSpirit]

I was thinking about frost seeding some WI clover over this patch. The deer are rooting it up like hogs for the purple tops.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TimberspiritBrassicapic.jpg

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was thinking about frost seeding some WI clover over this patch. The deer are rooting it up like hogs for the purple tops.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TimberspiritBrassicapic.jpg
</div></div>

You could easily frost seed clover on to that soil surface however you will be sorry when you need to mow and/or spray it!

It will be rougher then a cobb...otherwise it will work great

It's a good example of why I suggest tilling a brassica patch up before planting clover. They sure do make a mess digging those turnips up!

I'd also like to mention once again that WI clover may contain as much as 30% Berseem Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=332) which is an annual clover (it's not going to live year to year) and you can NOT frost seed it.

The white clovers in the WI mix will grow via frost seeding however your just throwing 30% of the seed/cost away

[huntdoc]

Have you ever tried Kura clover? The Ed Spin book from QDMA raves about it.

If it would quit raining I could get some more lime on!

[dbltree]

Have you ever tried Kura clover? The Ed Spin book from QDMA raves about it.




I have not tried Kura clover yet but I have been intrigued by it for some time


The advantage to Kura is that once established it can virtually last forever since it spreads by rhizomes.

The disadvantage is that it is very slow and somewhat difficult to get established.

Deer hunters... like farmers just don't want to wait that long...we want clover and we want it now!

I think if one has a plot that is in a difficult place and you wanted to keep it in clover...forever, it might be worth trying.

I expect one would need to use herbicides because it cannot stand much competition. I would also plan on conventional tillage as shown earlier in this thread.

Note: "The seed must be inoculated with rhizobia specifically for kura clover before planting,"

Kura Clover (http://www.uky.edu/Ag/NewCrops/introsheets/kuraclover.pdf)

Kura in Iowa (http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/soybean/production_kuraclover.html)

Kura Clover in WI (http://www.cals.wisc.edu/media/news/01_97/kura_clover.html)

Kura Clover in Kentucky (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr141/agr141.htm)

Don't frost seed (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/pubs/Kura_stands.htm)

ISUE Kura Clover Info (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/NR/rdonlyres/B090C051-8602-4456-B3D6-1ED769C2D495/46838/EstablishingKuraClover.pdf)

Kura Clover Seed Source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=48)

[dbltree]

My clover fields look they have been roto-tilled. The deer appear to have been scraping the ground with their hooves to expose even a 1/4" more stem for them then to snip off. My son, who remembers mowing that field this Summer when the weeds were pretty thick, could not believe it was the same place now.

In fact, the clover has been so closely cropped that I wonder if it would be wise to overseed during the late winter. How much abuse can the clover take and still come back?






I moved this ? over to the clover thread Dave...

I assume this is a new first year seeding...in which case they may quite possibly have done some damage.

A friend seeded alfalfa and oats for a neighbor (foodplot)in mid summer. He said the other day that the deer had literally pulled the alfalfa seedlings out by the roots!

Good grief...I thought I had it bad

In your case Dave it wouldn't hurt to frost seed some clover back over those areas...the seed won't cost that much versus being dissapointed if nothing survives the "onslought"

Otherwise you would have to re-till and start over if you find they "killed it".

I suspect the open mild winter has made it to easy for them where some snow cover/frozen ground might have protected it.

[Daver]

I think I will play it safe and overseed it.

Here's an idea... would it make any sense to mix a little alfalfa in with the clover? Say like 10%-20% alfalfa with 80% clover.

[TimberSpirit]

Thanks for the advice dtree. Maybe I will just head to SS and pick up some Ladino and wait till snow is in the forcast.

[dbltree]

I think I will play it safe and overseed it.

Here's an idea... would it make any sense to mix a little alfalfa in with the clover? Say like 10%-20% alfalfa with 80% clover.





Mixing it would be ok normally but alfalfa doesn't frost seed very well. It needs much warmer temps to germinate and it's kinda pricey to waste it.

On the other hand if you wanted to try 5-10#'s it's gonna cost you something under 50 bucks and you might end up with some alfalfa in the mix.

Welters will usually sell it by the pound if you give them a call.

I'll cover it more in th alfalfa thread but it's more common to frost seed clover into a thinning alfalfa stand then vice versa.

If you try it...I offer "free inspection" the month of November...

Frost seed info (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/pubs/frostsd.htm)

[huntdoc]

Checked with local feed store and he has alsike, ladino, and medium red clover seed on hand. Others can be ordered including white dutch. Any experience or thoughts on frost-seeding these? Guessing the medium red is just another red which isn't great.

[dbltree]

Checked with local feed store and he has alsike, ladino, and medium red clover seed on hand. Others can be ordered including white dutch. Any experience or thoughts on frost-seeding these? Guessing the medium red is just another red which isn't great.



Yep...it's just a red clover, it's easy to frost seed but you'll have to mow it a lot more and it get's rank later on.

White and ladino clover is much shorter and easier to maintain not to mention "tastier" to deer

If I had to pick one clover it would be ladino which is a white clover developed for grazing.

Alsike won't hurt to mix with the white clovers.

If your buying it from a local co-op or feed store you'll want to buy some inoculant (it's "dirt" cheap )

Check the Welters link in this thread if they don't have it where you buy your seed.

[ajadams]

I have a small area that my dad did some dozing along some fence lines this fall and I'm planning on planting it into clover. I usualy plant lidino and chicory mix. This area is all fenced and surrounded by timber so there is no way of mowing it after I frost seed it this winter. I'm going to plant apple and pear trees in there and fill in with clover. Any type that would be ok not mowed?

[dbltree]

Any type that would be ok not mowed?





The regular white clovers wouldn't get as tall and might be better in this case.

Remember there is always the weed whacker for small spots and a hand sprayer if weeds get outa hand

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=340)

Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52)

[cheryl19]

bottom line, if i asked you to pick one all around clover what would it be? Is their a specific mix you like? also, am i safe frost seeding around the first weekend in march? thanks

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bottom line, if i asked you to pick one all around clover what would it be? Is their a specific mix you like? also, am i safe frost seeding around the first weekend in march? thanks </div></div>

If I only had one choice I would go with Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

but since I do have other choices I would mix Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52) 1/3, 1/3 Alice and 1/3 Jumbo Ladino White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=51) .

That's the nice thing...we all have so many choices!

Lot's of good commercial mixes that will do great...just awful expensive IMO.

First of March should be perfect for frost seeding!

Frost Seeding Legumes (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/frostsd.htm)

Frost Seeding pros n cons (http://www.umaine.edu/animalsci/Foragecrops/Frost%20Seeding.pdf) Frost Seeding (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/ag/newsletters/frostseeding.pdf)

Late Winter Frost Seeding (http://www.umass.edu/umext/programs/agro/crop_dairy/publications/c_frost_seed.htm)

[risto2351]

Paul,
Good morning!!
Couple of questions for you.

We had a pond dug last fall. Pasture mix was put down after it was done. There was some but limited growth.

I was planning on frost seeding some clover like you suggested with Chicory.
I have not checked the PH yet.
Will the clover and Chicory work with the pasture mix. Also should I wait until I check the PH first.
Thanks for your help.

[dbltree]

Will the clover and Chicory work with the pasture mix. Also should I wait until I check the PH first.





Clover is very easily frost seeded into pasture especially when it has been grazed close to the ground.

In your case I suspect the ground is already somewhat bare so both clover and chicory should frost seed well.

It would have been better to check and correct the PH because it takes lime so long to work but you can do it after the fact.

I have yet to have clover simply fail because of low PH it just doesn't thrive.

The forecast looks like warm days and cold nights...perfect for frost seeding. Just take a soil sample while your out there and get some lime or pelleted lime (if it's a small area) applied, if the test shows you need it.

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264) is pretty easy to frost seed and Alsike Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=41) is one that can stand a little more acid soil.

I don't care much for Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=34) for deer but it's also very easy to frost seed and works well where the soil has been disturbed as in the case of a pond or ditching.

[risto2351]

Thanks Dbl.
I know I should of took the soil sample last fall. I walked around it a hundred times. I really did not even think about it.

I might have to do it after I frost seed it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alice White Clover is pretty easy to frost seed and Alsike Clover is one that can stand a little more acid soil. </div></div>

I was going to use the Jumbo Ladino and the Kopu II 1/2 and 1/2 with some chicory. Do you like the two you quoted here better?
Thanks for the info.

[Ghost]

Risto...I had real good luck with the Alice White.

It was recommended to me because it can withstand heavy grazing pressure.

I plan to seed this week with some Jumbo Ladino and chicory. The weather this week looks perfect for frost seeding.:)

[dbltree]

I was going to use the Jumbo Ladino and the Kopu II 1/2 and 1/2 with some chicory





Those two are excellent as well and what I would use normally, the first two might just work a little better at low PH's...but the two you picked would be preferred deer forage IMO (for what that's worth)

[dbltree]

It took me a bit to find it...but here's a pic I took last summer of a farmer friends pasture.

He frost seeds clover by mixing clover seed in with the fertilizer and spreading the mix on his cattle pasture in March.

You can see how well it came up even with all the competion from the grass

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frostseededcloverinpasture.jpg

[risto2351]

OK Paul time for another one of my dumb questions.
Is the inoculant the same as fertilizer? If not what type of fertilizer should I mix with it before I frost seed it?

[dbltree]

Is the inoculant the same as fertilizer?



No...Inoculation is the process of adding the proper Rhizobia bacteria to the legume seed so that N2-fixation can occur.

Most Welters clover seed is pre-inoculated but buying a fresh bag of it won't hurt...it's cheap enough!

Alfalfa/Clover Inoculation (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208)

I believe I posted pics earlier in this thread of how to mix it...little water (don't use soda)and take along something to wash your hands...won't hurt you but your hands will be black as coal!

Fertilizer is entirely different and for clover you can buy bagged 6-24-24 for a small area.

200-300#'s per acre will do the trick or dig up your soil test and see what it calls for.

Bulk fertilizer is cheaper of course but hard to get a cart/spreader for a small amount and if the area is steep it might not be safe anyway.

This link explains fertilizing and inoculating legumes:

Fertilizing Alfalfa and Clover (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/soilfert/sf728w.htm)

[Iowabowtech]

Well, I'm heading out Friday to clear up some areas I want to frost seed with clover. This will be my first try and I'm really wondering how I'm going to select a setting on either a hand operated seeder or a walk behind broadcast seeder to get the recommended 2-4 lbs/acre?

The seed seems to be a tad expensive to be going overboard for no reason. Any tips?

[dbltree]

Well, I'm heading out Friday to clear up some areas I want to frost seed with clover. This will be my first try and I'm really wondering how I'm going to select a setting on either a hand operated seeder or a walk behind broadcast seeder to get the recommended 2-4 lbs/acre?

The seed seems to be a tad expensive to be going overboard for no reason. Any tips?





I use a small grass seeder set on the lowest setting. I go at a fast walk until I've crossed the plot one way...and then turn and repeat the process the other way to keep from missing areas.

It is a little "by guess and by gosh" when hand seeding such fine seed.

If I have seed left over then I just go back over the plot until I've used it up...which is a whole lot better then running out

It's even difficult to close down a bag type seeder so I use a small grass seeder like this one:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingSupplies.jpg

If you have several small plots to do, then pace them off and figure out how much seed you need for each one and divide it a head of time.

[Iowabowtech]

If you have several small plots to do, then pace them off and figure out how much seed you need for each one and divide it a head of time.




Great thinking and I appreciate the other tips as well. Thanks for the continual help and knowledge on this stuff Paul.

[huntdoc]

I think you have covered this before, but I am getting nervous ahead of my first frost seeding. Do you inoculate when frost seeding? Still have 10 inches of snow to melt but may not take long.

[dbltree]

Do you inoculate when frost seeding?



Yes...always us inoculant any time you seed legumes.

It's often pre-inoculated but it may be old so for a few bucks...why take a chance.

Welter's clover seed is almost always pre-inoculated but I always add some fresh "dirt" (it's just a little bag of peat like substance)

[Shedhuntermd]

Is the end of February too early to frost seed cover?

This will be my first time frost seeding; I hope the early germination will help out compete the weeds.

I am planning to plant 6 more acres March 2nd, Maryland is a little warmer, but not too much.

[dbltree]

Is the end of February too early to frost seed clover?



Nope...maybe as good as it gets!

Normally we get good "frost seeding" weather thru mid-March but the next few days and into next week look perfect!

[risto2351]

Dbl.
Sent my order in. I am getting Jumbo Ladino, Kopu II and some Alice Clover.

I will probably use the Alice, Chicory
and some of the other around the pond.
What I have let will be used at other areas. Alsike looked good but has a short life span.
Top notch service. Thanks for the reference.

Something should grow.

[huntdoc]

Besides wasting money, what will using too heavy of a seeding rate with clover do? Will it supress growth like other seed? Guess I figured to go heavy since this isn't as efficient as tilled ground.

Calling from freezing rain, ice, and then maybe snow here so not looking good. http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bjkpharmd]

I've always seeded on the heavy side- would rather have wasted a little seed than have a sparse thin stand that I'm not happy about.
There is still plenty of time to seed- clover will germinate is fairly cold ground but it is going to be early April (at least in SE Iowa) most years before any real growth occurs.
I still want to run a harrow over some clumps and fill in some holes before I seed so I'm hoping for a little cold dry weather once the snow melts.

[dbltree]

I've always seeded on the heavy side- would rather have wasted a little seed than have a sparse thin stand that I'm not happy about.
There is still plenty of time to seed- clover will germinate is fairly cold ground but it is going to be early April (at least in SE Iowa) most years before any real growth occurs.






Can't beat that advice! :)

[dbltree]

I posted this info in the Alfalfa (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=227592&fpart=1) thread but many of you will be frost seeding clover and chicory at the same time...so I'll include it here as well.

It's the first full week of March and the weather and timing are perfect!

Ground is froze hard enough to walk on in the morning...but turning to "grease" by late morning.

Boys...it don't get no better then this for frost seeding! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I was seeding chicory only:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantingSupplies-1.jpg

but you could easily mix it and add some inoculant (it won't hurt the chicory)

Chicory seed is a little bulkier then clover but not very heavy, so it doesn't spread very far.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ChicorySeed.jpg

I spread some on to a new late summer seeding (I could have just planted it at the same time /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif )

Not much residue so it will make for good soil/seed contact:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newcloverseeding-1.jpg

This is a year old clover seeding with a little more "trash" from foxtail that came up late in the summer...we'll see how it does.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Yearoldcloverseeding.jpg

There are only a few types of chicory commonly available of wich Puna is an old standby.

I planted Oasis at 3-4# per acre at a cost of $6.20 a pound.

Oasis Forage Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=319)

Puna Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=77)

In a mix it's reccomended to go 2-3# per acre but when frost seeding I generally go a little heavier.

Some links on chicory and how to mange it:

Forage Chicory (http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/uc116.pdf)

Growing Chicory (http://www.farminfo.org/forage/chicory.htm)

About Chicory (http://www.modernforage.com/Perennials_Chicory.html)

Barenbrug Forage Chicory Varieties (http://www.barusa.com/Products_Forage/Chicory.htm)

Chicory (http://www.forages.psu.edu/topics/species_variety_trials/species/chicory/index.html)

Pics of chicory:

http://forages.oregonstate.edu/media_library/chicory/screen/035.jpg

http://forages.oregonstate.edu/media_library/chicory/screen/034.jpg

Puna Chicory:

http://mulch.cropsoil.uga.edu/research/slides/Chicory/b%20(13).jpg

No-tilled into bermuda sod:

http://mulch.cropsoil.uga.edu/research/slides/Chicory/b%20(11).jpg

This after a severe drought..only thing green is the puna chicory:

http://mulch.cropsoil.uga.edu/research/slides/Chicory/b%20(2).jpg


If you are going to frost seed a mix of clover and chicory I would conside a mix of the following:

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52)

Jumbo Ladino White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=51)

don't foget Clover Inoculate (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208) it's cheap insurance!

At approx 2# each it will run you approx. $36 an acre

or there other options that cost considerably more but are fine products nonetheless:

CHICORY PLUS (http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/products/chicory/order.php)

210 Tecomate Chicory (http://www.barusa.com/tecomate/products-chicory.html)

Clover and Chicory Blend (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0030732227084a&amp;type=product&amp;cmCat=sear ch&amp;returnPage=search-results1.jsp&amp;No=40&amp;Ntt=food+plot+seed&amp;noImage=0&amp;Nt k=Products&amp;QueryText=food+plot+seed&amp;Ntx=matchall&amp;N =4887&amp;Nty=1)

Cabela's Ultimate Forage - Chicory (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0030732227082a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntk=Products&QueryText=chicory+seed&sort=all&Go.y=8&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&Go.x=12&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1)

Mossy Oak® BioLogic™ Chicory Seed (http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTarget=search&amp;hvarTextId=62785&amp; hvarAID=yahoo&amp;cm_mmc=Yahoo%20Search%20Submit%20Pro-_-Hunting_Hunting%20Accessories_Game%20Feed-_--1-_-Mossy%20Oak%20BioLogic%20Chicory%20Seed)

Seeds by the pound (http://www.maxirack.com/poundseeds.html)

Albert Lea Seed House NZ Clover (http://www.alseed.com/prodinfo.php?pid=5&amp;SID=f7f8ecb5e743f9e6db08e831a7d a818b)

Obviously there plenty of choices and price ranges.

When it comes to clover mixes...beware...many include cheaper Red Clovers and annuals such as Berseem clover (Berseem CANNOT be frost seeded)

I would also beware of "scientifically engineered" claims as well... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

[dbltree]

White clover is one of the highest in crude protein often as high as 25% or higher. (red clover is often only 15 to 18%)

Keep in mind that in all crops CP and TDN can vary widely even in a particuler field let alone bewteen different plots and at different testing stages.

White and ladino clovers are generally considered the best grazing clovers and university agronimist's have spent years developing better clovers.

They search out those specimens that can survive drought and the heavy trampling of 1200# cows and develop better strains.

Seed companies such as Ampac and Barenburg then continue that research commercially and eventually market a superior type of seed thru your local seed dealer or places like Welters Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/default.aspx)

Knowing the attributes of clover varieties can help you decide which clovers or blends of clover seed will grow best in your situation.

Alice White Clover (http://www.barusa.com/Products_Forage/Alice.pdf) has proven to be one of the top varieties in studies comparing clovers.

This LEGUME/FORB VARIETY EVALUATION (http://extension.missouri.edu/adair/Livestock/forageupdate.htm) shows that Alice outproduced other types and after 3 years was still #1

This Alice test (http://www.forgraze.com/AliceWhiteCloverArticle.htm) proved how it was able to survive despite heavy grazing and drought.

