Cereal Grains and cover crops

[ksbooner]

Turkeyriver,

I did get the rolling basket in the implement I posted. Does a great job of leveling and breaking up the clods. Very good food plot tool.

Paul......great info on the rye. You have made me a believer and I have planted it every year......

thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dbltree]

June 12th, 2011

I clipped some winter rye and red clover stands about 10 days ago....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG2915.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG2916.jpg

You can see the rye is easily clipped off at this stage and will not attempt to re-grow

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG2917.jpg

The only drawback to late May/early June mowing is that does tend to hide fawns in it and you run the risk of killing a fawn at that time. So the other option is of course to just leave it standing....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5083.jpg

In this case the white and red clovers are lush and healthy growing well under the winter rye that towers above

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5085.jpg

In this strip plot I clipped the rye/clover strip in the foreground but the clover does not look one bit better then where the rye is standing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5101.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5108.jpg

This strip of rye and clover will be left standing for now

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5110.jpg

and clipped later to promote clover growth and continued N fixation

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5109.jpg

then tilled under for brassicas in July

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5111.jpg

The winter rye/oats/peas/radish/red clover combination is perfect for those who cannot make multiple trips to their property each year. It can be planted in late August to early September and then if need be...not touched again until it's turned under to repeat the process the following fall.

In my case I use it with a brassica rotation but even then as you can see clipping is optional and if weather or work get in that way...no worries...it will be providing great cover and high quality food sources all summer long.... :way:

[dbltree]

June 22nd, 2011

Our fall cereal plantings are months away but just a reminder to remember to add clover to your fall planting. If you are wise and intend to rotate the planting to another crop such as brassicas, either an inexpensive white clover or a mammoth red clover will work for all those except extremely dry sandy soils or those in the drought stricken parts of the south.

If you plan to follow the winter rye with an early spring crop such as corn or sugar beets, then annual crimson clover might be best. Crimson grows extremely fast in the spring...perfect for a mid spring plow down. If however you intend to follow the rye with a mid summer brassica planting or even a repeat of the rye combination....then white or red clover is a better option. Crimson grows fast, matures, goes to seed and then is generally kaput, while the mammoth red clover will continue to grow, providing lush high quality summer feed , fixing nitrogen and tons of biomass!

Here's an example of mixed white and red clovers after I clipped the rye off a few weeks back...beautiful!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG3032.jpg

The clovers are growing like mad and deer are wading knee deep in it! Note the rye stubble and straw now barely visible through the thick clovers.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG3033.jpg

These clovers will be tilled under for brassicas in mid July and adding all of that biomass to the soil will improve it immensely! The killed legumes will slowly release nitrogen as they decompose, providing at least a portion of the nitrogen the brassicas hunger for.

Add clovers to your fall cereal planting and you'll be insured of holding deer not only fall and winter, but spring and summer as well... :way:

[whitetail fanatic]

Paul, does crimson clover survive the winter in southern Wisconsin if I plant it in the fall? If so, I might add that to my rye/radish planting, which would be plowed under the following May to plant corn. Assuming the crimson clover would survive our winters, would it be taller/thicker by early May than something like the Mammoth red clover? I guess I always thought crimson would not survive our winters since it was an 'annual' clover, but by your last post, it sounds like it would survive the winter. Berseem clover, of course, would not survive freezing temps would it?

thanks!

[Sligh1]

Paul, does crimson clover survive the winter in southern Wisconsin if I plant it in the fall? If so, I might add that to my rye/radish planting, which would be plowed under the following May to plant corn. Assuming the crimson clover would survive our winters, would it be taller/thicker by early May than something like the Mammoth red clover? I guess I always thought crimson would not survive our winters since it was an 'annual' clover, but by your last post, it sounds like it would survive the winter. Berseem clover, of course, would not survive freezing temps would it?

thanks!

I'll let Dbltree fire back on that one BUT... I bought a new farm that had Crimson planted last year... About 1 month ago it was full flowers and looked like great healthy clover- even though it's an annual- made it from last year through our really cold winters here in IA and was going strong this spring. I'm doing something else with the area now BUT it looked really nice as of a month ago.

[dbltree]

Paul, does crimson clover survive the winter in southern Wisconsin if I plant it in the fall? If so, I might add that to my rye/radish planting, which would be plowed under the following May to plant corn. Assuming the crimson clover would survive our winters, would it be taller/thicker by early May than something like the Mammoth red clover? I guess I always thought crimson would not survive our winters since it was an 'annual' clover, but by your last post, it sounds like it would survive the winter. Berseem clover, of course, would not survive freezing temps would it?

thanks!

I believe several people from WI are having success with crimson surviving the winter when fall planted. I would give it a try Wes....;)

[KSQ2]

Dbltree, does Welters sell red clover in bulk, or just 50 lb. bags? Which red would you recommend for fall planting with rye? I'll be tilling it next late summer for brassica planting. And I'll only be planting about a 1/3 acre. Does the red fix more nitrogen then Alice? If not, what's the advantage of red over white?

[dbltree]

Dbltree, does Welters sell red clover in bulk, or just 50 lb. bags? Which red would you recommend for fall planting with rye? I'll be tilling it next late summer for brassica planting. And I'll only be planting about a 1/3 acre. Does the red fix more nitrogen then Alice? If not, what's the advantage of red over white?

Welters sells all of their clover, alfalfa, brassica and other such small seed by the pound even if it isn't listed that way.

I use Alta-Swede mammoth red clover Alta-Swede Red clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

It's inexpensive and perfect for a plow down clover the following year and deer really hammer the stuff.

It's not better then white,, white can fix more N per acre but white clovers generally are a little more expensive so i usually add white clover when I want that plot or strip to be in perennial clover. Either white or red will work great to add with rye in the fall, both will feed deer and provide a source of nitrogen when killed and turned under the following year.

No right or wrong....just add the clover of your choice with your fall cereal grains...you'll be glad you did....:way:

[Darron]

When mixing red and white clovers, how many pounds of each do you use per acre? From my understanding, one should plant clover at around 6-8# per acre. Therefore, do you go heavier on the white than reds when mixing the two together?

For example

5# of alice or other white clover
3# of mammoth red?

[dbltree]

When mixing red and white clovers, how many pounds of each do you use per acre? From my understanding, one should plant clover at around 6-8# per acre. Therefore, do you go heavier on the white than reds when mixing the two together?

For example

5# of alice or other white clover
3# of mammoth red?

If the intent is to leave it in white clover for 3-4 years then I plant 5-6#'s of white and 5-6#'s of mammoth red clover. The red will not last more then a year at best unless you plant the more expensive red clovers that will last 2-3 years.

I usually don't mix them much anymore....red for plow down, white for perennial clover plot but mixing them up won't hurt a thing either...;)

[dbltree]

It's almost time to till under the red clover we planted last fall with winter rye to plant brassicas as part of our ongoing crop rotations. Farmers across the country have been taking advantage of the benefits of adding red clovers to cereal grain crops like wheat and triticale harvested for grain, for some time now. They often fly red clover seed into standing soybeans or frost seed it into winter cereals but for whitetails we can add it at planting time in late August.

Now...by early July the red clover is nearly knee high and keeping our deer happy!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/IMG_5210.jpg

So what now? How best to take advantage of the tons of biomass and 100+ pounds of nitrogen that red clover can add to our soils? There are options for everyone regardless of equipment or lack of it with some providing slightly more benefits then others.

Farming crop systems are slightly different then ours of course because crops are harvested, combined, baled or grazed so agricultural links on this subject have great information, all of which however is not applicable to food plot/whitetail management situations.

The quote below holds some valuable information and comes from this ISU publication:

Cereal Grains and red Clover (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/PM2025.pdf)


There are many options for managing red clover as a
green manure crop, including tillage and chemical control
in both fall and spring.

Plowing red clover provides about
two times more nitrogen to a subsequent corn crop as
chemical control.

Zone tillage of clay loam soil following
red clover has produced corn yields similar to conventional
tillage. The high nitrogen content of red clover residue
accelerates the decomposition of cereal crop residue.

There are several advantages associated with autumn
chemical kill of red clover before planting no-tillage corn,
including earlier planting dates, warmer soil conditions,
reduced risk of dry seedbed conditions, and reduced
likelihood of clover competition with early corn growth.

Red clover residues decompose rapidly after spring kill
with half of the nitrogen released within 4 weeks after
burial and very little nitrogen released after 10 weeks.
When red clover is killed before planting, nitrogen is
released from residue in synchrony with the nitrogen
uptake pattern of corn.

Delaying kill of red clover from
fall until spring does not increase nitrogen availability.
Killing red clover in the fall or early spring can be effective
for limiting soil water loss without sacrificing benefits to a
subsequent crop.

Two key elements to consider here are that tiling the red clover under will in the end provide more nitrogen for your brassicas then chemically killing it and no-tilling into it. Looking at the time frame in which nitrogen is released from the rapidly decomposing clover we see that it is perfect for short season brassicas! If we plant 60-90 season brassicas the 10 week time frame is ideal to help provide at least a portion of the nitrogen our brassicas will require.

By this time the rye will be starting to mature and dry down (turn brown) if it was left standing and regardless if mowed or plowed under the decomposing root systems will also release scavenged nutrients for the following crop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Alfalfa/IMG_5209.jpg

Rye and red clover (http://bayfield.uwex.edu/files/2010/11/Research-Bulletin-6_winter-rye.pdf)

Lacking a plot many small plotters will find that they will need to mow the clover and rye to chop/shred it to a manageable height and then you have the option of no-tilling brassica seed into the stand and killing the clover with 2 quarts of glyphosate or discing/tilling it under to conventionally plant your brassica seed.

It is not necessary to completely turn under all of the clover/rye to have a successful brassica planting, doing so however does increase the available N as we see in the above quote. The ability of the soil to hold nitrogen is of course another factor in all of this so increasing the organic matter is extremely important and work towards that end every time we incorporate crops like clover and rye back into the soil.

Higher OM content also increases the ability of the soil to hold water and nutrients , versus very sandy soils for instance that allow rapid leaching of both water and nutrients. That being said, each of us has different soils so the need for additional nitrogen will vary widely...those with deep, rich black loam soils will probably get by with less then those with coarse sandy soils for instance.

Those of you who can see the value in planting multiple crops within each field and then rotating those crops yearly will want to experiment with additional nitrogen applications. I prefer to till in urea at planting rather then take a chance on catching a rain to incorporate it later so you may try marking off areas and applying urea at different rates to check the brassica response. What you learn may yield answers for future plantings on that soil type. If the ares you apply lower rares appear to suffer compared to the higher rates you can always broadcast additional urea on later (just time it within 24 hours of a good rain!)

If you are following white or red clover with brassicas this year...try varying rates of added nitrogen and then share the results so that others can learn as well.... :way:

[dbltree]

July 7th,2011

Here is a field that was in rye and crimson clover last fall and mowed in early June...nothing but weeds now

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG3197.jpg

The crimson being an annual died out when it went to seed and there is nothing there to prevent weeds from returning

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/CIMG3196.jpg

Compared to those places where re and/or white clovers were planted with the rye in the fall

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5110.jpg

While even a good crop of weeds can add organic matter to the soil when tilled under, it pales in comparison to tilling under 2 1/2 tons of biomass from red clover and 130#'s of nitrogen as the legumes decompose nor are deer interested in feeding vigorously on the weed.

Use oats and crimson or berseem in the spring to follow brassicas or crimson in the fall if you plan to till it under in early spring, otherwise add perennial clovers to you fall mix to insure you'll have an attractive summer long food source...minus the weeds! :way:

[dbltree]

July 10th, 2011

By golly you sure can grow some awesome clover by planting it in the fall with winter rye!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clover1.jpg

Red clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clover2.jpg

White clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clover3.jpg

Tall and thick!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clover4.jpg

Just right to turn under for brassicas!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tillingclover2.jpg

The rye/oats/peas/radish components kept deer fat and happy all fall, winter and into spring

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_0003-4.jpg

and then the clovers took over and kept them coming all spring and summer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinclover.jpg

Now it's come full circle and will feed the upcoming brassica crop and help build the soil with tons of awesome organic matter and nitrogen that the brassicas will use the rest of the summer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Rot4.jpg

Despite tilling under this clover, deer will still never be without feed...in this field they have soybeans and perennial white clovers to keep them coming (in the unfenced area)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Rot7.jpg

Plant multiple crop types within each plot and remember to add red clover, white clover or a combination of the two this fall with your rye, oat, pea, radish planting and you be able to keep deer coming to your plot year around....not to mention cutting your fertilizer and herbicide bills... :way:

[spltbrow]

will clover get enough growth to help if i frost seed into corn and beans and then till to plant corn and beans in spring again. I planted corn and beans into a clover/alpalpha plot htis year and it is doing great and i added no fertillizer. Some corn is already producing ears.

[dbltree]

will clover get enough growth to help if i frost seed into corn and beans and then till to plant corn and beans in spring again. I planted corn and beans into a clover/alfalfa plot this year and it is doing great and i added no fertilizer. Some corn is already producing ears.

Usually it takes nearly 6 months to get enough plant/root development to get substantial N fixation so frost seeding would mean you only have seedlings by spring.

A better option is to leave a portion of the field in clover each year, then rotate corn to the clover and establish new clover with rye each fall. You can also get away with light discing of established clover and planting corn into it. Often the clover will not die and will creep back and you can repeat the process the following year.

This option again works best if you can leave a portion standing in clover and rotate corn in and out of it allowing a portion of the clover to recover each year. :way:

[SoDakarcher]

Db/tree,

I have noticed that you use a rotary tiller a great deal. Do you have any experiences with the different makes for cat2 type tractors(40-90hp)? Do you have a favorite make or size? What depth do you typically use for dead sod going to food plots, or turning under last years clover?

Thanks for your time. Bryan

[dbltree]

Db/tree,

I have noticed that you use a rotary tiller a great deal. Do you have any experiences with the different makes for cat2 type tractors(40-90hp)? Do you have a favorite make or size? What depth do you typically use for dead sod going to food plots, or turning under last years clover?

Thanks for your time. Bryan

Here's a series of threads that might answer a few question about tillers and a lot of other equipment for that matter.

Equipment for food plots (http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=32)

The depth is probably around 4" roughly but I haven't actually measured to see? The King Kutter and Frontier models both bury 12-18" high clover or killed sod very well...:way:

[dbltree]

Leaving winter rye standing for the summer with clover growing beneath it certainly doesn't impede deer from grazing the clover!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/ZDeerinRye.jpg

There is plenty of clover only steps away yet these deer readily dive into the standing rye for the lush clover growing there!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/ZA4DeerinRye.jpg

The oats and berseem planted where brassicas had been are maturing now

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5373.jpg

Instead of leaving a dead barren spot where the dead brassicas had been, I use oats and annual clovers to provide more high quality food sources and build up the soils with a great cover crop. Th chickling vetch added to the mix is a legume like clover and fits in well to add more nitrogen to the soil when I till it under.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5376.jpg

The neat thing about this mix is that I will also have free oats when I till it under for the winter rye/oat/forage pea/forage radish/clover mix this fall!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5375.jpg

These are just common bin run oats and deer hammered them when they were young and tender and they will do so again this fall. I urge you not to be misled by big ads attempting to convince you to buy "Buck on a Bag" oats because they not only are not better, they are in fact less palatable then more commonly grown oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5374.jpg

If you decide to purchase certified seed oats, almost any will perform well but I have tested Jerry oats extensively against the highly advertised BFO oats and deer preferred the Jerry oats hands down....save your self some cabbage, avoid the hype and plant common spring oats this fall...combine with winter rye they will make an unbeatable combination... :way:

[dbltree]

I'll post this mix periodically as we approach the end of summer/early fall planting time for cereals....

I mix the following:

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (4010 or 6040 field peas will work fine for 1/2 the price)
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre, white clover at 6#'s per acre or a mix of 6-8 red and 3-4 white
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant large seeds roughly 1-2" deep, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover and radish seed and re-cultipack

Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September , earlier is better when adding peas and cloverPlanting dates can be a week or so earlier in the far north but may be 2-6 weeks later depending on how far south you live.

The amounts vary widely because soils, deer densities and budgets also vary, so if you have low deer numbers, poor soils and a tight budget sow the lower rates. If the opposite is true and your budget can handle applying fertilizers to feed the higher planting rates then aim for the higher amounts.

While rye will grow on a brick, every plant in that mix will respond to optimum P&K levels and equally so to up 200#'s of urea per acre, that being said if you can apply any fertilizer at all your cereals will respond in a positive manner. Soil test as if for clover so that P&K and PH can be corrected and then add nitrogen depending on the need. If you have low deer numbers and expect light grazing, pushing growth too early may actually have a negative effect as cereals can quickly grow to a less palatable stage.

A heavy acorn crop for instance could affect usage of any other food sources so consider all the variables before deciding how much if any nitrogen to add. We have high deer densities, combined with the fact that deer have adapted to feeding in specific centralized feeding areas so we push for maximum forage production. Nitrogen will give plants a healthy green color and make them especially attractive to whitetails not to mention insuring greater root production from the radish plants.

This is an example of the above mix fertilized with 400#'s of 6-28-28 and 200#'s of urea...not the beautiful lush green colors of healthy plants!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_0010-2.jpg

and the stockpiled forage kept them coming literally all winter long!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/B2.jpg

This pic is an example of a "mini" strip plot where last year the center was brassicas, the foreground was the above mentioned rye mix and the back strip a perennial white clover. I tilled under the dead brassicas and planted oats and berseem that you see here in the center and clipped off the mature rye leaving only the beautiful clover behind.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/Oats1.jpg

This coming week I will till under the front strip of clover and plant brassicas and in late August I will mow the oats to shred and scatter the oat seed and then till it under for the above mentioned mix. Even the smallest area then can provide high quality food sources year around! Pick a month...any month...and you will find something here still feeding whitetails. Never is it bare and deer adapt to the fact that they can count on it regardless of the time of year!

This is oats and berseem planted much later, not by choice really but because of wet weather yet we can see that staggering simple plantings like this can be very attractive in keeping deer focused on OUR plot and not the neighbors!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/Oats2.jpg

Our goal should always be to attract and hold deer year around and adapt them to coming to one place, down one or two runways so that they not only become predictable, but safely away from our neighbors.... ;)

[BBD Big Buck Down]

When is the earliest you can plant rye and oats for the fall? im going to be planting the brassicas in the next couple weeks. im guessing thats too early for rye and oats?

[dbltree]

When is the earliest you can plant rye and oats for the fall? im going to be planting the brassicas in the next couple weeks. im guessing thats too early for rye and oats?

Here in Iowa the 3rd week in August is kind of pushing it and I prefer to plant the last week of August into the first week of September. Too much earlier and the cereals will get too mature and less palatable as they get stemmy.

Mid July through early August plant brassicas and then late August start the cereal plantings :way:

[dbltree]

A friend of mine called me from a field he planted to rye/oats/peas/radish and...NOT clover and said "I see why you add clover now...this place is just a mass of weeds!" He assured me he wouldn't make that mistake again!

ALL of my rye combination plantings include clovers, often a mix of white and red because the white clover that was there when I tilled it under...came back along with the red I planted. In mid to late July much of the still standing winter rye has matured and is literally "fading away" into the lush clovers.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cloverandrye7-18.jpg

Last years rye/clover plantings are this years brassicas plantings and vice versa....so I am tilling under the rye straw and clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilling7-18.jpg

and adding urea, 6-28-28 and pellet lime to the rich organic matter...chopped straw and nitrogen rich clovers...hard to find a much better soil builder!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Organicmatter1.jpg

I tilled in the lime and fertilizer and I am ready to plant!


http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Organicmatter2.jpg

No mass of weeds, no bare soils all spring and summer...instead I kept my deer fed and coming to that spot and now I am improving these poor clay soils each year as I turn under the nutrient rich rye and clover. The turnips, rape and forage radish that follow will further mine subsoil nutrients and the Groundhog radish will loosen hardpan soils as their deep tap roots decompose, leaving channels for water to freeze and thaw...pulverizing hard soils.

Note in the picture above there is still white clover in one strip and oats and berseem in the other strip...so deer are still never without a source of food. Grow something far more useful then weeds this year and add clover to your cereal planting but remember...it's far to early to plant cereals!! Wait til late August or later depending on your area.... ;)

[WhitetailWarrior]

I have about 5 acres of established clover plots that I have planted the last 2 falls. Can I no-till drill the rye/oat/pea/radish mix into the clover stand with any success? All of my other plots are in soybeans and will be in turnips so I don't have "room" for this mix without tilling in some of this clover or drilling into it. I am just looking for a way to get this mix on the farm but wanted to see if it would be successful without tilling in a good stand of clover. Thanks for the help...