This report compares the ability of a number of clovers to withstand years of heavy grazing....

2006 Red and White Clover Grazing report (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/pr/pr545/pr545.pdf)

Kopu II Clover (http://www.ampacseed.com/kopu2.htm) is a New Zealand bred clover with similer attributes.

It's compared here: Pastures Benefit From White Clover (http://www.agriview.com/articles/2004/03/12/crop_news/producer01.txt)

It's important to remember that forages like clover are constantly be refined and improved for the livestock industry where farmers must squeeze out every ounce of protien and production per acre that is possible.

They must have plants that will tolerate drought and not die out after several years like red clover.

This is how and why UGA agronimists developed Durana Clover (http://www.biggameproshop.com/pennington-foodplot-seed.htm) it's an interesting process of selecting "survivor" plants when all others have ceased to exisit...and then breeding those plants to produce a better plant capable of surviving under seemingly impossible conditions.

The truth about Durana (http://www.buckmasters.com/bm/Resources/PenningtonFoodPlots/tabid/175/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/370/The-Whole-Truth-About-Durana-White-Clover.aspx)

Many clovers are bred from old standbys such as Will clover and California Ladino's...but most clovers you find today are much more productive.

I often mention Welter seed because they are a convenient and dependable source for most of my foodplot seeds, but many of these clovers are also available at your local ag supply...you just have to know what to ask for.

This year several of us will be planting a blend of clovers and grazing alfalfa purchased thru Welters.

Welters will sell you a pound or a truck load...just tell them how much you need, verus prepackaged amounts that may be too much or not enough.

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52)

Jumbo Ladino White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=51)

Grazer Brand Alfalfa (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=18)

They pay 1/2 the shipping on legumes and most is already inoculated, however for 4 bucks...I add fresh Clover Inoculate (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208)

This seed mix was $3.65 a pound and contains NO cheap annual or red clovers.

There are many other commercial mixes some of which I have planted in the past with no better or worse results.

I decided it might be interesting to plant these popular mixes side by side on each of my farms (thus comparing different areas/different deer) to see how each performs and compare costs to effectiveness.

I ordered DURANA Clover (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Produ ct_Code=CLOV-DURANA-05&amp;Category_Code=CLOV-DURANA)

Imperial Whitetail Clover (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Produ ct_Code=IMP-CLOVER-04&amp;Category_Code=WT-CLOVER)

Biologic Clover PLUS (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Produ ct_Code=BIO-CLOVERPLUS-02&amp;Category_Code=CLOVERPLUS)

Tecomate Monster Mix (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Produ ct_Code=TECO-102-08&amp;Category_Code=WG-TECO)

I'll mark each side by side plot some of which I'll monitor with trail cams and some I'll be able to observe this fall while hunting.

It's possible we may even be able to do some forage analysis to see if there is any substantial difference in protein levels.

It should prove interesting an give everyone some side by side comaprisons to help in you seed selection for future plots.

Stay tuned! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[risto2351]

Dbl.
I did some frost seeding a couple of weeks back. Should I of added fertilizer then ( I did not) or should I do it now?

Risto

[dbltree]

Dbl.
I did some frost seeding a couple of weeks back. Should I of added fertilizer then ( I did not) or should I do it now?

Risto





Better to put it on now since it won't be tilled in. It will take a while for the fertilizer to dissolve into the soil and the clover will be able to take advantage of it as it starts to grow later in the spring.

Without a soil test, 200-300#'s of 6-24-24 is a good one to get things going.

Just make sure it's dry enough so you don't tear up your new seeding, otherwise you'd be better off to wait.

[dbltree]

My clover seed is starting to trickle in...so I'll post the seed types of each as they arrive.

Biologic New Zealand Clover Plus came today and contains the following:

15.45% Border Balansa Clover (annual)
14.25% Tigri Berseem Clover (annual)
13.10% Rivendel White Clover
7.86% Kenland Red Clover (lasts approx. 2 years)
5.15% 6 point Chicory
4.50% Timaru 2 Chicory
3.85% Waimak White Clover
3.35% Temuka White Clover
31.92% Inert Matter (coating material)

Border Balansa Annual Clover
Origin and Breeding
Was bred by SGA and is a very prolific annual clover suitable for mixed and difficult soil types. Border is quick maturing (105 days to 50% flowering) and is suitable for grazing or single cut forage production. It has highly perfumed white flowers.

Berseem clover is an annual clover that is very inexpensive seed available from a source such as Welters.

Berseem Clover (http://overton.tamu.edu/clover/cool/berseem.htm)

Rivendel small leaf white clover: (S) New release from DLF seeds small leaf with high stolon density. Selected for persistance under close grazing situations.

Kenland Red Clover: Kenland red clover was released several years ago. It has good resistance to southern anthracnose, which is especially destructive to red clover stands in the southern Corn Belt. It has superior yielding ability over most other varieties and has a longer life than common red clover. It reportedly has more resistance to crown and root rots than seed originating from the northern United States, last about 2 years.


Seed source (http://www.cooperseeds.com/catalog/kenland-red-clover-p15.html)

Compare to Freedom Red Clover (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr178/agr178.htm)

WRIGHTSON SEEDS (http://www.wrightson.net.au/default.asp?V_DOC_ID=756&amp;function=LISTALL&amp;companyi d=3) has some excellent white clovers such as KopuII, Osceola and Tahora. (WRIGHTSON SEEDS is a NZ seed source where you will find many familier items such as Puna Chicory, Kopu 2 clover, Appin Turnips etc.)

I find it interesting that barely 30% of the Biologic mix contains perennial clovers while the rest is very inexpensive annual or 2 year clovers and "inert matter" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

This mix was very expensive at $10 a pound! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

In searching out information I've found that seed companies like Barenburg (http://www.barenbrug.com/barusa/EN/legumes.php) are pretty much world wide with divisions in nearly every country.


They have long ago taken advantage of each others technology by combining efforts...so "New Zealand" seed is hardly something new and different.

I also found that most clovers that some would have you believe were developed specifically for deer in NZ were bred for other characteristics for grazing all types of dairy cattle and sheep.

It's all great seed but consider if you really want to pay $5-7 a pound for cheap annual clovers that normally costs 2 bucks a pound or purchase exactly what you want...premium white clover that will last for years with good management.

[dbltree]

Tecomate Monster Mix also arrived today with the following seedlist:

24.98% Barblanca White Clover
19.63% Forage Feast Chicory
16.48% Tripoli White Clover
9.88 % Manna Berseem Clover
9.84 % Mammoth Red Clover
18.54% Coating Material

BARBLANCA Barenburg USA (http://www.barenbrug.com/barusa/EN/legumes.php?page=product&segmentid=273&tabblad=productoverzicht&productid=791&product=Barblanca)
New medium leaved variety with excellent persistency making it very suitable for intensive grazing systems. Its aggressive growth habit enables the variety to compete with rye grass. Good early spring growth and some winter growth.

Forage Feast Chicory Barenbrug Forage Chicory Varieties (http://www.barusa.com/Products_Forage/Chicory.htm)

This variety has been bred in France after screening in the USA. It has better resistance to bolting than other varieties. Forage Feast is highly palatable to livestock and wild game. Less bolting also means more leaves and higher energy.

Tripoli Barenbrug Forage White Clover Varieties (http://www.barusa.com/Products_Forage/White%20Clover.htm) note the comparison to Alice clover.

Tripoli is a very unique white clover. It is one of the very few varieties that has persisted through some of the worst summers in the South. Stands of Tripoli survived both extreme summers of ’97 and ’98 at numerous locations in Texas and Louisiana. The genetics of this variety go back to the deserts of North Africa, which explains its tolerance to hot and dry summers.

Berseem clover: annual clover BERSEEM CLOVER (http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.EXE/show_crop_6)

The Dos And Don'ts Of Berseem Clover (http://hayandforage.com/mag/farming_dos_donts_berseem/)

Mammoth Red Clover:They usually produce one hay crop plus an aftermath growth. Mammoth red clover has yielded from 15 to 40 percent less hay in tests throughout the lower Corn Belt. Mammoth red clover is not recommended for use in Missouri; its best performance is in areas with short growing seasons such as Canada. Biennial clover in most cases.

Red Clover (http://extension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/crops/g04638.htm)


More red clover info (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/html/em/em8701/)


Based on the seed mix I like this one

Pretty is as pretty does but unlike the mix in my previous post this mix contains more of what your looking for....a high % of top quality white clovers and chicory.

Mammoth red clover is IMO a poor choice but this mix does not contain an excessive amount of either red or berseem clover.

The price is reasonable if your looking for a ready to plant mix at a around $4.20 plus shipping a pound.

[huntdoc]

Maybe a dumb question but figure if I ask publicly then I save someone else the trouble /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I have rye growing in my clover that was put in as a cover crop last fall for a new no-till plot. Should I kill the rye ASAP to prevent competition? Is its usefulness done? Other than the rye, my main concern in my plots is broadleaf weeds so this directs my next herbicide step.

[bjkpharmd]

If you clip it as soon as it starts to head out it will kill it and the clipping will help on the weeds. If you have a weed wiper you can kill it at a low level before heading out without mowing.

[nannyslayer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe a dumb question but figure if I ask publicly then I save someone else the trouble.

I have rye growing in my clover that was put in as a cover crop last fall for a new no-till plot. Should I kill the rye ASAP to prevent competition? Is its usefulness done? Other than the rye, my main concern in my plots is broadleaf weeds so this directs my next herbicide step. </div></div>

You can also kill the rye with Select Max or Assure. 2-4-D B works on broadleafs in clover, but with my experience with it, it is marginal on how it will kill the broadleafs.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe a dumb question but figure if I ask publicly then I save someone else the trouble

I have rye growing in my clover that was put in as a cover crop last fall for a new no-till plot. Should I kill the rye ASAP to prevent competition? Is its usefulness done? Other than the rye, my main concern in my plots is broadleaf weeds so this directs my next herbicide step. </div></div>

You can also kill the rye with Select Max or Assure. 2-4-D B works on broadleafs in clover, but with my experience with it, it is marginal on how it will kill the broadleafs. </div></div>

So far many of us have found that rye is not as competitive with clover as you might think. Clipping or spraying can be done but I have found no problems just leaving it mature and then clipping as the clover needs it.

Either way, no hurry at the moment as it is still acting to suppress weeds and it is not competing (yet) with your new clover seedlings. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One more question. I have a very hard to get to area only accessible by ATV.
I have no mower at this time. Would clover be the ticket?
I am assuming this will need to be planted at a later date? I want a perennial there so hopefully all I will have to do is spray the weeds and watch it grow.
</div></div>

In a situation like that, I would spray it this fall (mow it or weedwhack it if you can)and then frost seed clover next winter.

Plant only white clovers that will be short and easy to maintain by spraying as needed with a backpack sprayer.

You can hand spread lime pellets and fertilizer in the fall or winter.

This is the frost seeded clover at the begining of this thread on April 4th.

The deer have been hammering it and the extreme cold burned it a little as well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-04yearoldclover.jpg

This is the clover I summer seeded last August.:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallseedinginApril.jpg

It's sweet and tender and the deer are trying to graze it to the ground right now. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[NWBuck]

Hey dbltree,

Looking good /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

We're looking to establish a couple of plots on a new piece this spring, and I've got a couple of "newbie" questions for you.

Is the Arrest product sold by the Whitetail Institute essentially the same as Poast? If so, it looks like Poast would be a much more cost effective grass control. Second, will Poast kill chicory if it is blended in with the clover? Thanks.

NWBuck

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the Arrest product sold by the Whitetail Institute essentially the same as Poast? If so, it looks like Poast would be a much more cost effective grass control. Second, will Poast kill chicory if it is blended in with the clover?

NWBuck </div></div>

Yes..Arrest contains the exact same active ingredient ( sethoxydim ) as Poast.

Poast and Poast Plus contain the same ingredient but Poast is 18% and Poast Plus is 13%.

Select or Trigger ( clethodim ) is only labeled for clover in the NW (Oregon and Washington) but is actually supposed to be safer on alflafa and clover. Those that have tried it say it is better and available in gallon sizes.

The cost per acre is the same as Poast and Select 2 EC, Select Max or generic version Arrow will prove far more effective then Poast.

Poast and Select are grass herbicides, so they safe for your chicory...2-4DB is not safe for chicory since it is a broadleaf herbicide.


You should be able to find Poast Plus or Select at your local ag supply but if not here is an On line source (http://keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=index&amp;cPath=10&amp;zenid=b906480fd eeb50a7cd3505e24c2ccfb6)

You can compare almost all popular herbicide labels in the Herbicide thread (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=174408&fpart=1) at the top of this forum.

If any are missing let me know and I'll add them...then you can compare apples to apples or sethoxydim to sethoxydim

[NWBuck]

Thanks dbltree...you are a wealth of valuable information for the weekend warrior farmer wannabe's such as myself.

Final question...well maybe. We are thinking of a blend of a white and ladino clover with chicory. Is there a product available safe for grass control in such a plot? Other than a mower that is /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Thanks again.

NWBuck

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are thinking of a blend of a white and ladino clover with chicory. Is there a product available safe for grass control in such a plot? </div></div>

Yes...all the grass herbicides mentioned will be safe to use on white and red clover as well as chicory.

Select, Arrow, Poast, or Hi-Yield grass killer (note do not use Hi-Yield grass AND weed killer!) will all be safe for your blend of clovers and chicory.

Poast has been highly advertised but Select has proven more effective at the samerate per acre /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

RECURRING QUESTIONS ON GRASS CONTROL IN FORAGE PLOTS (http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/products/herbicides/questions.html)

BUTYRAC 200 BROADLEAF HERBICIDE or Slay herbicide you CANNOT use.

[StrmChzr]

i've had better success planting clover in the fall compared to spring plantings in s.e. kansas. my spring clover plantings usually fall victim to grass competition early ~ i don't use herbicide which might really make a difference helping the clover get established.

imo, the best tip for planting clover is to plant winter rye as a nurse crop. winter rye (not rye grass) has alleopathic effects when planted w/ clover. basically, this means the rye provides natural "weed control" while the clover has a chance to establish. i let the rye grow thru the spring (turkeys love it) instead of mowing. by mid july, the rye is dead and there's a very clean stand of clover.

early april winter rye/ladino clover plot
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3172/aprilgreenery3wi.jpg

june winter rye/ladino clover plot
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5568/ltrye36gq.jpg

july plot
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5672/juneclover34of.jpg

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i've had better success planting clover in the fall compared to spring plantings in s.e. kansas. my spring clover plantings usually fall victim to grass competition early ~ i don't use herbicide which might really make a difference helping the clover get established.
</div></div>

I've always preferred late summer/early fall seedings myself.

Yours looks fantastic! I think pharmer has done exactly the same thing with rye with also great results.

Thanks for sharing the pics and info /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[TimberSpirit]

That looks to work very well. What month are you planting Sep?

[StrmChzr]

i try to prep and plant before labor day. i don't step foot back in the plot after planting. i want the plot to "quiet down" for the 6-8 weeks preceding the rut.

it worked last year. stuck a nice 10 pointer in early november.

[dbltree]

I recieved my IWC the other day...seed tag reads:

32.46% Wina Brand Berseem Clover
15.92% Advantage Ladino Clover
8.66% Insight Ladino Clover
8.62% Wina Brand Ladino Clover
33.80% Seed Coating

4#'s at $29.99 plus shipping is nearly $8.00 a pound.

I've planted IWC several times over the years and it always does well but for me personally it goes aginst the grain that nearly 70% of this mix is either cheap annual Berseem clover or seed coating /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

32.46% Berseem Clover!!! Berseem is great BUT...it is an annual clover and it is a very inexpensive clover...so YOU be the judge! Why on earth would anyone want to pay an exorbitant price for a bag of clover that contains very little of what you really want...white clover... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

If it was 90% ladino clover I'd be ok with it. Berseem clover cannot be frost seeded so if your planning that route...your throwing away half the seed in the bag.

I have seen some CP tests on IWC but it didn't test any higher then other ladino clovers.

Companies such as WI, Biologic and others rely on the fact that MOST landonwers are not knowledgeable enough about the seed they are buying to know one seed from another...they know that the pretty pictures on the bag will sell their product at a more then premium price..... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I'm kind of looking forward to planting all these mixes in side by side plots and see what the heck happens. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[corygnc1]

Would this be a good mix?
1/3 Kopu II White Clover
1/3 Jumbo Ladino White Clover
1/3 Berseen Clover

At 10 pounds per acre?

And then use oats as a cover crop?

How do you plant the oats? In the clover mix or before or after? Do you have to have to pack the oats in?

Thanks everyone!

[NWBuck]

I just ordered today, and here's the mix:

12 lbs. each of: ladino clover, Alice white clover and Oasis forage chicory. Blended together, this will go on a couple of plots totalling about 3-4 acres. Obviously, we'll need a Poast application to help with grass control post emergence.

NWBuck

[nannyslayer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just ordered today, and here's the mix:

12 lbs. each of: ladino clover, Alice white clover and Oasis forage chicory. Blended together, this will go on a couple of plots totalling about 3-4 acres. Obviously, we'll need a Poast application to help with grass control post emergence.

NWBuck </div></div>

Just out of couriosity, why does everyone like the Poast herbicide? Not trying to step on anyones toes or make anyone mad, I just see that herbicide brought up alot in this forum for legumes.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would this be a good mix?
1/3 Kopu II White Clover
1/3 Jumbo Ladino White Clover
1/3 Berseen Clover

At 10 pounds per acre?

And then use oats as a cover crop?

How do you plant the oats? In the clover mix or before or after? Do you have to have to pack the oats in?

Thanks everyone! </div></div>

That should be a good mix just remember the berseem is an annual but it will grow fast and give some good first year forage.

You don't have to plant with oats as you can use herbicide or clipping when needed but oats will provide some spring feed and hold down weeds.

You either have to clip it or spray it later as it may get to heavy and actually be to much competition for the seedlings. (baling it works great if you have a farmer who needs some hay!)

I till the ground, broadcast the oats, cultipack them to cover the seed.

Then broadcast the clover seed and re-pack the clover seed into the now firm surface.

Remember it's critical not to bury clover or alfalfa seed while oats and other grains should be a little deeper.

Check the cereal grain thread (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148055&fpart=1) to see how I plant grains.

If you don't have a packer, a lawn roller or running an ATV back n forth over it until covered will work.

Check back earlier in this thread to see how to prepare for and sow clover.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just out of couriosity, why does everyone like the Poast herbicide? Not trying to step on anyones toes or make anyone mad, I just see that herbicide brought up alot in this forum for legumes. </div></div>

I think perhaps ( sethoxydim ) Poast has just been advertised and marketed to plotters more then Select or Arrow ( clethodim ).