[dbltree]

I have about 5 acres of established clover plots that I have planted the last 2 falls. Can I no-till drill the rye/oat/pea/radish mix into the clover stand with any success? All of my other plots are in soybeans and will be in turnips so I don't have "room" for this mix without tilling in some of this clover or drilling into it. I am just looking for a way to get this mix on the farm but wanted to see if it would be successful without tilling in a good stand of clover. Thanks for the help...


if you mow the clover very close or set it back with a pint of glyphosate...it might work but often the clover is to dominate and over powers the other plants.

if you try it, let us know how it works out for you?

[WhitetailWarrior]

I will definately let you know if it works or not. Gonna give it a shot.

[dbltree]

I one farm on which I help manage the habitat, we converted 2 old pastures into food plots and we are going on 4 years now of a brassica and winter rye/oat/pea/radish and red clover rotation thru the use of strip plots. The difference in soil tilth is amazing after turning under the rye straw and lush knee high red clover for a number of years. The hard clay subsoil that had been trampled for decades by cattle and leached dry of nutrients is now a beautiful, productive loamy soil!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC02413.jpg

Once so hard I could barely plow or till it, it now works up like a dream and each year the crops are better then the year before!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC02414.jpg

Regardless if you have sand or clay soils, you can improve them by turning under tons of organic matter by including clovers and/or vetches with your fall rye combination planting. In the fall it's ok to "crowd" the limits to the point of overseeding IF the right combinations are used.

Peas for instance can be sown heavily because deer will almost always rapidly graze them to the dirt, clovers and vetch will remain small during the fall but leap to life the following spring. Forage radish will mine subsoil nutrients and break up hard pan soils but won't have the competing canopy of other brassicas such as rape and turnips.

The rye and oats will usually be grazed hard and the oats will eventually freeze out leaving behind a nice killed mulch to help hold the soil and protect clover seedlings. The following spring the rye (having fed deer all winter) will help prevent tiny weed seeds from germinating and produce a beautiful root system that will release scavenged nitrogen when it decomposes.

Finally...the red clover and/or vetch will grow like wild fire in the spring, smothering weeds and fixing copious amounts of nitrogen and then add several tons of wonderful biomass to the soil when turned under, over time helping create the beautiful top soil shown in the pictures above.

This mix is what I use to attract and hold whitetails literally year around as well as build up more productive soils....

I mix the following:

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant seeds roughly 1-2" deep, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover and radish seed and re-cultipack

Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September, earlier is better when adding peas and clover

On dry sandy soils you may need to substitute the red clover with hairy vetch or mixing 10-20#'s per acre along with red clover. Crimson clover will perform better on loamy well drain soils and could also be mixed in on sandy soils but on clay soils the mix above will probably be the best bet.

In addition you'll find less weed and pest problems, lower fertilizer and herbicide bills when you incorporate the above mix into your plot rotations....;)

[dbltree]

I like to follow my previous year brassica plot with oats and annual clovers in the spring and then till that under for the rye/oats/peas combo. Normally I shred the mature oats before tilling them and get some free seed...works quite well in larger plots or fields but it turns out the turkeys kinda like some "free seed" also!

They don't bother it while it's green...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5518.jpg

but as it matures

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5517.jpg

it starts to become more like a tasty treat!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5516.jpg

and eventually they waller the whole crop to the ground and strip it clean!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/IMG_5519.jpg

No biggie of course and the straw and berseem clover will still provide a great deal of organic matter when I till it under in late August for winter rye.

We've had a 1/4" of rain in 30 days...might get some good rains and might not...making brassicas iffy at best. My corn has been decimated by deer so it's "rye to the rescue" in my neck of the woods! Winter rye can grow on some extremely droughty soils and conditions and unlike brassicas the cereals and peas can be planted 1-2" deep so they are closer to the subsoil moisture.

If the brassicas fail...I will replant with the rye combo and plant all of last years brassica plots (now in oats and berseem clover) to rye as well. Don't put all your eggs in one basket and plant multiple crops in each centralized feeding area but when all else fails...fall back on the ever dependable rye combination mix....

I mix the following:

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Use lower rates on poor soils with low deer density and higher rates on soils with good fertility and high deer density. Soil test as if for clover and add P&K and lime according to test...adding nitrogen will promote lush growth of the cereals and radish plants. 100-200 #'s of urea per acre will make a huge difference! 200-400#'s of 6-24-24 (if no soil test) will get the P&K in the ballpark.

Till soil, broadcast fertilizer, lime and large seeds (rye/oats and peas) then till in seeds roughly 1-2" deep, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover and radish seed and re-cultipack

Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September (in the Midwest), earlier is better when adding peas and clover

[dbltree]

Wheat is wonderful…when it’s on the neighbors place, cause I know I can easily coax them across the fence with this rye mix…

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeandpeas11-4.jpg

I manage the habitat on a number of farms that total well over 1500 acres now and in almost every case there is extremely stiff competition from neighboring landowners to do their best to keep deer on their property. My challenge is to create better habitat and plant the very best most attractive and palatable forages that can trump anything they throw on the table.

Wheat is one of the easiest…not even a challenge really…to over come and each one of these bucks walked thru a very secluded, well hidden, adjacent to fantastic bedding…plot of winter wheat.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/B7.jpg

So when people say they think wheat is their best cereal option….I just smile and say “good luck friend”…

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/BigBuck2.jpg

In some cases the property lines literally split a field in half, with each landowner hoping to keep the deer off their neighbor’s property. Screening comes first and then the best combination of year around food sources soon has them adapted to staying on our side.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/B4.jpg

There is no magic food source, especially when it comes to cereals but when I plant this mix in centralized feeding areas, adjacent to premium bedding cover, in a plot that is well screened and secluded….I don’t have to worry which side of the fence they’ll be on.

A few folks are always going to be stuck on wheat, and I for one…am so glad they are…;)

I mix the following:

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Use lower rates on poor soils with low deer density and higher rates on soils with good fertility and high deer density. Soil test as if for clover and add P&K and lime according to test...adding nitrogen will promote lush growth of the cereals and radish plants. 100-200 #'s of urea per acre will make a huge difference! 200-400#'s of 6-24-24 (if no soil test) will get the P&K in the ballpark.

Till soil, broadcast fertilizer, lime and large seeds (rye/oats and peas) then till in seeds roughly 1-2" deep, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover and radish seed and re-cultipack

Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September (in the Midwest), earlier is better when adding peas and clover

[SoDakarcher]

Dbltree,

I broke down and bought a new 7 ft King Kutter rotary tiller and the OMNI 8ft cultipacker. I plan on using the cultipacker as the initial step for dead sod or old clover. Would you recommend using the rotary tiller again at a lower depth to seat the oats/rye/pea sead combination before cultipacking? My other options are a ten foot double gang disc or a 7 ft aggressive toothed drag. I would then follow this with clover/cultipack and prayers.

Thanks again

[dbltree]

Would you recommend using the rotary tiller again at a lower depth to seat the oats/rye/pea sead combination before cultipacking? My other options are a ten foot double gang disc or a 7 ft aggressive toothed drag. I would then follow this with clover/cultipack and prayers. Any of those options will work but I usually till them in with the KK tiller raised slightly up so as to just stir in the seed and I pull the packer behind as I do.

The follow with small seeds and re-pack...then I thank God for blessing me with my own land to enjoy all the planting on...so I agree with your every step...:way:

[dbltree]

I count on winter rye to save the day when the chips are down and other crops have failed or been decimated by heavy grazing. More then one person has called to day "what should I do? My brassicas didn't come up, more corn has been wiped out, my beans all but gone...I need something that will attract deer this fall and winter!!"

I have endured every one of those problems more times then I care to admit and this year is no exception but winter rye along with the companion crops I plant with it at the end of August each summer have never, ever let me down! Even in good years I count on the winter rye and peas to draw deer from neighbors crops and the rye and clover improve my soils like no others so it's always a part of my habitat plan but some years...it IS my habitat plan when it comes to planting a food source where everything else has failed and hordes of hungry whitetails await...

When everything else is gone...winter rye will still keep them coming back for more

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/D4.jpg

and it won't be just the does and fawns

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/B3-1.jpg

If you are in a dry area just remember to disc or till in your large seeds (rye/oats and peas) to roughly 1-2" deep so they are firmly in the moisture zone. If you are blessed with plenty of moisture you may be able to just cultipack to cover the seeds only a 1/2" deep...shallow planted seeds will germinate faster (if there is sufficient soil moisture) but deeper planted seeds will fare better during dry times.

People often ask me..."Why is it ok to plant forage radish but not other brassicas like rape and turnips with fall cereals??" This picture is a great example! The Groundhog forage radish grows so much faster that even though planted in late August or early September it can achieve far greater growth then rape and turnips. The tops are so much more palatable that the radish plants are also far more attractive so I utilize the rape and turnips in my mid summer brassica plantings along with radish plants and then use only radish seed with my winter rye planting.... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicas/Brassica7-1.jpg

[Daver]

Paul - would drilling in rye, or your rye combo, be a better way to plant this year due to the lack of rain v. tilling, etc? (I too am in the no rain zone.:()

How would you compare drilling v. tilling in this low rain year?

[jerred44]

if I plant your rye/oats/peas/ghfr mix in the 1st part of sept, what will happen if it doesnt rain? Will the seed still make it for a few weeka with no rain, or does it need to rain in a certain amount of time, this would be in Illinois where we have not had rain since june

[dbltree]

Paul - would drilling in rye, or your rye combo, be a better way to plant this year due to the lack of rain v. tilling, etc? (I too am in the no rain zone.:()

How would you compare drilling v. tilling in this low rain year?

if you mean no-tilling versus tilling/planting it would be a good year for no-tillage for certain Dave. Regardless of tillage or no-till planting with a drill we want to get that seed planted 1-2" deep in these dry soils!

if I plant your rye/oats/peas/ghfr mix in the 1st part of sept, what will happen if it doesnt rain? Will the seed still make it for a few weeka with no rain, or does it need to rain in a certain amount of time, this would be in Illinois where we have not had rain since june

Sounds like SE Iowa...no rain since June 28th...

The seed should be fine for a while if the soil is dry, the worst problem is when there is just enough moisture to cause the seed to germinate but not enough to keep it alive. This is less of a problem with cereals then tiny brassica seeds and September is usually cooler so blast furnace hot weather is not so likely to kill newly germinated plants.

In 50 years of planting rye I have never ever had it fail because of dry weather but...there's a first time for everything...;)

[dbltree]

August 21st, 2011

There was a time in my life when my wife and we're struggling to get back on our feet, starting over after selling our farm and moving on to a different way of life. We bought a little piece of land that was nothing but blow sand and went to work building a house. There was a small open area that hadn't been farmed in years so I borrowed a tractor and bought a couple bags of winter rye..couldn't afford fertilizer or lime so I just planted the rye and hoped for the best.

The rye came up thick and lush and did so every year I planted until we sold that home and property...never did fertilize, didn't need to and I killed several deer in that little plot every year, barely a 100 yards from our house.

My point here is that while I promote the use of soils tests and fertilizer...I know that someone is right now in the same place I was years ago, struggling to get by and create some habitat with little of nothing. Winter rye is a crop that can grow on almost any soil, almost anywhere and do so without other inputs, so if a well fertilized mix of seeds isn't in your budget...no worries...throw some rye out and get by til your budget allows you to do something different. :way:

I'm preparing to plant the rye/oat/pea/radish/clover mix in strips or blocks adjacent to brassicas and in some cases soybeans...P&K and lime all tilled in.

Note here that this field is in a soybean/corn rotation (left standing) and will have clover around the perimeter (established with the rye mix) and an every year rotation of brassicas and the rye mix. Rye will be overseeded into the standing beans as well to help meet our goal of providing year around food sources in one place. Fruit trees, oaks and chestnuts are planted around the edge as well and hinging the timber is on the agenda.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Brassicanryerotation.jpg

This field will be clover/rye/brassica rotations screened with Egyptian Wheat

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryebrassicarotation.jpg

more of the same here...each plot will keep deer coming year around with a percentage in white clover and the remaining areas split between the rye mix and brassicas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Brassicaryerotation.jpg

I would encourage every landowner to steer away from planting one crop in this plot and another in a different plot, plant the crops in strips within one field and use a combination of crops geared toward attracting and holding whitetails year a round. :way:

[jboswell]

Well, it looks like I will have time to seed my Rye/Oats/Peas/Alice White Clover mix this weekend.... too early?

I could do it over labor day weekend too but I am on vacation the next two weekends after that so I don't want to miss my window :)

[Boz]

planting the same mix Labor Day, question- do you need to inoculate the peas (Austrian) or not bother since they are just going to get hammered early? Need to order inoculate for some clover so was just wondering if I should spend the money on the pea inoculate.

[dbltree]

Well, it looks like I will have time to seed my Rye/Oats/Peas/Alice White Clover mix this weekend.... too early?

I could do it over labor day weekend too but I am on vacation the next two weekends after that so I don't want to miss my window :)

Either weekend is perfect!

planting the same mix Labor Day, question- do you need to inoculate the peas (Austrian) or not bother since they are just going to get hammered early? Need to order inoculate for some clover so was just wondering if I should spend the money on the pea inoculate.

The peas won't last long enough to really require inoculation so it's kind of a toss up, won't hurt but no biggie if you don't do it either....;)

[billcurry]

What do us WI boys do with the rye and peas-is it to late or to early to plant the rye/pea/clover combo? Our season opens Sept 17th. How many weeks does it take for the rye/peas to become "prime pickns" for the deer? I think the first frost is late September but that shouldn't matter much for rye/peas.

I was itching to plant my rye/peas/clover mix tomorrow. I also want to plant some buckwheat, rape, and turnips tomorrow. I bought 2 bags of urea to help jump start the buckwheat and turnips-both in separate strips/plots.

[ollie085]

I put 1.5 acres in the ground today. Rye and red clover with 50 lbs of field peas per acre. Forecast had rain but it looks like they pushed any chance back quite a few days. Subsurface moisture is still great following the rain from monday. Trying to stay positive!


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/ollie085/2011-08-26171258.jpg

[dbltree]

Yours should do great with plentiful soil moisture already Ollie :way:

August 27th, 2011

Overseeding winter rye into other standing crops such as soybeans can work well but success is dependent entirely on enough rainfall to germinate the seed and continued soil moisture to allow the seeds to send down roots. Even when rain appears imminent, it often doesn't rain hard or long enough to do the job leaving us to wonder...how long can the rye seed lay there and still be viable? Usually several months if need be...

We mowed a field of mature rye and clover in July, never received a drop of rain and then in late August I tilled the field to prepare for another planting of the rye mix. A week later when I returned to till n urea I noticed that even without rain, the tilled under rye seed was germinating thanks to a tiny bit of moisture in the soil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryesprout2.jpg

So rye seed can lay on the soil surface for a long time and still germinate when we get sufficient rainfall...one of the reasons why winter rye is outstanding as a food plotters tool...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryesprout.jpg

I finished planting the first field of the rye mix yesterday...P&K and ag lime had been previously applied so I tilled in 200#'s of urea pulling the packer behind and then broadcasted 100#'s of Jerry oats per acre (almost any oats will do)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5925.jpg

You can mix everything but I chose in this case to broadcast each seperately

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5930.jpg

Setting on the Earthway bag seeder

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5927.jpg

The 50#'s of winter rye seed which is smaller and spreads farther

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5929.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5928.jpg

Setting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5931.jpg

then 50#'s of peas...setting roughly like the oats, inoculate is optional for peas since they will be scarfed up quickly

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5933.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5932.jpg

Then I ran tiller and cultipacker back over it to lightly stir the seeds into the top 1-2" of soil and firm the soil to prepare for the smaller seeds. I run the tractor faster but at lower rpms and don't drop the tiller in to full depth for this process.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5934.jpg

Cultipacking is a crucial element in all of this but one can use an ATV, tractor tires, heavy plank, light harrow etc. to cover large seeds and firm the soil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5935.jpg

Cultipackers work far better then a flat roller because the ridged wheels support the weight and just firm soil around and over seed with out actually "packing" soil flat like a lawn roller.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5936.jpg

In this case we are establishing alfalfa and red clover for hay and to attract deer as well so I sowed 20$'s of alfalfa seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5937.jpg

and 10#'s of red clover along with 5#'s of groundhog forage radish seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5938.jpg

and repacked with the tiller up to gently firm the soil and cover the tiny seeds in the top 1/8" to 1/4" of soil

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5926.jpg

The ground is desperately dry with no rain in the forecast so it's unlikely that anything will germinate until we get sufficient rains but it will leap to life once the rains return to our area. Please remember to pray for our friends on the east coast as they deal with Hurricane Irene... ;)

[KSQ2]

Keep your chin up Paul that rain will come!!

[dbltree]

Keep your chin up Paul that rain will come!!

but the question is...will it come in time...:confused:

[jerred44]

all of my clover plots are dead, with no rain in sight, I will be planting the rye, oats, peas, ghfr, on my farm ( if it rains) but my question is can I throw some rye and oats into one od my dead clover plots? I know the clover will come back with some rain, but will it hurt if I throw some rye and oats in? or will the clover need all the moisture and room after no rain since June? We dont have anything green on our farm, Im hoping it will rain soon and the clover will turn around.

[dbltree]

all of my clover plots are dead, with no rain in sight, I will be planting the rye, oats, peas, ghfr, on my farm ( if it rains) but my question is can I throw some rye and oats into one od my dead clover plots? I know the clover will come back with some rain, but will it hurt if I throw some rye and oats in? or will the clover need all the moisture and room after no rain since June? We dont have anything green on our farm, Im hoping it will rain soon and the clover will turn around.

It won't hurt to add some rye...oats don't do worth a flip on top of the soil unless we get a bunch of rain. If we get enough rain to restore the clover however, it will probably out compete the rye but give it a shout and let us know how it works out?

[ollie085]

Day 6...planted 8/26. If you could have seen my face when I came around the corn and saw this! :grin:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/ollie085/2011-09-01154853.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/ollie085/2011-09-01154932.jpg

[OKplotter]

Dbltree,

I usually plant my rye, oats, clover during the labor day weekend. This year I plan to add peas, ghfr, and chicory. However here in Oklahoma we are still extremely dry, with very little expectation of rain over the next 7 to 10 days. How long can I wait to plant this mix and expect it to add value. I'm beginning to think I should simply plant rye and oats since they have the best chance of helping this fall, and worry about clover next spring. What would u do?

Doug

[dbltree]

You could frost seed the clover in late winter if your concerned about moisture this fall or watch the weather and if rain is imminent....get the seed on just ahead of the rain...:way:

[jerred44]

when is too late to plant the rye, ghfr, oats mix? 10 dayforecast shows no rain what so ever

[dbltree]

when is too late to plant the rye, ghfr, oats mix? 10 dayforecast shows no rain what so ever

Mid September is fine but as it gets closer to October go heavier on the rye and leave out the GHFR and peas...;)

[DUG]

I have my cereal grain mix planted again this year and it works great!! Just wanted to know what everyone is finding there average price per acre to plant this mix. I have around $130 an acre in seed from my local seed supplier. Does that seem high? Oh and if anybody is selling rain I would be more than happy to pay $130 an acre for that right now. None since the end of July here in southern Illinois.

[trev33]

That seems high. What's in your mix?

[DUG]

80lbs winter rye
80lbs seed oats
50lbs winter peas
6lbs ladino white clover
5lbs diakon forage radish

[trev33]

Your mix would be around $85-$95 at our local co-op.

[Critter]

80lbs winter rye
80lbs seed oats
50lbs winter peas
6lbs ladino white clover
5lbs diakon forage radish

I'm no expert, but I'd say you could cover at least 2 acres with that mix??

[Boz]

80lbs winter rye
80lbs seed oats
50lbs winter peas
6lbs ladino white clover
5lbs diakon forage radish


This post got me thinking about what I spent per acre yesterday:
I definitely feel that I went plenty heavy with everything.

Winter rye 1 bushel @$15 - $15.00
Jerry oats 2 bushel @$9 - $18.00
Austrian peas 15 pounds @$1 - $15.00
GFR 5 pounds @$2.85 - $14.25
Alice white clover 7 pounds @$4.50 - $31.50
inoculation 1/2 bag @10.40 - $5.20

Total $98.95 per acre- not counting tax/gas/etc...

Deer hunting sure got a lot more expensive when we started to plant food plots! Hopefully we get some rain now and this stuff grows!

[dbltree]

I'm no expert, but I'd say you could cover at least 2 acres with that mix??

Actually that is about what I use Jamie and yes you could plant 2 acres with it but I have heavy grazing pressure and they will graze that mix to the dirt! :eek:

I use
50#'s rye
100#'s oats
50#'s peas
5#'s GHFR
15#' red clover and/or 4-6#'s white clover...total can run over $100...but...plant an acre of RR corn and see what that sets you back...:rolleyes:

[dbltree]

September 7th, 2011

I love a good steak and I wouldn't pass one up just tossed on the grill as is, but adding some spices or marinading it first can turn an ordinary steak into an outstanding one! That's a little like my cereal mix...if you on a budget or have little competition from surrounding food sources plant 50-100#'s of winter rye and 6-8#'s of VNS ladino clover and call it good!

I use oats in my mix to get more fall forage yet less spring competition from the rye as the clover grows and I use peas because it can compete with surrounding fall crops. The forage radish is also irresistible by mid October when I want deer focused on my food sources but my needs may be sightly or even greatly different from yours. The key elements should always be a combination of rye and clover with varying amounts of the other seeds depending on you budget and actual grazing needs...

I've planted over 30 acres of my rye/oats/peas/radish/clover mix so far and still have about 5 acres to finish up. A landowner and I worked together to get 7 acres planted on his farm where we had everything pre-tilled and fertilizer worked in. I used the broadcast seeder to spread the rye/oats and peas and he followed with the Brillion sowing the clovers and radish seeds and covering the large seeds at the same time.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5976.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5969.jpg

Good soil moisture and the seeds covered well!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5965.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5966.jpg

Most of the plantings are part of a clover, brassica and cereal grain rotation and the landowner walk seeded KopuII white clover by hand around the edges and odd areas and then seeded over it and the balance of the cereal planting with red clover and forage radish.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5964.jpg

The fields are screened well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5963.jpg

and in many cases "shaped" to pull deer closer to stands

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5977.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5984.jpg

We also sowed some trails and odd areas around fields with the primary purpose being to establish white clover using the rye mix to get it started and attract whitetails this fall.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_5988.jpg

A little more rain would be nice right about now.... ;)

[Central Iowa]

Looks like a nice well thought out set up. :way:

[crs740]

Can broadcast winter rye into an existing clover field in March or April and left to mature so that the clover plot would eventually be able to take advantage of the alleopathic properties of the rye or would it better to just spary the clover plot with Arrow, Poast or some other grass selective herbicide?

[dbltree]

Can broadcast winter rye into an existing clover field in March or April and left to mature so that the clover plot would eventually be able to take advantage of the alleopathic properties of the rye or would it better to just spary the clover plot with Arrow, Poast or some other grass selective herbicide?

No...better off to use clethodim to clean up grasses :way:

[jmm46]

If I sprayed roundup and then broadcasted winter rye would it grow or does the roundup kill the winter rye seed?

[Sligh1]

If I sprayed roundup and then broadcasted winter rye would it grow or does the roundup kill the winter rye seed?
You'd be fine. Round-up won't hurt seed. In any case, I just spray the round-up 1st and then immediately broadcast the rye right behind it. You'd be fine.

[dbltree]

September 11, 2011

Ten years ago an attack on our country left thousands of people dead and many more lives shattered, as we pursue our habitat and hunting endeavors it's important to keep things in perspective and be thankful for our blessings including that we are alive an free to enjoy them....

I finished planting fall plots with a little over 37 acres of the cereal grain mix in the ground, the first fields were planted August 26th and received nearly 2" of rain on the 30th...they are off to the races now!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6041.jpg

We are establishing red clover and alfalfa in this field and the little seedlings are popping up!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6044.jpg

Along with the little Groundhog forage radish plants!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6043.jpg

This field will be attracting deer all fall and winter and then for years to come as an alfalfa field!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6042.jpg

Each field is a sea of green!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6062.jpg

With all of the rye, oats, peas, radish and clovers up and growing!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6063.jpg

and it didn't take the deer long to find the salad bar deluxe! (the previous landowner told me he didn't think deer liked rye...;))

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6071.jpg

About half of the plantings were done after the rain and it's been dry since so once again we find ourselves praying for rain, yet thankful for simply being blessed with land on which to enjoy planting and hunting.... ;)

[dbltree]

September 11th, 2011

Ten years ago an attack on our country left thousands of people dead and many more lives shattered, as we pursue our habitat and hunting endeavors it's important to keep things in perspective and be thankful for our blessings including that we are alive an free to enjoy them....

I finished planting fall plots with a little over 37 acres of the cereal grain mix in the ground, the first fields were planted August 26th and received nearly 2" of rain on the 30th...they are off to the races now!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6041.jpg

We are establishing red clover and alfalfa in this field and the little seedlings are popping up!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6044.jpg

Along with the little Groundhog forage radish plants!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6043.jpg

This field will be attracting deer all fall and winter and then for years to come as an alfalfa field!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6042.jpg

Each field is a sea of green!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6062.jpg

With all of the rye, oats, peas, radish and clovers up and growing!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6063.jpg

and it didn't take the deer long to find the salad bar deluxe! (the previous landowner told me he didn't think deer liked rye...;))

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6071.jpg

About half of the plantings were done after the rain and it's been dry since so once again we find ourselves praying for rain, yet thankful for simply being blessed with land on which to enjoy planting and hunting.... ;)

[Boz]

About half of the plantings were done after the rain and it's been dry since so once again we find ourselves praying for rain, yet thankful for simply being blessed with land on which to enjoy planting and hunting.... ;)

I planted the "dbltree cereal mix" on 9/4-9/5 and the first hint of rain was on Wednesday 9/14. I think the rye/oats/clover should be fine for the fall but what about the peas and radishes? Is it too late for them to amount to anything assuming they germinate in the next few days?

[dbltree]

I planted the "dbltree cereal mix" on 9/4-9/5 and the first hint of rain was on Wednesday 9/14. I think the rye/oats/clover should be fine for the fall but what about the peas and radishes? Is it too late for them to amount to anything assuming they germinate in the next few days?

No they should still provide forage yet this fall so keep us posted! Put up an exclusion cage to know how much growth you really get compared to grazing height...:way:

[OKplotter]

The drought in Oklahoma this year made me push back my fall planting (I usually plant Labor Day Weekend). On the 10th of September I disked an addition to an existing food plot that I had worked on all year cutting brush and trees. This is how it looked after I packed in the seeds with my tractor. Absolutely no moisture, but the weather man said it was coming!
992
Here is my son doing a little red neck surfing
993
5 days after planting 9/15/11, we got 1.3" and it got my rye, oats, red and white clover going. Then about a week later, yesterday the 22nd we got almost 2" more. I couldn't wait so I went out today to see how it looked. The grains and clover are both coming up great. The soil was very "fluffy" and I was concerned about the clover but it worked out fine.
995
The next two pics show the field from opposite ends.
991
994
In the middle of this field I have Milo and Millet still standing. I was hoping to make it a dove plot, but I decided to leave the Milo for the deer. Next year I will expand the plot more so I can make strips instead of blocks of different crops.

Last year I planted rye alone but after reading this thread I wished I had added clover and oats. I was going to add forage radishes and chicory as well this year but I didn't want to buy the seed if it was going to be too dry to plant. When the forecast finally said rain was coming, my local seed store was out of chicory and daikon forage radishes.

When I got there today I had 300 pics of mostly does and fawns. They are eating corn and keeping the grains mowed around my feeder. Lord willing I or my son will put one of the does in the freezer opening day.

Thanks Dbltree for all your advice!

[dbltree]

Your plots look great...thanks for sharing and good luck this season! :way:

[dbltree]

September 26th, 2011

Some of our rye/oats/pea/radish/red clover mix has been in the ground for nearly 30 days now and we are able to see the fruits of our labors...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zc10-Copy.jpg


Pick any day and they are out there!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zc9-Copy.jpg

and they will be out there literally all fall, winter, spring and summer with this combination of crops planted together

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zc8-Copy.jpg

They have grazed this field hard despite being adjacent to alfalfa and despite extremely dry conditions the rye mix is holding it's own

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6115.jpg

We use trail cams with field scan modes that allow us to verify what is actually going on out in the plots but grazing is also obvious....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6114.jpg

This planting was done to establish alfalfa and red clover...and it's coming up nicely!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6113.jpg

I'm going to continue to share "field scan" pics of deer in rye mix plots over the next few days but I also encourage you to share your own in this thread if your cams have the capability.... :way:

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I figured I would share some pictures. I posted in the management form that I had the guy skip out on planting my fall food plots this year. I had the field sprayed and ready to go for him and he never showed. Anyway the field was sprayed in the middle of july.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/304796_10150396267122448_726677447_9946103_4905585 12_n.jpg
As you can tell from the picture I was left with a field full of foxtail. It is crazy when you burn a field off how fast the foxtail can take over.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/310234_10150396266457448_726677447_9946099_2128800 774_n.jpg
After a couple hours with a mower and a tiller I had it looking decent and ready to be planted. I used a truax trillion and planted winter rye. I planted it at 150 pounds on a little over 1.5 acres.
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316338_10150396266652448_726677447_9946100_1714500 93_n.jpg
I like the view from the stand. We just need to get a little rain to get it kick started. I know it is far better to kill it off before you till it under but I decided in the last few days to do it so I didnt have the time. I also wanted to get it in before the rain on monday. I did get it planted but it rained probably less than a 1/10 of an inch. Praying for more rain. I will keep you guys posted on how it comes in. It was planted on 9/26/11

[dbltree]

Thanks for the pictures and post! :way:

I have a good friend who owned a farm near mine and of course we share habitat information and observations on a regular basis and he would comment about deer using his standing soybeans, turnips and clover but tell me the rye mix he didn't feel was getting much attention. I in turn would say "gee...mine are getting hammered so what's going on over there??"

My friend sold his farm and the new owner asked me to take over the habitat management, something I was eager to do in part to see if I would find different results then my friend had?? We have a ways to go and with no rain this summer I was challenged to grow ANYTHING let alone put into play the crop rotations that I normally employ. In late August I tilled up everything including the brassica strips that never germinated and planted all of the plots to the one crop mix I can always count on...winter rye/oats/winter peas/forage radish and red clover and my son and I finished cultipacking the last plot when God blessed us with 2" of rain!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6165.jpg

So there are some interesting observations that I have been able to make now, some comparisons and using cams on field scan mode I can have "eyes" on these plots 24-7 rather then just when someone happens to be hunting or some such.

One observation is that the brassica seed that laid there for 2 months with no rain to germinate it and then was disced under with a heavy 16' disc....all came up when we got rain!! I would have thought that the disc would have buried it too deep??

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6166.jpg

Since people often want to mix brassicas with cereals in the fall...this is a good opportunity to show how little growth they get compared to mid summer brassica plantings.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6167.jpg

The Groundhog forage radish is an exception because it grows extremely fast in 30 days and can indeed provide an excellent draw during hunting season.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6170.jpg

The peas tend to be more attractive a little later on which work well because it gives them a chance to grow

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6168.jpg

The rye and oats however are getting hammered...in every field on every farm so I am unsure why my friend felt he observed something different but there are many many variables that can effect what we see and what actually is going on.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6169.jpg

The other interesting observation is that there are large fields of wheat stubble, full of volunteer wheat that sprouted with the same 3" rain, right adjacent to several of the rye combination plots. Those fields were not-till planted to soybeans in early July but failed to grow more then 4-6" high thanks to the drought...yet the deer are focusing solely on the rye combination plots

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6171.jpg

You can see that the wheat is young and tender, same height as the rye and oats...yet untouched

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6172.jpg

All of that being said...the only thing that matter is if deer are using this plots on a daily basis and that's where the field scan cams come in handy!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb3.jpg

I would also mention here that there are thousands of acres of both standing and freshly harvested corn and soybeans surrounding this farm so these deer do have choices

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb4.jpg

Note the Egyptian Wheat screens and hidden centralized feeding areas....that along makes a huge difference!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb7.jpg

So if we plant one crop in a hidden area that is well screened and another in a wide open field far away from bedding cover...we are going to see a difference in use

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb11.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb9.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb6.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb12.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zb16.jpg

[KSQ2]

One observation is that the brassica seed that laid there for 2 months with no rain to germinate it and then was disced under with a heavy 16' disc....all came up when we got rain!! I would have thought that the disc would have buried it too deep??

Same thing happened to us Paul! I couldn't believe it when I went back to see the back plot. Brassicas growing up everywhere!

[Andy in Ohio]

Planted 1.5 acres of rye, oats, GH forage radish, alice white clover / alsike clover on Aug 31 as per Dbltree's instructions using an ATV disc and cultipacker. Our foodplot is in the Ohio River floodplain so we did 4lbs Alice and 4 lbs Alsike (per acre) to deal with the flooding we get every spring. We have received 6 inches of rain since we planted and it is growing great.

Saw 21 deer eating feeding in the evening on 9/22. Can't wait for bow season to start :grin:

[risto2351]

Well my cereal grain crop is looking very good.
I planted rye, oats, GFR, peas and clover. It rained within
3 days and good super hot. We did not get a drop of rain for two weeks after that.

My cereal grains next to my brassicas.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09928.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09927.jpg

In this food plot the brassica did not grow very well.

I filled it in with cereal grains and planted the other half with all
cereal grains.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09918.jpg





http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09911-1.jpg



Everything is growing great.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC09915.jpg

[jjohnson]

Looking good Tony

[dbltree]

October 6th, 2011

My wife's youngest sister was tragically killed by a drunk driver on September 30th, so I am nearly a week behind in posting pictures an updates as these are from the last week of September.

The brassicas that never came up in July, did come up after being tilled under and re-planted to the rye combination mix and while they are doing quite well, they will never achieve the fantastic growth of those that DID germinate in July.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6245.jpg

These, you will notice are far thicker then a smattering of Groundhog forage radish that I normally mix with the cereal grain mix and thus compete vigorously with the cereals and peas normally planted in late August.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6244.jpg

The rye/oats/peas/radish/clover mix typically look like this

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6256.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6255.jpg

With the cereals providing the bulk of the forage

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6249.jpg

The peas and radish providing the "candy" in the mix that help adapt deer to feeding there

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6257.jpg

After the last rain, more GHFR and cereals are coming up in late planted plots

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6254.jpg

and it doesn't take deer long to start grazing the succulent young plants

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6253.jpg

The difference in soil quality is obvious here, where I tilled closer to the edge of the timber...soil organic matter is almost non-existent and trees suck up any remaining soil moisture and nutrients.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6247.jpg

Even the cereals struggle here and this is a great example of why we need to improve soils through the use of cover crops that feed deer and soils both. This soil received the same fertilizer, lime and rainfall as the rest of the field yet plants suffer greatly.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6248.jpg

The Egyptian Wheat screens are a huge help in making deer feel comfortable feeding n the rye plots during daylight hours

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6258.jpg

I planted over 30 acres of the rye combination on multiple farms in several counties and all of them are being grazed heavily.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/za2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/za5-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/za1-1.jpg

Please share your own pictures in this thread, be safe in the timber this fall and please....don't drink and drive (http://www.independentmail.com/news/2011/oct/01/woman-killed-car-driver-charged/)....

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

Plots are looking great Paul. Sorry to hear about the loss in your family.

[Daver]

Paul - I had noticed that you hadn't been posting lately and now I know why. I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your sister-in-law.

I really have no tolerance for drunk drivers, for this very reason, and I do not hesitate to dial 911 and be an uncool "narc" if I see someone swerving around, etc, while driving. I've done it multiple times and it has led directly to arrests at least a couple of times. To me, drunk driving is no different than shooting a gun randomly in the air and we sure don't tolerate that, rightfully so. Someone, and way too often it is someone completely innocent, is going to get hurt or killed eventually by a drunk driver.

Truly a sad deal, again, I am sorry to hear that, please pass along condolences to Lori and your family.

[OKplotter]

Sorry to hear about your family's loss. It's hard to understand why some people make such poor decisions!

[DH1]

Sorry for this loss for you and the rest of your family Paul, I pray that some peace can be found, as there is no understanding of this.

[dbltree]

Remember to use trail cams whenever you can when comparing or testing food sources, they "observe" 24-7 and reveal what and when deer are using. They leave absolutely no doubt as to what is going on in your plots.

I didn't have the time stamp turned on but these are deer using the winter rye combo almost from the day it came up...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r3-1.jpg

Any crop planted alone or in a different field is no comparison at all so be sure to plant comparable crops side by side

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r1-1.jpg

Here...deer have a choice between white clover on the left and brassicas on the right

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r2-1.jpg

The batteries were dead in the cam from taking so many pictures but here is a recent pic of the rye, oats, peas, radish mix that reveals heavy grazing...one observation anyone can make anywhere in any plot. Larger plots with lower deer density however will sometimes make grazing evidence far less noticeable.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6308.jpg

This is white clover right beside the rye and brassicas...also heavily grazed...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/IMG_6306.jpg

Over time deer will adapt to new plots and new food sources...3 years ago deer refused to touch brassicas in these strip plots but since adding Groundhog forage radish they have over time adapted to feeding on brassicas and in fact seem now intent on wiping them out!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicas/Deer%20in%20brassicas/b1.jpg

This is the most common sight....deer feeding in all three crop types and one would most likely find this scenario if comparing 3 white clovers, brassicas or cereals in a side by side test.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicas/Deer%20in%20brassicas/b2.jpg

Often we put too much emphasis on "deer preference" when in fact, once adapted to finding year around food sources in a safe centralized feeding area adjacent to a secure bedding area....they will usually eat nearly anything you plant and very little can lure them away. First year observations may then be different from 2nd and 3rd year comparisons depending on the situation in and around your property so keep track via trail cams and the results may prove interesting down the road.... ;)

[dbltree]

Mike sent me a couple pics of his rye combination plot from up in WI...by day it's pretty quiet...and sandwiched between a boat load of other food sources it might seem it would stay that way...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Mikerye1.jpg

by night however it's another story and another reason to get trail cams out to see what is really going on!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Mikerye2.jpg

When the weather turns cold they are going to turn on Mikes soybeans with a vengeance which of course is why we use multiple crops in the same field to keep them coming year around. The rye will be there long after the beans are gone and keep them fed well into spring.

Get some trail cams out in your plots and find out what is really going on... ;)

[dbltree]

October 18th, 2011

Well we've seen lot's of deer eating the winter rye/oats/peas/radish/clover salad bar...but what about the bucks??

Guess they give it the thumbs up too...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx14.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zv4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zn1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx30.jpg

Soon...the last thing on any bucks mind will be eating anything at all but he will be where the does are...and I reckon we know where they'll be this fall... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zs5.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/za1-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx1.jpg

My friends in Pike County Illinois sent me this pic of their winter rye combination plot...yikes! :eek::D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Downieryeplot.jpg

Guess they love rye in Illinois too...:way:

[Boz]

Really wish I would have taken the time to up an exclusion cage on my winter rye/oats/peas/radish/clover plot so I could tell how well its growing, lesson learned. Due to lack of rain over the last two months and a huge increase in usage of the plot thanks to a combo of brassica, clover, corn and cereal strips the deer are keeping the cereal mix mowed down to half an inch or less. Hopefully it will last a couple more weeks till I can actually hunt it.