Costs vary and generics are cheaper but Poast at .5, 1.0, 1.5 pints per acre runs $4.0, $8.20, $12.50 an acre.

Select 2EC at 4 oz, 6 oz, 8oz runs $5. $8.75 and $11.60 per acre.

Hopefully we can educate plotters via this forum on the benefits of using Select over Poast for grass control in many broadleaf plantings.

[corygnc]

Would now with the wet spring be a good time to get the clover and oats in?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would now with the wet spring be a good time to get the clover and oats in? </div></div>

Spring is a good time...but don't try and work wet ground! Let it dry out a before you plant.

I've got plenty to plant myself but only when/if it dries out.

Then of course we have to hope it doesn't turn out to be a dry summer as they have been predicting... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[SWBUCKHNTR]

So i have found the place to get my questions answered /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif .

I am planting a few areas into clover, brassica, and turnup mixes I am going to be seeding quite a few areas with a no-till drill. The areas I am seeding into are pasture right now. I think it would be easiest to seed into the pasture and them turn around and spray the grasses after seeding. My reason for thinking this is because the no-till drill was made especially for those conditions. Is this a good way or does anybody have a better idea. The products I am using are Antler kings clover mix this spring and then planting my other plots this fall.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So i have found the place to get my questions answered :).
I am planting a few areas into clover, brassica, and turnup mixes I am going to be seeding quite a few areas with a no-till drill. The areas I am seeding into are pasture right now. I think it would be easiest to seed into the pasture and them turn around and spray the grasses after seeding. My reason for thinking this is because the no-till drill was made especially for those conditions. Is this a good way or does anybody have a better idea. The products I am using are Antler kings clover mix this spring and then planting my other plots this fall. </div></div>

No-till drills can work great my only thought for clover or brassicas would be to run a cultipacker behind it...unless it has packer wheels, in which case you should be good to go.

You can spray after planting as the coulters may tear up the sod depending on how "aggressive" they are.

[SWBUCKHNTR]

It is suppose to have a weel that rolls behind and packs it. I havent seen it yet it is coming on the truck tomorrow so I am getting excited. Thanks

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is suppose to have a wheel that rolls behind and packs it. I havent seen it yet it is coming on the truck tomorrow so I am getting excited. Thanks </div></div>

Cool! Let us know how it works and post some pics of your seeding whe it gets going. Should be "packer wheels" behind the coulter on each row.

I recieved my Durana clover also...runs about $7 a pound.

Supposed to be very drought resistant and long lived.

Durana White Clover (http://www.buckmasters.com/bm/Resources/PenningtonFoodPlots/tabid/175/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/370/The-Whole-Truth-About-Durana-White-Clover.aspx)

Perennial Powerhouse (http://www.progressivefarmer.com/farmer/rs/wildlife/1003_article4.html)

[loneranger]

Where did you purchase your Durana clover?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where did you purchase your Durana clover? </div></div>

I used Seedland.com (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Categ ory_Code=CLOV-DURANA) to purchase all the clover mixes including Durana.

Everything else I purchased thru Welter seed (http://www.welterseed.com/)

[dbltree]

I planted all my clover plots last week along with a nurse crop of oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IWCseed.jpg

32.46% Wina Brand Berseem Clover
15.92% Advantage Ladino Clover
8.66% Insight Ladino Clover
8.62% Wina Brand Ladino Clover
33.80% Seed Coating

4#'s at $29.99 plus shipping is nearly $8.00 a pound

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TecomateMonsterMix.jpg

24.98% Barblanca White Clover
19.63% Forage Feast Chicory
16.48% Tripoli White Clover
9.88 % Manna Berseem Clover
9.84 % Mammoth Red Clover
18.54% Coating Material


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BiologicCloverPlus.jpg

Biologic New Zealand Clover Plus

15.45% Border Balansa Clover (annual)
14.25% Tigri Berseem Clover (annual)
13.10% Rivendel White Clover
7.86% Kenland Red Clover (lasts approx. 2 years)
5.15% 6 point Chicory
4.50% Timaru 2 Chicory
3.85% Waimak White Clover
3.35% Temuka White Clover
31.92% Inert Matter (coating material)

Border Balansa Annual Clover
Origin and Breeding
Was bred by SGA and is a very prolific annual clover suitable for mixed and difficult soil types. Border is quick maturing (105 days to 50% flowering) and is suitable for grazing or single cut forage production. It has highly perfumed white flowers.

Berseem clover is an annual clover that is very inexpensive seed available from a source such as Welters

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DuranaClover.jpg

Durana White Clover (http://www.gon.com/article.php?id=120&cid=93)

Seed Source (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Categ ory_Code=CLOV-DURANA)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Inoculant.jpg

I made up my own mix of the following clover and alfalfa from Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx)

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52)

Jumbo Ladino White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=51)

Grazer Brand Alfalfa (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=18)

They pay 1/2 the shipping on legumes and most is already inoculated, however for 4 bucks...I add fresh Clover Inoculate (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208)

This seed mix was $3.65 a pound and contains NO cheap annual or red clovers.

All of the seed was pre-inoculated but I added fresh.

Mix a very small amount of water to just moisten the seed and stir in the inoculant which looks like peat.

We tilled several times and broadcast about 2 bushel per acre of oats, then ran the cultipacker over it.

Before broadcasting the clover seed it looked like this:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cultipackedoncereadyforclover.jpg

I then broadcasted the clover seed onto the firmly packed soil surface and re-packed it to cover it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cultipacker-2.jpg

A cultipacker, lawn roller or ATV tires are very important when planting clover...press it in...don't drag it or you will bury it.

I tilled in fertilizer...ph was ok.

Now for some warm spring rains /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Central Iowa]

Paul, Looks good! On your clover, alfalfa mix what ratio did you use and how much did you use per acre?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> On your clover, alfalfa mix what ratio did you use and how much did you use per acre? </div></div>

I mixed a 1/4 each so the mix is 3/4 clover and 1/4 Grazer alfalfa.

Stand alone rates call for 2-4# of clover but 15-18# of alfalfa so I split the diff. and used 8# per acre of the mix.

One could go heavier with alfalfa or mix any combination but I didn't want the alfalfa to dominate in this case.

I hope others will post pics and progress of thier own mixes including commercial blends for comparison.

I've planted these clovers but just haven't added alfalfa yet...stay tuned! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntdoc]

Squeezed a quick trip to woods after work and between storms to look for shrooms. My clover plot is looking good and starting to grow well. I noticed a few spots with some yellow colored leaves in the clover. I had added some pelletized lime a few weeks ago. If it were heavy in spots would that cause the yellow?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Squeezed a quick trip to woods after work and between storms to look for shrooms. My clover plot is looking good and starting to grow well. I noticed a few spots with some yellow colored leaves in the clover. I had added some pelletized lime a few weeks ago. If it were heavy in spots would that cause the yellow? </div></div>

I doubt it's from the lime...at least I've never known it to cause a problem on growing plants.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Use lime at the recommended rate. Lime will work best if applied before planting and incorporated, but don't think all is lost and not use it if you waited too long. If your soil pH is highly acidic, applying lime at any time and in any manner is better than not using it at all. </div></div>

The lime will dissolve slowly so if you just put it on recently it wouldn't even have time to cause a problem if to heavy.(and that would have to be an extreme amount)

[dbltree]

I was going to take a pic of each type of clover as it came up...but they all came up very quickly and each brand/mix looked exactly like the other after a week.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cloverseedlings.jpg

That pic was nearly 10 days ago so it should be going to town after all the rain /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

This is some Alice white clover planted late last summer, after it's been froze off and re-growing a few weeks ago.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AliceWhiteClover.jpg

You can almost always expect the most growth the second year but clover is generally not long lived like alfalfa...3-5 years depending on the care you give it.

[dbltree]

This is my Alice white clover going into it's second year planted on somewhat poor clay soils.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/2ndyearAlice.jpg

This is Alice white clover planted last summer. Even though I got a great kill via Roundup...grasses still come back:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LastsummerAliceclover.jpg

Clipping will take care of some of the weeds but eventually I think I'll try spraying with Select to kill the grasses.

This is a shot of some of this springs new clover and oats. At this point I can see no difference in germination or growth rates of any of the various clover mixes I planted.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oatsnclover.jpg


I wanted to include a pic of Ghosts clover because it is one of the finest clover plots I've ever seen.

It's an example of what clover can look like when PH and fertility requirements have been met by proper soil testing and planting on moist fertile soil.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3085/8372007clover2.JPG

Soil type is important in deciding bewteen clover an alfalfa as clover prefers more moist less well drained soil.

A little research will also tell you which varieties of white clovers can survive drought on poor soils as well.

Alice and Durana were selected for those qualities for example.

Now is the time to keep an eye on your clover and keep it clipped if it starts to blossom and get stemmy.

It's at this point that white clovers are much more manageable then taller heavier red clovers.

[huntdoc]

One of my plots actually exceeded expectation and grew some nice looking clover. Can't tell that anything has touched it though. When do they utilize it most? Corn and beans are just emerging in our area.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of my plots actually exceeded expectation and grew some nice looking clover. Can't tell that anything has touched it though. When do they utilize it most? Corn and beans are just emerging in our area. </div></div>

Mine is full of beds and the tops are nipped off but they also have plenty to choose from right now so usage is not "intense".

This is a last summer Alice seeding with plenty of grass coming up also even though I killed it with Roundup last summer.

I clipped it after this pic and eventually may spray with Select grass herbicide.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AliceClover.jpg

This is the Biologic clover/chicory mix last week. The chicory shows up most:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Biologiccloverchicory.jpg

This is Tecomate which also shows plenty of chicory growth. The clover is very tiny and difficult to see in the pics.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tecomatechicoryclover.jpg

This is the clover mix I put together from Welters (contents of which are listed earlier in this thread)

I'm surprised at how much larger the clover seedlings are. All were planted the same day and within yards of each other.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WelterClovermix.jpg

No explanation why but it's doing the best at this point:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weltermix2.jpg

All of these test plots are on what I consider poor clay soils so none are likley to produce fantastic results.

It is a good test however to compare varieties under less then favorable conditions.

[goatman]

Do you get better results with Select? I sprayed the max rate with Poast Plus and didn't kill any grasses. I'm getting ready to clip it and try again in a few days. I sprayed back when the grasses were 6". Also do you see much grazing on the chicory? The only time I see them eating it is after a hard frost.

[dbltree]

Do you get better results with Select? I sprayed the max rate with Poast Plus and didn't kill any grasses. I'm getting ready to clip it and try again in a few days. I sprayed back when the grasses were 6". Also do you see much grazing on the chicory? The only time I see them eating it is after a hard frost.



I've heard more then a few comments that Poast Plus wasn't doing the job on grasses but just the opposite with Select.

If it was me...I'd be complaining to your field rep about the Poast and based on what I'm hearing I wouldn't reccomend it anymore.

[nannyslayer]

I've heard more then a few comments that Poast Plus wasn't doing the job on grasses but just the opposite with Select.

If it was me...I'd be complaining to your field rep about the Poast and based on what I'm hearing I wouldn't reccomend it anymore.




I was wondering when you would find that out.

[raven]

<span style="color: #FF0000">Select will kill the fire out of grasses and will not touch your clover if used at the recommended rates</span>. We use 10-12 oz/acre on most sites and the results are amazing.

You can mix this with 2-4 DB to get broadleaves as well. The DB WILL cause varying amounts of burn on the legumes but they bounce back great if growing conditions are decent.

The DB will get the bigger stuff if you put on 3 qt's/acre but you may not like the looks of your clover for a while after you spray....Just my 3 cents (inflation).

Best,
Rich

[dbltree]

Select will kill the fire out of grasses and will not touch your clover if used at the recommended rates. We use 10-12 oz/acre on most sites and the results are amazing. You can mix this with 2-4 DB to get broadleaves as well. The DB WILL cause varying amounts of burn on the legumes but they bounce back great if growing conditions are decent. The DB will get the bigger stuff if you put on 3 qt's/acre but you may not like the looks of your clover for a while after you spray....Just my 3 cents (inflation).

Best,
Rich







Thanks Rich! Check this link for the generic version which might save a few bucks: Arrow Label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld6DN002.pdf)


This is a source for Arrow but I you can buy Select and Arrow for less at local Ag supply outlets (elevator, seed fertilizer suppliers)

ARROW GRASS HERBICIDE (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=114)

[locust]

what clip height do you guys usually mow your clover at? I only have access to a garden tractor and at the tallest setting it mulches down the clover pretty good so I was wondering if clipping too low was a concern?

[Central Iowa]

I am not an expert, but from what I have seen what you have set a little lower will get the job done.

[loneranger]

This is a good question. I have to use a weed whip. What,,is,, the optimum height to keep your clover plot?

[Central Iowa]

Cut back to 4 to 6" on existing. Let new get to 6" and then cut back to 3" Using a lawn mower or weed eater you will have to experiment a little to see what gives you the best results.

[Ghost]

The key to cutting clover is your timing which I don't see mentioned.

This time of year, be careful when you mow. If it is very dry and stressed, mowing is not a great idea. Try to plan on mowing right before or right after a forecasted rain for best results.

I've mowed mine four times this year and it needs it again now.
I don't plan on mowing after August 1st so there is a thick weedless stand going into the Fall. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[ironwood]

I mowed mine this afternoon just ahead of the monsoon. Your post makes me feel good. If it had not rained your post would have made me sick.

Thanks Ghost

[koba]

I went last year (mowed) on July 31, right before a big RAIN, and then did my last spray also when the weeds shoot's were cut OPEN !!

[risto2351]

I planted my clover at the end of May.
I am very lucky that this rain came when it did otherwise I would be reseeding it come fall. I will hopefully post some pictures next week.

[risto2351]

Question on the clover.
If I spray it for grasses with Poast I assume it will kill my Oasis Chicory?

[risto2351]

I have been reading through the posts.
Has anyone else used winter rye with their clover?
I am planning on planting clover with chicory and saw one post where they used winter rye.
How did it turn out for you? Did you also plant chicory.
Thanks for the help.

[dbltree]

You can use rye, it works far better then wheat. Oats also work well as they will kill out over the winter.

Some folks just leave it mature the next spring and clip it all when it's time to clip the clover for the first time.



Question on the clover.
If I spray it for grasses with Poast I assume it will kill my Oasis Chicory?





No it won't kill chicory...only grasses, but I suggest Select over Poast.....

[huntdoc]

I did it and wish I had found Doubletree first because I planted it too thick and then couldn't get it mowed due to some other problems. Still looks pretty good for the most part but I think the rye ended up being more bedding and for birds than a food source. Looks like straw in my clover now.

[dbltree]

If you look back in this thread...I planted several different types (brands) of clover this spring...but then wasn't able to maintain them all summer.

I was finally able to mow the weeds and look them over...here's what NOT to do...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeedStrips.jpg

Ragweed as high as the tractor!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeedCrop.jpg

I mowed it down...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Windrowofweeds.jpg

but waiting this long creates heavy windrows of weeds/grass which can smother clover seedlings.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Windrowedweeds.jpg

Just a little lesson on why "timely" clipping of new spring seedings is important.

I'm not able to tell you how the clovers compared under ideal conditions with the best of care...but rather the opposite.

Under worst conditions with no care all summer, the Imperial, Tecomate and Mossy Oak brands were almost complete failures.

Those three looked like this...in the very best spot I could find...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IWCfirstsummer.jpg

The Duranna and the Alice/Kopu 2 mix from Welter Seed did very well all things considering

Before mowing the Duranna looked like this:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DuranaClover1.jpg

and after mowing:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DurranaCloverfirstsummer.jpg

The Welter Mix looked very good also...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weltermixfirstsummer.jpg

I was unable to locate any Grazer Alfalfa but the 3 clovers in the Welter mix, were doing very well despite the heavy weed canopy.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AliceWhiteCloverSept.jpg

This is the Alice White clover I planted last August...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OneyearAliceClover.jpg

Now you see why I prefer late summer seedings...to avoid the weed problems...

This patch was being grazed hard...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NippedClover.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nippedhard.jpg

This is 2 year old Alice clover...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/2yrAliceWhiteClover.jpg

White clover is awesome forage and works great in food plots and by using the frost seeding method one can plant it with virtually no equipment other then a sprayer and a hand seeder.

I have small plots planted over a period of three years so that as each plot starts to thin I can take advantage of the nitrogen and plant brassicas.

Then I can rotate back to clover if I choose. Something to keep in mind...make use of Mother Natures "gifts" of free fertilizer!

[dbltree]

Here's a couple pictures of Alice White Clover in November because IMO it's not the best draw for late fall early winter hunting.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AliceWhiteclover-1.jpg

I have several plots right next to my alfalfa, small plots of rye/oats and plenty of corn and soybeans. They eat the clover but look at this runway going right thru the clover to the alfalfa it's planted next too.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Runwaythruclover.jpg

I really like clover for an early spring high protien food source and if it's the only "green" source of feed on your place in the fall, they will hit it hard.

I just wanted to show a comparison and other things to consider when deciding what plots to plant. Clover is much easier to plant and manage then alfalfa and can last 3-5 years compared to fall grains that need to be planted each fall. It's a great option for some but perhaps not the best for...all.

Earlier in this thread I posted comparisons for "big name" clovers and I found under difficult conditions that Durana and Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264) from Welter Seed Co. (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx) performed the best for me. I haven't noticed any difference in usage except the obvious...if the clover is lush and growing well...deer are going to be more attracted to it.

Planted properly they will all do well and attract whitetails and longbeards! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Weed control is a long ways off but for those that are just planting clover for the first time...it's helpful to have some information on weed control and maintaining your clover plot before spring rolls around.

I think first choice for grass control in clover and alfalfa is Select EC (http://www.agrisolutionsinfo.com/Docs/Select.pdf)

followed by Poast Plus (http://www.greenbook.net/Docs/Label/L27011.pdf)

Some people have been less then satisfied with Poast Plus but so far I have heard few complaints about Select other then the price! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

List of herbicides for alfalfa and clover: Herbicides for Clover and Alfalfa (http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/index.html#http://www.colostate.edu/depts/CoopExt/TRA/SeedProduction/AlfClovherbicide.html)

Broadleaf control requires 2-4DB (NOT 2-4D!!)so use something like Butyrac 200 (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4JG000.pdf) Usually mowing/clipping will take care of broadleaves but it won't do the trick for grasses.

You can find many of these on Ebay (http://stores.ebay.com/Keystone-Pest-Solutions) but all should be available at your local ag supply dealer.

Looking back in this thread you can see the problem with waiting to long to mow...if you use a rotary type cutter (brush hog) you'll end up windrowing the clover which can cause some suffocating.

Mow frequently and raise the mower to clip 6-8 inches high will help. Using flail type mowers (http://www.tiger-mowers.com/products/flail/default.asp) will take care of that problem but they are pretty pricey if you already have an old mower handy and only a small plot to maintain.

JD Flail Mower (http://www.deere.com/servlet/com.deere.u90785.productcatalog.view.servlets.Prod CatProduct?tM=FR&pNbr=0370XP)

[dbltree]

I recently had a great set of questions regarding planting spring clover so I thought I would re-post them here:

1.) For spring clover, what's the rule of thumb for when to plant in central Iowa and when should lime and fertilizer be applied in relation to the seed itself?

Plant as early as you can work the ground and not work it wet. You can put lime on right now (as soon as you do a soil test and confirm PH)
Fertilizer can be put on as you do the finish tilling.

2.) Any rule of thumb for when to apply the first herbicide application?

You have several options with clover...

You can plant oats to control weeds at first and clip the oats before they get to heavy.

Clip the weed growth in the new clover (clip it above the clover at first)

Poast Plus or Select will control grasses only and may not be needed the first year. You can even kill the oats with herbicide but herbicide is expensive and I have never ever used it in the seeding year, however I normally seed in late summer to minimize weed problems.

3.) Any rule of thumb for when to do the first mowing? I plan to mow often because we already maintain these areas regularly by mowing.

I clip/mow 2-3 times as year as needed and depending on weed/grass problems. White clover doesn't get real tall compared to red clover or alfalfa and when it starts flowering it's not going to get much taller.

Just monitor it use some common sense/good judgment on the mowing.

4.) Will I need to refertilize during the growing season? If so, what type of fertilizer and how much?

If you fertilize at seeding per soil test you really shouldn't need any more until the following spring or late fall.

200-300#'s of 6-24-24 will most likely keep your clover lush and healthy every year. Remember your not harvesting the clover and removing 3-5 tons per acre as with alfalfa so once soil fertility has been achieved it's pretty easy to maintain.

5.) Is it a good idea to overseed a clover plot in late winter, much like frost seeding except you're doing it to an already existing stand of clover to thicken it up? Good idea or waste of money?

If you start a good seeding then adding more seed is pretty much a waste of time and money. If your seeding doesn't turn out so well due to poor weather such as drought, then frost seeding won't hurt a thing.

A good clover stand should last 3-5 years with good weed control and fertility. At that point I prefer to till the clover under and plant brassicas to utilize the nitrogen produced by the clover. Tyring to keep it going by frost seeding might work but it's something I haven't tried. I believe in rotating crops and breaking the disease/bug cycle.

6.) Should I add anything to the mix outside of white clovers? I guess I'm wondering if there's a companion crop that might help with early weed control and allow the clover to come up behind it. I was considering using Berseem for this but perhaps there's something better, keeping the spring planting time in mind.

Oats is the most common nurse crop and berseem can be used along with oats. Imperial Clover seed mixes contain a heavy mix of berseem because it comes on thick and heavy the first year. Berseem is an annual and dies out after the first year so it depends on the value to cost ratio compared to oats.

7.) And kind of related to the last question, do you think there's a big advantage to mixing various clovers for diversity such as Alice with Jumbo with Kopu, etc. or do you think it's just as wise to pick one winner and stick with it?

I have done both and both have done very well. Half the fun for me is mixing my own "concoctions" and see what happens. Some of my test plots will be second year in 2008 and I hope to have better comparisons. Alice...straight up or in a mix..6 a one 1/2 dozen of the other as they say... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
Different varieties have different attributes and one may out perform another under different conditions which makes a mix less likely to fail. Alice has never failed for me under any and all types of growing conditions and deer love it...so take it from there.

Having said all that....I still prefer late summer clover and alfalfa seedings.

Add oats for an early fall foodplot...no weeds...no herbicide...no wet springs to fight...plenty of time to get lime on...no muss...no fuss...but that's just me... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[Blaster]

dbltree,

I had to re-seed late fall due to the floods. The clover only got about 1-2in tall. Will this make it though this winter. I was thinking of frost seeding over some of it to make sure it was full this spring.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dbltree,

I had to re-seed late fall due to the floods. The clover only got about 1-2in tall. Will this make it though this winter. I was thinking of frost seeding over some of it to make sure it was full this spring. </div></div>

It should be fine but if you only have an acre or two then frost seeding $20 worth of clover would be cheap "insurance" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

We have been discussing the attributes of various clover seed and seed mixes on another thread so I thought I would repost this here.

My sole purpose here is give knowledge and help fellow "food plotters" avoid failure...something I have done plenty of in my lifetime... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

Before you order seed ask on this forum and learn more about what is in a "bag of seed". There will be many vendors at the Iowa Deer Classic all with many types of quality seed but I urge you to know exactly what you are buying. Talk to the vendors for specific seed type that will work in your situation. Most will be very helpful...IF...you know what to ask.

These are major brands that I planted and reading back thru this thread may help you decide which clover or clover chicory mix to plant. Based soley on seed type/content I liked the Tecomate commercial mix best but based on performance I prefered the Alice brand clover in my personal planting.

Cut and paste the seed contents and save for reference. If you try or have tried any of these please share your results with us. It's all quality seed...I'm just from the old sod and try to save a buck will getting more "bang" for it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IWCseed.jpg

Imperial Whitetail Clover

32.46% Wina Brand Berseem Clover
15.92% Advantage Ladino Clover
8.66% Insight Ladino Clover
8.62% Wina Brand Ladino Clover
33.80% Seed Coating

4#'s at $29.99 plus shipping is nearly $8.00 a pound or $60 per acre for seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TecomateMonsterMix.jpg

Tecomate Monster Mix

24.98% Barblanca White Clover
19.63% Forage Feast Chicory
16.48% Tripoli White Clover
9.88 % Manna Berseem Clover
9.84 % Mammoth Red Clover
18.54% Coating Material

$29.99 for 4.5#'s is 6.45 a pound (1/2 acre)$60.00 per acre for seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BiologicCloverPlus.jpg

Biologic New Zealand Clover Plus

15.45% Border Balansa Clover (annual)
14.25% Tigri Berseem Clover (annual)
13.10% Rivendel White Clover
7.86% Kenland Red Clover (lasts approx. 2 years)
5.15% 6 point Chicory
4.50% Timaru 2 Chicory
3.85% Waimak White Clover
3.35% Temuka White Clover
31.92% Inert Matter (coating material)

$19.99 for 2#'s $10 a pound (they say use (9#'s per acre)$90 per acre for seed.

Border Balansa Annual Clover
Origin and Breeding
Was bred by SGA and is a very prolific annual clover suitable for mixed and difficult soil types. Border is quick maturing (105 days to 50% flowering) and is suitable for grazing or single cut forage production. It has highly perfumed white flowers.

Berseem clover is an annual clover that is very inexpensive seed available from a source such as Welters

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DuranaClover.jpg

Durana White Clover (http://www.buckmasters.com/bm/Resources/PenningtonFoodPlots/tabid/175/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/370/The-Whole-Truth-About-Durana-White-Clover.aspx)

Seed Source (http://www.seedland.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&amp;Store_Code=Seedland&amp;Categ ory_Code=CLOV-DURANA)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Inoculant.jpg

I made up my own mix of the following clover and alfalfa from Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx)

I went heavy on the Alice and a little heavier then reccomended on total seeding rate using 1/2 Alice and then approx. equal % of the other clovers and alfalfa.

Example: 2# Alice,1# Kopu 1# Jumbo, 1# Grazer (mix and match straight up /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif )Alfalfa alone should be seeded much heavier...

A simple mix for the beginner whould be to use 4-6# of Alice White Clover and 2#'s of Oasis Chicory. Most of my own clover seedings are straight Alice... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

4#'s Alice at $4.45 and 2 #'s chicory at $6.95 = roughly $30-40 an acre and Alice is coated with Apron as well.

Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

Kopu II White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=52)

Jumbo Ladino White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=51)

Grazer Brand Alfalfa (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=18)

You can add Berseem Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=332) if you choose.

add chicory at 2#'s per acre...

Oasis Forage Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=319)

Puna Chicory (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=77)


They pay 1/2 the shipping on legumes and most is already inoculated, however for 4 bucks...I add fresh Clover Inoculate (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=208)

This seed mix was $3.65 a pound and contains NO cheap annual or red clovers.

Clover seed planting rates are 2-4#'s per acre and you can add 2-6#'s of Berseem clover at roughly $1.65 a # if you want a quick annual clover. Oats are much cheaper, provide a great cover crop and a lush quick food plot, spring or fall to feed deer.

Frank Forage Oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=195) use 80-120#'s per acre for a cover crop. In the fall it will freeze off but if spring planted you may want to clip it before it get's too heavy and tall.

I haven't had any problems leaving oats and rye standing until they mature and then clipping it 8-10" high.

All of the seed was pre-inoculated but I added fresh.

Mix a very small amount of water to just moisten the seed and stir in the inoculant which looks like peat.

We tilled several times and broadcast about 2 bushel per acre of oats, then ran the cultipacker over it.

Before broadcasting the clover seed it looked like this:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cultipackedoncereadyforclover.jpg

I then broadcasted the clover seed onto the firmly packed soil surface and re-packed it to cover it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cultipacker-2.jpg

A cultipacker, lawn roller or ATV tires are very important when planting clover...press it in...don't drag it or you will bury it.

I tilled in fertilizer...ph was ok.

[Ghost]

And if you listen to Doubletree...you might get lucky and end up with something that looks like this... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Before these pictures I overseeded (frost seeded) and added 250# per acre of 6-24-24 in March...this is what happened in April. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

The bad thing is, if you do really good, be ready to spend some time on the mower...

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3085/8372007clover1.JPG
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3085/8372007clover2.JPG

[northwoods whitetails]

i have been checking out this forum for about 3 weeks and the info i have picked up is unreal. alot of questions have been answered here. i'm three years into a food plot/qdma plan on the property we hunt on and just last year we have seemed to turn the corner ( we shot two 8 points. one of the big factors was the three acres of clover we planted. with no farms within 5 miles, the deer just pounded it from sept until the snow got to deep. lookin to add more acreage in clover along with some eagle soy beans. thanks for all the great tips and advice. waiting for planting season in michigan's beautiful and cold upper peninsula

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no farms within 5 miles </div></div>

In a way that's almost a luxery because you don't have to compete for other food sources like we do.

Welcome to IW! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[kurtish]

Wow Ghost that is one heck of a stand of clover you have there...beautiful plot!

Has anyone ever tried a early spring Glypho application to their established clover plot to clean up unwanted grass and weed growth? Ed Spinnazola has an article on doing this at the QDMA site, but i'm a little apprehensive about it.

He recommends applying 1 quart/acre of glyphosate and ammonium sulfate sometime between from the beginning of May thru mid May....or when the grass/weeds have reached 4-6" tall. The light application will set back everything but the well established clover root system will bounce back, giving you a clean clover plot. I have one plot that i may just attempt to do this on this spring and I was hoping to get a little reassurance that the clover will indeed bounce back.

[Fishbonker]

I don't have any expereince with this, but my first thought would be to use a selective grass killer and then mow the weeds. I don't think I could get a steady enough application rate with my sprayer and I'd end up killing anything green.

I suppose the advantage would be one pass, but don't ya still need to keep the clover clipped?

The 'Bonker

[Ghost]

Yes, Ed Spinnazola says you will hate him the first week after application and love him the rest of the growing season.

I personally have never tried this.

You would certainly want your application rate to be perfect.

I'm on year #3 with my clover and so far mowing has been working for me for weed and grass control.

I also feel that a very thick stand of clover will reduce the amount of weed and grass competition.

The plots I have looked at that had grass problems were very thin stands of clover.

[northwoods whitetails]

on my clover plots (2 years old) i have stuck with mowing and spraying with select grass killer. last year i ferterlized in spring and early sept during the rainy season. the clover got extremly thick and choked out most of the grass. still have some thin spots that need attention this spring. but to make a long story short, two feedings, two mowings and two sprayings (grass killer) worked extremly well last year.

[dbltree]

It is getting that time of year to think about frost seeding clover and chicory. While February and March are considered the optimum times to frost seed clover, a little check of the weather forecast can better help you determine the perfect timing.

Clover seed is not like switchgrass seed in that it's not meant to be left out all winter exposed to the elements. All we want is to let Mother Nature "plant" our seed by means of a few weeks of freezing/thawing action. It doesn't need to be stratified like prairie grass and wildflowers.

This year we are getting colder then normal temps and plenty of snow here in mid February so I wouldn't feel "rushed" to start frost seeding clover. We want to wait for days that are slightly above freezing and nights below freezing. Perfect weather is when the soil is slightly "muddy" under foot during mid to late day but frozen to walk on in the early morning.

Having said all that...a good frosty morning with the soil frozen is a perfect time to broadcast clover and chicory seed. I prefer bare ground or a light dusting of snow. Snow isn't a big problem unless the ground is hilly in which case a quick melt can "carry" seed and move it around for uneven coverage. Some like the advantage of seeing where they have seeded when planting on a thin layer of snow.

I like to cut my seeding rate in half and then walk both ways to ensure I don't miss anything entirely or end up running out of seed before I cover the field at least once. Better to go over some of it a third time then run out!

When planting into a prepared seedbed in perfect planting conditions where seed is planted into a cultipacked (or firmed) seedbed then about 4#'s per acre is enough but frost seeding isn't as exact and conditions are far from perfect so 6-8#'s is reccomended and some plant at even heavier rates then that.

Planting costs are pretty minimal when using "hoof work" so a few extra pounds of seed might be worth it.

Lime can be put on any time from last fall thru spring and fertilzer could also be put on anytime the ground is frozen otherwise wait until it's dry so you don't tear up your new seeding.

It's always helpful to broadcast on to a surface with little residue, preferably something that was grazed, mowed, sprayed or in a crop such as soybeans last fall. We want seed to make soil/seed contact and that's tough if it lands in a pile of grass.

If the area is in some type of sod then clipping it as soon as possible in the spring will open it up for the clover seedlings and mowing and spraying with a herbicide such as Select will kill grasses. Check the label for timing of spraying when your dealing with a new seeding.

Check back thru this thread for pics and more info on frost seeding both clover and chicory and ask questions if you need more advice on frost seeding. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Blaster]

I want to frost seed over what i planted last fall. The clover was only 2in tall when the snow came. How much per acre over already seeded ground?

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

I'm going to be frost seeding clover in March on some pasture ground, but there is some weed growth on it already. What is a good herbicide for leafy plants such as clover that I should use so I don't kill the seed?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to frost seed over what i planted last fall. The clover was only 2in tall when the snow came. How much per acre over already seeded ground?
</div></div>

Normal spring/tilled seeding ratesare 2-4#'s of clover seed per acre, frost seeding rates are often higher...perhaps up to 8# per acre.

In your case somewhere between those numbers will suffice i'm sure. Your just putting on a little "insurance" and if you leave a portion "as is" you may be surprised on how thick it will come up this next year.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SEIowaDeerslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to be frost seeding clover in March on some pasture ground, but there is some weed growth on it already. What is a good herbicide for leafy plants such as clover that I should use so I don't kill the seed? </div></div>

You can use 2-4DB to kill broadleaf weeds in clover (NOT 2-4D) however any herbicides would be applied after weeds and clover are growing, so it's not going to affect the seed no matter what.

Check the herbicide thread and read the label for 2-4DB for correct application timing in young clover. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

This time of year when we're shed hunting, we tend to look for food sources adjacent to bedding areas and travel routes to food sources.

Clover for the most part is not one of those food sources. The pics were taken a few weeks back.

There is nothing left of the clover that was so lush and green last fall.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover2.jpg

In my case they are scratching around in the clover and then heading for the alfalfa for something to eat.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover1.jpg

That doesn't mean you shouldn't plant clover, it means you should divide your plots and plant several different types that will provide feed year around.

Even a small plot can be split...plant clover in 1/2 or a third, a rye, wheat, oats combo and perhaps a portion in brassicas.

Rye and wheat are sure to be a draw even right now in late winter, but clover will be the place to kill that strutting tom in April and provide high quality high protein forage when does are lactating and bucks are are developing antlers.

Diversity...(the opposite of "all your eggs in one basket... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )

It's the first week of March...perfect timing for frost seeding..in between snow/ice storms... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[ajadams]

Frost seeding doesn't look good for me. My clover/chicory plot that I plan on frost seeding was still waist deep on Sunday. And the few acres of hel that I am looking on putting switch on doesn't look much better. I'm just trying to find a window where I can clean up the mess from the first ice storm we had, I have tree limbs down all over in my killed sod.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My clover/chicory plot that I plan on frost seeding was still waist deep on Sunday. </div></div>

You still have plenty of time, hopefully we'll get that warmup this weekend and your snow levels will go down. It's bare ground here and perfect for frost seeding.

Remember, clover only needs a few days of freezing/thawing to make soil/seed contact. Switchgrass needs a little longer to help it stratify as well.

It's early yet...so have faith! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

Daytime temps are pretty warm this week but we still have some freezing nights ahead of us so don't wait to get your clover frost seeding done.

I purchased Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover for green manure/nitrogen production purposes and frost seeded it yesterday.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000817.jpg

Already pre-inoculated...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000818.jpg

Remember to take a long a "scoop"...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000819.jpg

I like these old "oil buckets", after being cleaned out the lid makes a safe dry storage/transportation container.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000821.jpg

Set your hand seeder on the lowest setting!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000822.jpg

In this case I was seeding about 10# per acre of red clover for plowdown purposes and seeding it into last falls oat or rye plots.

Hmmm..why is there cow tracks thru my food plot?? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000823.jpg

Anything that leaves the soil exposed makes it better for frost seeding...notice the tiny clover seed?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000825.jpg

Last years Alice White clover is just trying to "wake up"!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000827.jpg

This has absoultely nothing to do with clover...but everything to do with living in the country, and working on my tractor on a warm spring day in March!!

Whoowooo!! It's been a long winter and the sunshine feels great! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000839.jpg

[huntdoc]

I frost seeded yesterday in a couple wooded plots and wondered how much impact the leaf litter will have. Is it going to reduve seed germination a lot? Sure was nice to get out even if none of it grows!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I frost seeded yesterday in a couple wooded plots and wondered how much impact the leaf litter will have. Is it going to reduve seed germination a lot? Sure was nice to get out even if none of it grows! </div></div>

The seed does need to make soil contact but rains should "wash" the seed onto the soil, it just may be a little uneven perhaps.