[letemgrow]

I have been really impressed with the winter rye I broadcast into the standing beans. They have been severely lacking rain yet they are looking great. These were broadcast when the beans were turning.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/100_0446.jpg

[SCOFFIN]

I have been really impressed with the winter rye I broadcast into the standing beans. They have been severely lacking rain yet they are looking great. Broadcast these when the b xG z Z Wu atyeans were turning

g. I. D..L. ox

gls x .AWuxz z X

[letemgrow]

g. I. D..L. ox

gls x .AWuxz z X


I have a feeling my 2 year old helped me out with that post some. :grin:

[dbltree]

I have been really impressed with the winter rye I broadcast into the standing beans. They have been severely lacking rain yet they are looking great. These were broadcast when the beans were turning.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k445/pes1979/Habitat%20Improvements%20on%20the%20farm/100_0446.jpg

Nice work Phil! Thanks for posting that pic (with the help of your 2 yr old of course...:D )

October 26th, 2011

Tough year for food plots in SE Iowa this year but despite the powder dry soils the winter rye/oats/peas and radish are holding their own...well...in some cases at least the rye and oats are still there! This is the first field I planted roughly 90 days ago....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6383.jpg

and deer are keeping it hammered to the ground!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6382.jpg

The peas and radish are all but gone here already!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6384.jpg

There always comments now and then about "deer like this cereal better then that" but you will never see any of it a different height then the other...they graze both rye and oats evenly...and in this case the forage radish gets the extra "nip"! Note the little red clover seedlings...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6385.jpg

the trail cams reveal the reason for the well "mowed" plot...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r1-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r2-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r3-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/r4.jpg

In larger fields the rye/oat/pea/radish/clover combination is holding up a little better

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6407.jpg

the Groundhog forage radish at least has a chance to grow a bit

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6408.jpg

and the Austrian winter peas are hanging in there

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6409.jpg

but plenty of grazing going on!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx8.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx1-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx5.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zx7.jpg

This is the last field planted...took forever to come up because it missed getting the rains the other fields did yet slowly but surely the plot is greening up!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6515.jpg

In every plot on every farm there is evidence of grazing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6512.jpg

This is a sample of why it is really fruitless to plant rape and turnips with cereals...they just don't have enough time to put on any growth compared to July plantings. These are here only because they failed to germinate on July due to zero rainfall...and came up with rain in September after being re-planted to rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6516.jpg

Every field looks like this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z1-1.jpg

Bucks...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z7.jpg

no where the does will be

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z2-1.jpg

We haven't had rain in weeks...yet the winter rye/oat/pea/radish combination is attracting and holding whitetails and will be all winter and into spring....at which point the red clover will hold them until I till it under for a rotation to brassicas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z6.jpg

Fields that were planted before we got 2" of rain on August 30th have great stands of both white and red clover...those planted afterwards I think the clover in some areas may have germinated and died. To be safe I'll frost seed additional clover in late winter so check your stands when you can....;)

[crs740]

How mnay acres are the fields you plant the rye mix in? I am going to modify some of the areas on my farm next year. I have one field that is 2 acres that is surrounded by timber. It is half clover/chicory and half brasicas and oats this year. I was thinking of putting it into 3 strips next year, one clover/chicory, one straight brassicas, and one in something similiar to yor rye mix. What do you think? I have another field that is one acre, would it be wise to do the same as above on a smaller scale?

[dbltree]

How many acres are the fields you plant the rye mix in? I am going to modify some of the areas on my farm next year. I have one field that is 2 acres that is surrounded by timber. It is half clover/chicory and half brassicas and oats this year. I was thinking of putting it into 3 strips next year, one clover/chicory, one straight brassicas, and one in something similar to your rye mix. What do you think? I have another field that is one acre, would it be wise to do the same as above on a smaller scale?

Every feeding area I plant on my own land or for others is divided into strips or blocks that include individual plantings of white clover, brassicas and the rye mix.

That includes areas as small as a large garden or as big as a ten acre field but larger areas do not need to be a 1/3 clover. I generally plant 10-20% to white clover and divide the rest between brassicas and the rye combo.

Your on the right track with your plans...:way:

[dbltree]

November 3rd, 2011

We try to stay out of the food plots this time of year but I had to check a couple cams on the outer edges of some fields and took a few pics while there. Keep in mind these are the spots with the least grazing simply because they are the farthest from bedding and have the least screening.

The winter rye, oats, Austrian, Winter Pea, Groundhog Forage Radish, red clover mix....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Mix2.jpg

This pics shows all of the components of this "deer salad"...like the radish, peas are also "deer candy" and very attractive to deer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Mix1.jpg

Here is why I add the GHFR...deer focused on the rye and oats early on but now the GHFR has reached a height that deer find irresistible and they have turned on it with a vengeance!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/GHFR.jpg

Like winter rye...there is the added advantage of the fact that forage radish plants are also nitrogen scavengers

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/GHFR3.jpg

as well as having allelopathic chemicals that help control weeds the following spring and the roots help break up compacted soils.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/GHFR2.jpg

The clovers...I cannot stress enough the importance of adding clovers to this mix in the fall!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clovers4.jpg

Use white, red or alsike...white for perennial clover and red if you plan to rotate this to brassicas the following summer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clovers2.jpg

We have had temps down to 25 degrees which killed the annual weed grasses like foxtail but has had zero effect on the oats and of course rye is the most winter hardy of all cereals.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clovers3.jpg

The clovers are already well established and will require no weed control next spring because they, along with the winter rye will quickly suffocate weeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clovers1.jpg

Despite having the least protective surrounding cover, these fields of the rye combination mix are covered up with deer!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z1-2.jpg

and even rutting bucks can't resist feeding on it!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z9.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z6-1.jpg

This the first year for these plots and for these deer feeding on this mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z5.jpg

In areas overloaded with food sources however it can take deer a year or two to adapt to feeding in any plot, planted to almost any crop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z2-2.jpg

Grant Woods noted that because deer in his area were not accustomed to eating soybeans, they scarcely touched them the first year but over the coming years they soon adapted to not only the beans but the feeding place itself and eventually started wiping them out.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z10.jpg

There are many many variables involved when comparing crop types and each landowner should keep that in mind. Provide multiple food sources in ONE place (per 80-120 acres), provide them year around, be certain the feeding area is screened and safe and allow the deer several years to adapt to feeding there before passing judgment. Like Grant, in time you will find that deer will likely begin wiping out whatever you plant...and this mix is one of the few that can take the punishment of heavy grazing and if clover is included STILL provide year around food sources.

Consider adding the rye/oats/peas/radish/clover mix to your habitat arsenal...your deer will be glad you did... :way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinrye-1.jpg

[dbltree]

November 6th, 2011

The rut...the time we all wait for! While providing food year around is crucial to adapting deer to living on our property, providing an attractive, impossible to resist food source food source in November is critical. There are of course many crops that can fill this need and ideally we will have those crops planted strips or blocks within one centrally located feeding area.

Winter rye, oats, forage peas, forage radish and either white or red clover is one crop mix that whitetails find irresistible and cameras reveal what we are not always there to see in person....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Skagg1.jpg

Boat loads of deer...here feeding behind an Egyptian Wheat screen....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/pa000295.jpg

Big mature bucks are not interested in feed now...but what they are interested in...is feeding on the rye combination...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Skagg2.jpg

On this farm the landowner is able to monitor the success of his plots via Buckeye cams that remotely send pictures to his computer without bothering deer using the food sources. Day and night they silently send information that helps him better manage his habitat and whitetails and though he has never had the rye combination mix planted on any of his farms in the past...you can rest assured he'll want it included every year from now on.... ;)

[Qdmaer]

None of my neighbors plant rye so this would be an excellent draw.

[dbltree]

November 18th, 2011

Flip side of the rut here in SE Iowa, still some bucks locked down with does while others are on a desperate cross country search for another hot doe. The constant harassment however changes the routines of the doe groups who tire of being chased relentlessly and are more cautious about entering feeding areas. Still, they are hungry and slip out into the plots in smaller groups or individuals to grab a bite before diving back into the brush...

Tuesday morning it was 26 and Wednesday morning it was 19 yet the winter rye, oats, peas, radish and clover combo remains vibrant, healthy green and growing! Winter rye is of course the most winter hardy winter cereal and will continue growing when other cereals like wheat have stopped and then start growing again in very early spring, again before wheat does....these traits help make winter rye and invaluable cornerstone in this mix.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2011-11-15_13-39-27_461.jpg

Contrary to what you read in the ads most common oats are very cold tolerant and will usually last well into early to mid December here in southern Iowa. While I use oats such as Jerry or Jim, almost any will work well and are very affordable, yet highly attractive forages in this mix. The reason I add oats is because they will in fact freeze out, leaving only the rye behind which planted at only 50-60#'s per acre will not suffocate the seedling clovers in the spring.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2011-11-15_13-40-10_497.jpg

The Groundhog forage radish has now been eaten to the root on almost every plant and as cold weather moves in, they will devour every single root eating it right to the soil. If that were not enough...the root will decompose allowing water to flow in the channels and the freezing and thawing will pulverize compacted soils. The decaying roots will also leave behind scavenged nitrogen...all of which make the GHFR and indispensable tool in this outstanding mix of great forage and cover crops.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2011-11-15_13-39-53_519.jpg

Deer have beaten down runways going into these plots despite having fields of freshly combined corn and soybeans to feed in only a hundred yards away.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Runway.jpg

The area were brassicas came up (that didn't during the drought) are being eaten, yes...but they offer a fraction of the forage that July planted brassicas do with little or no root growth. Secondly they have suffocated the cereals and clovers out so for best results add 5#'s of GHFR to your rye mix but plant the typical brassica mix in mid summer in separate strips within the same plot and then rotate yearly.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2011-11-15_13-38-37_850.jpg

It's easy to see the field has been trampled and heavily grazed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2011-11-15_13-40-24_304.jpg

This mix is so effective I sometimes wonder why I bother with electric fences and soybeans!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dr2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dr3.jpg

Note some deer are feeding in the beans but they all end up in the rye even though they are chest deep in soybeans!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zd2.jpg

These are situations where deer have a clear choice and for now prefer the rye mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/zd1.jpg

Bucks of course could care less about either and have one thing on their minds but show up daily/nightly looking for does they know will be feeding there.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/z1-3.jpg

The older mature bucks are most efficient at finding does in estrous and least likely to show up for another week or two but the younger bucks appear one after another...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b1-7.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b9-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b7-3.jpg

Plant multiple food sources within one centralized feeding area, that in combination will provide food YEAR AROUND, next to premium thick cover...and over time deer will adapt to this and you will successfully attract and hold whitetails.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b8-1.jpg

[OKplotter]

:way:I have seen more deer this year than ever before, since planting dbltree's rye mix. The deer are hitting it hard day and night.

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=829&pictureid=8840

This buck knows where the does are, getting tons of bucks cruising and stopping for a bite.

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=829&pictureid=8842

Just think, all this without paying too much for the buck on the bag seed! Even in a drought year it turned out great. I just didn't give myself enough time to find forage radishes elsewhere, when my local seed store had sold out. So this is dbltree's mix without radishes. Next year I plan to add the radishes and chicory for the hot summers here in Oklahoma.

[dbltree]

I have seen more deer this year than ever before

Awesome! Thanks for sharing the pics and report! :way:

November 26th, 2011

These threads are meant to be teaching tools to provide landowners with information and options to help them dramatically improve their habitat and their ability to hold mature whitetails on their property. The answers to the habitat puzzle however do not lie within the parameters of any on single subject (thread) but rather a combination of ALL the threads, ALL the crops and habitat improvements together. Unfortunately many people forget this and concentrate on only one element which by itself is only one piece of the puzzle so I encourage everyone to learn all they can about everything from apple trees to switchgrass, hinging to Egyptian Wheat, brassicas to milo and then put the right pieces of the puzzle together to build a successful habitat program.

In this thread I share the attributes of the following combination...

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

The assumption here is that each of you will have spent a little time in reading about these crops to know if they have any limitations on your soils or climates but let's briefly cover them here.

Winter rye can grow on almost any soils almost anywhere with the exception of the far deep south such as southern Florida or extremely arid areas of places like Texas. It thrives on everything from sandy to clay and only very flooded areas, deep muck soils or extremely alkaline soils are likely to affect it. This makes winter rye and extremely effective tool for most landowners, many of who are dealing with less then desirable soils.

Oats are not far behind rye but will not fare as well on very poor soils so some testing may be required to see how they fare on yours.

Forage Peas are pretty adaptable but are cool season crops that need reasonable soil moisture, fertility and cool temps to thrive but in most of the nation from the much of the south to the lower mid west to the far north, peas will usually do fairly well.

Forage radish...needs higher levels of soil moisture and plenty of nitrogen to thrive so while it may survive on most soils it may not amount to much on extremely droughty soils with very low organic matter.

Clovers both white and red clovers are very adaptable but will not do well or even fail completely on very sandy dry soils. They do best on clay or clay loams soils but will also do well on loamy soils with good moisture. Some annual clovers such as Crimson or Arrowleaf may be a better option on poor soils and Alsike clover works well in low areas that tend to be a bit alkaline.

The reason for the clovers in this mix is two fold, first to provide a summer long food source the spring and summer following the fall planting of this mix, to help meet our goals of holding deer year around. Secondly to provide a source of nitrogen (clovers are legumes that fix their own nitrogen) that once killed, will be released to the subsequent crop as the clover plants decompose. This also provides up to 2 1/2 tons of biomass (organic matter) to help enrich our soils and in turn allows us to grow better food sources more economically.

All of that of course is the short version and there is much much more to be learned about each individual crop and how each one not only is highly attractive to deer but also tremendous soil builders as well.

For those with very sandy droughty soils that will not grow clover, your goal should be to build soils up so that in time it can support clovers of some kind or another. Hairy vetch is a great alternative to add to this mix and then till under the following early summer at which point crops like buckwheat or forage sorghum could be used a short term cover crops that can be tilled under green to further build your soils.

The mix i share will work for the lions share of the country and some of elements of it will work for 95% of those interested in both feeding whitetails and building soils but each of you must do your own due diligence and research and then test for your self and see what works best for you.

It's late November...temps have been in the upper teens, the rut is on the downward side and doe groups are returning to more normal activity....namely storing fat reserves for the long cold winter ahead.

These are pics of the above posted mix planted on fair soils (40 CSR) with 400#'s 6-28-28, 200#'s 46-0-0 and 400#'s pel lime added at planting (that much fertilizer is not necessary yearly for this mix but was used to initially replace/replenish abused soils)

Grazing is obvious...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6793.jpg

Note here the beautiful clover seedlings well on their way! No better time to establish perennial clovers then in the fall with this rye combination mix! In the spring these clovers will be lush and thick long before spring planting is even underway!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6794.jpg

Here you can see every element of the mix and how they all are able to thrive together, each fulfilling a purpose to both feed deer and improve soils.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6795.jpg

Even though well fertilized and obviously healthy and lush, whitetails have kept it grazed to 3-6" high

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6796.jpg

If they were not grazed they would be more then a foot high as we see here

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6792.jpg

The Groundhog forage radish is now being sought out with a vengeance!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6797.jpg

and not only tops but roots are now the target of hungry whitetails!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6798.jpg

This mix you see, provides a near perfect balance or blend of crops that each grow and work in unison in every aspect. The rye and oats grow quickly and provide lush highly palatable grazing within weeks after planting. They can grow on almost any soils and climates and both highly sought after by deer.

Forage peas are a no brainer...deer candy and I doubt few people would argue this fact. The radish plants grow on the side lines at first because deer rarely focus on them until they are 30-45 days old which works perfectly because it allows them to grow and put down the roots they are famous for, roots that will be attractive later in the season and serve a valuable purpose in our efforts to build our soils.

Clovers...silently growing, almost unseen and all but forgotten this fall, yet next spring they will provide the most economical source of high quality protein available to us! As mentioned for some, soils will not allow planting white or red clovers and for those people there are other options but for the bulk of us from Georgia to Maine...they are the final piece of the puzzle in this part of the habitat pie.

Together...they keep whitetails beating a path to this plot year around, making them incredibly easy to pattern and...harvest...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6799.jpg

NO CROP WILL BE SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT COVER

That point is all to often forgotten and the landowners are puzzled ad frustrated when they don't see the hoped for results from their food sources. Lack of deer sightings leads them to second guess their plantings and invariably leads them to try almost any seed they think will "cure the problem" when in fact the problem lies 100% in the fact they do not have enough cover or poor cover at best.

Every property should be 90 to 95% cover if at all possible, timber or NWSG or a combination of the two...sometimes difficult when ag crops make up the bulk of the farm. Those same crops then dilute the attraction to the food sources planted solely for deer and further frustrate the landowner. Every property has limitations, positives and negatives and cover is like any ag crop. it may not thrive on poor soils so we have to work with what we have to make it better and that friends is the point of my first comments in this thread. If your hoping to plant some magic crop that will suddenly draw herds of giant whitetails to your farm....you will end up sadly disappointed. Concentrate on the cover elements of your habitat puzzle as Job 1, first priority....the rest will be easy although challenging at times to keep them from running out of feed....

The following pictures are from one farm where we have one feeding area per 80 acres and out of 4 feeding areas, one is standing soybeans which like other posts I have shared, proves interesting. Any of these deer can easily walk a few hundred yards to the soybeans but...they are quite content to bed beside their food source and not expend any unnecessary energy traveling to another place, nor are they wiling to just move to the soybeans altogether...point being that good cover will hold the deer and they will in turn take advantage of almost any food source we plant for them...no "magic" required...

I LOVE rye!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Luvrye1.jpg

oh yeah...me too!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Luvrye2.jpg

no nasty ole soybeans for me! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Luvrye3.jpg

I hate wheat!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0925.jpg

Hey...a little humor never hurts...but these deer have great cover, timber that has had TSI done and more radical hinging in process and that combined with open areas planted to NWSG that all equals GREAT COVER...and a mess of hungry deer!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0680.jpg

and that brings a lot of bucks that are not interested in eating...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bt3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0111.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0902.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0951.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bn1.jpg

Each field of the above mentioned mix is full of deer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dn1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dn2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dn3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dn4.jpg

and bucks that could care less if the field is soybeans, wheat, rye or marshmallows for that matter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bn2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bn3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bn4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bn5.jpg

If you want a field full of deer and eventually mature bucks...forget about the silly arguments over which food source or seed people do their best to convince you is best...create premium cover and the rest will fall into place....easy as pie.... ;)

[risto2351]

Paul,
In one of my plots the rye looks about 12" long.

Will it be to stemmy to attract them or will it depend on how hungry they get?

Yes there are other items in it and the GFR and PTT are not far away.

Maybe I will have to plant it a little later next year?

[dbltree]

Paul,
In one of my plots the rye looks about 12" long.

Will it be to stemmy to attract them or will it depend on how hungry they get?

Yes there are other items in it and the GFR and PTT are not far away.

Maybe I will have to plant it a little later next year?

If they get hungry enough they will still eat it but in your case i think they have plenty of food sources with the adjacent ag crops that they just have more then they need.

Plant a little later and maybe you need less as well Tony...;)

[dbltree]

It's always nice to get feedback from others who are willing to share the results of their plantings which then gives others the confidence to try something different as well. The following is a note from a friend on how his rye combination planting worked for him....

Paul,
I just wanted to tell you how well your rye combo is working on my farm. I have 58 acres of which about 30 is timber, ~ 3 acres plots, and the rest in riparian buffers or NWSG. This area has some timber but is definitely ag, with 100's of acres of corn and beans just over every fence.

I planted 1/2 acre corn, about 2 acres beans, and about 3/4 acre of your rye mix spread out on 4 small plots. Normal residential deer pop is only about 10-20 animals. Even with all this food around ALL of the rye plots are mowed to a nub! I have overseeded beans with rye before but this is the first time I have tried your actual mix and it is working amazingly well. I wouldn't have guessed it, but its like deer crack! Every single deer that comes to the plots will hit the rye mix. Every time! Cheap, easy, and best of all, it works in tiny little plots that I couldn't put beans or corn in.

Just wanted to thank you again for sharing all your knowledge on this site. My whole farm is basically shaped by your posts, and this stuff works, all of it. None of my neighbors do anything for habitat other than pheasant plots, and the deer absolutely pour into my place every year about this time. The only thing they aren't hitting yet is the straight brassica plot (what little didn't get hit by disease) but I bet that will change when the beans run out this winter.
Thanks again

Every farm is unique and different with deer numbers that vary from a couple to a hundred per square mile so the results of any habitat improvement may vary widely. That being said the rye combination mix shared in this thread will by and large work very well for most landowners across the country.

More pics from another field of winter rye/oats/peas/radish and red clover where deer have the option of choosing standing soybeans and/or winter wheat and harvested stubble fields. They are gradually eating this field to nubs also....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bc1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/bc2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dc2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0130.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1428.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1459.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/dc1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT2703.jpg

I have posted pics in other threads of 170+ class bucks searching this field for does during the rut and I expect when the weather gets cold and the snow starts flying...they'll be back to fill their bellies.... ;)

[jerred44]

I dont know if ts wrong or sad but I planted the cereal grain mix in my my wifes garden, just to see what I was in for next year, I was not able to get to illinois to plant in the late season, but I could not wait and planted it at my house in pa. It still looks lush and is going strong, weve had freezing temps several times and the mix was also under snow for a couple of days but it is still going

[dbltree]

I dont know if ts wrong or sad but I planted the cereal grain mix in my my wifes garden, just to see what I was in for next year, I was not able to get to illinois to plant in the late season, but I could not wait and planted it at my house in pa. It still looks lush and is going strong, weve had freezing temps several times and the mix was also under snow for a couple of days but it is still going

I often test plant things in our garden...usually that means we have a garden full of deer...:D

[dtk913]

dbltree,

I may have missed it somewhere on this thread, but what is the approx. cost per acre for the fall mix you show on the first page of this thread? I have planted alot of those things before, but never that specific group all together. I think it would be a great blend to try next year.

Thanks

[dbltree]

dbltree,

I may have missed it somewhere on this thread, but what is the approx. cost per acre for the fall mix you show on the first page of this thread? I have planted alot of those things before, but never that specific group all together. I think it would be a great blend to try next year.

Thanks


As with anything, costs vary but here is a rough estimate of seed and fertilizer costs per acre

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mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->$75-100 seed (rye, oats, peas, forage radish and red or white clover )
$75 200# urea (nitrogen)
Total $150-200 ****
To establish clover add the following to the cereal mix ***
$130-160 6-28-28 fertilizer
$30-50 pellet lime


if you read my threads you'll notice i encourage that people have a combination of crops within one centralized feeding area that can be easily rotated each year. This mix is easily rotated with brassicas so normally, once nutrient levels have been brought up to proper levels, I fertilize brassicas heavily, with NPK and then use only some nitrogen on the rye combination mix.

Eventually, by using the proper crop rotations you'll use far less synthetic fertilizers and experience less weed problems. Each crop in this mix performs very valuable functions aside from attracting whitetails, so eventually the over all costs compared to other programs is lowered dramatically.

Note the amounts of seed vary...those with few deer and light grazing should use the lower amounts and probably less nitrogen, or plant smaller areas. The opposite obviously would be the case where deer numbers are high and grazing intense.

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant seeds roughly 1-2" deep by lightly tilling or discing in, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover and radish seed and re-cultipack

Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September, earlier is better when adding peas and clover

[dbltree]

December 9th, 2011

I have the unique opportunity every year to not only observe my own feeding areas but those of others for whom I help manage their habitat. Sometimes on doe control and others simply sitting in a blind with a camera and observing where deer enter/exit and how deer utilize the food sources. The following are some recent observations where deer have the rye/oats/peas/radish/clover combo along with brassicas and either standing soybeans or standing corn. This post then is not about rye or even cereal grains but rather how one can use a combination of crops that requires neither corn or soybeans to be successful.

Field one...

We have a field devoted to a corn/soybean rotation in which the crop is left standing each year and a portion is divided in half with part in the rye combination mix and the other 1/2 in brassicas. We planted the rye combination all the way around the exterior and added KopuII white clover along with the red clover and will leave that area in perennial white clover. The area in rye and brassicas will be rotated yearly between the two so that both will always be in the field yet never planting the same soil twice in a row to either crop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6836.jpg

The rye strip around the exterior has a clear well worn path where they have traveled it as they graze the rye mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6837.jpg

The field is of course surrounded by cover and I could observe the whole field from an elevated blind. The first buck walked out and grazed the rye mix first and then headed to the brassicas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6847.jpg

He ate there for a few minutes then grabbed a few bites of soybeans as he walked across the field

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6848.jpg

Upon reaching the rye mix on the other side he again stopped to feed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6850.jpg

At no point did he show a preference nor did he "turn up his nose" at any of the food sources. A doe fawn came out next and she stayed in the rye mix only feet from the soybeans for 20 minutes feasting on the lush rye and oats and eventually fed for perhaps 5 minutes on the soybeans.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6855.jpg

Eventually it got to dark to take pictures but another buck entered the field and repeated the same process as the first buck...one might think if soybeans were the preferred food source they would skip the others and go straight to the beans...but such was not the case as I have shown in previous posts.

Field two...

This field is divided into strips of brassicas and the rye mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6859.jpg

all of which lay right beside a large corn field of which a substantial area has been left standing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/2011-12-07_14-41-36_760.jpg

Despite the standing corn and stubble field to feed in...they have eaten the brassicas literally to the dirt

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/2011-12-07_14-41-40_929.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/2011-12-07_14-41-54_496.jpg

and there are beaten paths thru the rye mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6860.jpg

Note here the heavily grazed rye mix is till lush and green, including the common spring oats in the mix which despite what you are led to believe are very winter hardy until temps stay in the lower teens.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/2011-12-07_14-42-00_926.jpg

The first deer to enter the field again, grabbed a few bites of the rye mix, then fed in the brassicas until he left

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6863.jpg

This buck could easily have chosen the corn field but he ignored it completely

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/LCBuck3.jpg

As it got darker I observed more deer including several large bucks entering the field, all of who fed about equally in both rye and brassicas but only one buck eventually walked up and entered the standing corn.

None of this is meant to imply that either corn or soybeans are not effective....they certainly are but on the other hand they are not necessary either, so no landowner should ever feel like they are "missing the boat" if you budget or capabilities won't allow planting these crops.

Because deer are opportunistic they will adapt to food sources closest to safe bedding as long as the feeding areas are also safe and secure. The weather here has been cold and at times snowy with temps dropping down into the single digits at times and still you can see via these pictures what I saw and others have shared the sane observations.

if there was only (insert crop), corn, beans, brassicas, rye, clover...etc.) they would still come to the same place and eat that crop. The reason for planting multiple food sources is to holed deer year around and adapt them to ALWAYS coming to that one place...not because a combination brings deer from miles around.

Sometimes it takes time for deer to adapt to a new feeding area and some landowners have observed deer walking thru standing beans to get to a corn field for instance (again...showing the power of adaption). utilizing white clover in every feeding area helps adapt deer to coming there starting in the spring and eventually they will be less nomadic as they realize they no longer have to "search" for food.

All of this is merely information to help you make the choices that are right for you, your budget and your habitat.... ;)

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I figured I would share some pictures. I posted in the management form that I had the guy skip out on planting my fall food plots this year. I had the field sprayed and ready to go for him and he never showed. Anyway the field was sprayed in the middle of july.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/304796_10150396267122448_726677447_9946103_4905585 12_n.jpg
As you can tell from the picture I was left with a field full of foxtail. It is crazy when you burn a field off how fast the foxtail can take over.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/310234_10150396266457448_726677447_9946099_2128800 774_n.jpg
After a couple hours with a mower and a tiller I had it looking decent and ready to be planted. I used a truax trillion and planted winter rye. I planted it at 150 pounds on a little over 1.5 acres.
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316338_10150396266652448_726677447_9946100_1714500 93_n.jpg
I like the view from the stand. We just need to get a little rain to get it kick started. I know it is far better to kill it off before you till it under but I decided in the last few days to do it so I didnt have the time. I also wanted to get it in before the rain on monday. I did get it planted but it rained probably less than a 1/10 of an inch. Praying for more rain. I will keep you guys posted on how it comes in. It was planted on 9/26/11

I missed out on any measurable rain untill the first week of november. So needless to say my rye never grew. I want to turn this field into half brassicas and half rye/clover mix next fall. What are my best options this spring oats/red mix? Oats/berseem mix?

[dbltree]

I want to turn this field into half brassicas and half rye/clover mix next fall. What are my best options this spring oats/red mix? Oats/berseem mix?

I like oats and berseem or crimson clover or you can mix the two but either way the annual clovers are fast growing compared to red clover for a spring planting that you will till under.

Next fall add red clover to your rye planting and let's hope we don't endure another drought like 2011 :rolleyes:

Clover seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

[IQDM]

Looks like 551 people have been visiting Dbltree's corner, the rest are uninformed! :D :way:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/DSC00282.jpg

[dbltree]

Unfortunately most people are not only uninformed but misinformed by unscrupulous advertisers...:thrwrck:

The pictures don't lie...:way:

December 18th, 2011

The winter rye mix continues to hold deer in large numbers regardless of where we have it planted or what other crops may be in the area. The mix of rye, oats, peas, radish and red clover looks something like this in mid December after temps down into the single digits

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6892.jpg

The oats are starting to slowly freeze out as planned

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6894.jpg

While the rye remains green

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6893.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6895.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6898.jpg

They are working the Groundhog forage radish over...pulling some literally out of the ground as they eat the tops. The peas are all but gone but note the red clover seedlings that will take over in the spring!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6897.jpg

I don't add turnips in the fall planting for this reason...too little growth, but they will eventually devour every last morsel nonetheless.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6896.jpg

Meanwhile deer continue to stream into the rye mix...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0312.jpg

and this field is unique because most of the deer..

A) walk thru winter wheat to get to the rye mix
B) walk beside a corn stubble on the way
C) could choose to go to a field standing soybeans a few hundred yards away

From that you can draw your own conclusions...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1113.jpg

The well worn runway is obvious

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1115.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0172.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0114-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1567.jpg

I sat in a blind with my camera and caught this big boy hungrily devouring the rye mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b1-8.jpg

Deer don't travel far if they have good bedding cover close by and doe groups come from the same places nightly

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6903.jpg

With year around food sources they quickly become adapted to it and become very predictable

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6912.jpg

As the light fades the picture quality does as well but the various groups are recognizable from literally thousands of cam pictures and reveal their habits as they utilize the same runways day after day.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6927.jpg

In this picture you can see an area where I didn't get the oats and rye mixed evenly...the oats are slowly freezing out while the winter rye remains green and deer are focusing on it now.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_6918.jpg

I utilize oats to provide extra forage in October thru mid December knowing they will freeze out leaving the winter rye to feed deer all winter yet not suffocate the young clover in the spring. The rye will acts as a nurse crop and unlike wheat, does no tiller and wreak havoc on the growing clover. If left standing the rye also makes outstanding fawning cover and deer will readily feed on the clovers in the standing rye. If oats were not added and the rye planted at heavier rates it would need to be chemically or mechanically killed in the spring...by planting the mix each landowner has options depending on time and budget and if necessary the rye can simply be left standing and eventually the rye/clover mix can all be tilled under for the next crop of brassicas.... ;)

[dbltree]

A friend sat in a blind overlooking a plot that contains strips of white clover, brassicas and soybeans overseeded with rye and noted via texts that they were eating the "green stuff". Over the years I have found that once deer become adapted to feeding in a plot, they then become adapted to eating the crops planted there, where previously they where adapted to eating crops in surrounding fields out of a need to survive.

The way to adapt deer to feeding in one plot is to always provide food there and you can never accomplish this with one crop. Time after time I see people who continue to plant clover in one plot, corn in another and brassicas in the back 40 and so on and then they wonder why deer sightings are poor.

The simplest, most economical yet most effective way to plant yer around food sources in ONE field is to use a combination of clover, brassicas and the winter rye combination (winter rye/oats/forage peas/radish and red clover). Those crops together, planted in ONE field can, over most of the nation provide year around food sources and very quickly adapt deer to always feeding there.

A very simple way to accomplish this is to plant strips of those crops within that one centralized feeding area and then screen the food sources. Here we have a strip or winter rye/oats/peas/radish and red clover and a strip of brassicas screened by Egyptian Wheat

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip3.jpg

Landowners also often make the mistake of planting the plot to far away from heavy, safe bedding area, so be certain to keep you feeding area adjacent to bedding.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip1-1.jpg

These strips will keep deer fed literally all fall, winter, spring and summer....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip5.jpg

How is that possible??

The brassicas will provide both tops and roots and the latter will feed them well into mid winter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip7.jpg

The winter rye combination will literally feed them from late August for a full year if necessary....the oats until mid December, the peas and radish until they are eaten or well into winter, the winter rye all winter and into spring, the red clover all spring and summer until it is tilled under and rotated to brassicas in mid July.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip4.jpg

White clover has been established with the rye around the field perimeter to round out the year around food supply and diversify our food sources but this "green stuff" is drawing deer from even the neighbors combined grain fields and they are beating a path to it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip6.jpg

These deer are already adapted to finding all of their needs met and because this field is surrounded by NWSG and timber they will bed there, have their fawns there and literally spend there lives there.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip2-1.jpg

In the spring the dead brassicas will be tilled under and planted to oats and berseem clover which will in turn be tilled under to rotate to the rye combination. Planting multiple crops in one field not only adapts your deer to always coming there but allows us to rotate crops yearly, build up organic matter, control weed problems, lower fertilizer and herbicide inputs and increase hunting success.

Planting one crop is a recipe for failure because once the crop is gone...so are the deer...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2011-12-19_15-19-35_61.jpg

If you desire to succeed I would urge you to avoid these common mistakes...

1) Planting multiple plots
a) Plant ONE centrally located feeding area per 80-120 acres

2) Planting only one food source
b) Plant a combination of crops (not all mixed together but separately within the plot)

3) Planting multiple crops but in different plots
c) Plant ALL the crops within ONE feeding area, divide the feeding area into strips or blocks and plant all crops in one field

4)Planting in an open area too far from cover
d) To the extent possible, locate your single feeding area immediately adjacent to bedding cover and then screen any open areas with Egyptian Wheat, sorghum and eventually conifers for a permanent screen.

5) Poor or no bedding cover
e) People are often perplexed when they see few deer which usually stems from the fact they have wide open timber where deer do not feel safe. Utilize timber management and hinging techniques to improve bedding and plant open fields to NWSG.

6) Success is determined solely by observation
f) No landowner can observe deer on their property 24/7 and because many of the previously noted problems may not have been addressed, deer are often nocturnal. Use trail cams with field scan modes to determine real usage of your feeding areas as well as deer using your property altogether.

7) Planting too much feed in relationship to cover
g) Our goal should be 90-95% cover which may be a combination of timber and NWSG, so those with 50-80% food and little cover will experience poor results. In some cases due to agriculture operations there is little one can do except be realistic about deer sightings and hunting success. Work on creating the very best cover you can and minimize your feeding area and encourage fall tillage of ag crop fields after harvest.

Success is a combination of many factors based on the culmination of a great deal of knowledge put into practical use but often people ignore this and place all their hopes on one crop (for instance) and then wonder why they failed. I have had many failures in my lifetime and learned the hard way, I refused to listen and stubbornly ignored people who tried to teach me. Eventually I figured out that my Dad and my teachers were right and I enlisted the help of people willing to teach me (in this case math skills).

I'm willing to help anyone and everyone I can, be successful just as others helped me decades ago, so if you have questions that don't seem to get answered in this forum, please feel free to email me at dbltree2000@yahoo.com. Look over the "problems" and see if you have addressed those completely and never consider habitat changes a failure after only one year, I tell landowners to expect three years for complete results so have patience as well.... ;)

[crs740]

Do you beleive it is necessary to use both oats and winter rye where your deer population is not the same as you have in Iowa? I do not have a huge number of deer that use my property (but will be higing a of trees this winter to help with more cover) so I am not sure it is necessary to plant both. I was thinking of planting rye/peas/radish/clover. When you mentioned mechanically killy rye, I assume you mean by cutting it, correct? So that the clover can estalish itself?

[dbltree]

Do you believe it is necessary to use both oats and winter rye where your deer population is not the same as you have in Iowa? I do not have a huge number of deer that use my property (but will be hinging a of trees this winter to help with more cover) so I am not sure it is necessary to plant both. I was thinking of planting rye/peas/radish/clover. When you mentioned mechanically kill rye, I assume you mean by cutting it, correct? So that the clover can establish itself?

The oats may not be necessary in your situation but you may want to increase the percentage of peas. They are the candy in the mix and will help adapt deer to your plot.

For those not sure of what "mix" we are referring too...this is what I have found to be most effective....;)

I mix the following:

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant seeds roughly 1-2" deep by lightly tilling or discing in, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover and radish seed and re-cultipack

Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September, earlier is better when adding peas and clover

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I missed out on any measurable rain untill the first week of november. So needless to say my rye never grew.

Hold on I spoke too soon. I was on this farm first shotgun season and there was no evidence of rye growing at all. I went back today for the first time since and had to snap a picture. I know it is really hard to see but there are sprouts of rye everywhere. Is it possible this stuff is growing with the upper 40 to 50 degree weather? I figured the soil temp would be way too low. Now I am wondering will this continue to grow next spring or will it sprout and die with the colder weather ahead?
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/380962_10150544814257448_726677447_10623289_754241 184_n.jpg

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I am having a hard time figuring out why it is growing now? It was planted on sept 26th never got rained on untill the first week of november and then another time the second week of november. There were a lot warmer temps then and it never sprouted. Why did it decide to grow now?

[Daver]

I am having a hard time figuring out why it is growing now? It was planted on sept 26th never got rained on untill the first week of november and then another time the second week of november. There were a lot warmer temps then and it never sprouted. Why did it decide to grow now?

That is one of the strong points of rye...almost nothing grows later into the late fall than rye. Similar to your situation, I received essentially no rain on my rye either...until about 4-5 weeks after I had broadcast it. It too has grown about like what your pictures show and all of that growth was in late October into November.

[dbltree]

I am having a hard time figuring out why it is growing now? It was planted on sept 26th never got rained on untill the first week of november and then another time the second week of november. There were a lot warmer temps then and it never sprouted. Why did it decide to grow now?

Rye will germinate at 36 degrees and grow at 34 so since it didn't receive rain until November, it waited to germinate until it did. As Dave mentions that's just one of the great attributes of rye and in the spring it will probably take off and grow like mad! :D

[dbltree]

December 23rd, 2011

The concept of planting ALL the food sources in one centralized feeding area is confusing for some who have developed bad habits that are now hard to break (something I know all about by the way...) Even if you are forced to plant several small plots (because of topography/field size/family etc.) you can still plant ALL the food sources in each field.

I have repeatedly mentioned that the reason for this is to adapt deer to always, always ALWAYS coming to ONE place, adapting them to using the same runways coming from the same bedding areas, 24/7, 365 days a year. Unfortunately there is always someone who was sleeping in class (been there done that) so they plant one thing and then are disappointed and frustrated with the results."How does dbltree get all these deer to come into those plots EVERY day and I can not? I guess I'll plant wheat...that will fix it....

No crop alone can "fix" the problem although white clover comes very near being the one crop that can help adapt deer to one feeding area for the longest period of time.

This pic is a cross section view of a very small area where I have a strip of winter rye/oats/peas/radish and clover, a strip of perennial white clover (Alice) and a strip of brassicas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6935.jpg

We'll come back to that "view" but note that everything is grazed to the ground even though....when I turn in place it reveals standing soybeans!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6938.jpg

That's crazy...right??! You mean deer will eat the rye combination, brassicas and white clover with standing soybeans ripe for the pickin'!?!? You bet!! They are eating the big Purple Top Turnips like they were Red Delicious apples!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6936.jpg

and mowing the rye combination to the dirt!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_6940.jpg

"Gee...I heard/read that soybeans would trump almost anything!?"....guess not huh?

I NEVER advise planting only ONE crop unless it is a case of having no equipment in which case pure white clover can be the next best alternative. It's possible to frost seed it and maintain it with herbicides via a backpack sprayer so there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule but for most people....there is usually no good nor valid reason to ever plant only one crop in one field. So when someone comments..."I planted rye and was disappointed" ...well....I know who was sleeping in class....

Let's go back to that first view...time after time people say "I didn't observe as many deer"...which of course leads one to wonder all kinds of questions because many people have a lot to learn about hunting itself. Other then in the late season sitting on a food plot is a low odds place to kill a mature buck so one should not be "observing" it in the first place. Secondly, as we all now (or should) there are dozens of factors that affect daylight deer movement, everything from moon phases, weather, roaming dogs, trespassers hunting pressure and the list goes on, so "observing"...while important, is a very ineffective way to determine plot usage or deer living on your property.

Most movement is likely to be nocturnal...especially if you are hunting the plot itself!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0106.jpg

Trail cams then are the only really 100% effective means of allowing us to determine the success of our habitat program...in this pic they are feeding on the brassicas (at this point turnips)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1372.jpg

here...the rye/oats/peas/radish combination

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1577.jpg

note the difference in only a mere 2 minutes...what we miss without cams

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1584.jpg

I hate to make derogatory or insulting comments but frankly....unless one is blind or living under a rock, it would impossible to look at thousands of pictures showing hundreds of deer on farms spread over several counties and not see how effective these crop combinations are. It would also be a stretch to say..." I don't know about rye...I think they like wheat better"....those people have pinned their hopes completely on one thing and then are missing out on ALL the other habitat improvements necessary to have a complete and successful program.

In this view the cam takes thousands of pictures a week of deer eagerly feeding on a strip of rye/oats/peas and radish as well as a strip of white clover....all of which is right beside a field of standing soybeans....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Ryenclover4.jpg

It doesn't matter how bad the weather gets

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Ryenclover3.jpg

nor that I am not there to "observe"....the camera reveals the undeniable truth

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Ryenclover2.jpg

They take advantage of ALL the food sources in part because they are adapted to coming there

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Ryenclover1.jpg

and are just as content eating the white clover on the right

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0966.jpg

as the winter rye combo on the left

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT3498.jpg

or soybeans in the background

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Ryenclover4.jpg

Day or night....they are here....365 days a year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT1103.jpg

Friends....I have been disappointed and frustrated too so I know how you feel but I found real solutions and they have allowed me to be successful....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/8pt-1.jpg

Don't pin your hopes on one crop or even food plots themselves but rather on ALL the habitat improvements and tools necessary to be successful at increasing your odds of harvesting mature bucks. Learn new hunting tactics that are far more productive then watching a food source by hunting funneled runways leading between bedding and feeding areas. Screen your property and plots with Egyptian Wheat, conifers and shrubs, create thick bedding areas using TSI and hinging and allow deer to feel secure by edge feathering the timber. Use trail cams to monitor funneled runways and feeding areas to have a better handle on what deer are actually living on your property.