I have the same problem with some of mine planted next to the timber.

I frost seeded Mammoth red clover (for green manure only...red clover IMO is not that great for deer feed...get's too rank and difficult to maintain compared to white clovers)into strips that I had rye and oats in them last fall.

The deer have literally eaten the rye to the soil leaving it perfect for frost seeding!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Frostseed1.jpg

The shallow tilled strips in one of my tree plantings give me a little more "space" for food plots. I will till the red clover under in late summer and replant rye n oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Previousryeplot.jpg

I went back over some of the clover plots I seeded last summer and frost seeded some seed I had left over back into them.

I posted earlier the various seed mixes, the Biologic and Imperial mixes failed completely. They were right next to the Welter, Durana and Tecomate mixes so I'm not sure what happened? At any rate I re-seeded those areas so we'll see if they take this time.

The Welter Mix contained Alice, Kopu 2, Jumbo Ladino and a grazing type alfaafa and seem to be doing well...but notice the leaf cover... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Note: you cannot frost seed alfalfa...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AliceKopu2mix.jpg

This is Durana tying to peek thru and it seemed to do as well as the Welter mix, so I seeded it where the Imperial didn't take.
I like this seed because you get just what you pay for...pure Durana white clover seed...nothing less...nothing more.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DuranaClover-1.jpg

The Tecomate mix seemed to do well so I seeded it where the Biologic mix didn't take. It was left over so no biggie but be aware that this mix (like Imperial) contains Berseem clover which cannot be frost seeded. 10% of the mix is wasted if you frost seed. It also contains Mammoth red clover which I have already mentioned. Back page to see all the different mixes and what they actually contain so you know what your paying for.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MonsterMix.jpg

There are many options for seeding clover,

Frost seeding in March

Spring seeding in April or early May

Summer seeding in July thru August

We have discussed these options and the pros and cons of each, all can work if done properly and we get good moisture when the seedlings need it most.

Summer seedings are my favorite because you won't have to fight spring rains and mud nor will you have to fight weeds that come up in spring seedings.

Summer seeded clover (or alfalfa)can be clear seeded (clover alone), or with a nurse crop. A nurse crop is more important in spring seedings to help smother weeds, but a summer seeding the "nurse crop" is more to provide a fall food plot while your clover is still young and too small to provide a fall food source.

Timing can vary for a summer plot, a late July seeding might be clear seeded. A mid August seeding could use oats while a late August seeding could use rye.

Late August may not be enough time for clover seedlings to become established before fall freezes. Growing time varies widely just in our state of Iowa let alone across the midwest but I have seeded all the way to Sept 6th with good success.

This example was posted earlier in this thread and was planted around Labor Day but in SE Kansas (if I'm not mistaken)

You can see that it worked perfectly!

Posted by Strmchzr:

"i've had better success planting clover in the fall compared to spring plantings in s.e. kansas. my spring clover plantings usually fall victim to grass competition early ~ i don't use herbicide which might really make a difference helping the clover get established.

imo, the best tip for planting clover is to plant winter rye as a nurse crop. winter rye (not rye grass) has alleopathic effects when planted w/ clover. basically, this means the rye provides natural "weed control" while the clover has a chance to establish. i let the rye grow thru the spring (turkeys love it) instead of mowing. by mid july, the rye is dead and there's a very clean stand of clover.

early april winter rye/ladino clover plot
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3172/aprilgreenery3wi.jpg

june winter rye/ladino clover plot
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5568/ltrye36gq.jpg

july plot
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5672/juneclover34of.jpg"

This is a clover seedling I planted in late August with oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clovernoats.jpg

The clover/oats combo worked well to establish a seeding and have a little fall forage as well. The deer literally ate the oats to the ground before it even had a chance to freeze!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct7cloverseedlings.jpg

I clear seeded this clover on Sept 6th 2006:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newcloverseeding.jpg

It looked like this in early Dec. and took off great this past year. That timing would have been perfect to have added rye but the seeding could also have failed if colder then normal temps had set in early.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NewseedinginDec.jpg

All of these planting dates worked well and looked like this a year later:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OneyearAliceClover.jpg

Here in SE Iowa average frost dates are mid October and some years even later so one could use oats knowing they will freeze off or rye that will provide winter long feed. Planting the last week of August could work for any combo of clover, oats and/or rye in southern Iowa at least.

Late summer seedings mean you won't have this problem for sure... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeedCrop.jpg

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

I just frost seeded my clover plots on some old pasture ground on Friday. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that those little buggers find their way into the dirt!

[northwoods whitetails]

the snow is finally off the food plots up here and i got to attempt frost seeding on our clover plots for the first time. ladino, white and a little alsike (no durana or kura available at the local seed dealers, but i'm working on it). also, nobody had any innoculant (working on that to) so i had to settle for grow coat, hope it works. the good news is that i see deer every time i go to work on the food plots... if it's greening up, they are eating it.. waiting for some warmer weather in upper michigan

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nobody had any innoculant </div></div>

If you can't locate inoculate in your area, call Welter's Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=21&org=0), they have it for most all types of legumes.

Welter's also carries Kura clover but remember that Kura is a little difficult to establish so read up on it before investing in some Kura seed.

Seedland (http://www.farmseeds.com/info/duranaclover.html) is one source for Durana white clover. I really like this clover but I can't say yet if it is really better then any other clovers, only that it seems pretty drought resistant /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[dbltree]

The red clover I frost seeded in March is up already (April 9th) /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCloverseedlings.jpg

Just little "specks" but it is up and growing! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000894.jpg

I did notice that darker (fertile) soil had quicker germination then lighter (in color)soils...makes sense since the darker soil would warm up faster.

Some pure Alice White Clover planted a year ago...looks good enough to eat!

Alice cost me less then $20 an acre and deer devour it!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AprilAliceWhiteClover.jpg

and just for comparison...alfalfa on April 9th

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AprilAlfalfa.jpg

Whatever varieties or types of clover you plant, please share how they are doing because...inquiring minds want to know... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[IowaBuckMaster]

How? and how long can you store clover seed?
Or should you only buy what you need when you need it?

from a place selling it....

Product Code: CLOV-DURANA-25

Regular Price: $159.50
Shipping Weight: 25.00 pounds

25 LB - Durana Clover / Coated Seed
Durana is one of the new varieties released / produced by Pennington Seed that has both yield increases and provides longer lived more persistant stands. Expect this clover to live several years longer than other older types in similar climatic conditions.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How? and how long can you store clover seed?
Or should you only buy what you need when you need it? </div></div>

It's always best to use fresh seed but I have stored it for a year. Germination will generally begin to drop as it gets older.

I would buy what you intend to use this year if at all possible, but I have used three old Alice clover seed and it germinated just fine.

Durana appears to be a great clover but it was developed and bred in the southern states, so we need to test it in our area awhile before assuming it is better then other clovers.

If you plant it please let us know how it does for you. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[TallTines]

Has anyone heard of yuchi arrowleaf clover?

I was reading a management book here the other day based out of the south and they were very high on this clover. They said it was the highest protein based clover they found as well as the most drought and disease resistent. They said it out performed their white Ladino's every year because of it's tolerance and high protein base.

Is this just a clover for the south or would it be a good one here in the midwest?

I wouldn't mind trying it.

[bbloom96]

I had planned on planting a clover alfalfa mix this spring but I am now afraid of weeds based on this post. The plot is 4 Ac and was planted to beans last year but not harvested other than by the deer. I have read that a mix of clover and summer wheat will keep weeds at bay in the spring. You then cut the wheat to the height of the clover during the summer and the clover takes over. Has anyone tried this. Any other suggestions? Should I replant beans and then plant clover this fall?

[Anderson]

There are herbicides to clean up weeds in clover/alfalfa. However, I feel its easier to clean them up in corn or beans. If you are concerned about weeds, I would plant RRCorn/RRbeans this spring and spray any weeds with glyphosate. I would then come back around Labor Day and plant wheat/clover. You will have a good attraction plot this fall and clover next year.

Tim

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BBloom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had planned on planting a clover alfalfa mix this spring but I am now afraid of weeds based on this post. The plot is 4 Ac and was planted to beans last year but not harvested other than by the deer. I have read that a mix of clover and summer wheat will keep weeds at bay in the spring. You then cut the wheat to the height of the clover during the summer and the clover takes over. Has anyone tried this. Any other suggestions? Should I replant beans and then plant clover this fall? </div></div>

Weeds can be a problem with spring planted clover so most of us use oats although wheat would serve the same purpose and clip it off later in the summer. The "nurse crop" will help hold back weeds by shading them and out competing them while the clover is small.

Fall planted clover can also be planted with oats for a great fall food plot and no clipping required. (no weeds either /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif )

You can roundup all you want ahead of time but usually weeds will come back, often within 2 weeks if the ground is tilled.

Fall or frost seeding makes that less of a problem. Lots of options so it's just a matter of what might work best for you. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TallTines</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone heard of yuchi arrowleaf clover?

I was reading a management book here the other day based out of the south and they were very high on this clover. They said it was the highest protein based clover they found as well as the most drought and disease resistent. They said it out performed their white Ladino's every year because of it's tolerance and high protein base.

Is this just a clover for the south or would it be a good one here in the midwest?

I wouldn't mind trying it. </div></div>

I believe it needs to be planted where there are milder winters

Arrowleaf Clover (http://forage.okstate.edu/text/arrowleaf.htm)

If you try some however, however let us know how it does /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[whitetailnut]

I have a maintenance question. How does mowing competing grasses in a clover plot actually help. Once you clip the grasses, does the clover actually begin to outgrow the grasses?? I have 3 acre plot here in southern MI, that has a lot of clover but the grass was already close to a foot tall. I mowed it yesterday and wonder what to expect?? Do I keep mowing it or spray with a herbicide. Thanks for the info!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does mowing competing grasses in a clover plot actually help. Once you clip the grasses, does the clover actually begin to outgrow the grasses?? </div></div>

Clover is low growing so keeping the grasses clipped off above the clover will help it to compete but without spraying I'm afraid the grasses aren't going away.

Using a good grass herbicide like Select will help get rid of the grasses while mowing is just going to barely keep them in check.

Clover and grass is a common combo for grazing cattle, so clover is perfectly capable of co-existing to some extent with grasses for awhile. Deer aren't crazy about grasses however so clipping them just above the clover will make it more readily available and more attractive to deer.

I try to kill grasses like brome (common in our area) with roundup before planting clover and then rotate to a nitrogen using crop such as brassicas when grass starts to re-invade in 3-4 years.

Alice white clover is capable of fixing up to 200 #'s of nitrogen per acre at a cost of $20 an acre for seed. With urea running $700-800 a ton (last I checked)...that's a pretty sweet deal.

[risto2351]

Dbl,
can I use select for a clover, chicory plot?

If not what can I use??

Thanks.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: risto2351</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Dbl,
can I use select for a clover, chicory plot?

If not what can I use??

Thanks. </div></div>

Select and Poast Plus are slective grass herbicides so I believe your safe using them on chicory.

[dbltree]

Ghost and I were wondering..."when is the best time to spray Select EC herbicide"? So I looked up the label and one thing that is important is to spray before you mow it. Select works better when it has full leaf area to absorb the herbicide.

The label gives optimium heights for spraying various grasses as 2-24" depending on the type of grasses with rates at 8-12 ounces and using crop oil.

Ammonium Sulfate (AMS) can also be added to clethodim to improve performance.

Select® 2 EC Herbicide labels (http://www.cdms.net/LabelsMsds/LMDefault.aspx?pd=880&t=)

General label (http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld837005.pdf)


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clover 15 days before grazing, feeding, or harvesting (cutting) for forage or hay 6 – 16 fl oz 1% v/v in the finished spray volume
Do not exceed 16 fl oz/A in a season.
</div></div>

Clethodim Label (http://www.greenbook.net/Docs/Label/L89361.pdf)

Select is roughly $130 a gallon which of course could vary depending on location and generic version.

128 ounces per gallon applied at roughly 12 ounces per acre your talking about 10 acres or so per gallon...or $13 an acre.

Most food plotter would be best off to split a gallon if they only have 3-4 acres to do. Select does have other uses including brassicas and soybeans and I'll post labels in those threads as well.

[nannyslayer]

Another thing to add Dbltree is, if you do mow the grass and clover, when the grass starts growing good again, that is a great time to spray Select. With the grasses growing good, they will absorb the chemical quickly and have a pretty quick effect.

[Sligh1]

QUESTION:
Ok, I read through many of the postings (did my homework in other words!) BUT I thought I'd cut to the chase. There were some mixed opinions on best chemicals and timing, etc.

I planted 4 plots this weekend, all contain Grazing Alf-alfa, Ladino, Alyce White, Persist Red, and Alsike all mixed together.

WHEN AND WHAT should I spray them with? Select? How many times and when is the best time to spray? Where's best place to buy this and what rate would you mix with a 25 gallon 4-wheeler sprayer? Lastly, how would you incorporate mowing into this, could I mow only and avoid spraying? (when should I 1st mow- obviously when weeds are gaining?).

FYI- 3 plots were on farely bare ground where I could seed with 4 wheeler after I hit with round-up a few days prior. Other plot is drilled into killed brome sod.
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WHEN AND WHAT should I spray them with? Select? How many times and when is the best time to spray? Where's best place to buy this and what rate would you mix with a 25 gallon 4-wheeler sprayer? Lastly, how would you incorporate mowing into this, could I mow only and avoid spraying? (when should I 1st mow- obviously when weeds are gaining?).
</div></div>

First lets wait and see if the plots even need to be sprayed. If you killed the sod good first with roundup, grass most likely won't be a problem the first year or two.

Grass often invades as clover plots get older and then one needs to spray a grass selective herbicide.

Weeds in new plots can usually be controlled with clipping above the new clover seedlings the first year.

Mow clover as needed as it gets too tall which may not even happen the first year. One just has to moniter it, but the 2nd and third years it may need to be mowed 4-5 times a year depending on moisture and soil fertility.

Check the herbicide thread for link to calibrating your sprayer which is the first step in determining amount of product you'll need to mix with water.

[ironwood]

Will mowing controll thisles. I have one plot, that is about an acre and was seeded last fall, that has a lot of thisles coming on strong. My first thought was to spot spray with crossbow/2-4D mix because I have it on the shelf and it needs to go somewhere. Is this a good idea or bad. What's the best approach. By the way the clover looks very thick and I am sure a little mowing will take care of other weed concerns.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will mowing controll thistles. </div></div>

I've never had thistles come back after mowing several times in clover but...there's a first time for everything /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I think I would give mowing a chance first and if a couple times doesn't do the trick then I would spray.

[dbltree]

Since we are comparing alfalfa and clover in my plots this year I thought I would share a dramatic photo of white clover and alfalfa that I already have established:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WhiteClovernAlfalfa.jpg

The pic shows the difference and why there can be management problems with alfalfa versus clover because of the rapid growth and height differences. Each has distinct advantages and niether is right or wrong for anyone.

Both are very high in protien and highly sought after by deer /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ClovernAlfalfa.jpg

I did seed plots of Alice, Kopu 2, and Jumbo Ladino next to my new alfalfa plots and adjacent to the various other types of food plots that I just established for tests and comparisons.

I hope to use some trail cams and exculsion cages to compare usage as well as look at various management problems or obstacles.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Seedbed.jpg

I varied the seeding rates between 4-8#'s per acre, tilled and packed, seeded, re-packed as shown previously in this thread. I used inoculate from Welters but needed no lime or addtional fertlizer.

I did use forage oats as a nurse crop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/Tillnpack.jpg

[Sligh1]

I know you said one isn't better than another as they each have ups/downs BUT when you are sitting on the plots or hunting them, do you notice deer seem to prefer one of the areas or plots more than the others?
At certain times of year do certain plots do better there than others next to them for having deer feed on them, say Alf-alfa vs. clover in Nov/Dec? Jan or say early season even?

[Daver]

In my experience, once you have a couple of good frosts on a clover food plot that has been trimmed down anyway by the ravaging herds, you don't have much food left to supply for the rest of the fall/winter. Clover is good and cheap, comparatively, and easier to start and maintain, but it also "goes away" quicker in the late fall. For me, the deer aren't really coming to the clover much after say late October, it is normally too short by then.

Meanwhile, although I have no alfalfa on my land proper, there are two sizeable fields of it adjacent to me and the deer will be in those, and other alfalfa fields far longer into the late fall/winter. Based upon my observations, in my area, it would be tough to beat alfalfa, even late into Jan/Feb, than even corn stalks and the clover is long gone by that point.

[dbltree]

Daver hit the nail on the head...late season alfalfa wins hands down on both my places. Alfalfa is just a "tougher" plant in that it has a stronger stem/root crown and hold green foliage around the bottom even in late winter.

They will feed on clover as long as it is there OR if it is the only feed available, but if alfalfa is anywhere close they will travel straight thru everything else with the exception of freshly combined corn.

Clover obviously is much easier to maintain due to it's short nature and it is tender and appealing. In October when its warm I suspect they would take either/or...but later on...well, look at the late season pics of deer feeding in the alfalfa and pics of the green foliage late in the season in the alfalfa thread.

All that aside...I will post pics as i go showing the difficulties in mowing alfalfa often enough to keep it from suffacating itself while white clover will be a piece of cake.

Always check on the possibles of a farmer putting up your alfalfa for hay...then it's a win win situation!! Nothing for you to do but hunt!

For smaller plots and for landowners who can only spend limited time at thier farm, clover is most likely the only viable option. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

We just planted 3.9 acres of clover on one plot and another 2.5 in another. We were hoping for alfalfa as I told dbltree but had to go with clover due to the lateness of the planting AND the fact that I wanted some food this fall and good green next spring for turkeys. Are these 4 acre/2.5 acre plots more appeaing for clover or is that big enough toget someone in there to mow alfalfa. Wish I could of done alfalfa but my hands were tied. Hopefully still draws em in!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are these 4 acre/2.5 acre plots more appeaing for clover or is that big enough toget someone in there to mow alfalfa </div></div>

Where I live there are lots of small fields like that, which farmers use for alfalfa but either clover or alfalfa should be appealing to deer.

Late season the clover I suspect will not hold up compared to alfalfa but it may still provide a draw if it is the only "green" in the area. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

It would be the only green but we will have to see how it does. Thanks~!

[Ghost]

I would have to disagree with what some of the others have said about clover not being very attractive to deer later into the Fall.

If your plot is already hammered by then, well yes. But, if you plan your last mowing in August and leave it alone, the deer will use it well into the Winter.

I guess it depends on how good your stand of clover is going into the Fall. My problem has never been over browsing, its been being able to keep up with mowing it back.