Utilize the following crop combination in one centralized feeding area per 80-120 acres and adapt deer to always coming there, giving them no reason to ever leave your property (other then rutting bucks)



Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

Another year has came and went....I hope yours was successful and and enjoyable! I wish all of you a blessed Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year..... :way:

[SWBUCKHNTR]

Hey paul I was wondering if you have ever broadcast a fall mix into soy beans right as they are losing their leaves? I am wanting to get as much food in one area this next year and was wondering if this is an opition?

[dbltree]

Hey paul I was wondering if you have ever broadcast a fall mix into soy beans right as they are losing their leaves? I am wanting to get as much food in one area this next year and was wondering if this is an option?

I overseed rye, radish and red clover as the leaves start to yellow....oats do not germinate well on the soil surface. Peas can also work fairly well IF you get plenty of rain.

Overseed rye at 100-150#'s per acre, radish at 5#'s and red clover at 12-15 (for spring forage(

[Sligh1]

I tell you what, I am glad I didn't put all my eggs in one basket this year for a billion reasons BUT one additional.... I LOVE beans late season BUT, with this warm weather and no snow- they are not the ticket right now, I wish I had even more turnips, radishes, rye, clover, etc. I knew that warm winters would put them on the forages, cereals & brassicas BUT I sure had no idea we'd get this poor/warm weather. Thank goodness of the Dbltree Buffet approach with a variety of food plot types/plantings. Geesh.

[SWBUCKHNTR]

I overseed rye, radish and red clover as the leaves start to yellow....oats do not germinate well on the soil surface. Peas can also work fairly well IF you get plenty of rain.

Overseed rye at 100-150#'s per acre, radish at 5#'s and red clover at 12-15 (for spring forage(

Thanks always a big help I appreciate every bit.

[OKplotter]

Dbltree,

I'm going to expand a plot for next year since the deer ate my rye mix to the dirt. I want to get something going in this new plot this spring to begin improving the soil. I think I remember reading in one of your threads that you prefer oats and some kind of annual clover for new spring plots. However I can't seem to find it anywhere now. How much should I plant and which clover is best for a hilltop pipeline right of way that is compacted from being driven on? Thanks in advance.

Doug

[dbltree]

Dbltree,

I'm going to expand a plot for next year since the deer ate my rye mix to the dirt. I want to get something going in this new plot this spring to begin improving the soil. I think I remember reading in one of your threads that you prefer oats and some kind of annual clover for new spring plots. However I can't seem to find it anywhere now. How much should I plant and which clover is best for a hilltop pipeline right of way that is compacted from being driven on? Thanks in advance.

Doug


I plant oats and any annual clover which might include berseem, crimson or arrowleaf clovers. Yo may find them at your local co-op or you can order from outside sources and ship seed to your door.

Clover Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Plant roughly 60#'s or 2 bushel of oats along with the 8-12 berseem clover or 10-15 crimson clover, you can clip the oats off mid summer or allow them to mature and mow/shred them before tilling them under for the rye mix and end up with some free oat seed...:way:

[DHaffner]

Thank you for your epic food plot threads, they are the best out there!:way::way:

[dbltree]

Thank you for your epic food plot threads, they are the best out there!:way::way:

Thanks friend...Happy New Year :way:

[dbltree]

January 1, 2011

Forage peas and forage radish

The winter rye, oats, forage peas, forage radish, red clover mix is still being grazed hard although repeated nights in the single digits has started to kill out the oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/ryeoatpearadishmix.jpg

Despite the fact I repeatedly focus on the fact this is a mix and how each plant in the mix serves a purpose, people often leave out the important elements such as peas and radish plants. Forage peas, be it Austrian Winter Peas or forage peas like 4010 peas are the candy in the mix that makes it irresistible to whitetails and helps attract and hold deer on our property.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Pea1.jpg

The peas have all been grazed hard and I had to really search for the only surviving remnants

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/pea2.jpg

Fall planted peas that are not grazed can easily be a foot or more high but as you can see these are barely and inch or two high.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Pea3.jpg

Peas are tender succulent and tasty morsels that whitetails cannot resist and help us compete against neighboring crop fields

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Pea4.jpg

Peas are not unlike baby soybeans that we see whitetails feeding in during late spring early summer months but the difference is that peas are very cold hardy and often if not eaten to the dirt will survive the winter under a blanket of snow.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Pea5.jpg

The Groundhog Forage Radish is another "candy plant" that deer cannot resist and in every field the GHFR plants are grazed to the dirt

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/GHFR1.jpg

and eventually they will eat the remaining roots as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/GHFR2-1.jpg

I have nearly 20 feeding areas on 8 farms that have the rye/oats/peas/radish/red clover mix planted in them in an area that covers two counties and each of them has been grazed to the ground. Talk is cheap of course and I never expect anyone to believe in the effectiveness of this mix without solid, consistent and undeniable pictorial proof...not from one day, one week or one month but from the time it comes up in September until I till it under for brassicas next summer....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d1-3.jpg

The cam monitoring this field had over 4000+ pics in 30 days...common on any fields I plant and certainly nothing extraordinary

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d10.jpg

Every day regardless of the weather

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d12.jpg

they graze like cattle in the rye mix

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d14.jpg

and in this field have nothing left but the rye at this point

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d21.jpg

The red clover will take off in the spring to continue feeding deer until tilled under for a rotation to brassicas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b4-3.jpg

Whitetails that have food sources in one central feeding area become adapted to it if they have it year around

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b5a.jpg

and that's what keeps the big boys hanging around

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b7a.jpg

Some recent questions...

Can I frost seed red or white clover into winter rye without concern about the allelopathic effects of the rye?

Absolutely! Always seed the clovers in the fall if you can because that insures they are already established and will grow rapidly in the spring but if you forgot or didn't think to add clovers this fall you can easily and effectively frost seed white, red or alsike clovers into the rye in March (when ground is freezing at night and thawing during the day...mid to late march in my area)

Clover seeds will germinate earlier then common warm season annual weeds and long before rye has developed allelopathic chemicals that inhibit small weed seeds from germinating.

If I plant forage radish with the rye can I safely rotate to a July planted brassica mix without concern for disease

You bet! The fall planted radish plants will first...be eaten to the dirt and then any root that is left will quickly decompose by mid to late winter and 4-6 months will have passed before planting the next brassicas, more then enough time to break any disease/pest cycles.

I want to start the rye and brassica rotation but what cover crop can I plant this spring?

Oats and annual clovers like berseem, crimson and arrowleaf are great cover crops that feed deer all spring and summer and then provide biomass and nitrogen when tilled under for brassicas in July or the rye mix in late August.

A summary of what I plant is listed below....



Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[SWBUCKHNTR]

It is like you read my mind. I am sitting here today going through what to plant next year and when to plant it and at what rates. I have an 11 acre field that is gonna be my hotspot from now on. I was trying to decide how to break it down and then you post this:way:. This is what I am thinking, three of the four outside edges planted into switch about 3 acres of the field. The next area will be 3 acres of corn. Followed by a break of egyptian wheat with 3 more acres of beans "inside" the ew screen. That leaves an acre for brassicas and an acre for rye mix and a little border of clover around the beans, brassicas, and rye. The field is a perfect square so I figure with the corn and then the ew screen shaped like this [ it will really keep that pesky neighbor to my west from being able to shoot into my field.

[dbltree]

Sounds like a great plan SWBUCKHNTR...keep us posted this next year...:way:

I always enjoy getting pictures from other landowners and these were sent in from a friend in South Dakota (SoDakarcher) where he planted the cereal grain mix on his 180 acre farm there.

Pretty country and lot's of cover in the native warm season grass!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC00083.jpg

The rye mix received only a 1/4" of rain after planting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC00084.jpg

so while it could have done better, it's not to shabby considering the lack of rain!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC00087.jpg

This coming year he plans to sub-divide the plots and include white clover and brassica plantings within the same plot

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC00089.jpg

The winter rye in the mix is still green and he estimates 20-30 deer are using his feeding areas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC00085.jpg

all of which are literally torn up and covered with deer scat

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/DSC00090.jpg

This is Bryan's first year at planting food for whitetails and is delighted with the results of the rye mix which is the most dependable and easy mix to start with and then one can easily move forward into the crop rotation where white clover, brassicas and the rye mix are all grown in strips or blocks within the same field.

This is the mixes that I encourage landowners to plant in one centralized feeding area per 80-120 acres that will allow you to feed deer year around and thereby adapt them to always feeding there and in turn always living on your property. You must of course have excellent bedding cover in the form of timber and/or NWSG or food sources may go unnoticed...

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot...plant with the rye mix below and soil test for needed P&K/lime requirements. Lacking a soil test I use 400#'s of 6-28-28 and 500#'s of pel lime in my area.

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost. Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea, 400#'s of 6-28-28 (or comparable such as 400#'s triple 19 ) Add lime per soil test. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring and no fertilizer is necessary at that time.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas only 100-200#'s of urea may be needed but first time plantings may need to be fertilized and limed as the noted for the brassicas.

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

For great examples of how to lay out a feeding area and incorporate ALL the food sources into one feeding area, read thru the Getting Started thread for detailed aerial layouts.

Getting Started (http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3063)

[crs740]

When you plant the oats/annual clover do you put down any fertilizer, if so what amount? What month do you typically plant the oats/clover? April?

[dbltree]

When you plant the oats/annual clover do you put down any fertilizer, if so what amount? What month do you typically plant the oats/clover? April?

If the field has been previously fertilized and limed (as if for brassicas the following year)...no...however if this is a first time virgin plot then it's a great time to get P&K and lime tilled in at planting.

Mid April to mid May is most of the Midwest is proper planting time for oats and annual clovers

[Qdmaer]

Paul, I plan on drilling your rye mix in next year with a truax no-till. Wondering how many lbs i should drill this seed in at per acre?

[dbltree]

Paul, I plan on drilling your rye mix in next year with a truax no-till. Wondering how many lbs i should drill this seed in at per acre?

Plant as noted below...lower rates for low deer density but higher rates for high deer numbers...;)

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas only 100-200#'s of urea may be needed but first time plantings may need to be fertilized and limed as the noted for the brassicas.

[dbltree]

January 8th, 2012

When I am asked to start a new feeding area from scratch where I am dealing with sod (such as that found in a CRP field) I always start with the winter rye combination mix. The mix works great to establish white clover around the perimeter, to break down the sod and to adapt deer to feeding somewhere they have never fed before. Never once has it let me down on any counts....even when it has to compete with corn a hundred yards away....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/1-05-2012Lee.jpg

Cams verify use night....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0171.jpg

and day

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0245.jpg

The tender succulent winter rye and oats is irresistible to whitetails

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0318.jpg

and the peas and radish are impossible to pass up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0486.jpg

The rye keeps growing when temps are above 34 degrees and keeps them fed all winter long

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0774.jpg

and the red clover in the mix keeps them fed all spring and summer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0991.jpg

This coming summer we will expand the feeding area (it's grazed to the dirt now) and incorporate the brassica mix into half to provide a combination of year around food sources that will adapt deer to coming to one central feeding area. It will be screened with Egyptian Wheat to make them even more comfortable during daylight hours.


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover.

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[dbltree]

Hairy Vetch

I use red clover with my fall winter rye/oats/peas/radish mix to provide a high quality source of spring and summer feed while at the same time producing up to 2 1/2 tons of organic matter and as much as 130#'s of nitrogen per acre. Clover however does not do well on light, sandy dry soils so one option where improving poor soils is imperative is adding hairy vetch.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/hairyvetch.jpg

Vicia villosa

Type: winter annual or summer annual legume
Roles: N source, weed suppressor, topsoil conditioner, reduce erosion

Few legumes match hairy vetch for spring residue production or nitrogen contribution. Widely adapted and winter hardy through Hardiness Zone 4 and into Zone 3 (with snow cover), hairy vetch is a top N provider in temperate and subtropical regions. The cover grows slowly in fall, but root development continues over winter. Growth quickens in spring, when hairy vetch becomes a sprawling vine up to 12 feet long. Field height rarely exceeds 3 feet unless the vetch is supported by another crop. Its abundant, viney biomass can be a benefit and a challenge. The stand smothers spring weeds, however, and can help you replace all or most N fertilizer needs for late-planted crops.

Hairy vetch is not the most attractive forage but forage nonetheless and far better then no cover crop at all. It far exceeds the value of a non-legume like buckwheat at all levels yet is rarely used simply because few people are aware of it's value as a soil builder. Unlike clovers hairy vetch will grow on poor sandy soils and like clovers can produce a significant amount of nitrogen that can be utilized by the next crop (such as brassicas)

Nitrogen source

Hairy vetch delivers heavy contributions of mineralized N (readily available to the following cash crop). It can provide sufficient N for many vegetable crops, partially replace N fertilizer for corn or cotton, and increase cash crop N efficiency for higher yield.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/7-23vetchsmallLarg.jpg

While vetch can improve soil tilth it is not as adept at building organic matter because it breaks down quickly, however winter rye (which also grows well on sand) can feed deer all fall, winter and early spring...AND provide long lasting organic matter.

Hairy vetch improves topsoil tilth, creating a loose and friable soil structure. Vetch doesn’t build up long-term soil organic matter due to its tendency to break down completely. Vetch is a succulent crop, with a relatively low carbon to nitrogen ratio. Its C:N ratio ranges from 8:1 to 15:1, expressed as parts of C for each part of N. Rye C:N ratios range from 25:1 to 55:1, showing why it persists much longer under similar conditions than does vetch. Residue with a C:N ratio of 25:1 or more tends to immobilize N.

A great combination on poor soils that will not grow red clover might be winter rye, crimson clover and hairy vetch (such as in this picture) a combination that also naturally suppresses weeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/crimson_rye_vetch_JMSweb_preview.jpg

Early weed suppression

The vigorous spring growth of fall-seeded hairy vetch out-competes weeds, filling in where germination may be a bit spotty. Residue from killed hairy vetch has a weak allelopathic effect, but it smothers early weeds mostly by shading the soil. Its effectiveness wanes as it decomposes, falling off significantly after about three or four weeks. For optimal weed control with a hairy vetch mulch, select crops that form a quick canopy to compensate for the thinning mulch or use high-residue cultivators made to handle it. Mixing rye and crimson clover with hairy vetch (seeding rates of 30, 10, and 20 lb./A, respectively) extends weed control to five or six weeks, about the same as an all-rye mulch. Even better, the mix provides a legume N boost, protects soil in fall and winter better than legumes, yet avoids the potential crop-suppressing effect of a pure rye mulch on some vegetables.

There other positives about utilizing hairy vetch

Moisture-thrifty

Hairy vetch is more drought tolerant than other vetches. It needs a bit of moisture to establish in fall and to resume vegetative growth in spring, but relatively little over winter when above-ground growth is minimal.

Phosphorus scavenger

Hairy vetch showed higher plant phosphorus (P) concentrations than crimson clover, red clover, or a crimson/ryegrass mixture in a Texas trial. Soil under hairy vetch also had the lowest level of P remaining after growers applied high amounts of poultry litter prior to vegetable crops

Keep in mind that if you can grow clovers that rec clover is far more palatable and attractive to whitetails then hairy vetch so in most cases would be the superior option but hairy vetch is an excellent cover crop where clovers do not do well.

Chickling vetch is very useful for a quick spring planted cover crop and can be planted with oats and either berseem or crimson clover in the spring.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/AcGreenfix03.jpg

This is a mix that can follow dead brassicas to provide summer forage until tilled under for the rotation to the rye mix.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/chicklingvetch.jpg

A common mistake is to leave your plot bare during the spring and summer months but "dirt plots" don't attract whitetails and cost you money because you could be utilizing a legume cover crop that can fix nitrogen, pull up sub soil nutrients, build up soil organic matter, suppress weeds AND...provide a source of spring and summer forage that helps adapt deer to feeding in one central feeding area....year around.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cover%20Crops/ChicklingvetchAug2704.jpg

Some possible options listed below utilizing vetch rather then red clover on poor soils


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

Vetch seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=63)

Clover seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Effective Cover Cropping in the Midwest (http://vimeopro.com/swcs/swcs-cover-crops-2011)

[SWBUCKHNTR]

Hey guys just wondering if any of you got much for snow? We have got pry 4-5 inches and it is still snowing. Just wondering if the rye mix gets covered up how well the deer dig for it? I am adding it to my plot next year just wondering how well it attracts them after snow?

[jerred44]

to the people that do this mix to establish clover, for the next year, when do u clip or spray to kill the rye in the spring?

[Fix]

I dont clip it as i,ve noticed that the dying rye helps hold moisture during the heat of summer.The rye doesnt shade much because it is usually breaking down by then.

[dbltree]

Hey guys just wondering if any of you got much for snow? We have got pry 4-5 inches and it is still snowing. Just wondering if the rye mix gets covered up how well the deer dig for it? I am adding it to my plot next year just wondering how well it attracts them after snow?

They will dig thru a foot of snow if necessary assuming of course that they have good bedding close by. Pics below show them feeding in perhaps 2-4" of snow.

to the people that do this mix to establish clover, for the next year, when do u clip or spray to kill the rye in the spring?

If the rye was not seeding to heavily (roughly 50#'s per acre) then as mentioned it can be left standing, but also can be clipped or sprayed with clethodim...lot's of options.

January 22nd, 2012

Snow and bitter cold temps have finally arrived here in SE Iowa but whitetails are still finding plenty to eat in the rye combination plantings in our centralized feeding areas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7172.jpg

The winter rye is still green as it was this fall and providing attractive high quality forage.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7174.jpg

They scratch around for what is left of the Austrian Winter Peas and any remaining forage radish tops.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7171.jpg

The red clover is the unseen component at this point but is waiting to spring to life and feed deer all summer until tilled under for a rotation to brassicas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7173.jpg

The deer just keep coming and by providing year around food sources....they don't go anywhere else!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0635.jpg

They are already adapted to coming here and there is nothing that will change their daily plans

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0663.jpg

The common mistake is planting a "kill plot" rather then a year around feeding area

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b4-4.jpg

Where does one suppose they will go with no feed left?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b3-4.jpg

and then people wonder why they are so hard to pattern each fall

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b2-6.jpg

Plant year around food sources in one central feeding area for every 80-120 acres, surround it with premium cover and whitetails will become very...predictable

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b1-9.jpg

I am a die hard archery hunter and not much for the firearms seasons but when the sun came out one evening I volunteered to take out a couple does on this farm.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_7197.jpg

Turns out the rye...is to die for!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_7198.jpg

I killed a couple and called it a night

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/IMG_7199.jpg

Soon the rye will be the place to find sheds too and in the spring...fawns will be born in it and the cycle of adaption and predictable patterns will continue.... ;)


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[jerred44]

When do u spray or mow usually? If I planted heavy on the rye? mid May? early May?

[whitetail fanatic]

to the people that do this mix to establish clover, for the next year, when do u clip or spray to kill the rye in the spring?

I planted 100# per acre rye with 12# per acre medium red clover, and never mowed or killed the rye and the clover did fantastic. I mowed the plots one time last summer, but by then the rye was fully mature and seeded out. The rye did not overcrowd the clover, even at 100# per acre. The only reason I mowed it was to get more fresh growth out of the clover because it was so tall and thick by mid July. Below I will copy what I posted from Paul's thread on the QDM forum, this was posted there on October 12, 2011.


I planted medium red clover with rye in late August 2010. Below and in the following posts are some pics from this past spring, the first on a frosty April 29th morning when the red clover only had a few inches of growth (although they were heavily browsing it or it would be taller. The next pics are on May 22 and by that time, it has a good amount of growth. The pics in the post after this one, the pics are from June 25, as the rye was seeding out and the clover was very tall and thick. Notice the heavy browsing on the clover. They were feeding heavily on it all spring and summer.

Frosty morning turkey hunt, April 29th
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000575.jpg


http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000574.jpg

May 22nd
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000638.jpg


http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000636.jpg

[whitetail fanatic]

Note: see previous post for a description of these pics.
June 25th
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000668.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000669.jpg

Deer have been heavily browsing the red clover all spring, summer, and fall
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000673.jpg

[whitetail fanatic]

I planted several plots with the rye and red clover, and did not mow any of them until July 10th, by which time the rye had all seeded out and turned brown. This was about 100# rye and 12# red clover per acre, and the rye did not crowd it out at all. I never dreamed I could grow such a nice weed free clover plot. I had always spring planted it and ended up with lots of weeds. Planting clover with rye in late summer like Lickcreek suggests is the perfect way to get clover started. The only reason I mowed it was to freshen the clover up and to keep it from getting overly mature.
The pics below (taken 10-9-11 last weekend) was one of the plots planted August 2010 and was mowed once on July 10 and never again all year. The deer have kept it clipped to 4" all year!! It probably would have needed mowing a couple more times if it had not been for the heavy browsing from the deer. They kept it mowed for me.
thanks to late August seeding with rye not a single weed to be found! :D You might notice in a few spots, there is actually rye that reseeded itself after I mowed it in July and the seed layed there until we got enough rain to germinate it. The only spots where that happeded was where the thatch from mowing was so thick that it actuallly killed the clover out, allowing a spot for the rye to reseed. Otherwise, the clover just drowned everything out.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000713.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000712.jpg

[whitetail fanatic]

Now for some pics of this year's seeding of rye/radish/clover. Planted 100# rye, 7# radish, and 12# of Mammoth red OR 12# of Crimson clover per acre.
Did about 30% of the total acreage with the crimson, and the rest got mammoth red for comparison. According to Sagitarius who posts on here, the Crimson should survive our winter.
All of the following pics were the mix noted above and planted the same day, August 16, 2011. The soil was bone dry from the drought we had this summer, so the seed sat there until we finally got the first good rain in 2 months or more, on August 23rd. The seed was germinating within a day or 2after that.
Soils quality varies greatly across the areas that I planted. Everything was seeded at the same rates with a grain drill, and same amount of chicken litter plus urea/potash/DAP on everything. Where the soil was loose with good amounts of organic matter, the radishes are growing much faster, like this:
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000698.jpg
and getting some nice sized roots already
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000699.jpg
Where the soil is compacted and low in organic matter, the difference is day and night. Notice the difference in the left to right side of this pic. The radishes will hardly even grow in some spots, which leaves only rye and clover
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000705.jpg

Working on improving some really poor soils in places like this. Now I know where to go heavier on the chicken litter next year. Notice how the clover does much better than the radish, or even the rye in these spots
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000703.jpg

[whitetail fanatic]

another pic showing healthy soils on the bottom, poor soil on the top
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000700.jpg
7 Foot tall 3rd year stand of CIR Swithgrass behind this plot! It was burned May 20, 2011, going into it's 3rd growth season.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000706.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000708.jpg
Notice the 7 foot tall 3rd year CIR Switchgrass towering over the top of these deer!
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000719.jpg

[whitetail fanatic]

Hey guys just wondering if any of you got much for snow? We have got pry 4-5 inches and it is still snowing. Just wondering if the rye mix gets covered up how well the deer dig for it? I am adding it to my plot next year just wondering how well it attracts them after snow?

We had 10" of snow over our rye, clover, radish plot and this weekend it was all torn up by deer feeding in it. The only thing left for them to eat in those plots of ours now is the rye because the radish have been devoured by now and the clover is tiny at best (until spring when it explodes with growth). I'll try to get some pictures this coming weekend. I've seen them dig through almost 2 feet of snow to get at radish, rye, turnips, alfalfa, etc. Like Paul says, if you have good cover nearby, and have the deer trained to feed in your plots by providing year round food sources, they will eat whatever is there, even rye that is only a couple inches tall and buried under deep snow.

[dbltree]

Thanks so much for the great pics and updates Wes! Very helpful to everyone following this thread! :way:

[Sligh1]

No kidding, that is text book/magazine quality stuff right there, looking awesome. You must have some amazing hunting up there on your farm!! how has the hunting changed on your managed piece over the years? a ton better than when you got it I would imagine? A lot better than most avg WI pieces I would assume as well? Looking good!

[whitetail fanatic]

No kidding, that is text book/magazine quality stuff right there, looking awesome. You must have some amazing hunting up there on your farm!! how has the hunting changed on your managed piece over the years? a ton better than when you got it I would imagine? A lot better than most avg WI pieces I would assume as well? Looking good!

Thanks guys! The changes have been very dramatic since we started intense habitat improvements and food plots 15 years ago. Before we started, our 195 acres did not hold many deer because the cover was not as good, and we didn't have food plots, and we are surrounded by professional farmers who grow some awesome alfalfa, corn and beans. Now we can't keep the deer away. Far better than the average WI hunting. Most areas of our state has very low deer numbers now because of over 15 years of heavy doe kills. We have taken quite a few 4.5 and 5.5 year old bucks the past 7 years on this farm, all of them with the bow and arrow. We have to take a good number of does every year to keep from getting overrun with them because our habitat has become so attractive. As Paul stresses, great cover and centrally located year round food sources is the key. We also make sure there is very little human disturbance from late August until after deer hunting seasons close each year on the farm. Basically the only disturbance during that time is walking in and out from bowhunting.

[plainjim]

I have 30 acres of partially logged private forest land located in the Colville National forest of NE Washington State. It borders Nat forest and is at elev 3,600'. Summers are hot & dry with very cold winters, precip is less than 18"/year. This is not farmland, no crops in the area so Whitetail deer density is lower than you have in the midwest but still a decent population in the area. I am an Avid bowhunter and only hunt this property during the Nov rut hunt. I would like to plant a fall attractant crop on the small openings and logging skid trails on the property. What is your opinion of the SucraSeed Sweet Spot mix for this purpose? I know that you advise using Winter rye (grain crop) over Ryegrass and I do like the mix that you recomend but my situation might be different than most. There is abundant natural browse during Spring and Summer months so am looking for something to attract and hold deer during Nov/Dec when natural browse is dying out. Need something to withstand dry and cold conditions. Soil PH is in the good range and not much in the way of fertilizer is needed. Some of these skid trails are shaded and some in more open areas. Looking for advice.

[plainjim]

Information and ingredients for the Sucraseed-Sweet Spot-Northern Mix can be found at http://www.outsidepride.com/seed/deer-food-plots/sweet-spot-northern-mix.html. Instead of winter rye it has AberDart and AberAvon High Sugar Perennial Ryegrass seed along with other things. Will this Ryegrass be as desirable to the deer in November as winter rye? Would it work better on my logging skid trails? BTW my property is located in USDA plant hardiness zone 5 at 3,600' elev.

[dbltree]

My brother lived in your area of WA for a while before moving to Idaho so I am familiar with the soils and lack of rainfall. He has to irrigate even in Idaho to grow anything at all so I have doubts that either the SucraSeed mix or winter rye will grow.

That said winter rye is far more drought resistant then the high sugar ryegrass but you may need to experiment with both and see if either might survive? We had severe drought here in Iowa this summer....and almost nothing survived.

Keep us posted whatever you try...I'd love to hear what you come up with?

[plainjim]

Thanks for replying. I know what you are saying. It is difficult conditions but I will try different options untill I find something that works but relying on September rain for germination has poor odds of happening. Another thing I have considered is to plant the Whitetail Institute Imperial Extreme mix (http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/products/extreme.html) in the Spring after the snowmelt when soils are wet and we do get Spring rain in April/May. They claim that it will survive with 15" or more of rain, is heat resistant and cold tolerant. However I don't know if this is just hype and it is not clear what seeds are in the mix. I also don't know if it would be a good Fall attractant or freeze out before late hunting season? Do you have any opinion or knowledge about this option? Thanks.

[dbltree]

Thanks for replying. I know what you are saying. It is difficult conditions but I will try different options untill I find something that works but relying on September rain for germination has poor odds of happening. Another thing I have considered is to plant the Whitetail Institute Imperial Extreme mix (http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/products/extreme.html) in the Spring after the snowmelt when soils are wet and we do get Spring rain in April/May. They claim that it will survive with 15" or more of rain, is heat resistant and cold tolerant. However I don't know if this is just hype and it is not clear what seeds are in the mix. I also don't know if it would be a good Fall attractant or freeze out before late hunting season? Do you have any opinion or knowledge about this option? Thanks.

Sorry I have no experience with that product but perhaps someone else may have? Most of us are fortunate to have enough rainfall to not need something like that so probably not a lot of use in the Midwest

[SWBUCKHNTR]

Just thought I would let everyone know gurneys has winter rye on sale right now!!!!!! It is marked down to the special price of $14.99/lb and will cover an amazing 5,000 sq feet. Don't hesitate order today. I can't believe what some people will buy.

[Nontypcl1]

Another season gone and the same outcome as years past.

2 acres of soybeans.... Gone (fenced until gun 1)
3 acres of turnips and radishes... devoured.
1 acre of chicory/clover... dormant and not feeding much
2 acres of rye mix... mowed short but still feeding plenty of deer :way:

once again it's almost February and the rye is pretty much the only food source left around my place. Well, that and whatever native browse that is still within reach

[dbltree]

Another season gone and the same outcome as years past.

2 acres of soybeans.... Gone (fenced until gun 1)
3 acres of turnips and radishes... devoured.
1 acre of chicory/clover... dormant and not feeding much
2 acres of rye mix... mowed short but still feeding plenty of deer :way:

once again it's almost February and the rye is pretty much the only food source left around my place. Well, that and whatever native browse that is still within reach

Gotta love that report! That's news we can use right there...thanks! :way:

[whitetail fanatic]

Here are some pictures showing how much the deer have been digging through the snow to get at our rye. These plots were a mix of 12# red clover, 100# rye, and 7# GHFR. The deer have pretty much clean up all the radishes by now, so the rye is all that's left. I know I didn't get any pictures that show it clearly, but the rye is nice and green under all that snow.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000891.jpg


http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000890.jpg


http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/whitetailfanatic79/P1000895.jpg

[IQDM]

I took a walk today in the strip plots in search of sheds... No Luck, but the plots look good yet and there is still plenty of food!

Soybeans:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132749.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132545.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132527.jpg

The Brassicas have been stripped, but there is still plenty available under the snow:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132448.jpg

Corn/Soybeans... Still looking good:
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132714.jpg

Cereal grain mix looks rough from a distance, but if you get close you can see that there is plenty of green left in there! :
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132807.jpg
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu38/pipping22/2012-02-04132937.jpg

I feel that I have a deer herd that is lower than the carrying capacity of my area. Add that to the fact that this winter has been very easy on the local deer herd, leaves me set for food until spring green up :way:

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

Very nice! Your deer sure don't have to worry about going hungry. Every cornfield near our farm is picked clean.

[dbltree]

Thanks for the great pics fellas! :way:

February 12, 2012

The strip plots have been pounded relentlessly and those not quite large enough to keep up with the grazing pressure seem to have little left to offer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7294.jpg

The once lush brassicas are grazed to the dirt as have the rye/oats/peas/radish combo

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7295.jpg

Yet...closer inspection reveals the still green winter rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7283.jpg

and remnants of the Groundhog forage radish

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7286.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7284.jpg

along with the rye keep them coming back

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7292.jpg

and the baby red clover is waiting silently for spring to arrive

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7285.jpg

in the brassica strips what at first appears to be nothing more then dirt...still holds prizes

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7288.jpg

as the turnip and radish roots continue to feed deer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7287.jpg

the combination of crops is holding deer at a time when most food sources are long ago...gone

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7291.jpg

but are the deer really still feeding in our plots? The rye is grazed to the dirt....are you sure they are still coming???

You betcha I'm sure...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b6-5.jpg

Note the dates....snow or shine...they keep coming back

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d8.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d6.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d5-2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d3-3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d1-5.jpg

The right combination of crops all planted within each feeding area will insure that your whitetails done' end up finding the neighbors place more attractive. Year around food sources are a hedge against them getting killed on the road, by poachers or hung in a fence if they have to travel to find food to survive.

Keep them home and adapt them to very predictable patterns by utilizing the following example....


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[dbltree]

February 19th, 2012

Winter rye is one of the ultimate habitat tools to help hold deer year around and the perfect place to start....

shed hunting!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Shed%20Hunting/1-31-1280shed.jpg

Deer are traveling farther and searching stubble fields as winter wears on them and food becomes scarce but in our year around food source feeding areas....they just travel a few yards from bedding to the winter rye and shed bucks are common on the cams.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/SB3.jpg

These deer have adapted to always having food a few yards away from their bedding area so no need to wander

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b3-6.jpg

all of this makes them incredibly easy to pattern because their movements are very very predictable

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b2-8.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b1-11.jpg

Between the winter rye and brassicas these feeding areas will keep deer coming back every day all winter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d1-6.jpg

and then the clovers will take over and the patterns continue

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d2-3.jpg

Pick a field with rye, any field anywhere and the picture is the same

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/d1.jpg

soybeans and corn are long gone

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/d2.jpg

but the deer are still here...because of the winter rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/d3.jpg

We don't have to worry about getting them to "come back"...they are already adapted to or "trained" to make daily trips

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/dd1.jpg

to our centralized feeding areas that contain a combination of food sources that keep them fed year around.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/dd2.jpg

That combination is as follows...


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[dbltree]

February 24th, 2012

It's late winter...and where are your deer???

Sometimes it's a tough row to hoe to keep them content and living on our property especially when there are things out of our control. In some cases landowners struggle with the fact that neighbors are feeding corn and deer have adapted to taking advantage of that. That problem can be tough to overcome but eventually possible if we adapt deer to staying on our property by providing year around food sources, and that can take time, sometimes several years to undo the damage already done.

Growing brassicas one year and cereals the next is NOT providing year around food sources...growing a combination of crops ALL in ONE place...is. I have been able to overcome the problem of deer leaving for almost any reason imaginable by providing for ALL of their needs with thick safe, secure bedding cover adjacent to a hidden feeding area that has food in it every single day of the year.

I not only do this on my own farm but on all the farms upon which I manage the habitat...including farms where whitetails have never tasted winter rye or turnips in their lives AND...with plentiful corn and soybean fields right next door.

The proof they say...is in the pudding or in this case in the thousands of cam pics from the combination feeding areas...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d1-7.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d2-4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/d3-4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0791.jpg

We just don't give these deer any reason to leave...are you?

I'll be at the 2012 Iowa Deer Classic all weekend at booth 406/408 so stop by and say hello if you attend...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/IW%20Album/IWHat.jpg

and we can talk more about how you can hold whitetails on your property year around using crop combinations like this....


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[dbltree]

I read a report the other day that indicates much of the Midwest has a 50% chance of a severe drought in 2012, the likes of which we haven't seen since 1988, based on the current La Nina. Hopefully that severe of a drought will not occur but the fact remains that we are susceptible to droughts, anytime, anywhere. Any food source we plant for whitetails then might be all for naught and we can face a disappointing season staring at a burned up "dirt plot" This is just one of the myriad of reasons I am a strong advocate of winter rye and other compatible crops to build up soil organic matter and increase the soils ability to hold water.

Winter rye is one of the better options most frequently used by farmers whose livelihood depends on the ability to successfully harvest high yielding crops. I frequently list all of the reasons rye is a better choice for whitetails (higher in crude protein, grows later, and earlier etc.) but the advantages to our soils are often completely over looked by those who mistakenly believe rye is some how less attractive to deer.

The following is a good article about the advantages of using winter rye as a cover crop in in the heart of corn country where the mere mention of the word "drought" can strike fear into the hearts of the people who quite literally....feed the world.

Rye planted to boost water-holding capacity (http://www.iowafarmertoday.com/news/regional/rye-planted-to-boost-water-holding-capacity/article_b033ca3c-6315-11e1-a234-001871e3ce6c.html)

The roots of winter rye not only contain allelopathic chemicals that inhibit small weed seeds from germinating and scavenge nitrogen for the ensuing crop but also help create a sponge of sorts to increase the ability of our soils to hold water.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeroots.jpg

If your soils fail to produce a crop capable of attracting and holding whitetails thru the fall and winter months and your season is a disappointment...then you'll begin to understand there is far more to creating optimum whitetail habitat then planting something just to attract deer.... ;)

[mshm99]

I attended a QDMA forum ,in St Louis , that featured Paul , about this time last year.Using the information I gathered ,I gave the plan a try.

My small property is in Pike county Illinois. My tilllable ground is farmed by a neighbor,and most of the time is in alfalfa. I play farmer on the perimeter of the crop fields. My equipment is mostly antique but still serviceable. My tractor is a 42 International H to give you some idea of how old it is.

We had a a pretty wet spring and every time I could get off work to plant Eagle Forage soybeans ,it rained. It just got too late and I decided to go with winter rye and ground hog radish, for the fall.

When it quit raining , it really quit. We did not get any real rain after the first of July. I hoped for the best and pressed on hoping for some fall rain. Which turned out to be pretty minimal.

The ground was as hard as woodpecker lips and I did the best I could to turn it over.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060035a.jpg

I could not get back right away. So I later ran the disc, and broadcast a lot of seed, since the gond was so hard and chunky ,I did not think the seed drill would do any better.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060053a.jpg

We did not get any rain , but when I checked back,I was surprised to seen signs of life. We must have had enough dew to get the job done.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/photo1.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/photo.jpg

A few weeks later.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060104a.jpg

Satisfied customers

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/11-20-11123a.jpg


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/11-20-111212a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/11-20-11114a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/11-20-11102a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/11-20-11088a.jpg

Current pics. We have 20 acres of winter wheat about 200 yards from this plot,and it looks great. This plot looks like it's been mowed. And it really supresses grass.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060259a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060258a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060262a.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060260a.jpg

Thanks Double Tree

Mike in Pike

The following pics verify what Paul has said about the aliopathic properties of the winter rye. The yellow flowers are the bolting groung hog turnips. Notice the weeds,uphill, on last years corn field.


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060405.jpg


I got my son in law to start the plowing for this years plot. Unfortunately , we had some tractor problems. It happens when you use a '42 International H. So I'm going with RR forage soybeans on the plowed have and we will do a fall planting on the other half. I'm interested to see the rye mature anyway.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060437.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060460.jpg

My neighbor was discing the corn field and he was nice enough to run over my plot, so I'm ready to plant.

Will move now to the soybean thread.

Mike in Pike

[dbltree]

Nice work Mike! Thanks for the pics! :way:

March 8th, 2012

They just keep coming back...every day, day after day...on over 30 different feeding areas across SE Iowa where I have planted the winter rye combination....the pictures don't lie....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/3-6-12Steve.jpg

The combination of a number of food sources all in one centralized feeding area keeps them fed year around and winter rye is just ONE of the tools I use to accomplish this.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/3-7-12Steve.jpg

Feeding deer in one place year around cause deer to adapt to coming there making them extremely predictable and far easier to kill. It's not just about rye...or clover...or soybeans...or "insert crop type"...it is about an over all habitat management program that provides for ALL a whitetails needs....YEAR AROUND!

In 1996 I bought 80 acres in Davis county Iowa and before I even closed on the land I had plans already made! I re-enrolled it in CRP, I killed the brome grass and planted Cave In Rock Switchgrass and mixed NWSG. I screened the entire farm with shrub, conifer and hardwood tree plantings, I did TSI and hinge cuttings, I planted thousands of oaks including hybrid oaks that produce sweet low tannin acorns, I planted fruit tree orchards and lastly....I established ONE CENTRALIZED FEEDING AREA.

At first I could grow corn and soybeans but over time deer adapted to feeding in the hidden secluded, safe, secure area of roughly 6 acres...surrounded by NWSG and timber. Eventually they refused to go to the neighbors crop fields only feet away and ignored neighboring food plots that did NOT provide feed year around a I switched to year around food sources.

I also created funnels that allowed me to quickly and efficiently harvest a mature buck and it took me only two days to do so this past fall.

I sold that farm recently and checked the trail cams for the last time. The following pics a from a runway leading to the winter rye in the central feeding area...about 30 yards behind the cam. Note the times...within a matter of minutes nearly a dozen bucks come thru here...80% of them shed....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b15.jpg

These bucks are adapted to coming to this ONE CENTRALIZED feeding area where I have had food year around for twice their lifetimes.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/g1.jpg

The fact they are here is not only a testament to the value of winter rye as a habitat tool but to an overall outstanding habitat program

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/ga1.jpg

I don't need forage beans or IWC clover to attract, hold and adapt whitetails to ANY properties

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/ga2.jpg

instead I provide them with what they REALLY need....awesome thick cover and

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/ga3.jpg

a combination of food sources that feed them every single day of the year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/ga4.jpg

Friends...are you consistently successful in holding mature whitetails on your farm?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b16.jpg

are you consistently able to harvest those mature bucks with archery equipment?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/b17.jpg

are you consistently able to harvest them in a relatively short period of time?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/g2.jpg

If the answer to any of those is no...then consider ALL of the habitat improvements necessary to change that

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/g3.jpg

Tremendous bedding cover and browse created with TSI/hinging/tree planting/NWSG, screening with Egyptian Wheat and conifers, manipulating movements with edge feathering and hinging and providing year around food sources in single feeding areas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/g4.jpg

Everyone is looking for a quick fix, a magic potion, a food source that is the answer to all their problems...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/g5.jpg

but the answer friends is not to be found in a bag of seed...it's in years of hard work by those dedicated to creating a whitetail haven using every habitat improvement necessary. Winter rye is not just great...it's fantastic, but...it is NOT the answer anymore then any crop...it is just one piece of the puzzle....

The following is one of the most productive crop combinations you can plant in centralized feeding areas...and the combination to which every deer I share pictures of...is headed to...365 days a year...

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[OKplotter]

Spring has already arrived in Oklahoma. Rye/Oats/Clover plots are green and getting hit hard.

http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=731&pictureid=1265
Can't see it in the picture but there are some winter peas in the enclosure that made it thru our mild winter.

[dbltree]

Thanks for posting! If the peas don't get eaten to the ground they often survive :way:

[plainjim]

I plan to plant the fall seed mix on my NE WA property this August as an attractant during the Nov/Dec Archery season. My question is-would the winter oats sold by Frigidforage bea good substitute for spring oats in the mix? Would it up better in freezing Nov temperatures? It is more expensive.

[dbltree]

I plan to plant the fall seed mix on my NE WA property this August as an attractant during the Nov/Dec Archery season. My question is-would the winter oats sold by Frigidforage bea good substitute for spring oats in the mix? Would it up better in freezing Nov temperatures? It is more expensive.

If you use winter rye...Ii would not spend the money for "winter oats" because in fact they probably will not survive more then a few days longer then any common spring oat

[Qdmaer]

These deer were 40yds from the house the other night.

[Reno]

I can't wait to get started on this new food plot plan! I have done a lot in the past but it was hit and miss on my part as I did not know at all what I was doing! I would try the newest, greatest thing to attract deer for bow and late muzzle loader seasons. Some worked for one season and not the other, etc. One year I tried forage oats and they worked great, right up to just before rut! This idea of multiple food sources in one place is going to rock! In the past the deer on our property left for unknown places after our food ran out. That is about to end! I am so glad I discovered the information Paul has put out on this site. THANKS PAUL! You put an amazing amount of effort into deer / wildlife management and are kind enough to share with us. Again, THANKS!

[dbltree]

THANKS!

Thanks friend...I appreciate the encouragement....:way:

March 22nd, 2012

With more then 350 acres of TSI work behind me perhaps I can catch up on posting more current pics but some of these are from a few weeks past. Irregardless, the attributes of the winter rye combination are notable anywhere we include them in our year around feeding areas. On farms that I manage where the landowners have Buckeye cams (that send pics instantly to their computer and smart phone) they comment that they have never seen so many deer utilizing a feeding area this time of year.

The advantage of dividing the feeding areas and using a combination of crops that fulfill a whitetails needs year around should be more the obvious, because it adapts them to living right there rather then traveling in search of as many force them to do with single crop plantings. Every day of the year...we have have feed and deer become very predictable as they beat well worn paths to these feeding areas....and they are never disappointed... (note there is a large cornfield only feet from where I took this picture)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7505.jpg

The strip in the center was once a lush brassica planting but every last scrap has been devoured, if it were the only thing planted we would force deer to go elsewhere...I am not aware of anyone who wishes their deer would go to the neighbors place?!?

The lush winter rye and red clover planted with it last fall are growing rapidly now and heavily grazed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7503.jpg

Some winter peas survive to compliment the spring food sources....all of which is extremely important to winter weary whitetails who need good quality high protein food sources such as the winter rye and red clover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7500.jpg

This field was a first time planting last fall, endured a terrible drought, germinated late because of lack of moisture and was planted in old CRP brome grass sod that had not been tilled in a decade. Whitetails had never, ever tasted rye in their lives on this farm....pic from about 10 days ago

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/IMG_7486.jpg

None of that phased the deer living here in the least and they have beat a path to the winter rye from the moment it came up last fall and continue on a daily basis

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0203.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0497.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0645.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0746.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0960.jpg

Like every single feeding area I plant across SE Iowa...this plot is only a short distance to crop fields, in this case 80 yards from a corn field. That is not to imply that deer did not visit the corn stubble when it was harvested, they certainly did but they are adapted to coming to the feeding area first and bed as close to it as they can....without it they would be scattered and would have no point of focus in their travels.

The following is the combination that works best for us and any landowner can add corn and soybeans to this combination if you so desire, we just have found them unnecessary, expensive and their usefulness short lived....


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[dbltree]

March 29th, 2012

Seems spring came a month early this year so keep in mind these pictures of rye and clover growth are not normal relevant to the time period, but are what you can expect when weather warms the spring following the rye combination planting.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-03-27_16-30-16_616.jpg

The red clover in the mix (and in this case white clovers also) already started the fall previous now begin to grow rapidly providing whitetails with lush high quality forage that provides protein far in excess of what they can even utilize.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-03-27_16-30-32_389.jpg

One of the reasons I use winter rye rather then winter wheat is because wheat tillers rapidly and quickly begins to suffocate the clovers unless chemically killed, rye however is non-tillering and makes a perfect companion to leave standing if you wish.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-03-27_16-30-45_371.jpg

The red clover will feed deer until being tilled under for a rotation to brassicas in mid July at which point it will feed the soil with tons of bio-mass and feed the brassicas nitrogen as the slowly decomposing plants release N.

Rye and red clover....hard combination to beat in most areas of the country... :way:


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[dbltree]

April 6th, 2012

Red Clover is an essential part of the rye combination mix that allows the mix to feed deer literally year around yet is the component most often ignored and left out!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/ryeclover1.jpg

Right now the red clover is exploding to life and quickly filing in and providing lush high protein food at a critical time for whitetails

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeclover6.jpg

Winter rye was the essential element that kept them fed all fall, winter and early spring...growing thru the winter when other cereal grains could not....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeclover4.jpg

But now all winter cereals will grow quickly and soon reach the unpalatable stage and deer need something to take it's place

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeclover7.jpg

White clover will certainly work and I usually start any white clovers with rye in the fall but since these areas will be tilled under for brassicas in July, the less expensive "mammoth" red clovers provide more food, more biomass and a tremendous amount of nitrogen in a short time period.

These pics are from a very small feeding area...note the large number of deer feeding on the winter rye in early March, there is a strip of white clover in the foreground that appears "brown"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0049.jpg

Soon however the white clover strip begins to grow

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0143.jpg

and gradually deer begin to shift from the rapidly growing rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0267.jpg

To the tender young white clovers and in this case, the young red clovers planted with the rye are beginning to recover and the combination of whites and reds will keep them well fed and returning every single day to this feeding area.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/PICT0801.jpg

Planting the right combination of crops ALL within one feeding area will soon make your whitetails very very predictable. Utilizing edge feathering and funneling techniques we can harvest them easily as they travel from bedding to feed and vice versa.

None of this is complicated nor expensive and in fact compared to almost any other type of food sources is the one that will eventually allow you to use NO herbicides and far less fertilizers! Inexpensive, effective, great for deer and your budget....read thru the following carefully and consider implementing this crop rotation in your feeding areas...this year....


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[showstopper]

When you say 400#'s I assume you are saying 400 per acre. What do you suggest a guy buying with limited funds to spread this? I have looked at a number of things that are "non-corrosive" fertilizer spreaders too. Do you have a company or style of spreader that you would recommend also? Thanks again!

[Sligh1]

When you say 400#'s I assume you are saying 400 per acre. What do you suggest a guy buying with limited funds to spread this? I have looked at a number of things that are "non-corrosive" fertilizer spreaders too. Do you have a company or style of spreader that you would recommend also? Thanks again!

If you're on a "budget", I am guessing you are going to spread a smaller amount of acres??? How many acres? If it's like 1-2 acres, go as cheap as you can get- like a $25 spreader that you push. It'll take u a bit longer but who cares. If you are going to spread more than 2 acres, I might have a different opinion & some different advice.

[dbltree]

When you say 400#'s I assume you are saying 400 per acre. What do you suggest a guy buying with limited funds to spread this? I have looked at a number of things that are "non-corrosive" fertilizer spreaders too. Do you have a company or style of spreader that you would recommend also? Thanks again!

Yes...everything is in pounds per acre...as far as a spreader there are lots of options so if you can tell me what you are looking at that would be helpful?

ATV or tractor mount for instance?

You might look thru this thread on equipment under spreaders and seeders for a few ideas...

Equipment for small farms (http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=32)

[mshm99]

I have added more info on my post #664 on page 67

Mike

[dbltree]

April 17th, 2012

People who planted winter rye with intentions of spring planting into it, wonder this time of year, which is best...tilling under the rye or just discing it in and a good question at that...

In most cases where we have added clover, the rye can just be clipped off, sprayed with clethodim or even left standing but where one is going to follow it with a spring crop like corn or soybeans and the addition of organic matter is the question, what should we do?

The most beneficial part of winter rye is in it's massive root systems which hold scavenged nutrients along with a great deal of organic matter, the potion above ground is just frosting on the cake so to speak. That said, I prefer to spray the rye with gly and just no-till into it but lacking no-till equipment you can easily disc it down, incorporating the leaf and stem potions into the upper 2-3" of soil. Then plant your crop which can then utilize the nutrients that the rye root systems have scavenged as well as enjoy the benefits of the moisture holding organic matter.

Farmers over seed winter rye into thousands of acres of standing corn and beans each fall to take advantage of this outstanding cover crop and this is even more important now that every bit of stalks are being harvested for bio-fuel. Adding WR to your habitat program then....does a whole lot more then just feed deer! In time you'll lower your herbicide and fertilizer inputs to boot!

The Austrian peas that survived the winter and heavy grazing are growing well along with the rye!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-04-14_15-18-55_454.jpg

This area will go back to Egyptian Wheat in early June so i sowed the peas at 100#'s per acre rather then add red clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-04-14_15-19-14_264.jpg

Peas being legumes are not only favored deer forage but nitrogen fixing plants as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-04-14_15-19-23_442.jpg

I will till this under (into the top 3-4") in late May and rotate the EW strip to this side...the EW will take advantage of the rye and pea cover crop, utilizing scavenged nutrients from the rye and nitrogen released from the killed peas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/2012-04-14_15-19-55_590.jpg

Use a combination of the right crops and you will be able to feed deer year around and...feed your next crop at the same time and that's exactly what the following crop combination can accomplish....



Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice, Kopu II, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[mshm99]

Thanks for the tips.I've got smaller plots in rye,gh radish and volunteer pt turnips that I'll just disc and plant the eagle rr forage beans this week end. I think I'll broadcast some winter rye in the cash crop corn this fall as well.

Mike in Pike

[dbltree]

Crimson Clover

In the fall of 2010 a plot was sown to winter rye and crimson clover (an annual clover) and it was allowed to completely mature (both crimson and rye) in 2011 and then tilled under in mid summer. Half was planted to brassicas and half to the winter rye combination mix all of which endured a very serious drought. Much of the red clover sown at the time did not survive the drought but interestingly enough....the crimson clover seed from the plants from the 2010 planting, even though tilled in 6-8" deep....came up and...survived!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Crimson1.jpg

I'm not implying that seed 6" down came up but because a tiller was used a certain amount of deed ended up near the surface and was deep enough that the seedlings were able to get enough soil moisture to survive, while the planted clovers near the surface did not.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Crimson2.jpg

When dry weather is a concern, planting seed slightly deeper can be helpful and crimson, if allowed to go to seed and then tilled in...is likely to return.... ;)

[mshm99]

Here are pics of my small south plots with the winter rye and volunteer pt turnips and gh rashes being disced up. I looking forward to see how this plot produces compared to the plowed plot.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060635.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060640.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060629.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/mshm99/P1060640.jpg

Mike

[dbltree]

Looks good...keep us posted Mike :way:

[DZJ81]

Up here in central MN, what is the latest one would want to plant the oat/berseem mix and still see the sou building benefits if it would be plowed down is July for brassicas and the other half in late August for then rye mix.

[Reno]

Here is a map that might help. According to Paul, I would not plant Berseem much before the last frost date.

http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-minnesota-last-frost-date-map.php

[dbltree]

Up here in central MN, what is the latest one would want to plant the oat/berseem mix and still see the sou building benefits if it would be plowed down is July for brassicas and the other half in late August for then rye mix.

As mentioned plant roughly 4-7 days ahead of your usual last frost date if possible or use crimson rather then berseem clover because it is a little more cold tolerant. Even 60 days growth will yield benefits so even if you plant in mid May you will reap rewards...

April 29th, 2012

The soil tilth and productivity of soils where the rye/brassica rotation has been used for at least several years is nothing short of amazing! The combination of winter rye and clovers, be it red, white or annuals ,like crimson quickly turns hard, poor, unproductive soils into beautiful productive soil!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryencrimson1.jpg

Winter rye feeds deer all fall , winter and early spring while at the same time growing amazing root systems that scavenge nutrients and thwart weeds...as of yet I have not found a more productive combination for both deer and soils!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryencrimson2.jpg

As the soils become more productive the rye grows amazingly fast and provides early spring cover as deer feed on the clover and all the while producing tremendous biomass to help build soils.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryegrowth.jpg

Winter rye broadcast into standing fall crops like soybeans and corn provided winter feed long after the grain was consumed insuring that deer did not leave for greener pastures and now is providing soil cover and scavenging nutrients that otherwise might be leached away

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeinsoybeans.jpg

After nearly 5 years of using this rotation on one farm the difference is nothing short of amazing! We started with hard, poor clay subsoil that had been in pasture for decades with no fertilizer ever added and turned it into soil that anyone could envy!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilth1.jpg

Now high in organic matter, it held moisture during last summers drought and produced huge turnips

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilth2.jpg

Once hardpan clay, the rotation of winter rye and brassicas that include Groundhog forage radish has loosened the hard soils

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilth3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilth4.jpg

Some soils are so hard to start with that I can broadcast oats and clover and cultipack once to cover but this soil is so loose and fluffy I need to pack it after the oats before sowing clovers for fear of burying them several inches deep

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilth5.jpg

Some of course can not see the reason for improving soils and set there sights only on a fall food source and that is folly that will eventually come back to haunt them. They can not provide year around food sources which causes deer to leave and adapts them to leaving and poor abused soils will not drain during wet weather nor hold moisture during droughts which increases the odds of failure and the probability of deer being forced to go to the neighbors to feed.

Don't make that mistake and don't be misled by expensive ads nor swayed by the doomsayers who know little about managing whitetails nor their land...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilth6.jpg

The landowners who hire me, trust me to turn tired old sod

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Sod1.jpg

that is nutrient starved and severely compacted

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Sod2.jpg

and abused pastures

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Sod3.jpg

that have not been tilled, fertilized or limed....ever

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Sod4.jpg

Into whitetail feeding meccas with outstanding soils that can grow crops reliably regardless of what nature throws at us...and you can do the same !

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Strip2-2.jpg

If you wish to be consistently successful, you must improve all facets of you habitat program by creating outstanding cover and natural browse and by providing year around food sources that feed both your deer and your soils....the choice is yours but the following mix is a rotation that will help you meet those goals...


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice, Kopu II, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

[SoDakarcher]

Paul,
I must first admit that I am guilty of not soil testing yet. My cereal grains came in marginally last fall with the lack of rain we had. I have virtually no clover growing in my cereal grain plots. I suspect I still have a Ph problem. How often are you mowing your oats during the early spring/summer, prior to implementing the 40% brassicas in July followed by 40 % cereal grains again in Sept. My plots are all in the cereal grain mix (almost entirely oats) as I just started this plan last fall.

Thanks

[SoDakarcher]

Sorry, my plots are all rye at this point in time not oats.

[dbltree]

You have options....you can mow anytime now or allow the rye to mature and then shred it. The only reason to mow it early is if you have very small equipment (such a as Swisher type mower) that can't handle the 5' high rye.

[MR56]

Couple questions with your rye/brassica strip rotation. Radish is a brassica? and if we plant it with the rye are we not planting brassica after brassica on the same strip?

And we know from experience it's easy to over plant turnips in particular and so we question the added 5# of radish along w/ the 2# of rape. The radish doesn't overly compete w/ the turnips and rape?

Aploligize if you've already answered these questions earlier, I've just jumped in.

[dbltree]

Couple questions with your rye/brassica strip rotation. Radish is a brassica? and if we plant it with the rye are we not planting brassica after brassica on the same strip?

And we know from experience it's easy to over plant turnips in particular and so we question the added 5# of radish along w/ the 2# of rape. The radish doesn't overly compete w/ the turnips and rape?

Aploligize if you've already answered these questions earlier, I've just jumped in.

Good questions that are often asked but always good to go over again.

Radish is a brassica that is true but planted in the fall with rye deer usually wipe it out while it is immature so it does not develop as it does when planted in the summer. Then...there is a significant time period before the field is re-panted to the brassica mix in July which breaks the disease/pest cycle.

The reason I am able to add an additional 5#'s of radish seed to the brassica mix is because again, deer tend to wipe it out . They self "thin" the forage radish by focusing almost entirely on the radish plants (while leaving the rape and turnips alone) until they are gone.

If one has very few deer you might back the planting rates down and experiment a little but note that I fertilize heavily to feed the brassica plants and in turn have heavy grazing that necessitates the addition of more seed.

There is no "one size fit's all" so the planting rates given in my threads are based on my experience on dozens of farms across SE Iowa. In all cases the brassicas grew well, were heavily grazed and all worked perfectly, however in an area with very few deer the landowner may experience something slightly different....;)

[skyleralan]

So I have a left over bag of Oats, what should I do with it. I know it is kind of late in the game to plant it for the spring. Should I keep it and wait for August and plant it, which won't last long once temps start to get cool in Oct-Nov.

OR

Plant now and just accept that it obviously won't yield very much compared to earlier planted oats.

[dbltree]

So I have a left over bag of Oats, what should I do with it. I know it is kind of late in the game to plant it for the spring. Should I keep it and wait for August and plant it, which won't last long once temps start to get cool in Oct-Nov.

OR

Plant now and just accept that it obviously won't yield very much compared to earlier planted oats.

Either way is fine....I always use oats with my fall mix and they will last well into December...;)

[Daver]

Paul - I have a question related to rye...I planted a spot last summer where I overseeded rye in what was then a sparsely populated, due to drought conditions, bean field. The rye grew a little last fall, also due to lack of rain, but then it went flat crazy this spring. Looking at the field last weekend I saw that most of it is waist high or better! So far I have left most of it standing and I intend to plant brassicas there later this summer.

Strictly from a soil building point of view, am I better off to till it in sometime in the next month while it is still green and growing OR just let it mature and die and then till it in shortly before planting it to brassicas?

I was just going to let it ride and deal with it later this summer, but after seeing how much "greenage":grin: I have out there now AND imagining the root system that is present underground I began to think...

With my fairly heavy clay based soils would I be better off tilling it in now, while still green, to get the maximum soil building green tonnage OR waiting?

I have also thought that with the thick stand of rye that I may leave it out there for nesting/fawning cover, as it is quite thick and my sense is that it would get used for that too.

Any advice?? :D Thanks in advance!

[dbltree]

Both are great options Dave, I usually prefer to disc it in while green but the root systems will be there regardless of which you chose so totally up to you.

It's often easier to disc in when it has matured and is in the form of "straw" but you gain a little more organic matter when it's green...probably not significant difference either way.

I just sprayed some of mine and no-tilled oats and clovers into it so I have some legumes growing before brassicas..:way:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/5-11-2012No-tillintorye.jpg

[DZJ81]

Pardon my ignorance, but could one use feed oats as a cheap source for a cover crop? A gentleman at my local coop said that would be an excellent choice for a cheap green manure/cover crop

[dbltree]

Pardon my ignorance, but could one use feed oats as a cheap source for a cover crop? A gentleman at my local coop said that would be an excellent choice for a cheap green manure/cover crop

Absolutely! :way:

[Skinny10]

Absolutely! :way:

Good to hear that's what we used. They sure are cheap $.15 lb! Didn't get them in until after the last round of rain, so patiently waiting.