Every year the deer will be all over the field when it is covered in snow scratching for the green clover. No sign of that in the local alfalfa fields.

It's really hard to make general statements. One guy will tell you his turnips got hammered, and another guy will tell you his turnips didn't get touched.

I do know deer will utilize clover in my area year round.

p.s. I mowed my clover plot two weeks ago because it was starting to get a bit grassy/steamy and was about 18 inches tall.

[risto2351]

Ghost,

How high do you mow it??

[Ghost]

8 to 10 inches Tony. I just raise the deck on my 620 Allis and roll like that. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

It will really thicken up your plot. I allows more sunlight into the newly growing clover below. This is what the deer prefer, instead of the tall steamy mature clover.

I mowed 5 or 6 times last Summer. Really helps with grass and weed control too. This is the first year I am going to spray SELECT.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's really hard to make general statements. One guy will tell you his turnips got hammered, and another guy will tell you his turnips didn't get touched.
</div></div>

Ghost is right of course, no one should ever think that on type of food plot is right for everyone in all situations. Even different varieties within a crop such as clover, we all have very different soil types and surrounding competition to deal with.

Lots and lots of variables and options which makes this forum so valuable as a means to share what works for different people.

Half the fun for me is trying different things to see what will work best for me but I find very different results just between my two farms so it's important to remember nothing is cut in stone. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Daver]

I think another thing worth mentioning is that judging by the pictures that Ghost has posted of his clover plots, they look far better than mine so that could also play a big part in what the deer prefer in a given area. Also, some of my clover is more secluded in terms of visibility to the road, etc, and some is fairly visible to the road. The more secluded areas are generally more popular with the deer of course.

In the end, trial and experience will reveal what is best in your area.

[huntyak]

Great tips Ghost! I had a VERY SMALL 1/4 or less clover plot last year that I had deer coming to through January. I would find patches where they were pawing through the field and I had cut corn and 1/4 standing corn around me that I left! So, I was confused why they did this while most everyone always tod me after first frost its over. Wasn't sure if my clover aws different etc. I am below a rookie at food plots..fast learning curve! So, I guess it really depends on your area but Ghost def Increased my confidence for this next year as I planted quit a few more acres this spring! I planted turnips two years ago, milo, brassicas and they won't touch it, relatively speaking, so who knows?? Thats the fun though!

[Sligh1]

If you had choice of say 2-4 clovers ONLY, which would you choose as the very best, pretend cost is not an issue what-so-ever. I do not have NEAR the experience BUT have had good luck with Alice White, Jumbo Ladino and Persist Red. Some of what I am looking for is obvious- high protein, late dormancy, great forage & establishment/maintanence, etc. What's your choice/opinion?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you had choice of say 2-4 clovers ONLY, which would you choose as the very best, pretend cost is not an issue what-so-ever. I do not have NEAR the experience BUT have had good luck with Alice White, Jumbo Ladino and Persist Red. Some of what I am looking for is obvious- high protein, late dormancy, great forage & establishment/maintanence, etc. What's your choice/opinion? </div></div>

You'll get a hundred (at least /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif )different opinions on this subject and to be honest if price is not of the essence, there are many great white clovers that if planted side by side I doubt that deer or landowners could tell the difference.

Clovers are bred for grazing and drought resistant attributes and I know that Alice and Durana clovers are at the top of the list.

I like to mix up my own "concoctions" so that I don't have all my "eggs in one basket" so to speak. I plant Alice, Kopu 2 and Jumbo Ladino or straight Durana.
I would dare anyone to plant almost any good quality white clover and then tell me "deer don't like it"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Protien content in white clover is one of the highest and the difference between clover varieties is minimal despite "advertising claims". Looking back through this thread you can see that I have planted all types of white clovers and name brand mixes and in the end Alice and Durana work best for me just based on growth and drought resistance. Jumbo Ladino gets a little taller but that's about the only difference in that regard.

Deer eat all of it without hesitation and the only ones that have failed at seeding were some of the "big name brands" (why I don't know)

Red clover is something different altogether and requires a little more management to keep it from getting rank.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has tried a variety of white clover that they don't like because...it failed? Deer won't eat it? Deer eat something else instead?

Besides Skip...I'm planting a "secret weapon" and they will all be at my place... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sleep.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[dbltree]

These are June 1st pics of last years clover plantings and some newly seeded clover.

There always questions about the "best" clover but that's a litle like asking farmers which is the "best" seed corn or if Ford or Chevy is better (obviously FORD! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sleep.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif )

Each clover variety has each own positive attributes and of course this is why one rarely plants just one variety. Mixing several together gives us a chance to have the best of each one and less likely to have it fail entirely due to drought, over grazing etc.

Keep in mind that the clover I planted last year is on poor, unimproved ground that hasn't been tilled in well over 20 years!

I planted test plots in strips in one of my tree plantings. No lime, no fertilizer and last summer...no care of any kind until the ragweeds were over the hood of Alice! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeedCrop.jpg

You could say that I tested these clovers under the very worst of conditions and those that survive...well, imagine if one planted them on great soil with proper PH and fertility! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

They could stand to be clipped and I have plans to spray with Select this summer but here are the "survivors of last years plantings.

Durana Clover

This clover has done very well although this is not a great picture, it's very thick, not to tall and did very well. Some weed growth makes it look not very clean but close up it looks fantastic. I can only imagine what Durana would look like on good fertile ground. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Duranaclover6-1-08.jpg

I planted a mix of Alice, Kopu 2 and Jumbo Ladino white clovers from Welter Seed and these clovers have not failed me regardless of how poor the soil was.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alicenkopu2clover.jpg

This is just a pic of the Jumbo Ladino leaf in this mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Jumboladinoclover.jpg

The Tecomate Clover mix is the only commercial mix that didn't fail, again that doesn't mean that under proper conditions that the others wouldn't have thrived...but it does tell you something about the more expensive seed mixes... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tecomateclovermix6-1-08-1.jpg

There was chicory in the Tecomate mix which also seems to be doing fine.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tecomateclovernchicory-1.jpg

I'll share pics of these later this summer after I get them clipped and sprayed but it's always interesting to show them under the worst adverse conditions, rather then only the very best.

Clovers such as Alice and Durana were specificlly developed to survive under very dry conditions and they have proven that to me.

I also planted the Welter mix on my good soil this spring to compare with alfalfa and other types of food plots. I planted them with forage oats and mixed in some berseem clover.

This seed was left over from last year but seemed to have excellent germination.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover6-01.jpg

Baby Alice white clover:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5001104.jpg

The only problem I expect here is a flush of foxtail anytime now, but I can clip and/or spray with Select to clean it up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5001099.jpg

If anyone has pics of their own clover plantings or different varieties of white clovers that you can sahre, please post it here for more comparisons. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

Scenario & QUESTION.

I planted to different plots both in Clover/Alf-alfa mix. Plot 1 - I BLASTED it several times with round-up, I mean FRIED it! Plot 2 I hit it with Round-up once (good weather) and hit it pretty good. Planted both within a few days of last spraying. Plot 1 I planted seed really thick (I think like 20 lbs to acre). Plot 2 I planted lighter, around 10-13 lbs to the acre. Planted both about 3-4 weeks ago.

Plot 1 has no weeds and is coming up thick and AMAZING!!!
Plot 2 is coming up nice BUT has a lot of grasses mixed in.

BASICALLY, should I hit it with SELECT, if so when (more than once?)? If I hit it with Select where do I get it at best price? I'm sure there's mixing instructions on how concentrated to make it? OR should I continue to mow and not worry bout grass this year?

[dbltree]

Grasses unlike broadleaves aren't going away (with the exception of foxtail)so eventually spraying with Select might be the answer.

I don't think it's a huge problem at this point though so you might wait and allow more grasses to emerge, perhaps even clip once, and then spray the new regrowth.


Clover is very well adapted to co-existing with grass, that's why we interseed it into cattle pastures. So grasses aren't going to kill the clover or anything but eventually grass will continue to invade and take over. Spraying a grass herbicide will help take care of that problem

[Sligh1]

THANKS dbltree, much appreciated as usual!
Is there another thread here that talks about cheapest and best place to purchase SELECT if I later decide to go that route. And concentration instructions?
Does it hinder, stress or set back clover/alf-alfa at all?

Thanks again!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THANKS dbltree, much appreciated as usual!
Is there another thread here that talks about cheapest and best place to purchase SELECT if I later decide to go that route. And concentration instructions?
Does it hinder, stress or set back clover/alf-alfa at all?

Thanks again!!!! </div></div>

Check the herbicide thread to find Select labels but 6-8 ounces per acre should do it without causing harm to seedling alfalfa and clover.

Remember you'll need to add 1% crop oil as well so pick up a gallon when you get yout Select.

Check with nannyslayer as far as price and availability but most ag suppliers in areas where hay is grown should carry Select herbicide. Prices change of course but I suspect your looking at roughly $135 a gallon depending on the exact product.

There are several types, Select 2 EC and Select Max for instance but I'm not aware of any major differences as far as clover and alfalfa are concerned. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

dbltree, I mentioned spraying some SELECT on some new clover/alf-alfa planting. Covered and smothered with grass. Now, there's lots of spots with no clover or alf-alfa. (Out of 4 plots, this was the only one that turned out like this!). It's sparse and spotty. If I spread some clover in August or something before a rain, would that thicken it up. Basically, is there anyway to add more clover to make it thicker this year? Or am I just going to have to frost seed later. THANKS!!!

[Ghost]

Skip,

Yes you can have some luck broadcasting clover in late Summer as long as we have the rains to get good seed to soil contact.

Obviously this doesn't work as well as frost seeding or seeding a new plot. I would also recommend to max out the seed application rate.

It will be hit or miss depending on the rain though.

[Sligh1]

THANKS GHOST, I'll give it a whirl, this is only about a 1/2 to 3/4 acre plot SO putting a lot of seed PER ACRE won't be as costly, thanks much!

[huntyak]

Ghost or DblTree-I am having the same problem as Sligh1. Some spots look amazing, others bare. My grasses are taking off too but there is alot of clover around them. Hopefully as time goes on the grasses will die off and the clover will tke over. Don't want to cut now because they are new seedlings.

Will future mwing have the same effect as Select?

In your opinion would it be better to frost seed than re-apply in August preceding a rain?

Also, when re-seeding or seeding in general, how many lbs per acre should I use of clover (red/white/ ladino mix)? Just trying to make sure I don't have to buy more seed than I have to.

Thanks..you guys are a HUGE help for a rookie in plots!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My grasses are taking off too but there is alot of clover around them. Hopefully as time goes on the grasses will die off and the clover will tke over. Don't want to cut now because they are new seedlings.

Will future mwing have the same effect as Select?

In your opinion would it be better to frost seed than re-apply in August preceding a rain?

Also, when re-seeding or seeding in general, how many lbs per acre should I use of clover (red/white/ ladino mix)? Just trying to make sure I don't have to buy more seed than I have to.
</div></div>

The grasses aren't going to "die out" in fact they will thicken and spread unless you use a grass herbicide like Select.

Mowing will have no effect on grasses, however it will help control broadleaf weeds. Just like the "grass" in your lawn, the grass in your clover plot will just keep coming back.

Frost seeding would be more effective but if you can broadcast some ahead of a good soaker later this summer it just might work. Soil/seed contact is the kicker and the freezing/thawing action of late winter is helpful in making that contact.

Red clover is generally broadcast at 8-15# per acre but ladino (white) clover is usually much less at 4-6#'s but again if conditions aren't to great then more might be better.

20#'s put on at the wrong time won't do what 2#'s put on properly will do. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Ghost]

Mowing will help to control the grasses, but if it gets too bad then a good dose of Select will help.

Frost seeding is always better than just "overseeding" in the Fall.

Your best bet may be to wait to seed until mid-March and just keep it mowed this Summer.

Then in mid-March, go in and hit it with 5 to 7 pounds per acre clover seed and add 250 pounds per acre of 6-28-28.

I can come take a look at it with you sometime if you want. You got my number... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Ghost]

I see we were typing at the same time again Paul... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I see we were typing at the same time again Paul... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

</div></div>

and great minds think alike! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

[Sligh1]

I think I might try BOTH seeding before a rain AND frost seeding later BECAUSE- I know frost seeding is better BUT I want as much clover as possible for this fall (having deer snacks all over!) PLUS it's less than an acre (if it fails I might be out $50). Now, the point where I wouldn't do the before rain, late summer broadcast is if someone said "there's little to no chance it will improve your FALL PLOT". It sounds like from above, there's a DECENT CHANCE (???) it could thicken it up. I know after frost seeding this next March my plot will be MONEY but hopefully there's some "hope" for this fall. There's a chance I might want to yank a drill into the area and just drill in about 10-15 lbs too. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR ABOVE SUGGESTIONS!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"there's little to no chance it will improve your FALL PLOT" </div></div>

I would try for a late July/early August seeding to get enough growth by fall Skip. It won't get very big even then but it's better then not having anything for sure. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

Thanks Guys! More helpful than any magazine! Ghost, I will def take you up on that offer! Have had trouble getting down from Cedar Rapids and Coralville until yesterday with the flood. I'll give you a buzz and maybe after work on a Wed I can meet you out at my place this summer. Thanks Paul..again...I appreciate it!

[Sligh1]

LAST QUESTION, in next month or so here I will buy some seed for down the road (wait as long as I can). For the ways I described broadcasting (late summer & Frost seeding) & say cost is no issue (small acreage amounts), what would be your top couple choices? My sparse plots have Jumbo Ladino, grazing alf-alfa, Alice white, small amount of Persist red, small amount of alsike.

I am leaning towards Jumbo Ladino and maybe one other, possibly Kura clover and/or some Alice white. Opinions?!?!? THANKS!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the ways I described broadcasting (late summer & Frost seeding) & say cost is no issue (small acreage amounts), what would be your top couple choices? My sparse plots have Jumbo Ladino, grazing alf-alfa, Alice white, small amount of Persist red, small amount of alsike.

I am leaning towards Jumbo Ladino and maybe one other, possibly Kura clover and/or some Alice white. Opinions?!?!? </div></div>

I would discourage anyone from trying to broadcast alfalfa seed on untilled ground. I won't say it will never work but it has rarely been successful for me and frost seeding alfalfa never works, so in your case I would rule out alfalfa.

Kura clover is also difficult and slow to establish under even the best circumstances and soil/seed contact is crucial so again it is a poor choice for this type of seeding.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Establishment
Kura clover establishes well with orchardgrass, tall fescue, bluegrass, reeds canarygrass, bromes, timothies, birdsfoot trefoil, and both red and white clovers. These companion species should be seeded at moderate seeding rates. Ryegrass and festuloliums can be added after Endura has successfully established. When seeding, it is ideal to use a brillion seeder, a no-till drill or a cultipacker. Seed to soil contact is vital to having a successful stand. Take caution to not plant seed more than 1/4" deep.
Management
Producers must realize that Kura clover is more difficult to establish than either white or red clovers. Competive grasses must be controlled, especially during the first six weeks of growth. Newly established stands must be grazed or clipped if established with grasses to reduce competition. Herbicides may be applied for weed control if sowing a pure stand. Weed control and proper grazing management the first year is vital to stand establishment.

</div></div>

Alice, Jumbo Ladino, Kopu 2 and Durana and almost any types of red clovers will have a reasonable chance broadcast this summer ahead of a good rain and excellent success if you frost seed them.

Other white clovers will of course have the same chance of success if you find a deal on them. Ghost has a very reasonable source for alsike clover seed although I prefer white clover for palatability for deer.

Many commercial mixes will have white and red clovers that will work well but they are just a little to expensive for me. They contain to many seed types that would not do well unless tilled and planted properly. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[risto2351]

Put this plot in last year in the spring. It was mainly white clovers with chicory. It was real weedy and sparse last year. I frost seeded the bare spots this spring and mowed it two weeks ago.
It has really taken off.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/deer_pics_410.jpg

I can not even see the chicory.


http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/deer_pics_408.jpg





I would like to cut it but it again but it is in CRP. I will have to wait until the nesting season is over. I will spray this coming weekend or the next.



http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/deer_pics_407.jpg

[TallTines]

[/quote]I would like to cut it but it again but it is in CRP. I will have to wait until the nesting season is over. I will spray this coming weekend or the next. [/quote]

I think if the clover plot is built into your conservation plan that you can mow when you want to.

[dbltree]

That looks awesome!! I can see a little chicory but the clover is pretty thick for sure.

Doesn't look like any real threatening weed or grass problems in those pics at least so it should be fine until August, especially if you spray.

Remember you could have someone harvest it for hay by paying the $75 fee at FSA to release it for haying. Good way to remove all the growth and not have to worry about smothering.

If you clip it yourself...do just that, clip the weeds and flowering tops of the clover but no need to mow it to the ground unless your going to bale it.

2nd year clover always looks much better then the first year and with some care it should look great for a long time to come.

Thanks for sharing the pics Tony /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

ON AVERAGE, when is the last time you all generally cut your clover or alf-alfa AND at what height? Basically, how tall do you like it to be when fall hunting is upon you?

I obviously love the great browse/nutrition in the summer BUT I want optimal tenderness and palatability to attract deer late into fall with enough leaf for it to last as long as possible.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ON AVERAGE, when is the last time you all generally cut your clover or alf-alfa AND at what height? Basically, how tall do you like it to be when fall hunting is upon you?
</div></div>

Everybody has different situations and conditions but I ususally try for early September. Clover could be cut a little later but alfalfa needs time to regenerate and cutting during the month of September is usally not reccomended.

I just clipped on of my Alice White Clover plots and took some pics that shoe before and after and how I do it but that does not mean one can cut taller or shorter, less or more. Just sharing what works for me.

This is a small plot of Alice right beside alfalfa and adjacent to heavy cover so they hit it the moment they step out.

Heavy farm equipment has been run over it recently during haying of the alfalfa:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AliceWhiteClover6-22.jpg

I like Alice because it doesn't get real tall:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NotTall.jpg

Hard to see but if you look close you can see where they have been grazing it and nipping the tender tops off:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grazed.jpg

This plot is several years old and some grass is starting to invade but clover is well adapted to growing in and among grass.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grasses.jpg

This is a different plot that has gotten somewhat weedy:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weedy.jpg

I just clipped them for the first time June 22nd and will spray Select to kill grasses when they start to grow again.

This gives you some idea of the height I cut mine and I could have even clipped it a little higher.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ClippedClover.jpg

White clover just doesn't get rank and tough like red clover or alfalfa, so it pretty much stays green, lush and palatable until cold weather. Clipping the tops off often is all that is needed.

If you have rich fertile soil with plenty of moisture such as Ghosts clover plot then growth may be so heavy that more frequent mowings may be needed.

Ghost shared this pic in another thread but it is perhaps some of the best clover I have ever seen.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3192/june2008.JPG

Soil type can make a huge difference in fertility and moisture retention and that can vary widely on any given farm let alone across the state so everyone will have different maintenance requirements.

Types of clovers and alfalfa also require different mowing schedules but for white clover I would just clip the tops in early to mid September to encourage a flush of new growth by opening day.

Another trick is to give clover a shot of nitrogen, even though it is a legume it will make it very "happy" and encourage some sweet succulent growth. Urea is expensive so perhaps using some in a prime area or funnel spot. If you pick it up at a lawn care center remember not buy any with weed killer in it!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntdoc]

I have a small clover plot doing fairly well, does have some weed growth. It is remote and I have never mowed it, but the clover has no blossoms and lots of nipped off stems. If the deer do the mowing for me, is there any other reason to clip other than to knock back the weeds? Just wondered if the clover "needs" to be mowed back.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a small clover plot doing fairly well, does have some weed growth. It is remote and I have never mowed it, but the clover has no blossoms and lots of nipped off stems. If the deer do the mowing for me, is there any other reason to clip other than to knock back the weeds? Just wondered if the clover "needs" to be mowed back. </div></div>

I wouldn't worry about clipping it if the deer are doing that for you, that's the advantage of white clover, it's pretty easy to maintain.

White clover has such a short height stature that it just doesn't usually get to a point where it just has to be mowed.


As I mentioned that depends a great deal on soil type because if it has all the right "stuff" it's going to grow too high and need to be clipped every so often.

If you have red clover in the mix, that's another story because it get's stemmy and rank.

I'd say yours isn't a problem right now at least. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

I sprayed Select 2 EC grass herbicide on some new clover seedings and some older clover stands that had brome and other grasses creeping back into them.

The new seeding has mostly foxtail and I could have gotten by with just mowing but wanted to test the Select on some of it.

I split a gallon with a friend which makes it a little more affordable because it can run nearly $140 a gallon. If you can't find any locally , PM nannyslayer and he can fix you right up /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Select 2EC (Clethodium) is applied postemergence at 6-8 Fl oz. per acre.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Select2EC.jpg

Crop oil must be used with it at 1% of final spray solution.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Usewcropoil.jpg

I take a long a measuring cup so I don't have any guess work.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Measure.jpg

Most grasses the label suggests spraying at 2-8" so I mowed my older stand as noted in my previous post and waited for the regrowth before spraying.

2,4–DB Amine (Butyrac 200) can be tank mixed with Select at 2.0–6.0 pt per acre to control broadleaves but I'm not having a problem with them and I find them easy to control via clipping.

The Durana clover the end of June was doing very well, I took the following pics just before clipping these plots which happen to be in a tree planting and was sorely in need of having the weeds clipped. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Durana6-28.jpg

Close up of the Durana leaves...deer had been grazing it pretty hard and the strips were full of beds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Duranaleaves.jpg

The Alice, Kopu 2 and Jumbo Ladino Clover mix from Welters

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alice6-28.jpg

and some Grazer Alfalfa that I added to the mix (hard to see in all the clover...)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GrazeralfalfanWeltersMix.jpg

I planted new plots of the above mentioned clover seeds from Welters next to alfalfa and falcata alfalfa plots to compare pros and cons and see how clover stacks up to alfalfa.

I planted them all with Forage Oats from nannyslayer and added berseem clover as well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/7-04clovernoats.jpg

It's all very thick and lush and doing very well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/7-4-08Clover.jpg

The oats are heading out now and I should mention the clover seed from Welters is two years old, having been left over from last year. If germination was affected...you could've fooled me!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clovermixinoats.jpg

but they served their purpose in acting as a nurse crop and providing early spring forage for deer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cloverseeding7-4.jpg

I really love the Berseem Clover, it takes off quickly and can be noted by the longer slender leaves vs the rounder "cloverleaf" of the white clover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BerseemClover-2.jpg

Berseem is an annual clover that is often added to brand name mixes, however it is very inexpensive seed and you will end up paying 4-5 times it's value in a commercial mix.

Welters Berseem Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=332) seed is roughly $1.65 a # and they will sell it by the pound.

Welters White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0) seed will average $4 a pound and at 4 pounds per acre plus a pound of berseem your looking at a 20 dollar bill versus 40 bucks for a 1/2 worth from some seed companies.

I did like the Tecomate mix which was reasonably priced but it hasn't fared to well on the dry clay soil where I planted it and the other mixes.

Durana and Alice really shine under poor conditions, however if you have moist fertile clay soils then almost any of the clover mixes sold commercially will do great (price not withstanding...)


This is some mature red clover and you can see it get's much taller and ranker then white clover and requires several clippings to keep it palatable to deer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MatureRedClover.jpg

Red clover is a better choice with alfalfa or managed alone IMO and nannyslayer has some resonably priced premium red clover seed available if you choose that route.

I like to add red clover with a fall rye plot or frost seed it into a brassica plot, previous soybean plot etc. It's a great source of nitrogen when plowed down and makes great hay if you have a farmer willing to bale it.

I'll post results of the Select spraying after it's had time to work and I have some more to do that I just mowed...stay tuned. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

This link is about managing weeds in alfalfa and clover is pretty much the same when it comes to dealing with herbicides.

Managing Weeds in Alfalfa (http://lubbock.tamu.edu/othercrops/pdf/alfalfa/nmsuweedmgmt.pdf)

It provides more information about types and tank mixes and other "need to know" information before you fill the sprayer tank! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[koba]

Butyrac 200 & Crop Oil will kill the weeds !! This year i am probably Not gonna mow just weed whack the grasses, since Select is so EXPENSIVE !! Hey maybe i buy some BILLY GOATS !!

[dbltree]

I mowed one Alice white clover plot on June 25th (see pic in previous posts) and took this pic on July 5th...amazing! Never had an ounce of fertilizer and poor dry ground to boot!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alice2weeksafterbeingcut.jpg

I sprayed Select on this plot because it has some grass working it's way in...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grassinclover-2.jpg

The grass appears to be about the right height however a successful kill will confirm that. I just wanted to have a reference as to how long after mowing can we spray? How quickly after mowing will clover recover?

Obviously white clover can recover very quickly and grasses may be ready to spray only a few days after mowing if there is suffcient moisture to encourage growth. 2-8" is what the Select label calls for and this grass is all of that so we'll see what happens.

There are lot's of great clover varieties out there but I have tried Alice on all types of soils and planted it sprig, summer fall and frost seeded it and never once...has it failed and did I mention...
deer love it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Alice Clover seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264)

Barenburg White Clover Varieties (http://www.barusa.com/Products_Forage/White%20Clover.htm)

University Tests (http://extension.missouri.edu/adair/livestock/forageupdate.htm)

Alice White Clover (http://www.forgraze.com/AliceWhiteCloverArticle.htm)

Identify Pasture Legumes (http://www.uwrf.edu/grazing/LegumesBooklet.pdf)

I like to mix Alice and Kopu 2...

Ampac Newsletter - Alice and Kopu 2 (http://www.ampacseed.com/pdfs/newsletters/April2004News.pdf)

[huntyak]

Is it Ok to let weeds grow on a first year stand of clover? Seems they are growing great "under" the weeds and I didn't want to risk damaging the seedlings. Any Thoughts on whether I should mow or let it be?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it Ok to let weeds grow on a first year stand of clover? Seems they are growing great "under" the weeds and I didn't want to risk damaging the seedlings. Any Thoughts on whether I should mow or let it be? </div></div>

Clover is able to survive quite well as an understory to grass...up to a point.

Your not going to damage your clover seedlings at this point but you also don't really need to actually cut the seedlings, clip the weeds above the clover.

Just don't wait until you have a mess like this... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeedCrop.jpg

You don't want to let those weeds go to seed and you also don't want to smother the clover when you mow it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Windrowofweeds.jpg

Surprisingly enough the clover actually survived that mess and looks real nice this year.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alice6-28.jpg

This is what a spring clover seeding should look like

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/7-4-08Clover.jpg

I do have a couple spots where broadleafs are trying to become a problem

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Weeds.jpg

but we're going to mow and bale every thing in a few weeks which means no worries about smothering or weed seeds left behind.

I would think about clipping the tops of weeds in any new or established clover or alfalfa plots right now and perhaps a second clipping in late August or early September.

[Iowabowtech]

Thanks for all the updates Paul. Great job on this thread and others as always.

[Sligh1]

Hit a plot with SELECT that needed it like I earlier discussed. I'll work on getting pictures. Checked back yesterday and all the grass is turning yellow, clover & alf-alfa look good! It's actually a nasty thick stand of premium food now!!!

QUESTION- one the plots I didn't have time to lime and fertilize this spring, crappy soil. I have a soil test result SO I know what to add and it does need both lime and fertilizer. When would you apply this? I am looking for a combination of allowing the fertilizer to make the plot better for this fall, NOT hurt the plants by burning them AND finally, getting the plants some nutrition that's needed (they look ok BUT look really dark green instead of the highly fertilized NEON GREEN I like to see). Thanks!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it does need both lime and fertilizer. When would you apply this? </div></div>

I'm not aware of a reason that you couldn't go ahead and apply it anytime now, although it would be nice to have a good rain right afterwords just to wash every off the foliage.

I can't recall ever applying lime to growing plants, always have done it in the winter or to tilled soil but I can't say I have ever heard of it hurting anything.

Nitrogen fertlizer can burn foliage a little but you won't be needing that so I think I'd go a head and apply whatever it neads.

Now I have a question....how long ago did you apply the Select?

Just wondering the time frame from application to seeing "dead stuff"? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

Applied SELECT about 10 days ago. Now, the label said to spray SELECT BEFORE mowing, then mow 1-2 weeks later. What I did was mow, then spray 6 oz's to acre with crop oil of course a day later. I was crunched for time AND I only had an acre to spray SO I figured if it didn't work so well I could re-do it. I won't need to. The only caution I had for damaging plants was to not spray alf-alfa with SELECT when it was super tall so I made sure I didn't.

Bottom line, worked EXCELLENT, I am very impressed! My grass will be completely fried by this weekend as it's pretty yellow as of yesterday. The only thing I was impressed with was how much my gallon of SELECT costed me /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I think I should have gone with a pint instead of a gallon (for an acre). Oh well, I'll have enough SELECT until the year 2042. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

I mean NOT IMPRESSED, I either got ripped or that stuff is crazy expensive! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[nannyslayer]

Select runs from a price of 131 to 182 dollars a gallon, just depending on which chemical company you go through.

[bowhuntr311]

Ok, I had to spray my clover plot with something. The whiteweed and grass where waist deep, and my atv mower is not operational and Im not sure when it will be.

A buddy and I both needed to spray about 1.75acres total between our two plots. We thought, well we can pay $30 a pint for arrest and be done with it. Well with in a 60min drive in any direction there was 1pint. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

I had to go and buy a 2.5gal jug of Poast. Poast is 18% active ingrediant and the arrest was 13%. I paid $11 a pint for Poast and they wanted $32 for arrest. I sprayed sunday evening, just got back from checking my plot. Grass is hurting compared to other grass that wasnt sprayed. But if you didnt have anything to compare it to you wouldnt know. I didnt have any crop oil. I sprayed 1pint per 10gal. It took me about 15 gal to do my "almost acre" plot. I sprayed double around the edges where the grass is the heaviest. The grass is 3ft or better tall, I knew it would do alot better if I mowed it but thats not really an option yet.

What I am most impressed with is the whiteweed is starting to die(I think). When I sprayed the plants where perfectly healthy. Now tonight almost every plant I saw that I know got sprayed has atleast the bottom 4 leaves turning yellow. I didnt know Poast would kill whiteweed but it seems to be working on it /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I dont know if whiteweed is the correct name for it, but its nothing but a stem with a little white flower on top and little single leaves off of the stems alternating sides.

Dean

[Sligh1]

Yeah, I got mine on the higher end of that on the way to my land when I stopped.
I will mention, out of all my plots I have Alice white, Ladino, a bit of red, some grazing alf-alfa AND some Alsike for wet bottom ground. The plot I am the MOST IMPRESSED with is the Alice White, it's on crappy ground, looks AMAZING (dbltree earlier mentioned success on poor ground with Alice), it's filled with deer, has no weeds because it's so aggressive with competition and LASTLY- from dbltree's link it has one of the best winter-hardy ratings, better than Ladino. Many other benefits as well. I love stuff to stay green as long as possible and I have had excellent luck in another Alice plot through Muzzleloading season. Deer were feeding on it in January with standing corn right next to it!

BOTTOM LINE- I strongly suggest throwing some Alice White into the mix of your plot plans!!!!!!!!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, I got mine on the higher end of that on the way to my land when I stopped.
I will mention, out of all my plots I have Alice white, Ladino, a bit of red, some grazing alf-alfa AND some Alsike for wet bottom ground. The plot I am the MOST IMPRESSED with is the Alice White, it's on crappy ground, looks AMAZING (dbltree earlier mentioned success on poor ground with Alice), it's filled with deer, has no weeds because it's so aggressive with competition and LASTLY- from dbltree's link it has one of the best winter-hardy ratings, better than Ladino. Many other benefits as well. I love stuff to stay green as long as possible and I have had excellent luck in another Alice plot through Muzzleloading season. Deer were feeding on it in January with standing corn right next to it!

BOTTOM LINE- I strongly suggest throwing some Alice White into the mix of your plot plans!!!!!!!! </div></div>

Thanks for the feed back Skip! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I wanted to share this pic which shows second cutting alfalfa in the back, a small plot of Alice White Clover and then some Mammouth Red Clover in the foreground.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/2cloversnalfalfa.jpg

The ground is about as poor as you can get, hard pan, red clay subsoil. Water hit's the "ground runnin'" and niether of the clover plots have had lime or fertilizer (the alfalfa has)

You can see how dark green the Alice is in the center plot...it's amazing stuff and the deer hammer it daily.

Having said all that...we're always looking for something as good or better which is why I have planted Durana and all the commercial mixes.

If any of you have pics of your clover regardless of where the seed came from, please share it with us in this thread.

Alice is only one very dependable white clover but there are others as well.

The test plots I planted last year were also on very poor soil and Alice, Kopu 2 and Durana were the only survivors which surprised me and dissapointed me.

If you have good fertile soil with plenty of moisture they will all do well but if it's on the "not so good" side, give Alice a try. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

I have a 1 acre plot, it's the only one of mine I didn't get soil samples. I will after this season. BUT, for the mean time, I am "sure" it needs some fertilizer. I just want it to be healthy and fertilize it before deer season, maybe mid august or something.
I am going to try and find some "P&K" or something like 6-24-24. I looked at Menards tonight and found nothing. I might check A&K seed by my land and see if they have it.

QUESTION, do you think 200 lbs of it per acre would be resonable on a guess? When would you recommend spreading? If you have any suggestions on where to find it now OR at the best price, please let me know. I have some other plots that I do have soil samples for that need it as well.

*I took lots of pictures of my different plots if you'd like to see them /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> do you think 200 lbs of it per acre would be resonable on a guess </div></div>

That's a good figure to start with Skip, if possible try to spread ahead of a rain and maybe right after clipping it.

Golden Furrow (http://www.goldenfurrow.com/) would be a place to check for fertilizer in our area but I have no idea if the have it in bags or just bulk (let us know if you call them)

Agency, Fairfield, Eldon, Keo...would all be within reach but give em a call first and see what they have. They can mix anything but small amounts might be easier in bags. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

Here's some pics of a couple plots, all started and planted this spring, one plot had a bit of grass problems you'll see in pics, not as bad as I had thought. Never posted pics before so I'll try this here...
http://www.thedeerhunt.com/FoodPlot4.JPG
http://www.thedeerhunt.com/FoodPlot1.JPG
http://www.thedeerhunt.com/FoodPlot2.JPG
http://www.thedeerhunt.com/FoodPlot3.JPG

[dbltree]

Those clover plots look awesome Skip!!

You'll have to beat em back with a stick this fall! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

I want to eat some of that clover Skip! Lookin' good!

[Sligh1]

Found some fertilizer today for a plot I need some P&K for, Golden Furrow had 6-26-26 for $20 for 50 lbs bags. Now, much of it's Alice clover that doesn't look like it needs a darn thing, and we are talking I planted it on the worst ground you could imagine- no lime and no fertilizer ever and it's rough pasture ground but looking astounding. I guess i'll still give er a hit of 200 lbs of goodness.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Golden Furrow had 6-26-26 for $20 for 50 lbs bags. </div></div>
Dang...practically giving it away! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Alice white clover can survive on a little so if you feed it...get ready to mow again...and again! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

I'm going to be posting results of Select grass herbicide on alfalfa, clover, soybeans, field peas, brassicas and even my wife's flowers...so get used to it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

This is Alice White Clover before spraying with Select

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grassinclover-2.jpg

and this is 2 weeks later

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grassfreealiceclover.jpg

I'm impressed! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I would add that there is NO evidence of dead grass or anything at this point. The clover and alfalfa just fill in and look like it was always "perfect"!

Ok...so ya'll know I love my wife...and so I said "honey...I'll pull the grass in your flowers...so you just relax and sip some lemonade" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Now keep in mind that if this would have backfired...you'd find out just how much my wife loved ME!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Whew! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SelectonFlowers2.jpg

Nothing to do with clover of course but much easier to see the dead grass in this pics.

Dang..I still gotta pull the broadleaf weeds though... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SelectonFlowers.jpg

Sprayed Select on the maters, pumpkins, peppers, cukes and melons too!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Selectonmaters.jpg

Heck I'm a dagum "weedin" machine and the worlds best hubby! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Anyway...you can see I have confidence that this post selective grass herbicde is pretty safe to spray on most any broadleaf type plants. That being said I'd like to try it on and maybe over some trees to test it also.

On Clover 6-8 ounces along with 1% crop oil will do the trick. I used my 2 1/2 gallon Solo backpack sprayer which will do roughly an acre and mixed 10 ounces and it worked like a charm!

Now...if I could just figure out how to get out of vacuuming... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[dbltree]

Previously I posted results of using Select grass herbicide and I still get a kick out looking over areas that I sprayed compared to unsprayed.

New spring seedings can easily turn into a sea of foxtail even when using oats for a nurse crop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Seaoffoxtail-2.jpg

You can see in this pic where I sprayed a strip after spraying the entire back portion of this field. Since then I have sprayed the rest of it but it does show pretty dramtic results.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Strips-1.jpg

My clover and oats are full of deer beds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Bedsintheclover.jpg

The oats have dried down now and looking back through my posts, one can see how planting oats to early this time of year will leave them to mature for a fall attractant.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnClover-1.jpg

This spot was devoid of oats for some reason and it's interesting how the deer have grazed it hard to avoid the oat stems poking them in the eyes!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nooats.jpg

Closeup of the Alice/Kopu2/Jumbo Ladino clover mix from Welter Seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AlicenKopu27-24.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WelterClovermix-2.jpg

I clipped a couple strips through some of it earlier and you can see without spraying the foxtail comes up right away, the foxtail however won't be a problem next year.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clippedclover-1.jpg

They are really feeding heavily on the tender new clover this time of year.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grazedclover.jpg

This is some mostly straight Berseem Clover (annual clover) This clover is awesome if you need some quick inexpensive clover or cover crop to plant in the spring.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Thickstuff-2.jpg

This is a great time of year to seed white/ladino clover with or without oats using roughly 4#'s per acre of white clover seed.

This establishment advice from Welter's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Establishment

White Clover can be used in new seedlings or to overseed existing pastures. White clovers should be seeded with a brillion seeder, no-till drill or cultipacker. White Clover can be planted in the spring or the fall. If planted in the fall, allow at least 8 weeks before the killing frost. Frost seeding also works well, especially if the animals are allowed to hoof it into the existing pasture.

Seed to soil contact is vital to having a successful stand. It should be planted at the recommended rate of up to 30% with grasses-(it is advised not to exceed the 30% of a forage mix to prevent the possibility of bloat).

White clovers grow best on well-drained, fertile, loamy or clay soils of pH 6-7 that are well supplied with minerals and moisture.

*** My own tip is to till, roll/pack the soil, broadcast seed, roll to cover.***


Management

White clover does well on most soil types, however pH of the soil is rather important. The pH should be at least 6.0. Adequate levels of calcium, phosphorus and potash are also very important. If a ruminant eats too much white clover, there is a chance of bloat. In order to prevent bloat, a maximum of 40% white clover in a pasture should be respected. If the animals are fed other non-bloating forages (e.g. hay, corn, cornsilage) besides the clover, the risk of bloating significantly decreases. Most accidents occur with the following herds: heifers, dry cows or sheep that don't get other forages besides grass and white clover.

*** Deer have plenty of other forage so bloat problems aren't likely as they would be with livestock ***

It is important to keep your pasture grazed or clipped during maximum grass growth. By reducing grass growth, you reduce the shade that the white clover will receive. Maintain a pasture height of 3-9".

Graze or cut pastures short in the fall to allow vigorous regrowth of clover, thus favoring rooting of stolons.

</div></div>


White clover offers some many options as far as establishment no matter if one has a garden size plot of several acres and I have never seen a deer pass thru some whit clover without stopping to taste this tender legume. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

If I tilled and rolled this past Sunday and had a large amount of rain on Sunday night and today, would it be OK to spread clover tomorrow and roll it to plant even though we tilled/rolled 3 days ago. I would think that seed/soil contact would be good after preparing the soil days ago and with the heavy rain. Would alfalfa work the same way?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I tilled and rolled this past Sunday and had a large amount of rain on Sunday night and today, would it be OK to spread clover tomorrow and roll it to plant even though we tilled/rolled 3 days ago. I would think that seed/soil contact would be good after preparing the soil days ago and with the heavy rain. Would alfalfa work the same way? </div></div>

I can't say I have ever tried it but if the topsoil dries out you could broadcast and re-roll more seed in. You only need to just press clover or alfalfa seed into the soil.

Just don't try if the soil is still wet or you will turn into a compacted piece of "cement"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

[huntyak]

I went to buy Volunteer today and my friend at the elevator said to just mow once more and not spray..getting late and frost seeding next year will help push the weeds out through competition.Helped me save about $130 bucks but if it doesn't matter to just mow once more and frost seed I'd rather save the $$ /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Any Thoughts?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went to buy Volunteer today and my friend at the elevator said to just mow once more and not spray..getting late and frost seeding next year will help push the weeds out through competition.Helped me save about $130 bucks but if it doesn't matter to just mow once more and frost seed I'd rather save the $$ /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Any Thoughts? </div></div>

That depends entirely on the "weeds", if they are all annuals he is most likely right. Just clip them off and don't worry about it but if they are grasses they will only get worse.

Time will tell... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[ajadams]

In one of my clover plots, some of the leaves on the clover is starting to get a red/brown tint to them. Some of it is newly frost seeded from last winter and some is 3 years old. It is all Ladino. Any idea what thats from. The older stuff isn't nearly as tall as previous years, only mowed it once this year because there were a few weeds showing up.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ajadams</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In one of my clover plots, some of the leaves on the clover is starting to get a red/brown tint to them. Some of it is newly frost seeded from last winter and some is 3 years old. It is all Ladino. Any idea what thats from. The older stuff isn't nearly as tall as previous years, only mowed it once this year because there were a few weeds showing up. </div></div>

It's possible there are some mineral deficiencies causing the discoloration although sometimes extreme heat or to little/too much water can cause some minor problems.

Check out this link and then you might consider a soil test to check for any "missing links" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Mineral Deficiencies in Clover (http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/min-def/clover.htm)

Pests could be another problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Diseases and Insect Pests

White clovers are susceptible to stolon and root rots, both of which can seriously deplete stands. These diseases are more likely to be a problem on less well drained sites. Tolerance to these diseases can be increased by selecting clover varieties that are adapted to the area where they are to be grown. Good management practices that help maintain the vigor of the plant also help increase resistance to these diseases and other stresses.

Potato leafhopper feeding on white clover causes stunting and a reddening-bronzing and browning of the leaves. Spittle bugs can stunt plants and cause a rosetting of the terminal growth. Insects are not likely to cause enough damage to white clover in Kentucky to warrant the use of insecticides

****
</div></div>

**** Growing White Clover in Kentucky (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr93/agr93.htm)

[Sligh1]

When trying to create a "BLEND" of clovers (let's forget alf-alfa, chicory, etc for this question) do you see a big benefit with including many varieties of WHITES, let's say Ladino, Alice, Durana, Kopu II COMPARED with just one variety?

Basically, are we just "splitting hairs" here if we did a WHITE CLOVER blend compared with a one-variety white plot OR do you feel from experience and "your gut" that a variety of whites is better than a solid patch of one type of white? Hopefully that's clear enough for what I am trying to ask!?! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

*Side note- I think sometimes, for the sake of "VARIETY" - I have put in inferior seed and less desirable forage just so I feel like I've given them a buffet in one plot.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you see a big benefit with including many varieties of WHITES, let's say Ladino, Alice, Durana, Kopu II COMPARED with just one variety </div></div>

I have pure plots of Alice and Durana and mixed plots of Alice, Kopu II and Jumbo Ladino and I can tell you this...the deer could care less. They graze them all equally based on forage height and visually watching the deer move from plot to plot.

So why use a mix? I do it sometimes just to safe guard against failure by one or more seed types but in all honesty Alice has never ever failed.

It's one of those things that I do more for the fun of mixing things up then any real need for it. Brassicas are the same thing...one really doesn't need a 1/2 dozen varieties. A good forage rape and a good forage turnip would do the trick.

No harm in the mixes but no great advantage either Skip /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

We've dsicussed the merits of mowing our clover or alfalfa, allowing the grasses to start to regrow before spraying them with Select...but what happens if you spray older brome grass?

It dies... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SelectKilledSod.jpg

Not the most sure method but I wanted to try it just to see what would happen. Sure enough it killed it dead as can be. Not suggesting to spray mature grasses but rather just showing off the effectiveness of Select grass herbicide.

This pic is just another plot of clover where I did a portion of it...the line is clearly visable.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Sprayedvsnot.jpg

Good stuff!

The Alice/Kopu II/Jumbo Ladino mix I planted this spring is looking great.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WeltersClover8-01-08.jpg

I'll clip it one more time late this month and then leave it for the deer to do the "clipping"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

[Casper16k]

Quick Question. I have my clover plot prepped and ready to be planted. Its about 100 ft x 35ft. I bought some Imperial Whitetail Clover for it and my question is, we are suppose to have scattered t-storms this Tuesday and isolated t-storms on friday. But there isn't anything else in the forecast for the next 10 days. Should I plant tomorrow night or wait till we are suppose to have rain in consecutive days? Our opening day is Sept 13. Thanks in advance.

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casper16k</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick Question. I have my clover plot prepped and ready to be planted. Its about 100 ft x 35ft. I bought some Imperial Whitetail Clover for it and my question is, we are suppose to have scattered t-storms this Tuesday and isolated t-storms on friday. But there isn't anything else in the forecast for the next 10 days. Should I plant tomorrow night or wait till we are suppose to have rain in consecutive days? Our opening day is Sept 13. Thanks in advance. </div></div>

I would go ahead and get it planted and take advantage of moisture that's coming up. If you wait to long..it might be to late.

Hopefully you'll get a rain every week or so to keep it growing. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

If one had the intention of having a great clover stand inside the timber next spring, then from this clover thread it seems that planting brassicas this fall with clover WOULD NOT be ideal as it need to be tilled his spring. Therefore, would one suggest clover with wheat and rye rather than brassicas and is rye able to grow as well in a more shaded area with clover than another option?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If one had the intention of having a great clover stand inside the timber next spring, then from this clover thread it seems that planting brassicas this fall with clover WOULD NOT be ideal as it need to be tilled his spring. Therefore, would one suggest clover with wheat and rye rather than brassicas and is rye able to grow as well in a more shaded area with clover than another option? </div></div>

You are correct...if you want a good stand of white clover that you intend to mow, spray and maintain...then do not plant it with brassicas. If deer don't touch the brassicas it may not be a problem however if they decide to "root" them up late in the season...your new clover may get uprooted as well.

Rye is easier to work with and as the pictures show despite it's tall stature, it breaks down easily and safely allows the clover to survive and then thrive.

Rye is fairly adaptable to light shade but most "crops" we grow for deer do not thrive in shady areas. Clover and rye both need fairly good amounts of sun to do well and amounts of shade vary widely. I do plant rye in a fairly small shaded spot and it does survive but nothing like the open areas.

I would add that brassicas planted in the same spot failed miserably. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[huntyak]

Thanks Paul!

[Sligh1]

TO MOW or NOT TO MOW?!?!?
I mowed my clover about 2 weeks ago, not really low. Now it hasn't grown a ton AND it's about 10-12" tall. I was either going to mow it this weekend or next OR not mow it at all. The reason I WOULD mow it is to get tender growth. The reason I wouldn't is if you don't think it'd make much difference?!!??! THANKS!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TO MOW or NOT TO MOW?!?!? </div></div>

I wouldn't mow until we start getting some good rains Skip...clover doesn't like dry weather and were getting a little dry right now.

If we get some good rains this weekend or the forecast is calling for moisture next week then clipping would be ok...otherwise I would wait.

I'm not sure clipping will make white clover that much more tender...red clover is another story, but I tend to think along those lines. I really don't think the deer give a rip...they're not as fussy and finicky as we make them out to be... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Sligh1]

So yes, it's white clover, you think I'd be ok if I let it go and not mow it if I understand you right? I'll take it that it's tender enough as it is and isn't going to make much difference to mow. Thanks much!!!!

[huntyak]

I have let mine go as well with the dry weather and all is OK as I sprayed Volunteer (generic Select) on the grass about 2 weeks ago and although dead seem to be acting as shade for my clover. I didn't cut before spraying but still killed it dead. We do have one field that is 100% flowered and appears to have black heads. Even this mature..ok to let go without clipping? Year in year out when is the last time you all feel safe mowing your white clove if at all?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Year in year out when is the last time you all feel safe mowing your white clover if at all?
</div></div>

Established white clover most likely could be mowed late into the fall but red clover shouldn't be mowed within 45 days of a freeze.

I just shoot for late August/early September to allow for growth before season starts. White clover is pretty attractive and tender mowed or not.

I'm just going to clip mine so ALL the deer will be in MY clover rather then Skips... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

My Alice/KopuII/Jumbo Ladino clover mix spring seeded looks awesome! I've had other clover mixes that didn't amount to anything until the second year so I don't know what else a guy could hope for that's not in this mix from Welters...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WelterMix2-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WelterMix1.jpg

Look at the leaves on this stuff! Lots of nipped stems so I guess deer like this "off brand" stuff... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/NippedClover-1.jpg

[Casper16k]

I planted it when I said I was going to. My plot has clover covering the entire thing but they are all small. Its been like this for about a week. It just isnt growing tall and we havent had much rain. Would it help to put some fertilizer on it to help it out or should I just let it go?

[huntyak]

When did you plant it?

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casper16k</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I planted it when I said I was going to. My plot has clover covering the entire thing but they are all small. Its been like this for about a week. It just isnt growing tall and we havent had much rain. Would it help to put some fertilizer on it to help it out or should I just let it go? </div></div>

Clover grows slowly the first year and even more so this time of year. Clover is a cool season plant that also thrives on moisture so give it time and hopefully cool fall weather will get it growing.

Even mature clover slows down in mid summer when things get hot and dry. Fertilizer won't hurt it but I suspect it needs water a whole lot more then food right now. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[dbltree]

My plans of haying my clover and alfalfa plots were scuttled by a Judge in Seattle sometime back (dang yuppies anyhow... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif )

So I had to go ahead and mow including some I hadn't sprayed with Select that had foxtail 3 feet high... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Got out the big guns...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brushcutter.jpg

and clipped it perhaps 8-10" or so...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ClippedClover-3.jpg

The Alice clover spring planting was thick and lush but starting to flower...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26Clover.jpg

Do you know that clover no longer fixes nitrogen once it flowers? Just another reason to clip it every so often, especially if it's Berseem plowdown clover...

My Berseem has been outstanding!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26Berseem.jpg

Had I known I would not be able to mow and bale this I would have sprayed it all and clipped earlier because this is what happens...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Mowings.jpg

Always a chance of some smothering if you let it get to tall before mowing.

On another note...

Reading back thru this thread you can see that I planted test plantings of Alice, Durana, KopuII,Jumbo Ladino, Imperial Clover Mix, and clover mixes by Biologic and Tecomate.

All of the name brand clovers failed with the exception of a couple very small spots where they had more moisture.

The Durana and Alice and other Welter varieties were unphazed and performed admirably!

You can take what you will from that "test"...but it didn't allow me to compare growing stands, deer usage etc. so I'm going to try some new plots always using Alice as the standard.

As always I want to stress that most seeds you purchase are fine quality seeds that will all produce well...it's the price that differs widely.

I planted side by side plots of Alice, WI Imperial clover, IC with chicory, IC with brassicas and Alfarack...all of this sandwiched between a stand of alfalfa and a plot of mature Alice clover.

I fertilized these plots heavily and I can moniter them with trail cams.

Perhaps in the spring I'll try some of the other brands again as well. So far Alice white clover and Durana white clover have out performed all others and have worked well for plenty of other food plotters.

Both of these clovers were developed by agronimists searching for clovers that could withstand drought and heavy grazing by cattle. There are always some who insist that "brand" companies have developed clover specifically for deer...which means what????

White clover is a high protein legume that has high TDN and CP no matter if a deer eats it or a cow. Believe what you will but NO ONE has any proof that ANY clover is better then Alice (for example) Do they think that a certain clover will grow bigger bucks, attract more deer, insure them a trophy compared to Alice, Durana, Patriot and others?????

Many companies compare there own white clover to other types of clovers (such as red clover) and not apples to apples.

Planting any one variety of clover (or any other seed) proves only that deer either like it or they don't...not that one is better then another.

So far I have found no difference in usage by deer regardless of which variety I planted. The only difference is in my costs of plantings. Remember when you buy a pure clover seed...you pay for pure clover seed!

Alice is roughly $4.50, Durana varies but some have found it as low as $3.50 a pound. Imperial Whitetail clover contains a very high percentage of berseem clover which is dirt cheap, you can't frost seed it and it lasts only one year. I love berseem clover but not at exorbitant prices!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

If I want berseem in my mix I can buy it for $1.65 a pound bringing my costs per acre to roughly $20 versus $75 plus shipping for Imperial clover from WI.

We just had some good rains on these newly planted plots so I'll keep you updated as to how they do and usage by deer. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[risto2351]

Here is my clover and chicory from this past weekend in one of my two plots.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05895.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05896.jpg

I could not cut it all summer due to it being in my buddy's CRP.
I sprayed it with some Select from Nanny in the middle of July.
I then cut it two weeks ago.
I notice it is heading out should I cut it again or will it be okay for this fall?

[huntyak]

I think the whites are OK to leave alone at this point and with the cooler weather I wouldn't cut this far into September. Just my thoughts but see what DT or Ghost has to to say. Look great by the way!

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice it is heading out should I cut it again or will it be okay for this fall? </div></div>

It should be fine but I'm going to clip the tops off of one clover plot and compare it to one cut earlier.

Will it affect usage or the plants themselves?

I'll let you know.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

[Ghost]

I like to let it go after about the 3rd week of August. Growth really slows down with the cooler weather and I want it as thick as it can be going into Winter.

[Limb Chicken]

Here is some HS premium clover blend I put in spring 07. I was wanting to get it started but now I fully understand the reason for planting in the fall. This doesn't look bad but I have worked it pretty hard to get it to look decent. I still need to take some select to it but overall I am ok with it. Picture was take last weekend. This is half of a 5 acre plot. The other 2.5 to 3 looks similar but has some grass as well.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3006/cloverspring07.jpg

[risto2351]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I like to let it go after about the 3rd week of August. Growth really slows down with the cooler weather and I want it as thick as it can be going into Winter.

</div></div>

Perfect.
I was reading your mind Ghostie. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I did not know if it would get rank or not. I wanted it as palatable as possible.

Thanks for the info.

[risto2351]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice it is heading out should I cut it again or will it be okay for this fall? </div></div>

It should be fine but I'm going to clip the tops off of one clover plot and compare it to one cut earlier.

Will it affect usage or the plants themselves?

I'll let you know.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

/forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[risto2351]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Limb Chicken</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is some HS premium clover blend I put in spring 07. I was wanting to get it started but now I fully understand the reason for planting in the fall. This doesn't look bad but I have worked it pretty hard to get it to look decent. I still need to take some select to it but overall I am ok with it. Picture was take last weekend. This is half of a 5 acre plot. The other 2.5 to 3 looks similar but has some grass as well.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3006/cloverspring07.jpg </div></div>

Limb,
I used to plant all the time in the spring until Dbl. showed me the light. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I hated fighting all the weeds until I started doing it all mostly in the fall.

Nice looking plot you have there.

[Limb Chicken]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to plant all the time in the spring until Dbl. showed me the light. </div></div>

Yep, I don't care what they say about him downtown, he's alright! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif