Cereal Grains and cover crops [Archive]

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dbltree

08-25-2006, 01:43 PM

I know a lot of you are getting ready to plant fall grains like wheat, rye and oats. I'm getting ready to plant some myself so here's a few thoughts and links.

My favorite can't fail fall mix:

Fall rye 50-80#'s per acre (Fall rye grain, Winter Rye, Cereal rye)
Spring oats 60-100#'s per acre (any oats are fine )
Austrian Winter Peas or Field Peas at 20-100#'s per acre
Ground Hog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre
Red Clover at 8-12#'s per acre (I prefer Alta Swede Mammouth RC for a plow down

Sow large seeds first and lightly till or disc in roughly an 1" deep to cover. Use 100-200#'s of urea (nitrogen) if you expect heavy grazing and cultipack to cover.

Then broadcast the small radish and clover seeds and cultipack again to cover

Plant late August to early September....earlier in the north, later in the south

If you cannot locate seeds locally Welter Seed carries everything you need.

Ground Hog Forage Radish Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=418)

Pea and rye seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=37&org=0)

Clover seeds (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Rye and triticale would be my favorites for fall and winter feed. Rye is cheap but triticale (a cross between wheat and rye) is a leafier version with the attributes of both.

Cereal rye is always my first choice over wheat or any other grain because it is higher in protein, requires no fertilizer, will grow on low PH soils, has alleopathic chemicals that discourage weeds, is a nitrogen scavenger and a root system that breaks up soil hardpan and improves soil.

Make sure you ask for RYE not ryegrass seed! Rye seed is around $10-12 per bag.

Wheat works fine but doesn't have the "weed inhibitor" abilities of rye which affects next springs food plot, whatever it might be. Wheat sucks up nitrogen and has none of the soil building attributes that rye has. Wheat is lower in protein so unless it's all you can find, DON'T plant it!

Oats work well also but have a limited time frame because of frost. An early frost means it may be long dead well before the 1st of November. I use regular oats which are about $10-12 a bag versus "brand name" oats which cost considerably more and the deer mow them!

Rye and tricticale seeding rates can be from 80-100# per acre

Wheat 90-120#

Oats 80-120#

Plant cereal grains anywhere from 1/2" to 3" deep with 1 to 1 1/2" being the norm which puts the seed in the moisture zone.

Grains like winter rye can even be broadcast on bare soil and will germinate with adequate moisture so planting depth is not extremely important.

Cover by discing, dragging, tilling lightly or just cultipack to cover.
They all love nitrogen so a 100# of 46% urea (or more) would certainly encourage growth.

 Seed sources

Albert Lea Seed Company (http://www.alseed.com/__files/farm_catalog.pdf)

Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx) (check under "other grains")

Adams Briscoe Seed Company (http://www.abseed.com/)

Cooper Seeds (http://www.cooperseeds.com/)

Hancock Seed (http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-varieties-241/forage-crop-seed-52/)

Greencover Seed (http://www.greencoverseed.com/)

Fall Rye Grain (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=201)

Austrian Winter Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=278)

Frank Forage Oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=195)

Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

PM nannyslayer on this site if your in the mid west southern Iowa area

Winter Rye

Cereal Grains include winter rye, winter wheat, spring and fall triticale, barley, buckwheat and oats and are perhaps one of the least expensive and easiest food plots that we can plant.

Of those listed winter rye (fall rye grain NOT ryegrass) is my favorite as it has a host of attributes not found in other grains. Rye is the most winter hardy, surviving the most brutal winters, grows on a wide range of soil Ph from acid to alkaline, is a nitrogen scavenger (compared to wheat that sucks up N like a sponge!! :shock: ), is one of the ultimate cover crops because of it's allelopathic effects on many types of weeds and it's ability to break up hardpan soils and is one of the highest in crude protein.

 Recycle Nitrogen? Rye is one of the few plants capable of taking up nitrogen and then re-releasing it when tilled under the following spring! Not going to happen with wheat, when it use nitrogen it's gone!!

A rye cover crop and manure applications are mutually beneficial. Manure nutrients aid in decomposition of the rye, offsetting any potential yield drag, and rye captures and recycles the manure nutrients effectively to the future corn crop, reducing commercial fertilizer needs.

Rye is one of the best scavengers of nitrogen and reduces leaching losses on both sandy soils and tile-drained land. The fast growing, fibrous root system can capture 25 to 100 pounds of soil nitrogen per acre. Seeding rye in late summer or early fall will allow it to scavenge nitrogen. When organic N (from manure or legumes) is still available. Rye can capture this nitrogen and recycle it to the following season. The actual amount of nitrogen that is recycled is highly variable. A preside dress soil nitrate test can help determine the amount of nitrogen credit to take for the upcoming corn crop.

Rye should be allowed to grow over the winter to continue taking up N in the spring.

Rye is the hardiest of cereals and can be seeded later in the fall than other cover crops, and it provides top growth and extensive root growth. It will germinate at cold temperatures—as low as 34 degrees F—and it will resume growing at 38 degrees in the spring. This makes it possible to seed rye after corn, sugar beet or bean harvest until the ground freezes.

It is relatively inexpensive to plant, and the seed is readily available or easily grown.

Easy to establish, rye can be aerial seeded in standing corn/silage and before leaf drop in soybean. Rye can be broadcast alone or with dry fertilizers, can be added to manure tanks for slurry seeding or drilled (which provides the most consistent stands).
It outperforms most other crops on infertile, sandy or acidic soil. It is also tolerant of a variety of soil types and grows well on both poorly and well-drained soils.

Rye can recycle potassium from deeper in the soil profile for future crop use.

Rye is effective at suppressing weeds. It competes with winter annuals and inhibits growth of spring weeds. As rye residue decomposes, it releases allelopathic compounds that are harmful to the growth of weeds.
The rapid fall and spring growth can stabilize sandy soil, trap snow and improve infiltration.

Rye is utilized for many cropping systems, including fruits and vegetables, where it can be left in narrow strips to reduce wind erosion.

Rye, and all cover crops, build soil quality over time by adding organic matter. Long-term benefits include improved soil structure, tilth, water infiltration and water-holding capacity.Why cereal rye? (http://www.animalagteam.msu.edu/LandApplication/ManureandNutrientManagement/CerealRyeManureandLivestocksNewBestFriend/tabid/307/Default.aspx)

More about Rye (http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/rye.html)

Attributes of Rye (http://www.uvm.edu/vtvegandberry/factsheets/winterrye.html)

High on Rye (http://hayandforage.com/mag/farming_high_rye/)

Winter Rye for Extending the Grazing Season (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0026.html)

Cover Crops: Cereal Rye (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/html/em/em8694/)

CEREAL RYE - Secale cereale (http://www.sare.org/publications/covercrops/rye.shtml)

Cereal Rye for Cover Cropping (http://www.extension.org/article/18571)

These links show that rye has higher crude and digestible protein then all other cereal grains such as wheat, triticale and oats.

Forage Dry Yield
(ton/acre) CP (%)* NDF ( %)* ADF ( %)*
Rye 1.7 b 19.4 a 48.6 b 26.8 a
Early-cut wheat 2.6 a 16.2 b 59.1 a 30.6 b
Late-cut wheat 2.7 a 14.0 c 59.8 a 31.6 c
LSD 0.2 1.0 0.9 0.8

* ADF = acid detergent fiber; NDF = neutral detergent fiber; CP = crude protein.

Winter Rye for Extending the Grazing Season (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0026.html)

Managing Small Grains for Livestock Forage (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr160/agr160.htm)

Understanding Forage Nutrition for Ruminants (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/dairy/as1250w.htm)

Interpreting Forage Quality Reports (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/id/id101/id101.htm)

I usually mix oats with my winter rye but oats like wheat is consistently lower in crude protein:

Cereal Forages for Spring Planting (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/CerealSpringForagesFOF.htm)

Oats compared to wheat and triticale (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0019.html)

Whitetails absolutely love rye and will dig thru deep snows to get at it during winter months and even the highest deer densities can not destroy it. I often hear people touting winter wheat but wheat cannot hold a candle to the many positives of rye and in fact has to many negative attributes to even consider it unless rye seed is not easily obtained.

Less than 50% of the rye grown in the U.S. is harvested for grain, with the remainder used as pasture, hay, or as a cover crop. About half of the amount harvested for grain is used for livestock feed or exported, and the remainder is used for alcoholic beverages, food, and seed. In the Midwest, rye is primarily grown for grain, but occasionally for hay or pasture.

It can also be grown as a cover or green manure crop. In addition to contributing organic matter, rye reduces soil erosion and enhances water penetration and retention. Furthermore, due to its allelopathic effect, some evidence suggests that rye could be exploited for weed control. It has been widely reported that residues of fall-planted, spring-killed rye reduces total weed biomass by 60% to 95% when compared to controls with no residue. Rye residue which remains at the soil surface can potentially modify the physical and chemical environment during seed germination and plant growth.

Rye matures earlier than wheat or triticale and has the highest crude protein levels. From a forage quality standpoint, winter rye will have a higher crude protein percent than winter wheat. Winter rye crude protein concentration usually is between 13 and 14 percent if adequately fertilized with nitrogen

Rye generally provides more forage than other small grains in late fall and early spring because of its rapid growth and its adaptation to low temperatures.

“Rye is widely adapted when compared to the other small grains,” Ransom says. “For instance, rye is not affected
by the very acidic soils like wheat can be. It will grow in many places wheat won’t.”

Rye - Longer Grazing, fewer weeds! (http://www.angusjournal.com/articlePDF/longergrazing.pdf)
Triticale is a cross between wheat and rye making it a great option but it often is not readily available without expensive shipping.

Oats are a great fall food source but even the most winter hardy oats will be killed when temps plunge into the 20 degree range.

Austrian Winter peas 50# per acre

Hairy vetch 20-40#

AWP won't survive the winter but will stay green for awhile and are just a cheap "deer candy"

Hairy vetch produces a tremendous amount of nitrogen the following spring and I'm only planting it because I will follow it with corn again. I hope to no-till the corn and beans into the growing cover crops and then kill it all with roundup.
Don't let HV go to seed and stick with peas if you aren't following it with corn.

I also encourage including a red clover for plowdown with your cereal grains although it can be frost seeded later on.

Plant 8-12#'s per acre... Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

You can overseed most any of these combimation into standing corn, soybeans and brassicas if they are not to thick. Just before a rain would be best.

Rye and Hairy vetch (http://vsg.cape.com/%7Enature/greencenter/q33/hairy.htm)

Winter rye (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0026.html)

Triticale (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/triticale.html)

Seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/default.aspx)

Hairy Vetch (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/vetch.html)

Hairy Vetch I.D. (http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/legumes/hairy_vetch.htm)

Hairy Vetch info (http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/weeds/plants/hairy_vetch.htm)

Hairy Vetch as a Cover Crop (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0006.html)

Austrian Winter Peas seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=278)

Getting ready for rye, AWP, hairy vetch and red clover right after Labor Day

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Prepareforfallrye.jpg

Oats already seeded and fertilized. I'm going to plant some rye plots next to the oats, and both are along side alfalfa and brassicas...we'll see which they prefer and when.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SeededtoOatsnClover-1.jpg

dbltree

09-04-2006, 11:04 AM

I didn't mention planting dates for fall grains but for winter varieties of wheat, rye and triticale, timing is fairly important.
Often it's more important for grain yields than forage in a food plot, but basically planting at least 10-14 days before the average first frost date is the latest and somewhere around the first of Sept. for the earliest planting.

Oats can be planted a little earlier because they are not going to survive the winter.

AW peas can be planted a little earlier for more growth since they are not susceptible to the same problems that grains are. Some AWP's have survived the winter down here in the "garden belt" and if allowed to produce seed, came back up again this fall when disked under.

Winter Wheat Planting Dates (http://www.ipm.uiuc.edu/bulletin/pastpest/articles/199922f.html)

Fly Free (http://www.ipm.uiuc.edu/bulletin/pastpest/articles/199922f.html)

Average Frost Dates (http://www.victoryseeds.com/frost/ia.html)

I planted a couple very small plots of oats where I can observe and compare with rye and brassicas.

This little patch is oats and white clover after about 10 days. I hand fertilized with urea at planting and I'll most likely give it another dose in a couple weeks.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/10dayoldOats.jpg

Notice the deer tracks in it

dbltree

09-07-2006, 06:25 AM

I planted my last fall plot the other day, so you won't have to put up with much more of my ramblings

Planted 100# per acre of rye and about 20# each of both Austrian Winter Peas and Hairy Vetch as well as a couple #'s per acre of Red Clover. I had about 40# of oats left so I thru that in the mix also.

If not for my adding the HV one would be better off to plant the AWP at 40-50# per acre so they can keep ahead of the deer.

AWP Source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=278)

Inoculant (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=211)

AWP Info (http://www.kansasruralcenter.org/publications/winterpeas.pdf#search='austrian%20winter%20peas')

Cover Crops (http://www.seedsofchange.com/enewsletter/issue_37/cover_crops.asp?UID=)

This field will be going back into corn so I'm looking for as much nitrogen and soil building as I can get in addition to the deer feed.

I disced the field a couple times 2 weeks ago and then fitted it down with a harrow.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Workingitup.jpg

I had too much pea and vetch seed to inoculate prior to heading for the field so I took a long a small cooler, an ice pack, inoculate and a little jug of water.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Inoculatesupplies.jpg

Mixed it by hand in a bucket. This happens to be AWP seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/inoculatepeas.jpg

Used one of these to seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/3ptseeder.jpg

Poured in the different types of seed and mixed them up in the seed hopper.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Seedmix.jpg

I spread the seed while my son followed behind with the cultipacker to press seed in. That type of seeder is a little tricky to adjust and we had to close it while filling. I would get in place and my son would open it and I'd take off...otherwise the small rye seed just runs out on the ground.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plantingcrew.jpg

Finished field, fitted and planted. Calling for rain this weekend

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlantedSept6.jpg

dbltree

09-20-2006, 06:58 AM

Here's pics of rye, peas and brassicas planted in a small plot that are about 10 days old.

Some warm fall days will have the rye thick and lush in a few more weeks, but it gives one an idea of growth/time frame.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newrye.jpg

Close up:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ryepeasbrassicas.jpg

These oats were planted 3-4 weeks ago and deer are really hitting them now, of course we are flirting with frosts already...so they look good now but how long will they last?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oats30days.jpg

Rye can be seeded anytime to mid-October but looking at the pics will give you an idea of how much growth you will end up with.

dbltree

09-22-2006, 02:22 PM

Checked out my bigger rye planting today....lookin good!

"Green" is good!
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryenpeapatch.jpg

Close up of an Austrian Winter Pea on the left and a Hairy Vetch to it's right:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AWPandHV.jpg

This field is right beside my brassica plot and they are already grazing the rye and it's only a few inches high!

Hoping they give the "baby peas" a chance before they devour them!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Peasnrye.jpg

Lot a feed there....but then I have a big "herd" to feed...

dbltree

10-01-2006, 06:00 PM

Here'a a pic of the rye and AWP field at one month. I can't believe as big as this field is how the deer are literally mowing it!

Now you know where the saying "eating themselves out of house and home" comes from

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct1ryenpeas.jpg

We could sure use a nice rain...90 degrees and a brisk breeze is sure drying things out

dbltree

10-10-2006, 05:53 PM

Looks like we are in for a serious freeze with temps in the upper 20's a couple mornings.

Going to be interesting to see how much the oats can take and if "plain old oats" last as long as the more expensive "brand" oats.

Keep an eye on your plots and let's compare "notes" as the weather get's colder.

August oats as of 10/07 being grazed hard..

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct7oats.jpg

Rye, AWP and brassicas planted first of Sept. It's been very dry up until today which limited growth some.

The rye is doing fine and grazed about the same as the oats, but the brassicas planted that late don't have enough growing time.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyepeasandbrassicasplantedSept.jpg

Close up of Austrian Winter Pea, like brassicas if it was the main source of fall feed it would be better planted in mid-August. Still...very tender "pickins" for this fall!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyenPeas.jpg

At least I know the rye will be there...hell or high water /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

dbltree

10-17-2006, 09:50 AM

We had some pretty darn cold temps last week but never saw any real frost Never killed our flowers here in the yard so I guess it's not a real test of the oats yet.

Some of the small plots they have eaten completely to the ground, so I might not be able to tell when they freeze off anyway

These were 6-8" high a month ago (guess they like "plain ole oats" too!)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Mowedoats.jpg

The rye is nice and green and seems able to withstand the heavy grazing, but I'd say this is as tall as it's going to get..between the deer and the weather

Notice how tiny the brassicas are (planted first of Sept.)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct17ryenbrassicas.jpg

Compared to July planted

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicas10-17.jpg

dbltree

11-14-2006, 01:14 AM

Since we have talked from time to time about just how late one can plant rye or wheat...

A farmer down the road from me just planted wheat 11/09 on ground he harvested soybeans from.

Obviously it's not going to "deer feed" anytime soon, but since it's next door I'll keep an eye on it and see how it turns out.

Those of you that planted your rye or wheat in Otcober...how's it looking?

Did you get any "grazable" growth yet?

dbltree

12-15-2006, 01:17 PM

Pretty good field of rye on good ground, fertilized heavy for corn. Mixed oats, AWP and Hairy vetch...and it's all grazed to the nubs! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-15Rye.jpg

Nothing left but the rye either

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WellGrazedRye.jpg

Rye compared to what's left of the brassicas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyenexttoBrassicainDec.jpg

They have runways beat to a pulp coming into the rye...so I guess they like it

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BeatenRunway.jpg

Rye, wheat, winter triticale and oats are all a big draw but forget the oats for late season hunting...

You can see BFO oats on this thread...still froze off just like any regular oats.

Oats are Toast (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=173732&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

My oats 12-12:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12Oats.jpg

Rye plot planted right beside the oats...pic also 12-12:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12Rye.jpg

dbltree

12-30-2006, 09:03 AM

I already posted some of these in the Field Report (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=154164&fpart=1) thread but I wanted to add them here as it's now nearly the New Year and many often wonder about "late season" food plots.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hunting/AfternoonDeer12-27.jpg

My son and I drive in one way and out another mostly on "dirt roads" a.k.a. MUD so runways stick out like a sore thumb.

Deer are coming from every direction to this rye! Some are actually coming from cover a mile away

I noticed the runway one day and the other night we saw small herd skylined heading towards the rye. Nothing but bare pasture where they came from and that they were crossing...amazing!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hunting/Earlyafternoon12-27.jpg

This is the first time ever...in over 10 years that I have watched this food plot, normally I hunt runways leading to it...but the wind situation forced us to try something different.

When we got there deer were in the field at 2:00 but they were behind a small knoll. I snuck out there and took this picture closeup. I couldn't believe it...not a spot in that field that wasn't covered with "fertilizer"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-27rye.jpg

Rye obviously is a great all winter draw. Winter wheat and fall triticale in the same category. Cheap and easy I think for most people it's a "no-fail" foodplot.

The drawbacks for me are...as you can see, compared to being hidden from poachers in corn...these deer would be easy pickins with a poachers rifle.

In my case the field is hidden from roads and only accessable by foot.

On another note in my particular case, "controlling the deer herd" is all but impossible. I can shoot as many as I can but because no one else does on surrounding land (which involves thousands of acres of heavy cover)it's like trying to eliminate carp from the Mississippi River...by myself

I can see it will only get worse so I will be forced to plant plots that will withstand the heavy deer pressure.

Rye certainly passes the test

FarmlandQDM

12-31-2006, 12:50 AM

On another note in my particular case, "controlling the deer herd" is all but impossible. I can shoot as many as I can but because no one else does on surrounding land (which involves thousands of acres of heavy cover)it's like trying to eliminate carp from the Mississippi River...by myself

I can see it will only get worse so I will be forced to plant plots that will withstand the heavy deer pressure.

Rye certainly passes the test

We have a similiar situation Paul, our farm is in a good area because of the relative lack of hunting pressure which helps us grow quality bucks but at the same time the lack of hunting pressure makes it difficult to have a big impact on our doe population. It seems like every year we start the fall with more food than we had the previous fall, but by Jan. our plots are just about wiped out. I believe part of this is due to our deer density but hopefully another factor is that our habitat management is making our property a preferred destination for the local deer population ... and I am sure that is part of what you see on your own property.

Food plots are a great supplement for deer but managing natural food sources is an important part of habitat management that is too often overlooked. In high pressure areas, prescribed burning, TSI cuts, edgefeathering, strip disking, and spot spraying can all improve quantity and quality of natural food sources. I think you know the method I prefer ...

dbltree

03-07-2007, 06:39 AM

Just another plug for rye and/or wheat...

I pulled into my field to drive back and do some frost seeding and this rye was literally coverd up with deer

The hauled outta there before I could get a pic but it's still green even in March! (albeit short...as in grazed to nubs!)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyeinMarch.jpg

On the way out I drove up the other side and...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Shed%20Hunting/Antlerintherye.jpg

Just another reason to have some later winter feed in your managment program!

(not to mention being very cheap and easy to plant!)

dbltree

03-07-2007, 04:04 PM

dbltree,
do you have any alfala plots? your pics and post are great! After seeing first hand what has happened to your plots, I am getting sort of worried that based on the heard size just on our small farm, I am getting the feeling that our paultry 7-8 acres of food plots: 6.5 alfalfa and 1.5 clover are going to get mauled even before archery season will roll around this year. I see roughly 17 to 20 deer regularly and we do not have a plot in yet as we just bought the place last year.

What size, if you don't mind divulging are the plots you have in this post and what kind of results have you had with Clover and alfalfa?

Thanks N9BOW

Yes I have both alfalfa and clover plots.

About 8 acres of alflafa on one farm and about 2 acres of clover on the farm where you see the rye. I don't have alfalfa there because a farmer has a large field of it right across the fence.

Despite my high deer densities, I have never seen them eat either clover or alfalfa to the ground.

In fact we bale the hay and the clover I have to mow repeatedly.

The problem with clover is that it is dead and gone by December.

Alfalfa is better because they fed in it until Jan. but even it can't stay available as long as rye.

Each has it's place...no one food source is perfect nor right for everyone. That's why I prefer a combination that will hold deer nearly year around despite droughts or wet weather.

Rye is cheap and easy to plant but it doesn't have the high protien content of alfalfa.

The combination of corn and alfalfa is near perfect for the same reasons cattlemen rely on them...but everyone doesn't have the option.

Here's my alfalfa (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QDM&Number=140114&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=) and my clover (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QDM&Number=143147&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

dbltree

03-07-2007, 06:27 PM

DBL,
Thanks. In your estimations, do you think 6.5 acres of alfalfa and 1.5 acres of clover will keep up with 20+ deer feedng daily? Until I can reduce the numbers this fall with some agressive doe harvests I am going to have to feed the group I see daily and more than likely the ones around the bend that I do not see.

We still have snow on the ground and I have several pounds of Imperial Whitetail clover to go in. I have a bag spreader. Should I frost seed or just wait till I get the drill rental this spring when the prairie planting and the alfalfa go in?

Thanks again for the tips.
N9BOW

I think that much legume can handle the pressure. One thing that affects usage dramatically is hidden fields.

Mine are hidden between good cover and natural travel routes. Plenty of feed over the fence but after being shot at from the road for so many years...they stay where it is safe and "the livin is easy" :)

Here's the thing about Imperial Clover...it contains a high percentage of Berseem clover which is an annual meaning it won't come back next year and it cannot be frost seeded.

The other clovers in their mix can be frost seeded but if you want to get your money's worth...I would drill it in this spring when you do the alfalfa.

dbltree

03-08-2007, 06:08 PM

Dbltree- Which was a better draw in October and November, your oats or the rye?Thanks

I have tested all kinds of cereals side by side including winter rye and oats and it makes not one whit of difference to the deer. They will walk from one to the other and eat them all evenly so there is no real reason to choose one over the other based on deer preference.

Winter rye will last all winter whereas oats of course will not and winter rye is generally the highest in crude protein ,making it the most desirable choice for most landowners managing for whitetails.

dbltree

03-27-2007, 02:21 AM

This time of year many people ask "what can I plant in the intermediate time between spring and when I plant my fall plots"?

Excellent question and there are several options that will provide some spring to early summer feed sources as well as building your soil

If you had a previous fall plot of brassicas, then following it with a short term spring crop like buckwheat would be an excellent choice.

Buckwheat is a great soil builder and will help hold down weeds.

Oats or spring triticale mixed with field peas or Austrian Winter Peas is another great short term food source and soil builder.

Peas have the ability to put a substantial amount of nitrogen in the soil for your fall plot of brassicas or cereal grains.

Berseem clover is an annual clover that can provide spring/summer feed that will also contribute high levels of nitrogen for your next crop.

If you don't plant something, your plot will be overrun with weeds (which if plowed down will also act as a soil builder). While weeds are great for small game they often contribute little for deer and if allowed to go to seed.....

Oats/triticale and peas can be planted asap in the spring...remember to inoculate the peas!

Berseem clover can also be planted early and could be planted with oats, then clip the oats before they get mature and rank.

Buckwheat is best planted later after soils have fully warmed and all danger of frost is past. Late May or early June is generally better.

For best results plow or till under any of these before they go to seed or while they are green (hence "green manure" crops)

You can purchase oats locally and perhaps buckwheat and peas.

Welters is sold out of buckwheat and Frank Forage oats already, so I paid the couple bucks more and ordered organic buckwheat and a standard "grain" oat.

These Welter links will give you basic planting rates and attributes of each:

Buckwheat (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=289)

Pea Oatlage (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=225)

Pea Tritlage (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=227)

Berseem Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=332)

Frank Forage Oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=195)

4010 Field Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=228)

Austrian Winter Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=278)

Inoculation (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=21&org=0)

It's easy to see why I'm partial to rye:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Wildlife/BucknToms.jpg

Rye, wheat, triticale and barley are all very comparable in feed value as one can see in this study taken from this link (http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr160/agr160.htm)

One can clearly see however that rye is higher in CP and TDN's making it an excellent choice for a fall/winter/spring food source.

Quote:
Table 1. Relative Differences in Growth Stage Development, Yield and Nutritive Quality of Various Small Grain Species1
Species Average Date for Growth Stage
Boot Headed Bloom 1/2 Seed Milk Soft Dough
Barley2 4/19 4/22 5/4 5/11 5/18 5/26
Rye 4/29 5/2 5/9 5/17 5/23 6/1
Wheat 5/13 5/19 5/23 5/31 6/6 6/11
Triticale 5/15 5/21 5/26 6/3 6/10 6/14
Oat 5/21 5/28 5/31 6/5 6/12 6/16
Yield T/Ac @ 35% D.M.
Rye 7 8 9 10 11 11
Wheat 7 8 10 10 11 12
Triticale 8 10 11 12 13 13
Oat 4 5 6 8 8 9
Crude Protein %
Rye 13 11 9 7 6 5
Wheat 10 10 8 9 7 6
Triticale 11 9 8 7 6 5
Oat 12 10 9 9 8 7
Total Digestible Nutrients %
Rye 63 52 46 45 47 50
Wheat 60 59 53 54 56 56
Triticale 56 46 46 45 50 52
Oat 65 60 53 53 56 57

Crude Protien levels:
Rye 13
Oat 12
Triticale 11
Wheat 10

Total Digestible Nutrients %

Oat 65
Rye 63
Wheat 60
Triticale 56

All of these grains would no doubt have higher TDN's if tested at the point when they are at the grazing stage.

dbltree

04-03-2007, 10:11 AM

Even after being grazed to nubs all winter...give it a little warm weather and the rye takes off like gangbusters!
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-01-rye.jpg

It's already growing faster then they can eat it:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryecloseup.jpg

Even a small patch of rye or wheat will attract a lot of attention:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/DeerandTurkeys.jpg

Here's a field of wheat that was planted in early November...much to my surprise it germinated and is growing great!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Novemberplantedwheat.jpg

I'm just waiting for the monsoons to stop so I can plant my oats, spring triticale, field peas and berseem clover, all of which will be spring feed/cover crop/plow down for fall food plots.

The combo of small grains and peas or berseem is a great way to add nitrogen for a fall plot or next springs plot.

Make sure you plan a nitrogen "user" such as brassicas or small grains this fall or corn, sorghum/milo next spring.

dbltree

04-03-2007, 02:06 PM

Paul,
Are you planting the rye by itself?
Rye is a perennial correct?

The wheat is it also a perennial?
How many years do you usually get out of these?

oats, spring triticale, field peas and berseem clover

These must be only annuals?

I am just thinking how to separate and plant my plots. If the farmer has beans and corn what is your thoughts on putting either of those in a plot. To me they are already there and the coons would devour it?

Thanks again. A lot of information and I am just trying to figure out which is best.

They are all annuals, rye, wheat, oats, peas and berseem clover...all last only one growing season.

Rye, fall triticale and wheat are planted in the fall and overwinter to produce grain the following year.

If left to mature the grain might cause it to reseed itself but the orginal plant will be long dead.

You can plant any combo of those grains in late August for winter feed, except berseem clover which being an annual should be planted in the spring for summer/early fall feed.

Oats work well but will freeze at the first heavy frost.

Field peas can be mixed with any grains but may need to be planted in late July to make "peas" which the deer will feed on come fall.

The small grains are cheap to plant and you can get by with little fertilizer and it's something "different" which makes it a good draw for deer.

Obviously rye can take a hammering and still draw deer all fall and winter! :)

dbltree

04-09-2007, 01:56 AM

You know how there's always got to one guy in the field before everyone else?

Well that would be me :)

First dirt 2007!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FirstDirt2007.jpg

I wanted to get some oats, spring triticale and 4010 field peas in the ground...so I braved the bitter cold temps and gale force winds and got started.

I came home at the end of the day, face raw, eyes blood shot, fingers froze muttering to my wife...who informed me..."hey...your supposed to be having fun...if it's not fun, don't do it!"

I know when I've been beat /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

The ground was a little to wet, then a little to froze but with my sons help we got at least some of it planted.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Workinitup.jpg

Got out the planting supplies, seed, bag spreader, bucket to mix inoculant with the peas and a coffee can to dip seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Plantingsupplies.jpg

Field peas and a 4 dollar bag of inoculant:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FieldPeas.jpg

Only takes just a dab of water to make the inoculate stick...and a 9/16 box end wrench to stir it /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Addinoculant.jpg

Stirred:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Stir.jpg

I just mixed the oats and peas right in the bag spreader:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnPeas.jpg

I also planted some spring triticale and peas:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Springtriticale.jpg

We tilled, broadcast about 80# of oats and 40# of peas per acre and then cultipacked the seed in.

I'm planting this mix partly for spring feed to keep the deer busy and away from my corn (what are the odds of that working)

I also want to test the field peas before planting them for fall feed. Will the deer eat them off as they come up...or leave them until the peas harden?

Is there any difference between oats and triticale as far as preference by deer or ability to stand up to heavy grazing?

Part of this I will till under as green manure in mid summer for a fall repeat when I will try rye, fall triticale and oat plots with field peas and Austrian Winter Peas for comparison.

The peas will add nitrogen to the soil and the grains...will build soil oragnic matter.

When it warms up a tad I will seed oats and berseem clover that I will till under for fall brassicas.

Very late spring I will sow buckwheat in some other spots...all of it will be deer forage and soil builders.

Welters were out of Frank Forage oats so planted WSO5M Oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=380)

Spring Triticale (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=222)

4010 Field Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=228)

Peas or Vetch Inoculation (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=211)

Our previous thoughts on using Field peas (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=QDM&Number=153687&fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

Everything I planted should be planted early and peas are very frost resisitant.

We'll see what happens...if the deep freeze ever ends. :)

dbltree

04-10-2007, 01:23 AM

can you or do you ever go into a clover field in say September and drill some oats, rye or triticale into the plot. just to beef it up a bit?

In most cases clover would be to thick and competitive, so generally the opposite is done, using cereal grains to establish clover.

If one had a no-till drill and the clover stand was thin I'm sure it could probably be done.

dbltree

04-30-2007, 03:28 AM

The oats n peas we planted when it was 18 degrees are coming up after the rain...not as good as those we planted later however :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnPeas-1.jpg

But at least they are coming up! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnFieldPeas.jpg

This warm weather was sorely needed! Hopefully it will get everything growing again after the deep freeze!

dbltree

05-06-2007, 03:10 PM

I planted oats and Berseem Clover for spring/summer feed and then plow down/nitrogen source for fall brassicas.

Stuff came up over night!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsandBerseemClover.jpg

I took these last week...if we ever get some sun after all this rain it oughta be a foot high in no time!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsandBerseemClover2.jpg

I imagine I'll have to keep it clipped in order to till it under, otherwise I'm sure it would just end up wrapped in the tiller tines.

dbltree

05-22-2007, 01:12 AM

The rye has quickly reached a height to tall to till under without wrapping so I mowed it the other day.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Mowingrye.jpg

It's warm enough now to till it under and plant buckwheat, which I will till under also for a fall plot in lat summer.

The oats and berseem clover have really taken off!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnBerseem.jpg

The berseem is a very fast growing, albeit temporary clover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnBerseemClover.jpg

Great way to provide some summer forage and build soil.

dbltree

08-16-2007, 02:07 AM

Anybody have any pics of their Berseem clover?

I wasn't able to clip mine until after it went to seed and so it doesn't look so hot right now. http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5000214.jpg

It looked better early on...hoping I have time to till it under and plant some oats and rye there.

dbltree

09-11-2007, 01:27 AM

Since my corn and beans have been decimated by early September I deicded I better get some fall field rye planted.

I mixed a 1/3 oats with it which really they love before it frosts hard.

I had to brushhog down some ragweed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brushhog.jpg

While I was doing that Jess hit it a couple times with the tiller. The soil was moist from recent rains and tilled up great.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tillingforrye.jpg

I mixed field rye and oats in my bag seeder. Used a large mixing cup to dip it out and into the bag. By yourself it is nearly impossible to pour it into the bag http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryenoatsnbagseeder.jpg

I broadcast it on the tilled but not packed soil:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Broadcastingseed.jpg

Then Jess ran over it with the tiller down but the PTO off and the cultipacker behind:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tillernpacker.jpg

That covered most of the seed:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cultipacked-1.jpg

Few seeds left on top but packing the seedbed covers 95% of the seed and leaves a firm seedbed for quick germination:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Mostcovered.jpg

Good info in this link (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=214718&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) on where to buy seed and how much it costs.

Roughly $9-12 a bag for field rye (not ryegrass) and slightly more for oats. Considerably more for "brand name" oats...

Late August to mid September is best planting times...earlier is fine for oats and up to early October for rye and wheat.

Timely rains should get mine off to the races! http://www.iowawhitetail.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dbltree

09-26-2007, 02:37 AM

My grains have bee affected by hot weather and moisture for sure. I can really see a big difference where the soil has more moisture or shade from the still hot late summer sun.

It's up but not "thriving"...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyenOats.jpg

This is a small, shaded hidden plot with better soil moisture:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hiddenrye.jpg

Most of these pics are only a week after planting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyenOats1.jpg

I noticed some seed still had not germinated so I hope it will thicken a bit yet.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyenOats2.jpg

All of the spots I planted are on fairly poor ground with no fertilizer so I don't expect much. Enough to attract some attention this fall and perhaps some spring strutters as well...

dbltree

11-08-2007, 11:39 AM

Here's a few pics of some very small plots of rye and oats that is surrounded by alfalfa, corn and soybeans. As you can see they still grubbed it right to the ground! They ate as close as they dared to this tent blind where you can get an idea how tall it was.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GrazedClose.jpg

Not leaving much for winter...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grazedtotheground.jpg

Little better here...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Nippedrye.jpg

This hidden patch is full of scrapes and they are hitting it pretty hard also.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hiddenpatch-1.jpg

$20 worth of seed...nothing fancy...just seed oats and rye from my local feed n seed dealer.. ($20,000 in equipment but hey...a man NEEDS toys! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif )

Scratch up a little patch, throw on some seed and your in business!

dbltree

12-13-2007, 03:41 AM

We ask what are deer hitting this time of year? Here's some trail cam pictures from a small "garden size" plot of rye/oats that I have perhaps 1500 TC pics from this fall.

They hit it mostly at night because it's an open area, alfalfa on one side and corn/beans within feet of it. They visit all the other fields but they can't seem to leave the rye alone and it's grubbed to the ground now.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/12-3Rye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/12-6Rye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/Snowcoveredrye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/Stillfeeding12-10rye.jpg

Those pics are right thru the ice, snow and more ice from first shotgun thru the recent ice storm. In a week I get 200-400 pictures just to give one an idea of how hard it gets hit.

I would like to add...you can spend your money on whatever type of seed rye/oats you wish...it's your money...but this is just plain seed oats and rye. $11 a bag...

I buy mine at the local Seed N Feed store but Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=22&org=0) can ship it right to your home if your not sure where to buy it.

Easy, cheap, lasts thru the entire hunting season and I can't ever recall someone saying "gee...they never touched my rye/wheat/oats this fall"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

dbltree

12-24-2007, 03:27 PM

Still getting lots of action in my rye plots even with all the snow:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/Dec12Buckinrye.jpg

Dec 22nd:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/Dec22DeerinRye.jpg

Did I mention that gobblers love to strut in rye plots in the spring?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/BossGobblers.jpg

It's true that corn or soybeans left standing will draw like crazy all winter but they won't take a pounding in a small plot and you sure won't plant an acre for 20 bucks...

dbltree

03-09-2008, 08:09 AM

So you have a plot or two of rye, wheat or triticale that your not going to frost seed white clover into. Perhaps you plan on rotating it to brassicas in late summer or even back to cereal grains.

Right now is a perfect time to frost seed Red Clover and take advantage of it's ability to produce a tremndous amount of nitrogen and "green manure" to your soil when plowed/tilled under.

By now we all know that nitrogen (46% urea for most of us)has become etremely expensive. Why spend the time and money lugging fertilizer bags when you can frost seed a few pounds of red clover seed right now and let Mother nature do the rest! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

It's hard to beat the soil surface that grazed rye or wheat has this time of year for frost seeding...perfect!! Just spread it on and let it grow thru the summer and then plow it under when you are ready to plant brassicas or cereal grains.

It's something anyone can do with very minimal equipment and the clover will provide some early summer grazing and a great place for poults or chicks to forage as insects are attracted to the flowering clover.

You may need to clip it once or twice to keep it from going to seed but otherwise it's so easy..even I could do it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Winter Cereal Grains and Red Clover (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM2025.pdf)

Green Manures (http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/MagRack/COG/COGHandbook/COGHandbook_1_5.htm)

Red Clover is pretty "forgiving" and you can get away with lower PH and fertilizer requirments but here is info if you would like to "spice" it up a little!

Fertilizing alfalfa and clover (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/soilfert/sf728w.htm)

Cover crops and green manures (http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/covercrop.html)

Basics of Green Manuring (http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/Publications/EAP51.htm)

Ampac Seed Clover types - 100 #'s acre of nitrogen (http://www.ampacseed.com/clover1.htm)

Welter Seed - Clover seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Plenty of reasons to get some red clover seed and start soil building today!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

dbltree

05-20-2008, 07:28 PM

Just a couple pics of the Alta Swede Red Clover I planted for a plowdown, green manure/nitrogen fixing crop.

I frost seeded it in March...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FrostSeededRedClover.jpg

This spot is in some rye...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRCinRye.jpg

This spot was oats last fall so of course is pretty bar now...perfect for frost seeding...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRedClover.jpg

Pics were taken a few weeks ago so it's picking up speed now. I'm not sure how red clover will compare to Berseem Clover for a plow down. The advantage of RC is that it could be seeded with a fall crop of rye or wheat or frost seeded while berseem is an annual and cannot not be frost seeded.

Remember this clover is not for "deer feed" but just an inexpensive clover seed for soil building purposes. With the price of fertilizer, natural soil builders are looking better and better.

It's almost time to plant buckwheat any time from late May to early June for southern Iowa. Hope to plant mine after Memorial Day sometime.

dbltree

06-03-2008, 04:25 AM

June 1st update on frost seeded plow down red clover...

Into a rye plot...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRDo601.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRDJune1.jpg

Different farm/soil ect. but also into what is left of a rye plot...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRCclover6-1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRCat80.jpg

This is some on some very poor clay soil...note that it is not as green and is much shorter...it is however surviving...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FSRCpoorgrd.jpg

Since we have been discussing the attributes of rotating food plots and using legumes to provide nitrogen for subsquent plots: Rotating plots year to year (http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276813#Post276813)

here are a few pics of Berseem Clover which is a great in expensive annual clover that can fix nitrogen and feed your deer at the same time. It CANNOT be frost seeded however...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Berseemclover6-1.jpg

and a reminder that forage oats can provide quick spring cover and feed along with berseem clover and plowed down for a fall crop.

Deer love oats of any kind but forage oats such as these from nannyslayer can stand heavy grazing a little better.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/S5001100.jpg

While I frost seeded my red clover I could have just as easily seeded it with the rye last fall and it would have had an even better head start. It could be seeded with brassicas or frost seeded into the "aftermath" in late winter.

Berseem is just a great clover if you have to till up plots in the spring. I added it to almost all of my plots including white clover and alfalfa seedings.

It won't last year to year but it grows quickly, produces high protein forage and fixes nitrogen all at the same time.

Berseem is in most expensive clover mixes...which is great, except your paying 8 bucks a pound for seed that sells for less then $2 a #

For spring grazing and green manure plowdown, sow oats at 100-120#'s per acre (32#'s per bushel) and berseem clover at 10-20#'s per acre.

Seed red clover at 8-12#'s per acre.

Berseem Clover seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=332)

Plow-down Red Clover seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

Time to plant buckwheat is you are including it in your cover crop rotation!

dbltree

06-10-2008, 02:56 AM

Early June is a great time to plant buckwheat for as a cover crop when we need something to fill in before a fall crop. It's a great weed inhibitor and soil builder.

We sprayed earlier last week with roundup and then tilled a strip along a lane.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TillinforBuckwheat.jpg

I had some buckwheat seed left from last year..

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WelterBuckwheat.jpg

It's an easy to sow seed and because it was last years seed I put it on pretty heavy.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Buckwheatseed.jpg

The ground was still pretty wet but it was hot and windy so we let it dry out, tilled it again, seeded it and just rolled the tiller back over it lightly. Plant at roughly 50#'s per acre.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Buckwheatplanted6-7.jpg

Poured again Sunday night so we'll see what comes up...

Buckwheat seed source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=289)

Buckwheat Fact Sheet (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0116.html)

Buckwheat Production (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/crops/a687w.htm)

Buckwheat for Green Manure (http://www2.ctahr.hawaii.edu/sustainag/GreenManures/buckwheat.asp)

Buckwheat (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/buckwheat.html)

The Basics of Green Manuring (http://eap.mcgill.ca/Publications/EAP51.htm)

dbltree

06-22-2008, 03:41 PM

Some pics of my buckwheat that I planted a few weeks ago...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/2weekbuckwheat.jpg

The ground was plenty wet at that time and the clay packed a little so germination varies a little.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/YoungBuckwheat.jpg

Easy stuff to grow for a short term ground cover/green manure/ temporary food source.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BuckwheatStrip.jpg

We'll just watch it grow and till it under when it's starts to flower well. I'll post pics every month to show progress and the time period it takes to reach flowering stage and plow down.

dbltree

07-01-2008, 03:06 PM

This thread is meant to cover all aspects of planting cereal grains (oats, rye, wheat, triticale and buckwheat) for not only food plots but soil building as well.

I also have tried to cover the use of various legumes that can be grown to not only provide high protein feed but produce copious amounts of nitrogen for your next food plot.

When ever we can grow a combination of cereal grains and legumes we are going to not only "kill two birds with one stone" but perhaps bag the whole flock!

Grains such as oats, rye and wheat that can be left until they produce "straw" help improve our soils with organic matter, adding carbon and and avenue for moisture to follow and a means of holding it there.

Adding legumes such as berseem clover, red clover, field peas and hairy vetch also add more organic matter and up to 200 units of nitrogen per acre!

Several very easy and inexpensive options include adding red clover to your fall rye, wheat and oat mix. This option works best if one can leave the red clover until the second year but either way it will improve your soil and add nitrogen.

When spring planting (following a previous years brassica crop for instance) then planting forage oats, berseem clover and field peas can do the trick.

The forage oats from nannyslayer have been heavily grazed by deer this spring but have "taken a lickin and kept on tickin"!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ForageOats6-28.jpg

adding berseem clover makes an unbeatable food source and cover crop/soil building combo!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BerseemClover-2.jpg

Keep in mind that these are plantings for which seed is relatively inexpensive or...you can purchase urea at a thousand bucks a ton!@*%! (or some such...I'm sure it changes on a weekly basis...)

Hairy vetch is another excellent source of nitrogen that can be planted with rye in a fall food plot and left through the following summer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/HairyVetch.jpg

Field peas and oats can be planted in late March if possible and also make a great combo for feeding deer and building your soil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FieldPeaHt.jpg

Times are changing, sometimes in the blink of an eye and perhaps we need to change back to some of the tactics our grandfathers used that didn't require petroleum products to grow their crops.

Drag your eyes off of that "big buck picture" on the side of the bag and consider some other options that will feed your deer and your soil!

Vining Peas for sustainable Agriculture (http://www.unilever.com/Images/2003%20Sustainable%20Vining%20Peas%20-%20Good%20Agricultural%20Practice%20Guidelines_tcm 13-5323.pdf)

Field Peas for cover crop (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/cover_crops01/fieldpeas.htm)

dbltree

07-07-2008, 06:30 PM

One month update on the buckwheat

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/7-5Buckwheat.jpg

On fertile soil this would most likely be 8-12" higher but on this soil I'm just happy if anything grows at all...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/EarlyJulyBuckwheat.jpg

On my barren clay subsoil's a constant supply of rain is needed or anything I plant quickly shrivels up and dies so the rains that have been a curse for so many are a blessing on my place.

Of course my farms have some beautiful top soil as well but those are either being farmed or in CRP because the soil is HEL.

That leaves me "fooling" around with little "odd" spots that often would be better off planted to trees...but that would leave me without a "challenge"... ;)

This shows some frost seeded plow down red clover that even with the rain has just barely survived on this poor subsoil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCloveronPoorground.jpg

Unless one hauls in manure, old hay or top soil you cannot expect to improve this type of soil over night. They ruined it "overnight" years ago and now it will take years to undo the damage.

I have seen many old pastures with like kind soils in this area...barely able to support vegetation of any kind let alone actually feed a cow.

It takes time and patience to gradually improve these soils but many "hunting farms" have plenty of these problem spots to deal with. Red Clover and birds-foot trefoil are two legumes pretty adaptable to poor soil and easily frost seeded into mowed or killed sod in these areas.

This is only a 100 yards away but better soil and the clover I frost seeded in the rye looks wayyy better!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCloverinRye7-5.jpg

Keep in mind that for maximum nitrogen production from clover it should be in the ground and growing for at least 6 months, so the longer it is there the better.

Seeding red clover into a fall plot of rye/oats/wheat etc. will give you a couple months "head start" over frost seeding. One has the option then of plowing the clover down for a fall plot or clipping it so you have a nice lush red clover plot for fall and leaving it one more year.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/PlowDownRCinRye.jpg

This rye was mixed with oats and then pounded to death all winter so it's extremely thin but even if it was thicker it could easily be left "as is" and the whole thing clipped perhaps in September. The regrowth will be very attractive to deer this fall!

dbltree

07-21-2008, 03:48 PM

Buckwheat at 6 weeks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Buckwheat8weeks.jpg

Pretty well flowered out now so I'll keep an eye on it and till it under before it goes to seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Buckwheat2months.jpg

The ground was wet when we planted and you can see the tire track running down the center of it. Just an example of why not to work ground wet and how soil compaction can be a real problem.

It's amazing that buckwheat can grow on this hardpan soil with no fertilizer. It would be a foot taller on good fertile soil.

The plowdown red clover and berseem clover are doing great this summer also, making "free" nitrogen every day!

dbltree

07-21-2008, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Do all clovers, not just red, add nitrogen every year to your soil?

All legumes make their own nitrogen and that includes alfalfa, clovers (of any kind) soybeans, peas and hairy vetch...just to name a few.

Some legumes are capable of fixing more N then others.

Alfalfa, berseem clover, most white and red clover, peas and vetch can add up to 200 units of nitrogen per acre.

At today's costs of nitrogen...that's nothing to sneeze at!

dbltree

07-24-2008, 12:47 PM

My buckwheat is just starting to go to seed...just barely

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Buckwheatseed-1.jpg

It's at that point where one wants to plow, disc or till it under. You want to make sure it's green to get the most soil benefits and add organic matter to your soil.

It's a little to early to plant any fall grains so I'll just till it under, and then till it again in mid August and plant oats and rye. At that point I'll add some red clover that I can leave thru next summer which will add more soil organic matter and a good amount of nitrogen for next falls plot.

We'll want to think about picking up our fall grain seed such as oats, winter wheat, rye and triticale in the coming weeks ahead.

Always check with your local ag supply/seed and feed store because shipping can be expensive.

These are just some examples to give you a rough idea what a bag of seed should cost and a supplier if you cannot locate something nearby.

Frank Forage Oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=195)

Fall Annual Field Rye (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=201) NOTE: DO NOT plant ryegrass...ask for FIELD RYE!

Winter Wheat (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=327)

Winter Triticale (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=221) is a cross between wheat and rye and is great for grazing.

Add Field Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=228)

or

Austrian Winter Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=278) to spice up your grains and add a legume to your mix.

For 20-30 bucks an acre you can add an inexpensive plow down red clover that will be working all thru next year fixing nitrogen for your next food plot.

Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

with nitrogen costing a grand or more a ton (give or take a few hundred... ;) ) it figures out like this...

Each pound of actual nitrogen (a 100#'s of 46-0-0 urea contains 46#'s of actual nitrogen) could cost you roughly a buck a pound.

So for 20 bucks your red clover can produce upwards of 200 units of nitrogen per acre. Easy as pie to spread 10#'s of clover seed in a small hand seeder but start hauling 50# bags of fertilizer, spreading it (not to mention writing a check for it) and the clover seed starts to sound real good!

I frost seeded this red clover last winter into rye and we clipped it recently:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Redcloverpllowown.jpg

All summer this red clover has provided a high protein food source for deer, an insect attractant for turkey poults and naturally fixing nitrogen at the same time. How you gonna beat that?

I can choose to leave it one more year or till it under and re-plant grains or brassicas but either way when I do...I will also till under some wonderful organic matter to loosen my heavy clay soil and build soil nutrients each time I do so.

It's a win win deal!!

If you live near nannyslayer or Osenbaughs they also can fix you up with most of your fall food plot needs. I was very happy with the forage oats and field peas from Brian, so keep him in mind. The shed gathering is coming up so that might be a good place to "swap seed" if Brian will be there.

Overview of Cover Crops and Green Manures (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/covercrop.html)

Cover Crops (http://www.covercrops.msu.edu/)

Sustainable agriculture (http://www.sare.org/)

Managing Cover Crops (http://www.sare.org/publications/covercrops/covercrops.pdf)

dbltree

07-24-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Paul, I just had a great conversation with Welter seed and probably talked the most helpful seed store individual I ever have! I ordered rye, oats, red clover, alfalfa and DER (brassicas). I am going to plant my alfalfa, and the others this weekend because of time constraints and my farm being 2 hrs away. Is it too early?? If so, I can have a friend help me out. Thanks!

It's perfect timing for alfalfa and brassicas but it's too early for oats and rye.

If you plant cereal grains now they will get to tall and rank and unpalatable to deer by October.

You need to wait 2-4 weeks yet, last week in August perhaps thru Labor Day weekend.

dbltree

07-25-2008, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: DEERBOY
So dbltree if I'm reading this correctly about labor day weekend I could plant rye with red clover seed and it would work out ok.

That would be perfect timing!

You have a few weeks either way and you can go back thru this thread and notice the posting dates when I planted various grains and see how they turned out.

You can plant rye way up into late October but it will have limited growth for hunting season.

If I can I try to shoot for late August so it has time to get some decent growth before Oct first. Growth depends of course on soil moisture to some extent. So if we don't get rain, germination can be delayed a little.

Labor Day works out for most food plotters because most have the long weekend off and it's a great time to "git er done" and you'll have a great fall food plot!

Remember: use FIELD RYE not ryegrass!! Many ag stores/seed supply workers have no idea what you need or are talking about. So you need to be certain of not only what you are asking for but...that your getting what you asked for...

dbltree

07-25-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Is there anyway to plant alfalfa and oats together as I think you said alfalfa would be OK to do now but Oats would be to early. Any suggestions? I guess I could just do alfalfa now and if it fails do oat/rye combo later.

If you plant alfalfa correctly and we get occasional rains there is no reason why it should fail. It should provide some fall grazing also, just going to be a little light...tender and tasty though!

dbltree

07-26-2008, 02:35 PM

So...I'm encouraging all of you to include red clover in your cereal grain food plots this fall to take advantage of it's ability to fix/produce "free" nitrogen for next years food plot.

It can only do that it you either buy preinoculated seed or add inoculate just before you seed. Regardless if I use preinoculated seed or not I always add fresh inoculate!

It's cheaper then a gallon of gas and it's good insurance! The inoculate bacteria will not remain alive on the seed for long, so preinoculated seed is NOT always a sure bet.

White clover and alfalfa produce/fix higher amounts of N then does red clover but seed is expensive and some red clovers are inexpensive and used soley for the purpose of being used for green manure/nitrogen production.

The following links will help you understand how legumes fix nitrogen, which ones produce the most N, how plants can use N fixed by legumes and the importance of using fresh inoculate.

Inoculating Forage Legumes (http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1083.htm)

INOCULATION OF FORAGE LEGUMES (http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/agr90.pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Inoculation Recipe* (Sample)
••Place 25 lbs of seed in a tub.
••Use a commercial sticking agent or make one by diluting syrup or molasses with water, using 9 parts
of water to one part of syrup. Shake well.
••Add only enough of the "sticker" solution to moisten the 25 lbs of seed and mix thoroughly, coating
every seed with sticker. Don't add too much liquid! If you do, seed will stick together and will not flow
through the seeder.
••Add 6-7 ounces of dry inoculant. mix to coat and dry the seeds. This is four times the rate
recommended by most manufacturers, but is usually necessary for good nodulation in Kentucky,
especially for alfalfa, bird's-foot trefoil or crown vetch. Seeds should be covered with inoculant.
••Air dry the seeds if necessary by spreading them in the shade. To speed the drying process, add
more peat-based inoculant or a small amount of finely ground limestone.
••Plant seed as soon as possible after inoculation. If they can't be planted immediately, store in a cool
place. Repeat inoculation if seeds are not planted within 24 hours. Do no leave inoculated seed in direct
sunlight. Slightly moist soil provides the best conditions for bacteria.
*Adapted from North Carolina State University Publication AG-226. </div></div>

Inoculate Source (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=21&org=0) Less the 5 bucks will inoculate 50 pounds of seed!

Nitrogen Fixation in Forage Legumes (http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/tibetmanual/08._Nitrogen_fixation.htm)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prepare a sticking agent as follows:

Ø mix 60 g of syrup or molasses with 240 g of water - shake or stir well; or

Ø mix 1 cup (200 g) sugar with 2 cups (450 g or 450 ml) of water; or

Ø just use milk

Do not use cola drinks or other carbonated beverages - their pH is near 2.0 and harmful to bacteria </div></div>

Cool Season Legumes (http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is0910.htm)

LEGUME NITROGEN FIXATION AND TRANSFER (http://overton.tamu.edu/clover/cool/nfix.htm) This link is very important to read and understand but this is an important part of it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A common misconception is that the nitrogen is released into the soil from the legume roots. Research has shown there is a release of some soluble nitrogen compounds such as amino acids and ammonium from intact legume roots and nodules, but it is an insignificant amount. The primary pathways for nitrogen transfer from the legume to the soil are through grazing livestock and decomposition of dead legume plant material. When legume forage is consumed by grazing livestock, from 80 to 90% of the nitrogen in that forage passes through the animal and is excreted in the urine and feces. Unfortunately about 50% of the nitrogen in the urine is lost through volatilization. Another problem is the distribution of feces and urine on the pasture. With continuous grazing at low stocking rates, much of the animal excreta is concentrated around the water source and under shade trees. Animal excreta distribution is improved with moderate to high stocking rates and with rotational grazing systems where stock density is higher.

The root system and unused leaves and stems of annual legumes die at plant maturity and are decomposed by soil microbes over time. Nitrogen contained in this plant material is released over time and is available to other plants. However, because most of this nitrogen is not available until after the legume dies, only grasses that follow the legume growing season can use it. This is a major nitrogen transfer pathway for cool-season annual legumes overseeded on warm-season perennial grasses because the clover-growing period occurs before the warm-season grass-growing period.

</div></div>

By this we understand that we need to plow/disc or till under the red clover preceeding our next years crop of cereal grains or brassicas. Only then will the N be released an available to the next crops.

Forage Legumes and Nitrogen Production (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-3101/PSS-2590web.pdf)

Legume Crops Fix Nitrogen (http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/SoilCrop/extension/Newsletters/2001/Nitrogen/nit4.html)

Beyond Red Clover: Legume Choices for Wisconsin Pastures (http://www.uwex.edu/ces/cty/columbia/ag/grazing/articles/grazing11.pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Red Clover (Trifolium pratense L.) is the single most widely planted forage legume in the world. </div></div>

RED CLOVER (http://www.kansasruralcenter.org/publications/redclover.pdf) <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Two cuttings red clover harvested for hay with only
stubble and roots for plowdown will provide 40-60
pounds per acre of nitrogen credits. Two-thirds of the
nitrogen is in the above ground growth, with one-third
of the nitrogen below ground</div></div>

Red Clover Seed Source (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

Value of Legumes for Plowdown Nitrogen (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0111.html)
This link explains why our red clover (or any forage legume) needs to be in the ground and growing for at least 6 months and preferably 12-18 months.

Nitrogen Contribution to Succeeding Corn from Alfalfa and Red Clover (http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/1/96)
Legumes and grains (http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030210logsdon/030210ch11.htm)

Understanding Nitrogen (N) (http://cropwatch.unl.edu/nitrogenissue/nitrogen.pdf)

Congratulations! You now know everything there is to know about legumes, fixing nitrogen, inoculating seed and the value of it all...well...almost..... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

dbltree

07-26-2008, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Great post! If cost is not an issue, is it BETTER to plant white clovers for nitrogen every year that you plow up for a fall seeding than red?

4 pounds of Alice White Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=264) is still less then 20 bucks an acre and it can produce almost 200 units of nitrogen vs 110 units for red clover so technically white clover is better.

For brassicas and fall grains however they will never use that much N compared to corn which would happily use all it could.

Red Clover might produce more mass for plow-down but otherwise whites would be fine. I guess it would just be hard for me to plow down a beautiful year old stand of Alice!

dbltree

07-29-2008, 07:13 PM

Should I mow the rye if the deer don't keep it short?

That's about the only option that might work for you at this point. Perhaps deer will keep it grazed down for you.

Rye does grow fast so keep us posted on how yours does...won't hurt anything but it's likely not going to be attractive to deer planted this early.

Welcome to IW! :)

dbltree

07-29-2008, 11:38 PM

On one of the farms I hunt the farmer had about 10 acres of what he called rye planted and he mowed it and baled it a few times per year. It stayed green all winter and the deer absolutely POUNDED it. They would dig through a foot of snow to get to the stuff. The field was planted in this for several years and I'm about positive he didn't replant it every year. From reading this thread I assumed it was the same as the grain rye that is talked about here, but after the above comment I'm not so sure. I just figured it kept growing since he never let it go to seed.

I guess my question is this- Is there something else that stays green all winter that can be referred to as rye? And how long will the grain rye grow if never allowed to seed out? I have missed that stuff ever since it went back into corn.

Rye is like wheat...it grows quickly in the spring (after being fall planted) then matures, turns brown and like wheat the grain can be harvested via a combine.

Ryegrass is a "grass" and nothing like rye but deer aren't really that crazy about it.

Field rye will stay green all winter and deer will pound it all winter and early spring but I can't see anyone baling it several times...maybe once in early spring?

I'm not really sure what the farmer you are talking about had planted??

He may have re-planted it and you weren't aware of it??

dbltree

07-30-2008, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: timekiller
I'm going to have to ask him, and find out what it was and how he managed the field since its got my curiosity now.

Yes...I'm curious myself;)

Here are some pics of field rye:

From the Living Crop Museum (http://www.livingcropmuseum.info/CropDetail/Rye/living_crop_museum_CerealGrains_Rye.htm)

April Rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AprilRye.jpg

May Rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MayRye.jpg

June Rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JuneRye.jpg

July Rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JulyRye.jpg

http://weeds.cas.psu.edu/imgs/research/cereal.jpg

http://soilcrop.tamu.edu/photogallery/haygrassesforages+/images/rye.jpg

My own rye in September (seeded late August) http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryenpeapatch.jpg

Oct 1st

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct1ryenpeas.jpg

Nov 1st...grazed to the ground!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryenpeas11-2.jpg

12-12 Rye

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/12-12Rye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WellGrazedRye.jpg

March Rye - you would swear it is dead!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyeinMarch.jpg

but it sure is a busy place! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Wildlife/Mixedbag.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Wildlife/Turkeys4.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Wildlife/Daybreak.jpg

April Rye it springs to life!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/04-01-rye.jpg

Cereal Rye (http://weeds.cas.psu.edu/cerealrye.html)

Cereal Rye in the NW (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/html/em/em8694/)

Quote:
Quick facts: Cereal rye
Common names Cereal rye, rye
Hardiness zone 3 (see Figure 1)
pH tolerance 4.5*8.0; optimum is 5.0*7.0
Best soil type Wide range, tolerates poor fertility
Flood tolerance Low
Drought tolerance High
Shade tolerance Moderate
Mowing tolerance High until maturity
Dry matter accumulation Kill at 2*3 tons/acre
N accumulation 70 lb/acre at 3 tons/acre
N to following crop None
Uses Survives in cold, droughty, and/or infertile soils. Use to protect soil, smother weeds, scavenge N, and improve tilth. Often planted with legumes.

All About Cereal Rye (http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/CCrop.exe/show_crop_12)

Using Rye as a green manure (http://www2.ctahr.hawaii.edu/sustainag/GreenManures/rye.asp)

Winter Rye (http://www.uvm.edu/vtvegandberry/factsheets/winterrye.html)

Rye- Grain (http://www.ngfa.org/trygrains_rye.asp)

Rye as a cover crop (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/rye.html)

Small Grain Cover Crops for Corn and Soybean (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1999.pdf)

Cover Crops of the midwest (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/ilf/ILFNewsletter/ILFnewsW06.pdf)

Cover Cropsin the Corn belt (http://www.leopold.iastate.edu/pubs/nwl/2006/2006-4-leoletter/cover.htm)

Rye is one of my favorite cereal grains because of it's winter hardiness, it's ability to withstand heavy grazing and recover and it's merits as a cover crop/soil builder.

Quote:
Cereal rye is an excellent choice as a winter cover crop because it rapidly provides ground cover to hold the soil in place. It has deep roots that help prevent soil from becoming compacted in annually tilled fields. Rye’s extensive root system enables it to scavenge nutrients from the soil profile. In a no-till situation, it also can help control weeds.

Rye is an N scavenger...

Quote:
Rye, like wheat, will respond to nitrogen (N) fertilizer. When it follows corn and other crops fertilized with nitrogen, however, it seldom requires additional N. Rye has a good reputation for scavenging residual soil nitrogen when it follows other crops, and it is commonly grown for this purpose. Research indicates that rye can extract 40 to 80 pounds per acre of residual N. This reduces the potential for nitrate leaching into groundwater and conserves nitrogen fertilizer inputs. See the two enclosed articles about rye’s use as a nitrogen-scavenging catch crop. Medium soil-test levels of phosphorus and potassium will be adequate for rye grown as a cover crop.

Principles of Sustainable Weed Management for Croplands (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/weed.html)

Weed Control With Winter Rye (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/smgrains/a199w.htm)

Quote:
Winter rye provides much more effective weed control than spring-seeded small grains and more than winter wheat. Late summer cultivation to prepare a proper rye seedbed kills many weeds. Rye germinates and grows rapidly when planted early in September when soil temperatures are high and if moisture conditions are adequate. Rye seedlings with their rapid growth tend to compete with and smother germinating weeds in the fall. Early vigorous spring growth provides strong competition to spring-germinating weeds. Likewise, the early rye harvest helps to prevent weeds from maturing and shattering seed. This is especially true for a weed like wild oats.

Chemical compounds that inhibit weed seed germination have been extracted from rye plant residues in laboratory experiments.

Wild oat, ragweed, dandelion, common lambsquarters, redroot pigweed, Canada thistle and quackgrass are weed species reported to be controlled by rye. These and many other weeds have their growth retarded by vigorous growth of the rye plant. Mature plant residue after harvest continues to shade the soil surface reducing weed seed germination in late summer.

Hard to beat field rye in your management program :)

dbltree

07-30-2008, 08:45 PM

He could have planted perennial rye grass.

I agree...it's the part about deer actually liking it that baffles me?? Normally they don't pay much attention to it but maybe they had nothing else or...there was clover mixed with it?

Perennial ryegrass is less winter-hardy than orchardgrass and tall fescue and less drought-tolerant than smooth bromegrass. Studies in Wisconsin, however, suggest that perennial ryegrass is able to overwinter in colder climates, even where snow cover is unreliable. In the Pacific Northwest, perennial ryegrass will survive most winter weather conditions. However, during very harsh winters, it may winter kill. Thus, it should be considered a short-lived perennial.

Not exactly a "stay green" all winter food source like field rye either???

Perennial Ryegrass (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/html/pnw/pnw503/)

dbltree

07-30-2008, 10:57 PM

if you planted it too early wouldn't the deer still eat it? just before you were hunting there?

You bet...they will eat any cereal grains up to a point and then as the pictures show, the grains get to tough, rank and unpalatable and they leave it alone.

That's why timing your fall planting of cereal grains is important so that the lush sweet tender growth coincides with hunting season.

timekiller

07-31-2008, 12:13 AM

Oh boy, now I've got us all confused.

I called the farmer's son and spoke with him about it today. At first he thought it was just alfalfa, but when I mentioned that his dad had referred to it as rye he remembered fall planting it in rye at first. He thought that they must have put alfalfa in it at some point because the rye wouldn't carry over year to year.
From what I remember (it's been 4-5 years now) the field looked like the pics of the April rye, but I don't ever remember it growing straight up like the older pictures. Maybe some seeds could have dropped and it replanted itself?

I'm just going to stop by and talk to the landowner because I'm really confused now. I remember shooting geese off it during the early season and it was just like a field of really thick grass. The deer would just pour out of the bottoms and cross no tilled corn stubble to get to this field during the late ML season. There were also two other alfalfa fields I can think of in the immediate area, so it wasn't like it was their only choice.

Maybe it was alfalfa like his son thought, but I remember it staying green and I do know what that looks like.

I better just go find out first hand before I drive myself crazy.

dbltree

08-05-2008, 03:39 PM

My buckwheat was just starting to go to seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BuckweatReadytoTill.jpg

and a few weeds were making there way also

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BuckwheatnWeeds.jpg

So I tilled it all under and re-planted buckweat. Something to think about...annual weeds and grasses make great green manure just like tilling under buckwheat...as long as you don't let them go to seed! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'll till it under again in late August and plant oats, rye and clover.

It all makes organic matter and helps enrich the soil so don't get to excited about a few weeds in a plot that your going to till under. Every time you till...more weeds will germinate, no way around it. We just want to make sure we till,clip or spray at some point so they don't leave another 100 years worth of seed there... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

In the brassica thread I showed pictures of tilling under clover...whole lot easier then buying, hauling and spreading urea to provide nitrogen. And dry fertilizer will do nothing to build up your soil and create a moisture retaining nutrient rich soil.

Little tough tilling down nice plots of clover though...

This plot of red clover was covered with dew so looks a little funny but it sure tilled up nice.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCloverbeforeplowdown.jpg

This is berseem and red clover

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/ClippedClover-2.jpg

Just like "harvesting" money

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Farmin.jpg

A tremendous amount of organic matter and potential N as it breaks down

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OrganicMatter-1.jpg

It takes a little bit to till that much under (I clipped it a week earlier to shorten it some)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TilledRC.jpg

Just filling the top layer of soil with foliage and roots that create a literal "sponge" to hold moisture and nurtients.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OrganicMatter.jpg

Forget what it looks like...pretty is a s pretty does

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TilledClover.jpg

Eventually one can get it stirred in and chopped up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TilledReadytoplant.jpg

Remember that for the most nitrogen benefits, clover should be allowed to grow at least 6 months but even if it only has 3 months it still provides a portion of your next crops nitrogen requirements.

Add red or white clover with your late summer/early fall plots to till under next fall and you will have somewhere around 100-200#'s of free nitrogen.

Brassicas can use roughly 75#'s of N and cereal grains easily a 100#'s so most clovers could easily provide all your N requirements.

A good crop of Alice white clover plowed under the second year could provide N requirements for a crop of corn or sorghum.

4#'s of Alice seed (or any good white clover)can be at your door for roughly 20 bucks vs $160-200 for urea not to mention the soil benefits of tilling under green manure.

Alfalfa is also capable of providing up to 200 units of N and with roots that can go nearly 10 feet into subsoil it can pull nutrients from deep in the subsoil, later to be tilled in on the surface. Something to keep in mind when your alfalfa plot begins to thin and it's time to rotate to something else. Corn or brassicas would be great followups to alfalfa.

It's still way to early to plant cereal grains, late August being the best time frame so you have plenty of time to pickup some red or white clover seed from nannslayer, Welters or your favorite local seed source.

4#'s of white clover or 12#'s of red clover...till, broadcast or drill oats, rye, winter wheat, roll, seed clover, roll again...easy as pie and money in the bank! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Some additional information can be gleaned from gardeners...the principal is all the same.

The Living Soil (http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/files/gardennotes/211.pdf)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The soil is a living ecosystem, although most living components are
invisible to the naked eye. As soil microorganisms, insects, and worms feed
on organic matter (e.g. compost, manure, and many manufactured fertilizers
and pesticides) nutrients become available for plant use. Their activity also
significantly improves soil structure, reducing compaction, and increasing
water and air movement.
Soil organisms do much of the work for gardeners of improving soil tilth
(suitability of a soil to support plant growth, especially as it relates to ease
of tillage, fitness for a seedbed, impedance to seedling emergence and root
penetration) and making nutrients available to plants.
Encouraging their efforts is central to building a healthy fertile soil
supportive to optimum plant growth. They require an environment that is
damp (like a wrung out sponge, i.e. – near field capacity) but not soggy (has
air – i.e.- aerobic), between 50 – 90o F. They require organic matter from
soil amendments (compost, crop residues) and/or mulch as a food source for
bacteria and fungi.
</div></div>

Soil Quality (http://soilquality.org/home.html)

Soil Managment (http://cache.search.yahoo.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=improving+soil+tilth&fr=b1ie7&u=www.hort.cornell.edu/wolfe/soilhealth/N.%2520Management%2520strategies.pdf&w=improving+soil+tilth&d=ew870C72RN2E&icp=1&.intl=us)

Soil Management and fertilization (http://cmg.colostate.edu/gardennotes/711.pdf)

Soil Biology (http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC7403.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can you benefit from better management of the soil biological community?

Reduced input costs. Less fertilizer may be needed if nutrient cycling becomes more efficient and less fertilizer is lost from the rooting zone. Fewer pesticides are needed where a diverse set of pest-control organisms are active. As soil structure improves, tillage becomes easier and potentially less costly.

Pollution prevention. Soil organisms filter and detoxify chemicals and absorb the excess nutrients that would otherwise become pollutants when they reach groundwater or surface water.

Improved yield and crop quality. Soil organisms are key to forming good soil structure or tilth. Good tilth promotes better root development and water storage. Many microorganisms enhance crop growth or reduce the activity of disease organisms that can degrade the quality of food and feed.

</div></div>

Benefits of Cover Crops for Soil Health (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AG277)

Soil Health menu (http://www.ibiblio.org/farming-connection/soilhlth/home.htm)

dbltree

08-05-2008, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Is there a huge difference between winter wheat and rye as far as deer preferences?

A huge difference...no, rye or winter triticale are considered more palatable and better suited to grazing.

Rye has so many more positive attributes that to me it just doesn't make sense to plant wheat.

That being said... thousands of acres of winter wheat are grazed through the winter months by cattlemen across states like Kansas and Oklahoma. They then harvest the wheat and market the grain whereas rye is not that profitable to market.

Rye is more commonly planted after farmers harvest corn early for silage, sometimes they fly the seed on before harvest. Then they pasture cattle on it thru the winter and early spring.

Don't give deer to much credit...they are opportunistic...give them any cereal grain in a safe place and they are going to eat it...period!

Everyone gets caught up in all the hype and big ads but as far as I'm concerned you can throw all that out the window.

Plant rye...they will eat it...plant wheat...they will eat it...so why not plant the one that will improve your soil, help you with weed control and is able to survive quite honestly on almost nothing. Poor soils, drought, over grazing...don't even phase rye.

Add some oats to "sweeten" the pot and your good to go...until they combine a field of corn a 1/4 mile away, then all bets are off. ;)

dbltree

08-05-2008, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted By: guardianhntr
What is that damn weed in the photo? And what can I spray on my clover to kill them without getting the clover? I have been weedwhacking all summer and they are starting to get the best of me.

Just ragweed ...good link to broadleaf weed I'D's here: Broadleaf weeds (http://turfweeds.utk.edu/weeddb/broadleaf.asp)

Use 2-4DB Butyrac 200 (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4JG000.pdf) to control broadleaves in clover and alfalfa.

dbltree

08-06-2008, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted By: nannyslayer
Also, another thing that dbltree should add is that rye will bring nutrients up from deep in the soil, while winter wheat is more likely to use it up.

I have a few links on my work computer about rye as a cover crop and how they improve the soil fertility. I'll try to remember to post them up.

Thanks Brian! I did add some more links regarding that very subject back in the rye post a page back, but we welcome any additional info for sure.

I've been planting rye since I was old enough to run a tractor so were talking 40+ years and it's never let me down.

Ever wonder why the DOT uses rye rather then wheat or whatever on new road banks?....;)

dbltree

08-07-2008, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
If I was going to use fertilizer on my rye in 2 weeks and many recommend 100# per acre of 46% urea, what would Triple 13 be? 13% urea? I have two plots to do, one about 1/2 acre and the other about 3/4. Thought about putting in 1 bushel per plot (overkill but why not :). Thought about adding fertilizer but wanted to know exactly what to ask for at the elevator as they said 46% urea they were unfamiliar with.

Yikes! If they are "unfamiliar" with urea...that's scary! Urea is one of the most common forms of nitrogen (in dry form) in the world.

No matter...13-13-13 contains 13% nitrogen in every 100 pounds which means to get 78#'s of N we need 600 pounds per acre!! Yikes again!! :D

You see why we try to use a high nitrogen fertilizer such as urea!

Ammoniumnitrate is another source of N but it is nearly impossible to get since McVeigh used to blow up a building

Another option for small plots is to buy lawn fertilizer such as is available at Wal-Mart or Menards. They usually contain 28-29% nitrogen but if they contain weed killers DO NOT apply to clovers or brassicas unless you till it in before planting.

Bagged fertilizer is getting tougher to get as hardly anyone uses it in that form anymore.

I would also add that rye is a nitrogen scavenger so you don't need that much N if it's tough to find.

This is just general fertilizer facts and information that I posted in the brassica thread to answer the question "what is triple 19". Understanding more about commercial fertilizer and how we can replace all or part from natural crop rotations is important as prices rise.

Triple 19 is just a fertilizer combination of NITROGEN, POTASSIUM, AND PHOSPHORUS The "19"just means there is 19#'s in every 100#'s or 19%. There are common fertilizer mixes such as 6-24-24, 12-12-12, 19-19-19 46-0-0 etc. etc.

All the "numbers" tell you is how much of each of the 3 main elements are in a bag of fertilizer. If you buy it in bulk from an ag supply source, they can mix any combination your require. This is why we take soil tests so we know what nutrients our soils may be lacking and what might be required for the crop we'll be growing.

Sometimes you can buy fertilizers on sale at Wal-Mart, Menards, TSC and others...fertilizer is fertilizer as long as you understand what is in it.

DO NOT apply lawn fertilize containing week killers over the top of brassicas...it contains 2-4D and will kill them. Mix it in the soil and it won't be a problem. (cheaper to buy it without weedkiller however...)

Triple 19 is a good all around mix of equal amounts of N-P-K but brassicas prefer plenty of nitrogen so that's where the "300#'s" comes in. Using 300 pounds will give you 57 pounds of each element. You could get away with a 100#'s of 46-0-0 urea which is just nitrogen and does not contain the P and K elements.

at $20-25 a 50# bag, 300#'s could easily run $120-150 per acre which makes 15 bucks worth of red clover seed seem like a pretty darn good deal...huh?

Here are some links to help you understand a little more about fertilizer and what the "numbers" mean.

About Fertilizer (http://www.tfi.org/factsandstats/fertilizer.cfm)

NITROGEN, POTASSIUM, AND PHOSPHORUS (http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/AgriFert/agrifert.html)

Fertilizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fertilizer)

Nutrient Topics (http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/soilfertility/nutrienttopics/samplingtesting.html) Use the drop window to explore all types of nutrient topics and explore NPK topics including soil testing.

Nutrient Cycling & Maintaining Soil Fertility (http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/M1193.html)

Fertility Management in Organic Crop Systems (http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/soilwater/soilfert/fbd01s05.html)

Nutrient Considerations for Diversified Cropping Systems (http://agron.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/94/2/186)

Soil Test Interpretation Guide (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/ec/ec1478.pdf)

Interpreting Soil Test Results (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1310.pdf)

Interpretation of Soil Testing Results (http://ag.udel.edu/extension/agnr/pdf/soiltesting/CP12-95.pdf)

Results and Interpretation of Soil Tests (http://www.umass.edu/plsoils/soiltest/interp1.htm)

Soil Fertility Management (http://anrcatalog.ucdavis.edu/pdf/7249.pdf)

Mind Your P's and K's (http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/PSandKS/Index.htm)

You Can't Afford Not to Lime (http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/AffordNotToLime/index.html)

Understanding fertlizers (http://ipmguidelines.org/FieldCrops/content/CH02/default-11.asp)

Fertilizer Reckoning for the Mathematically Challenged (http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/articles.02/Fert_Math-0326.html)

Bagged Fertilizer Labeling Requirements (http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/arm/agriculture/pest-fert/fertilizers/lab_reg_fert.jsp)

Glossary of Terms (http://www.sustland.umn.edu/maint/maintgloss.htm)

dbltree

08-18-2008, 07:39 PM

1 bushel seems like more than 32#?

32#'s of oats per bushel, 56#'s of winter rye per bushel..that's a fact!

Ok...if there is something that will stir the pot or fan the flames...it's the controversy over which oats to plant???

We hear about winter oats, forage oats, feed oats...blah blah blah....what we really want to know is which ones are sure to bring in monster bucks...right???

Oats are something I have argued about for some time so I figure it's time to do some side by side testing and then ya'll can decide for yourselves.

What are "winter oats"??? Does that mean they will survive all winter like rye and wheat? Do oats with a buck on the bag mean that deer prefer them over other oats or over other types of food plots? Are oats better then rye? Better then wheat???

I'm going to attempt to give you more information that will help you understand and decide for yourself what might work best for you.

First I will flat out tell you this...there are no oats being marketed at this time that will survive once temps reach 20 degrees. If you live in the southern states then winter hardy oats have some merit but I have sat in my bow stand and shivered to 20 degree temps in November here in Iowa more then once.

So what is the point in planting that type of oats here in the Midwest? It is possible that they may survive an extra week or two but I have never seen any tests to prove that...only lots of advertising with no facts to back it up.

University tests show that even the most winter hardy oats always failed when temps dropped well below freezing.

There are winter hardy varieties that have been around since the 40's (lest you be misled into thinking someone just developed them for deer.....

Norline, Wintok, Harrison and new strains such as WN1 and WN10 do have winterhardy qualities and plant breeders at ARS Plant Science Research Laboratory have been working diligently to produce oats that can survive mild winters.

This would be huge for cattlemen and crop growers in some areas so if it were possible then those oats would be readily available already.

That being said...deer LOVE oats because they are tender and succulent when YOUNG!! I say that because some people are incredulous when their oats mature and deer won't touch them...

This means fall planting dates are important...plant to early and they will get too mature...plant to late and they will not achieve much growth before cold weather. We want the oats to be 6-10" tall during hunting season...not 2" and not 24"!!

Mid to late August here in southern Iowa works well to achieve those growth rates so northern areas might plant a week earlier and southern might be slightly later.

Plant oats at 2 1/2 to 3 bushel per acre or 32# x 3... ;)

Seed oats can typically be purchased locally at farm/ag seed supply sources. I bought 2 bushel bags today in Birmingham for $17 (64# bags) so I bought two bags (128#'s) for $34 and I bought one 50#'s bag of Buck Forage Oats for $34

Now...if money is not of the essence then you can largely ignore my "testing" and plant what ever you desire, if however like myself...every dollar counts then lets look at options.

I have planted rye and oats side by side and deer walk from one to the other and graze each to the ground. So why...why would I care if the oats freeze off at some point??

I mix them and get the best of both worlds...rye lasts all winter and I take advantage of the allelopathic effects of rye (it's ability to suppress and control certain types of weeds) as well as it's nitrogen scavenging, soil building attributes.

Deer LOVE rye...have I mentioned that? :D

So why mess with wheat??? It has NONE of the attributes of rye and I haven't found or seen one iota of evidence that deer even care...give them tender green feed and they'll be all over it.

Winter rye (fall rye grain)seed is $16 in Birmingham and mixing 40-50 #'s of each will cover all bases in a fall cereal grain plot.

I am going to plant (in several plots on two different farms) regular oats, BFO oats and oats and rye mixed. Some of these plots will be easily viewed while hunting so if deer prefer one over another or if one lasts for and extended period of time...I'll post it all here.

In the end..barring some surprise (I have been surprised before;) ) you will find that ALL of the oats regardless of price or origin will eventually be stone cold dead and only the rye will be left to attract deer (at 16 bucks an acre... ;))

You can feed fall grains with 46% urea at 100-200#'s per acre but I rarely do. It grows quite well without it and most farmers don't feed wheat until the following spring....so fertilizer is optional.

Tillage doesn't have to be as fine as for small seeds like clover or brassicas so I till the ground then broadcast seed and then roll to cover. If you have a drill then till and drill! If you don't have a 'packer...drag or harrow or lightly disc to cover seed. Drag a piece of chainlink fence or an old plank or drive over it wih an ATV.

Grain seed can be covered and inch or so deep unlike clover and brassica seed which should be lightly pressed into the upper soil surface.

Mix field or AWP peas with oats, add red or white clover after you roll the first time to establish a clover plot or simply for a green manure nitrogen producing crop to till in next fall.

The low seed costs, low inputs, make cereal grains one of the least expensive but most productive of all the possible foodplots! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Hardy Oats Stand the Cold (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050325184453.htm)

Fodder Oats (http://www.fao.org/docrep/008/y5765e/y5765e07.htm)

Small Grains (http://iah.aces.uiuc.edu/pdf/Agronomy_HB/04chapter.pdf)

Weed Control in Winter Rye (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/plantsci/smgrains/a199w.htm)

Weed Suppressing Cover Crops (http://www.auri.org/proproj/allelopa.html)

Rye as a Cover Crop (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/rye.html)

Remember oats grow quickly and they can go from

this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JuneOats.jpg

to this

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JulyOats.jpg

to this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AugustOats.jpg

in less then 90 days so DON'T plant to early! Even the second picture is pushing it and when they reach the stage in the last picture...they'll be moving on to greener pastures!

In the fall cold weather will prevent that because growth will slow and eventually stop but still...we don't want them to get to tall and rank by planting to early.

Next week or two in southern Iowa will work well up thru Labor Day /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

dbltree

08-18-2008, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Dbltree, I'll be planting my rye in a couple weeks, about an acre or so. This is only going to be rye, not a mix with oats. This particular acre is going to stay in cereal grains each fall so what is the best method to keep them going strong year after year? You mention mixing red or white clover in with the rye to help build nitrogen in the soils the following summer is that correct. But as spring warms things up the rye will quickly grown tall and get rank. Am I suppose to just clip the rye down thereby exposing the clovers....thus my summer feed will be the clovers alone? Then again in the fall, disc the field under and start from scratch. Is doing this year in and year out recommended or should I utilize that acre in different ways every year? Thanks
STEVE

If you look back thru this thread and also the clover thread, you'll see pics of rye and clover including pics of this combo when the rye matures the next summer.

The nice thing about rye is that it really is no big deal to the clover...it just falls over, breaks down and is harmless to the clover.

You can also clip it once if clipping is not a big problem but that's optional. You can just leave the whole thing and till it under this time of year and sow rye again.

Deer will feed on the clover as the rye starts to break down in mid summer and the clover begins to take off.

I really don't care to plant anything year after year after year...it's just not good for the soil or the crop. Disease and soil borne problems can set in. I prefer to divide the plot or rotate to something different. Rye/clover year one, brassicas year two, then back to rye/clover (for example)

One person at Welters said to use winter triticale

He was very right! Winter triticale is an excellent food source but I would have to have it shipped and that makes it expensive.

Winter triticale is a cross between winter wheat and rye so it has attributes of both and is a tender forage plant. It doesn't have all of the positive attributes of rye however so winter rye is a better option for most people to plant.

Next weekend thru Labor Day should be fine to start planting oats and rye for fall plots

nannyslayer

08-19-2008, 12:31 AM

Me and windwalker just planted about 5 acres of winter rye (rye grain) this past week. It is a little early to plant rye grain, it will be a little more mature than I care for by the time of the first frost, but we did mix in some forage peas and some winter peas, side by side to see which one is more "winter hearty".

We also put in some winter wheat to make sure there was still some "green" in the plots when it comes late December and January.

huntyak

08-19-2008, 01:12 PM

Is it possible if we have a very warm Sept and the rye gets too tall to cut it to prevent it from maturing somewhat like clover? Talked to Welters today while ordering and they suggested this weekend as the temps have been cool but said that if it gets "hot" they may get bigger than us "hunters" want and to plant clover as a backup. The only problem is I am switching that plot to corn next year and while it would be win win if I was keeping it in clover, may be a waste to plant this fall as I might not get much growth?

dbltree

08-19-2008, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Is it possible if we have a very warm Sept and the rye gets too tall to cut it to prevent it from maturing somewhat like clover? Talked to Welters today while ordering and they suggested this weekend as the temps have been cool but said that if it gets "hot" they may get bigger than us "hunters" want and to plant clover as a backup. The only problem is I am switching that plot to corn next year and while it would be win win if I was keeping it in clover, may be a waste to plant this fall as I might not get much growth?

This weekend is the earliest I would plant rye..I'm going to try to wait until late next week. Rye grows fast so it's hard to say but a few days one way or the other shouldn't be to bad.

You could try clipping it if need be but hopefully the deer will do it for you! Mine never got over a few inches high because of intensive grazing...surprising since I keep hearing that deer don't like rye that well.... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/Stillfeeding12-10rye.jpg

Limb Chicken

08-20-2008, 09:28 AM

Planted Rye/Clover and Brassicas last weekend but won't get rain until Thursday so, we shall see how it works. Basically tried to split the difference between the two planting dates to save a trip..:D.

dbltree

08-20-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Limb Chicken
Planted Rye/Clover and Brassicas last weekend but won't get rain until Thursday so, we shall see how it works. Basically tried to split the difference between the two planting dates to save a trip... :D

Limb is right...nuthin' going to come up until we get rain (at least if it's as dry as it is here in SE Iowa...) A little planning can work in your favor and many of us don't always have a choice...we just have to get it done when we can and hope for the best.

One thing I would like to add is that our avg. frost date is a full week later here in the south so that's something to consider as well. Limbs planting date can be earlier then mine.

Avg Iowa Frost dates (http://www.victoryseeds.com/frost/ia.html)

Frost isn't going to hurt the rye but colder fall temps will decelerate growth as days grow shorter and nights colder.

We can't predict the weather so we are always at the mercy of Mother Nature ;)

This thread not only covers cereal grains but also the use of "cover crops" and "green manure" crops to build our soil and lesson the need for commercial fertilizers.

I have already posted reams of information that shows how and why rye is the preferred crop to build soil versus wheat for instance.

Legumes such as clovers provide copious amounts of nitrogen which to purchase is the most expensive form of fertilizer.

Remember when I tilled under the Berseem clover to plant my brassicas? Some wondered aloud..."heyy...that looks like a MESS...is that ok??"

Good question of course so here are just a few pics of the soil surface then and now to show how it breaks down quickly and growing plants love that environment!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OrganicMatter-1.jpg

Now the brassicas are taking advantage of the moisture the organic matter is holding.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicainmulch.jpg

The slowly decomposing clover will begin to release nitrogen perhaps all the way into next year and the brassicas will be only to happy to take advantage of that

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicasintilledunderclover.jpg

While I mention often that brassicas are better off planted alone, fall plantings (depending on the planting date) can include plow down clover. The brassicas will grow quickly while the clover is still small but next spring the clover can flourish and be a summer crop to plow down in late summer again.

Another option is to frost seed clover into the bare brassica plots in late winter...whichever you choose...keep your soil working for you...it's like money in the bank!! :)

dbltree

08-21-2008, 04:12 PM

We talk about correct planting dates for fall grains which is something that varies of course, depending on where we live and our zone.

Oats stay tender a little longer then rye and wheat so we can get away with a little earlier planting. I've also had people ask if tilling down spring oats (or any grains) will bury seed to deep or damage them.

Here's the answer to that question... :)

I tilled the daylights out of these spring oats that had matured in order to sow brassicas August 1st

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oatstotill.jpg

they re-sprouted and despite dry weather are already growing well.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/AugustOats-1.jpg

Discing or tilling grains that have matured will just start the process all over again! Plowing is the only method that would bury seed to deep. If you plant rye and clover this fall to till under next summer, discing or tilling it under will re-seed the rye along with whatever you choose to plant next. Free seed so to speak.

If you choose not to till it under because it is in clover for instance, the rye will likely not re-seed and the clover will be to dense and thick to allow the rye seed to compete even if it does germinate.

By posting seeding dates from around the state this summer we'll have a better idea next year what is a good time frame to sow our grains.

These pics are oats and clover that huntyak planted several weeks ago.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnRC.jpg

You can see, like mine it's well on it's way...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsandRedClover.jpg

and deer are feeding on it as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oats-1.jpg

but will it be to mature and rank by mid October?

That remains to be seen and I planted some this week and my last batch along with rye will go in next week.

We'll just keep track this fall and hopefully everyone will report back. If our fall is early and cool then things won't mature as quickly but if it stays warm...stuff is going to grow!

Post your fall grain progress pics here and let us know how they are doing :)

dbltree

08-21-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Skully
Great info Paul! ] I noticed that Welters offers several types of winter wheat. Soft and hard red varieties. Which is best in your opinion? Sorry if this has been asked before. There wasn't much difference in price so I just want to make sure I get the best seed for my food plot application.

I always use winter rye rather then wheat because it has so many more soil building attributes then wheat, so I'm not sure I can answer that question.

I really doubt that it makes a difference to the deer but it's a good question!

Here are some links on grazing wheat:

GRAZING WHEAT PASTURE (http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/pr_forage/pubs/97notebook/fora23.pdf)

In this wheat grazing trial, hard WW was used but most likely because of the market for the grain rather then grazing differences.

Wheat Variety Grazing Trial (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/research/1995RR/1995RR26.PDF)

I'm guessing hard wheat is better suited to our area but maybe someone (even Welters) could expand on that for us...

dbltree

08-22-2008, 03:41 PM

We got anywhere between 1/2" to 3/4" of rain thru out this area of SE Iowa so I decided to take advantage of the moisture and disc down some spring oats and peas and the soybeans that the deer had murdered...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/Workingground.jpg

Now I know that some of you that struggle to scratch up a little dirt with an ATV probably hate me when I post pics like this but a big ole disc and tractor come in handy for workin' down a mess a standing crops

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/Disc.jpg

I am fortunate to either own or have access to some decent equipment and that's just another reason I thank God every day for blessings that I'm not sure I deserve....

did I mention the air conditioned cab?? ;)

That old disc makes short work of chopping/stirring/plowing down the mix of soybeans, peas, oats and assorted weeds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TilledBeans.jpg

all of which makes for great green manure soil building material

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OrganicMatter-2.jpg

For now the field is just prepped and I'll use my tiller to finish "stirring" it up next week and plant it to rye, oats and plow-down clover.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Readyforrye.jpg

Just a few reminders for those that will be buying seed etc. to plant over Labor Day weekend.

Rye, oats and wheat planted for grazing can be planted heavier then for grain. 100-120#'s of oats, 80-120#'s of rye, wheat or triticale won't be a bit to much.

It will never have time to be too competitive and we don't have to worry about lodging and other prohibitive factors next spring that cause problems when grown for grain.

Cereal grains are "grasses"...just like the grass in your lawn or corn and sorghum, they LOVE nitrogen! Unlike corn however they will grow and do fairly well without any additional fertilizer.

If however you want the greenest "baddest" cereal grains around, adding 50-80 or more pounds of actual nitrogen at seeding will make your grains lush and green. I've never tasted them...but I suspect that well fed tender young grains will be sweeter and tastier then those on a "diet"...

The last thing I need is to draw even one extra deer or encourage them in the slightest way, so personally I use organic methods. Plowing down legumes such as my soys and peas will add at least a minimal amount of N and future plow-downs of red or white clover will provide way more nitrogen then my grains can use.

On poor soils I suggest a soil sample that will allow you to build up levels of P&K to a point where you can just maintain fertility levels by plowing down future crops of clover and rye for instance.

I will stress once again that winter rye is an excellent nitrogen scavenger, and it's roots are capable of pulling nutrients from deep in the soil and when tilled back in, make those nutrients available to the next crop.

Rye and clover then become and unbeatable combination providing an all year long high quality food source for your deer as well as a self sustaining food plot that requires little if any future inputs.

Wheat does not share these attributes nor is it as compatible to leave standing with clover thru next summer.

I'll be planting separate plot of oats next week as well along with exclusion cages to compare oats and BFO oats along with rye and oats...stay tuned... ;)

dbltree

08-23-2008, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted By: nontypcl1
I plan on planting 3 acres of rye grain with some red clover and AWP's next week but I'm not sure if the peas will get enough grow time before frost. Should I maybe plant the peas tomorrow and broadcast the rye and clover over top around the sept 1 or just plant it all on the 1st?

I think at this point I would just go ahead and plant it all, looking at rain possibles late in the week so I would take advantage of the upcoming moisture.

It's a fine line sometimes getting everything to fit in at the right times and especially with work schedules it can be difficult.

Please let us know how yours does this fall!

Hey Paul,
You might need a new tire on that disc before you head out on the road with it.

If I put a tire on it then my farmer friend might want it back...as it is I've kind of "inherited" it... ;)

dbltree

08-25-2008, 02:16 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I planted Rye and clover yesterday but see no rain forecasted for the next 10 days. The rain we had the past few days made the soil great but now I am not sure if ANYTHING will grow without any rain. How drought resistant is rye and although it can be planted 1.5" inches deep, is shallower just as effective? </div></div>

Rye is VERY drought resistant, so no worries about that. If there is soil moisture to get it germinated it will take off.

Most grains should be planted 1-2" deep which will put the seed down where there is moisture and allow the roots to be firmly established in that moisture area.

The fact that rye can also be broadcast on bare ground just shows how versatile it is! I have seen rye planted on the driest sandiest soils and the heavest clay soils and never seen it fail.

If rye fails...it's BAD and there is little you could have done.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wednesday Night: A 20 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 62.

Thursday: A 30 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 83.

Thursday Night: A chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 61.
</div></div>

Chances aren't high but...have faith! We also have the benefit of cool nights and reasonable day time temps, so relax...be happy!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

dbltree

08-25-2008, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: steveolson
This is an off the wall question but does anyone know the regulations regarding food plots when ground is going into CRP?
The owner of the farm I lease is putting the tillable ground into the CRP program next spring but my lease guarantees me at least 4 acres set aside for food plots. Can I still plant whatever I want or is the government going to tell me which crops are acceptable? Anyone?? STEVE

Yes...the government tells you what you can plant...kinda... ;)

Don't ask...don't tell.... having said that they basically want to make sure that 4 acres is 1) in some kind of cover that will prevent erosion (even corn...just don't leave it unplanted)
2) they want you to leave it alone during the nesting season
3) leave it standing

Almost anything from clover to corn is acceptable but I've never had anyone check or ask about what if anything I have planted.

They do have rules...don't blatantly abuse those rules and you'll be fine... :)

dbltree

08-27-2008, 09:14 PM

Yesterday and today I completed fall plantings of oats and rye.

Earlier in this thread we talked about oats, winter-hardy oats, forage oats and how all of that compares with winter rye grain.

In this area of the Midwest ALL oats are going to freeze out so we question why we want to pay $75 an acre to plant BFO oats or $34 an acre to plant conventional oats and fall/winter field rye??

BFO states on their bag that clover is no good, brassicas are no good, mixed seeds are no good...well, you get the idea.

BFO I'm quite sure I fine quality oats and if money is not of the essence then you'll I'm sure be satisfied with them at least until they freeze out.

I have posted over a number of years many many pics of my rye plots quite full of deer from October to March so it doesn't set right with me when someone says...NOPE...rye is no good, wheat is no good, blah blah blah

So here's the deal...I have planted side by side plots on two different farms in different counties in entirely different situations.

We're going to find out the pros and cons of oats vs rye, BFO vs Jerry oats, both kinds of oats mixed with rye. Grain planted without fertilizer and with heavy amounts of fertilizer.

Both places are hidden heavily traveled by deer and one set of plots will have cams "watching" them as well as visible from my blinds.

Whatever happens, including freeze dates...I'll let you know. My feeling is this...for the most economical but effective planting, use fall/winter rye grain mixed with common oats and who cares when it freezes....

I disced this field of rr soybeans the other day (this field had no oats left in it) and the rest of my spring peas and oats.

Discing cut thru the heavy vegetation, loosened the soil and buried the previous crops leaving it looking like this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Disced.jpg

Then I tilled it once to smooth it out and make a nice planting surface...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DiscedTilled.jpg

Leaving it looking like this...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tilled.jpg

Underneath is some beautiful organic matter which includes legumes like soybeans and field peas...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TilledBeans-1.jpg

In this field I planted oats at roughly 120#'s per acre, two separate plots of BFO oats, two separate plots of Jerry oats (nothing special about Jerry...just common oats)

One plot each is nothing but pure oats of each variety the other two I over seeded with field rye at roughly another 60-80#'s per care.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/CerealGrains.jpg

Fall Rye Grain Seed (NOT ryegrass!!)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallRyeGrain.jpg

I then cultipacked it to cover the seed...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cultipacked-2.jpg

Then I seeded 1/3 of the plot to Alice White Clover, 1/3 to Red Clover and let 1/3 to frost seed this winter to compare growth and results next summer.

I marked the various plots

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Marked.jpg

and left it looking like this... August 26th 2008

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/8-26-08Planted.jpg

None of that plot had any commercial fertilizer applied so I moved closer to home and repeated the process only I planted 4 separate plots in the same way (BFO, alone, Jerry alone, Rye alone and combination of rye and oats)

Here however I applied plenty of fertilizer! Wal-Mart had 15# bags of 29-3-4 for 5 bucks a bag so I snagged an armload

No weed killer (2-4D) so it's safe to apply even with brassicas and clover seed (thankfully we have Ironwood as our "herbicide tester"...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/LawnFertlizer.jpg

These plots are smaller garden sized plots but it still took me awhile to spread the high nitrogen and triple 13 fertilizer by hand...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Fertilizer.jpg

I put it on heavy too! :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Spreadfertilizer.jpg

Then spread the oats and rye...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SeededOats.jpg

These plots I tilled lightly to cover the oats seed, packed via the tractor tires, seeded with both white and red clovers (for plow down) and repacked.

I overseeded some soybeans with the field rye, I added some left over brassica seed to some areas of both plots (on each farm) just to compare late seeding performance.

I already know what is going to happen but...if anyone believes that deer are going to eat the high priced oats and snub their noses at the common oats and or the rye....please feel free to post your thoughts...

Ohhh...I almost forgot, I have some exclusion cages to put up also and the cams won't lie and most of you know me well enough that I won't either.

By the end of season we'll be able to sort thru the hype and see how it all works out...stay tuned!

Iowabowtech

08-27-2008, 10:01 PM

Can't wait to see the results of this one...you sir are a scientist at heart. BTW, I planted my little 1/4 acre (if that) woodland plot with oats/rye/clover on 8/20. I used PlotSpike forage oats so it should be interesting. Didn't take any pics of the bare site but I'll grab the cam shortly to check progress. I hope you can't use too much urea because it looked like a snowstorm hit by the time I was done. :D I was fortunate to get two nice gentle rains on it but may be a little early on the oats. With the deer populations I have though, it may NEVER grow to any substantial height anyway!

dbltree

09-03-2008, 01:40 AM

With the deer populations I have though, it may NEVER grow to any substantial height anyway!

That is a big factor...if deer use it heavily then planting a week or two early may not be a problem.

Let us know how yours works out ;)

Huntyak sent some pics of his field rye that quickly popped up despite very dry conditions

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/MoreRye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GerminatingRye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Fallplot.jpg

This one is of some rye the spilled on the ground and with little moisture still germinated.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryeontop.jpg

Just an example of how broadcasting rye into standing crops or even into a small "no-till" plot where the sod was killed with roundup.

I bought my field rye locally and I noticed the bags were covered with cobwebs and dust when we loaded them. Didn't think much of it until I planted it and looked at seed tag which showed it was tested in July 2006!

Not a problem if it germinates but...not really fair to pay for new seed and then get old seed that has been setting around for several years.

I decided to do a ragdoll germination test before I said anything .

This link explains how to do your own tests to check germination especially if you have older seed you have saved and wonder if it is viable.

Ragdoll test (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AG/AG18200.pdf)

That link also lists approximate dates to expect seeds to germinate. Most grains are listed at 7 days.

It's best to used brown paper toweling but lacking that I used some "quicker picker upper";) ]

I used several layers, wet it, wrung it out and scattered some rye and oats seed in it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ragdoll1.jpg

I rolled it up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ragdoll2.jpg

and stuck in a small glass in a warm window

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ragdoll3.jpg

I add a dab of water every day or so to keep it from drying out.

The oats germinated in 3 days and a few rye seeds had germinated but I'll give a week and see how many germinate...hopefully 80% or so then....I may have go visit my friend at the feed store.... ;)

dbltree

09-04-2008, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Your quite the testing machine what does your wife think of all your experiments????

STEVE

She's used to it by now...however she did request that I draw a face on the "ragdoll" next time... ;)

So far I'm not real happy with my rye germination...maybe 30% so far...

I hope the seed I planted does better and next time I'll be checking the label to see how old the seed is. Larger places like Welters this is rarely a problem but small feed/seed stores sometimes have seed set around year to year....

dbltree

09-04-2008, 04:31 PM

It's not quite a week since I started the rag-doll test of my rye seed but it sure not looking to good...

The long sprouts you see are a few oats...all of which sprouted within days because it was fresh seed. The rye seed was almost 3 years old....

You can see a few sprouting in the lower part of the pic...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ragdoll4.jpg

It was hard not to get a "glare" but you can see that very few seeds have germinated...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ragdoll5.jpg

A lesson learned...to check to test date of seed we purchase especially from smaller local suppliers....

dbltree

09-05-2008, 06:18 PM

Any experience planting fall rye into a fairly well established clover plot?

No...and I'm curious why you would want to?

if you try it however let us know how it works out! :)

Couple of questions regarding cereal grains that have been asked recently...

Is field rye toxic to livestock?

To my knowledge...no...we used to pasture cattle every fall,winter and spring on field rye and never had any issues and I'm not aware of any serious toxicity issues with field rye.

Rye-grassis another story and perennial ryegrass staggers and annual ryegrass toxicity are just a couple problems that might lead one to confuse with field rye grain

Perennial Ryegrass Staggers (http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/RPIO-4ZU79U?open#AnnualRyegrassToxici)

There are many grazing toxicity issues with fescue, grass tetany and others that are very common and difficult for cattlemen to avoid so almost anything is possible.

Cattle are a huge part of Iowa's ag industry and as hunters and landowners we often have a close relationship with one or more farmers who have livestock and their concerns are sometimes ours as well. It pays to know what your talking about and that what you plant is not harmful should livestock end up grazing it later in the season.

Quote:
Cultivated rye (Secale cereale)… co-evolved with wheat and barley (this is what we want to plant each fall)

The ryegrasses listed below I would suggest NOT planting, they have nothing to do with cereal rye grain (winter rye, fall rye grain)

Annual Ryegrass (Lolium rigidum)

Annual Ryegrass (Lolium multiflorum Lam. or Lolium perenne L. ssp. multiflorum Lam.)

Perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.).

Planting depths are another question often asked about cereal grains but quite honestly they have a wide window of planting depths that make it hard to do it wrong... ;)

Using a drill we would plant at roughly 1 - 1 1/2" deep and the drill would use a disc or coulter to cover the seed evenly.

http://www.lakecountyshow.org/grain/grain_drill.jpg

http://www.goldenpondfarm.com/farm_pictures/p4267641.jpg

Broadcasting seed however means we have to cover it some other way.

Making soil contact is usually enough especially with plenty of moisture but covering the seed an inch or so means the seeds root will be in the moisture zone should it be dry (as it was the past few weeks)

In very dry weather seeds may have the energy to sprout but not enough left to push tiny roots to the moisture area whereas deeper planted seed can easily push thru several inches of soil with roots firmly established where the water is.

In short...cereal grains can be planting anywhere from a 1/2" to 3 1/2" deep allowing us to use various means of covering the seed. Lightly discing, harrowing, dragging, tilling or even just cultipacking will do the trick.

Often we add clover seed which should not be covered deeply (1/4" is perfect) so this is why we say...

Till, broadcast larger seed and fertilizer, cover (roll or lightly till and roll) broadcast small seeds like clover or alfalfa and roll to cover again.

This link shows that the only thing that really changes by shallow or deep planting depths of grains is the time to emerge Drilling depths (http://www.ca.uky.edu/ukrec/RR-00-01/00-01pg23.pdf)

dbltree

09-05-2008, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: mattski
It is a small plot that I'm trying to do all I can to keep deer using well into bow season. In year's past the clover has died off too early and I'm looking to add some late season food to it. I've got half in brassicas and half in clover right now.

Ok...good reason to add rye for a late winter draw. It's also the reason I use 3 plots instead of one or two.

You are on the right track but I think you'll have better results having one plot soley into rye and oats perhaps.

Heck..give it a try and see what happens and be sure to let us know if it works for you. I suspect that the clover would be to competitive early on but I may be wrong... ;)

Limb Chicken

09-08-2008, 04:49 PM

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3006/Rye2.jpg

Planted the 26th of August. Rye with clover. Hand seeded and harrowed in. Looks ok a few spots but the rain helped a ton.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/3006/medium/Rye1.jpg

Welters winter rye and HS premium clover mix.

dbltree

09-08-2008, 06:02 PM

Looking good Limb! I know you planted that a little on the early side so let us know what it looks like in October?

If it should happen to get "too mature" you could always clip it and slow it down a bit.

Weather is cooling off dramtically so that may slow down growth depending if we get lots of cloudy cool weather versus warm sunny days.

Thanks for sharing the pics! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

BOWSTRING

09-08-2008, 07:55 PM

I broadcasted my rye on August 31. It sat dry for 2 days befpre Gustav gave us rain. I didn't get to cover it up because my hillbilly disc broke. (log mith metal straps) I did get the ground roughed up a little then drove over it to pack it with the ATV. As of Sept. 7th it dosen't seem to be coming up very well if any. The other plots that I was able to drag after puttiing the seed out came up better than the ones I didn't.
Might have to do with the cool weather we've been having but that would have to be answered by someone with more knowledge about it than me. I know it's not growing well though. I know it not from lack of seed either. Welter's sent me 56 lbs and I put it all on the ground in maybe a half acre area.
My rape and turnips I planted a week before are doing great. (they got covered) They started coming up in about 4 days and are maybe 3 inches already. THANKS DBLTREE AND HUNTYAK for your input on this plot very much apperciated.

huntyak

09-08-2008, 08:14 PM

I broadcast rye and last year before a rain into a crop and it didn't come up for about 14 days. we ae getting TONS of rain but the lack od seed soil may delay it a bit but DBLTREE will have to answer that one. I saw my rye planted August 24th come up great in 10 days but I packed it. The Rye I put out in my beans hasn't yet but it will I think in another few days. A little warmth wouldn't hurt! It'll grow!

dbltree

09-08-2008, 08:34 PM

It takes a minimum of 7 days for rye seed to germinate so give it some time yet. Might be longer where it wasn't covered well. We have plenty of moisture now so some sunny days would be welcome again. Rye will germinate and grow way up into November in southern Iowa so no worries about the weather being "too cool".

See what it looks like this next weekend...

risto2351

09-09-2008, 01:22 PM

I planted this two weeks in three of my plots.

It is a combination of Rye, Oats, Peas and Clover.

I bought everything except the clover from Nanny.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05902.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05922.jpg

The peas have yet to germinate think they ever will??
You can see the baby clover next to them in the picture.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05905.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05923.jpg

This plot was my very first one about four years ago before I met Dbltree. Could never get anything to grow. I figured what the hey Dbltree said Rye could grow anywhere.
Looks like at least the rye will make it.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05927.jpg

Had to throw this one in. While checking my cams Jr. climbed on
my mineral lick. Had to chuckle a bit. :D

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC05929.jpg

Limb Chicken

09-09-2008, 03:04 PM

Risto pics that along the crack lines and below in the "clover" pics (pics 3 and 4) you will see little green plants that have two leaves and are oval shaped.

Clover!:)

Which, if in your yard, is a weed... :D

Here is a picture of Paul's red clover seedlings...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RedCloverseedlings.jpg

dbltree

09-09-2008, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Dbltree, you keep talking about crop rotation so here is a question for you. I'm not a big fan of brassicas so wheat else could I plant next fall in the same field I planted my rye and peas on this year? I'm usually tagged out long before the brassicas get hit. :}

STEVE

You can get away with a rye/clover combo in itself...in other words plant rye and red or white clover each fall and just till it all down the next summer and replant.

other possibles might be including oats and peas.

How big is/are your plot/plots? Too small for soybeans??

Thanks for posting the clover seedlings Limb! :)

dbltree

09-10-2008, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Dbltree, I've got three plots in total. First is 1/4 acre that is in oats. Second plot is 1.1 acre and is in rye & peas. Last plot is 2 acres and is a dedicated clover plot (Allyce/ladino).
Don't get me wrong I know they will hit the brassicas so for feeding the deer that's fine but I want a good hunting plot come November as part of my rotation. Thanks STEVE

That's a great combination Steve! My thoughts on brassicas are this...true, they may turn up their noses at them and not touch them.

If however they learn to eat them, they make a fantastic November thru January draw! That's the whole idea behind brassicas...they stay green and sweet well into cold weather. Snow and bitter cold will find deer foraging on brassicas and when everything else is gone they will dig up the turnips.

I know they will hit the brassicas so for feeding the deer that's fine but I want a good hunting plot come November as part of my rotation

If they'll feed on them...isn't that the whole idea?? Deer come to feed...we shoot deer... :)

If I had your plot setup...eventually I would try planting a small area of the clover plot (for example) to brassicas and test them. Plant a small plot each year (that has been in clover) and let deer get used to them, monitor usage with exclusion cages, trail cams and or hunting near by.

Brassicas are a great crop to use up nitrogen left from clover or peas and can pull nutrients up from the subsoil...lots of great qualities that make them worth including in your rotation.

Just go small...then what do you have to lose...and you may be pleasantly surprised :)

Limb Chicken

09-10-2008, 07:58 PM

Should be around 7 days Dean.

dbltree

09-10-2008, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Limb Chicken
Should be around 7 days Dean.

Here's a chart to make it a little easier... :)

Common Name
Approximate Germination Time (days)

Alfalfa 7

Alyceclover 21

Austrian Winter Pea 8

Clovers 7-10

Corn 7

Cowpea 8

Indiangrass 21

Millet 7

Small grains (Barley, Oats and Wheat) 7

Sorghum 10

Soybean 7

Sudangrass 7

Switchgrass 21

Vetch, hairy 10

*Adapted from Ball, Donald M., Carl S. Hoveland and Garry D. Lacefield, eds. Southern Forages, 3rd ed. Atlanta: Potash & Phosphate Institute, 2002.

dbltree

09-16-2008, 02:38 PM

My oats have been in for two weeks now and look great...

In this pic I have planted 2 portions each of BFO and Jerry oats...can't tell which is which at this point.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/9-15Oats.jpg

Guess time will tell if one out performs the other in some way. I have trail cams set up over these now also.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsmidSept.jpg

The rye seed that I had concerns about was completely non viable seed...a total waste! The green growth is oats and the bare spots were field rye.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Norye.jpg

I paid a visit to the supplier who sold it to me and he agreed to replace it with fresh seed...so I'll leave it at that.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Noryegrowing.jpg

The new seed won't be here until later this week but we still have plenty of time to plant rye, oats and wheat. You can see what the oats looked like in two weeks...nice and tender and very lush.

I want the rye for a late season draw so I hope to get it sown perhaps this weekend. Since I have already seeded clover in those areas I'll most likely broadcast it on the bare soil and hope for another good rain to germinate it.

If you buy seed from a major dealer like Welters or nannyslayer, you know your getting fresh seed. At small town dealers however it pays to check the test date as your throwing it in the back of the truck.... ;)

dbltree

09-22-2008, 03:05 AM

and the plot thickens in the "oat tests"

sorry I couldn't resist.... ;)

When we don't plant seeds/crops/varieties side by side it is really difficult to say pro or con and in the case for or against expensive oats such as BFO or ordinary spring oats I wondered after planting them...

What if the BFO are just outstanding? What if they are just sooo lush and green and deer flock to them and ignore the others? After all if you read the back of the bag they pretty much tell you as much (like most all brand name varieties)

At any rate I have to admit being very curious and I felt sure that the expensive BFO would be at least as good or appear slightly better then the Jerry oats.......boy was I in for a surprise!

This view shows a field with 4 strips of oats...BFO, Jerry, BFO and Jerry. Note that the Jerry is very very green and lush while the BFO is..well...not.....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/4oatsstrips.jpg

This is the opposite end of the field showing forage oats and field peas on the far left, BFO then the dark green Jerry oats in the center.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Jerryincenter.jpg

Another view showing Jerry in the middle and very far left

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatPlots2.jpg

Now, I'm not advocating Jerry oats, I would rather have a forage oat such as the ones I got from nannyslayer last spring or Frank Forage oats from Welters but no matter...they are ALL available at a very reasonable price ranging from 8 to 12 bucks for 50#'s versus $35 for the BFO.I had some left over buckwheat so I threw that in one area just to see what it did...growing at least...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FallBuckweat.jpg

Clover alfalfa, Forage oats and peas and oat test plots just so you can see a variety of feed including three different varieties of oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cloveroatspeasoats.jpg

Grazed Jerry oats

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/GrazedJerryOats9-21.jpg

Heavy grazing in the common feed oats (Jerry in this case) shows that even with expensive oats and other types of feed right beside them...they can't resist tasty succulent tender oats...of any kind!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/HeavyGrazing-1.jpg

I set up exclusion cages 9-21 to see if we can tell anything from that in a month.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Exclusioncages.jpg

BFO exclusion cage

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFO.jpg

Jerry exclusion cage

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Jerry.jpg

I top dressed with fertilizer 9-21 in strips cross ways with a high N fertilizer as it was thundering and spitting rain but it never did rain so it may be for naught. The oats look great without fertilizer but just curious and as always..."testing"

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Fertlizeronoats9-21.jpg

This is a completely different plot...Jerry on the left, BFO on Right and both heavily fertilized and the fertilizer tilled in.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryleftBFOR.jpg

Jerry left, BFO Right...you decide which one looks more attractive... ;)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerrylBFOr.jpg

What about time of planting?

These pics show oats planted at different times just to give you an idea when to plant to have tender oats during hunting season. These oats were not "planted" but tilled under spring oats that re-sprouted when I planted brassicas August 1st

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oatsinbrassicapatch.jpg

I stuck my bag seeder in them to give a better idea

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oats8weeks.jpg

These are oats planted in mid August (again largely tilled under forage oats from this spring) to plant my field peas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oatpeamixheight.jpg

So we have oats planted anywhere that are now 4, 6 and 8 weeks old and all are being grazed heavily. The older oats may become a little rank by mid October so we will keep an eye on those. The skies were threatening and promising some rain so I decided to top dress some fertilizer on parts of the oat plots and broadcast my fresh rye seed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Stormyskies.jpg

The rye seed I had planting was 3 years old completely worthless and not a single seed germinated. My seed dealer replaced it with fresh rye seed harvested this summer so I broadcasted it back over the areas I originally seeded.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Newrye9-21.jpg

Plenty of soil moisture but I nice drencher would be helpful...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/SoilMoisture.jpg

Soil seed contact is easy at this point but we are looking at a stretch of pretty dry weather. As I was seeding one plot....it rained on the other (before I seeded it of course... )but hopefully it will eventually germinate and get going.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Broadcastrye.jpg

Plenty of time for planting grains if you have some drowned out areas or just have not got around to it. Broadcast some rye into standing corn or soybeans that are staring to drop leaves, inexpensive way to add some green feed...

As for the oats, at this point I am actually disappointed with the BFO oats. Deer are mowing the Jerry oats and I cannot blame them since they are so lush and bright green. The whole thing with BFO is that they supposedly will last longer into cold weather but adding winter rye to the mix insures that we will have green feed all winter long for a very reasonable costs per acre.

I will keep sharing pics and results as fall and winter progresses... :)

dbltree

09-26-2008, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: DEERBOY
a quick question, I planted rye memorial day week end it is about 3inches I really haven't seen any grazing yet will it be soon or will they kind of wait til the corn and beans are gone?

They may wait until crops are gone but they start on mine the minute it comes up. Two different farms, both with tons of other feed but they never ever turn down cereal grains.

These pics are only a few days ago and right next to soybeans, alfalfa and brassicas....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/9-20Grazing.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/SeptGraze2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Trail%20Cam/SeptGraze7.jpg

They should be hitting yours shortly! :)

Skully

09-29-2008, 04:03 AM

Lots of deer and turkeys hitting my rye/wheat plot now. Mine is three to four inches tall. I have concluded that in my area, only does, fawns and small bucks enjoy the taste of rye and wheat. :( :D

dbltree

09-29-2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:
only does

but...in November, where there are does, there will be mature bucks... ;)

I also want to remind everyone that there is a fantastic acorn "feast" going on right now and that's hard to compete with.

This is a pic from under an oak in my yard this past weekend....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Acorns.jpg

The rye seed I broadcasted on top has started to germinate...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Germinatedryeseed.jpg

Assuming one has fresh viable seed, broadcasting field rye into standing soybeans, corn or even ground that has been to wet to work is a great way to add green feed to your fallplots.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryeseed9-26.jpg

This seed is on bare ground and while we have had some rains it has been pretty warm and dry up until now so broadcasting into a bean field just a head of leaf drop actually helps conserve some moisture and lets the seed get germinated and off to the races by the time leaves fully drop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryegermination.jpg

Winter rye (fall rye grain) is hard to beat and it will also be there this winter when those tired old bucks will be desperate to fill their stomachs...so don't give up hope Skully.... :)

timekiller

10-01-2008, 07:23 AM

Thought I'd throw a couple pics on here of my rye/oat plots. They were planted Sept. 12th which during the 1st day of a 3 day rain that we got. The first pic has always been kind of an opening in the timber, but the timber got logged last year, and they really opened this spot up. I broke the ground up with a ATV chisel plow that I need to post some pics of because that thing worked unbelievably well. I just need to get the brand of it again. I then just broadcast the rye and oats and left the rain to work it in as it was starting to get pretty sticky. It worked because everything that's green in the pics is either rye or oats.(mostly rye) It's about 3/4 to an acre in size and runs through the trees behind that little brush pile about 40 yards.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/535/medium/rye_2.jpg

The second pic is a smaller plot about 20 yards away from the bigger one that was where the logs were stacked up until they got them out of there. The grass was alot taller when it was mowed so it didn't get worked up as well. It is coming up pretty good though.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/535/medium/rye_1.jpg

I thought I'd put them in this thread to show that this stuff will grow in the woods too. You can't get any more in the middle of the timber than where these are planted.

dbltree

10-01-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:
I then just broadcast the rye and oats and left the rain to work it in as it was starting to get pretty sticky. It worked because everything that's green in the pics is either rye or oats.

Excellent! [:)

Cereal grains are as easy as pie and so inexpensive to plant.

Those "woodland" spots should be killer areas now...thanks for sharing the pics and info. ;)

dbltree

10-02-2008, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Dbltree, I was all worried that my deer were not hitting my rye plot but that has changed, they are ON IT NOW good. STEVE

Awesome! :)

While were watching our cereal grains grow I thought I would cover a little more on soil building to give you some ideas for next year.

Forage Radish is something I have mentioned in the brassica thread and I planted some with my rape and turnips this year.

It doesn't look a whole lot different and deer and livestock forage on the leaves just like other brassicas, the difference is in the extremely long root.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicas/Forage%20Radish/IMG_0123.jpg

Many of us have very hard pan clay soils that we are trying to improve by various soil building methods and Forage Radishes are a fantastic, simple and economical way of loosening soil, bringing up nutrients from the sub soil and feeding deer at the same time.
http://www.hort.cornell.edu/reducedtillage/Forage%20Radishes/forage%20radish%20cover%20crop.JPG

The tops don't look much different then other brassicas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Brassicas/Forage%20Radish/IMG_0122.jpg
http://www.hort.cornell.edu/reducedtillage/Forage%20Radishes/forage%20radish%20early%20fall.JPG

The following spring however the rotted tap roots will leave deep holes that will have shattered the hard pan.

Imagine hard soils like a plate...what happens when we pour water on a plate? Pour anything on a hard surface and it's going to run off. Imagine roots trying to penetrate that hard plate, imagine the stress and energy on a plant as it's roots struggle for everything it needs, unable to go vertically where the "gold mine" lays.

Now...imagine a soft fluffy sponge...water and nutrients absorb instantly rather then running off. Tap roots of whatever we plant on loosened soils can penetrate deep into subsoil for moisture and nutrients previously "locked" beneath the hardpan or "plate" so to speak.

This is another pic of just how deep the radish root can go and because it can, it is able to bring up P&K and then leave it at topsoil level.

http://www.tillageradish.com/images/radish_root.jpg

This pic compares the roots of field rye on the left, struggling to travel horizontally against the "plate" while the radish plunges straight thru the plate like a missile headed for Saddam's bunker! :D

http://www.tillageradish.com/images/compaction_benefits.jpg

Like field rye, radishes suppress weeds both while growing and the following year. Starting to get the picture here? :D

Using the right combination of crops like rye, buckwheat and radishes we can loosen soil, build the organic matter, "haul" up hidden nutrients, soak up nitrogen..and that's just the beginning!

Outstanding winter annual weed control: Radishes suppress most winter annuals. Hen-bit and chickweed are no match for fast growing tillage radishes.

http://www.tillageradish.com/images/weed_control.jpg

Seed isn't expensive and is planted just exactly like other summer planted brassicas.

Quote:
Seeding rate: 8-10 lbs per acre when planted alone. Plant 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep. If dry, plant 1 inch deep.

Seed size is slightly larger than alfalfa. The alfalfa setting will be close to desired tillage radish seeding rate.

Radishes are a quick covering crop that is usually up in 4 days

Some planting tips

Tillage radishes are extremely competitive and will outgrow most other cover crops seeded as a companion cover crop. However, seeding rates can be adjusted in order that the tillage radishes don’t out compete the other species.

Successful establishment of mixtures has been obtained by planting alternating rows with a drill that has both a legume box and grain box. We have also found the variety “Jerry” oats to do well when mixed with Tillage radishes.

Tillage radishes germinate very easily- similar to rye. They can be broadcasted on the surface and will grow if there are sufficient seeds contacting the soil and moisture is adequate. This is a cheaper method of establishment but comes with the risk of poor or uneven germination. However successful broadcast establishment has been achieved by some farmers.

Aerial seeding into soybeans before leaf drop and into standing corn is possible but it has been observed that tillage radishes do not perform as well compared to drilling. The roots just don’t seem to be as aggressive even after the crop is harvested and they can capture full sunlight. Another risk with soybeans, is if the weather doesn’t cooperate with harvest, the radishes could grow up through the canopy and cause problems with green radish leaves entering the combine

There are great pics of radishes broadcast into soybeans at leaf yellowing in this link:
Growing Tillage Radishes (http://www.tillageradish.com/growing.htm)

Growing Tips

Fertility: Tillage radishes will take up excess nitrogen after a crop. However, in order to fully express their rooting action, they need at least 60 lbs of N– accumulated either as residual or applied. In most instances, with high fertility fields, there is sufficient N left over from the previous crop. However, in low fertility fields, adding N is necessary to allow the radishes to achieve maximum rooting. Upon decomposition in the spring, N will then be released in time for utilization of a spring crop.

Tillage Radishes don’t like wet spots. Fields with a history of being wet are not a good choice to plant tillage radishes. One rule of thumb is if alfalfa can’t grow, neither will tillage radishes.

Radishes will winter kill when temperatures drop to the mid-teens on successive nights

Tillage radishes will winter kill similar to fall planted spring oats. One night in the teens will not take them out- it takes several nights in a row. Winter kill also depends on how warm it may get after a cold spell. Above normal temperatures after a few nights in the teens will allow the tillage radishes to recover until another cold snap arrives.

Tillage Radishes have an unpleasant odor when decaying. After tillage radishes are hit hard with cold weather and start to decay, they will emit an unpleasant odor-especially if warmer weather arrives. It’s no worse than manure per se, but then again for some it has caused them to investigate exactly where that “smell came from”.

All the pics and quotes come from the following links:

Tillage Radishes (http://www.tillageradish.com/)

Tillage Radish Research (http://www.tillageradish.com/research.htm)

FORAGE RADISHES AS COVER CROP (http://www.hort.cornell.edu/reducedtillage/Forage%20Radish.htm)

Biotilling with forage radish (http://www.newfarm.org/features/2005/1105/winterradish/bowman.shtml)

Cedar Meadow Farm (http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/)

Overseed forage radish into soybeans (http://www.newfarm.org/columns/jeff_moyer/ask/2006/0906/0914_6.shtml)

GRAZA Forage Radishes (http://www.seedtoday.com/info/articles_2col.html?companyid=7301&type=ci&ID=32520)

Seed is slightly over 2 bucks a pound very much like turnip and rape seed.

The seed I planted this year was Graza Radish and I don't know how it compares to Diakon Radishes at this point.

Graza Radish Seed (http://www.maxirack.com/poundseeds.html)

There is a great post with plenty of pics showing deer eating the forage radishes in this QDM thread: Daikon radish update (http://www.qdmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=14773&highlight=radishes)

I'll be bringing this up next summer and perhaps we can split some seed if anyone is interested. It can be mixed with other brassicas or planted alone in areas where your soil could use some serious help.:)

dbltree

10-10-2008, 10:50 AM

If you put a regular potato on my plate and a Yukon Gold potato...I'm going to eat the Yukon Gold...it's just darn tasty.

Put on or the other and I'll just eat whichever because I'm hungry! :D

So this is how we need to truly compare various food plots varieties and species of plants. Plant oats of any kind, deer will most likely eat them, but......

What happens when we plant different varieties of oats side by side? Is one a Yukon Gold???

I posted pics earlier that shared my disappointment with the extremely expensive BFO compared to the very reasonably priced commonly available Jerry oats...so here's an update and things don't look any better for the BFO's.......

This pic shows Jerry oats at the left, Buck Forage Oats and then Jerry at the very far right again.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerBFOJerOats10-10.jpg

BFO left Jerry right, the Jerry oats are taller, lusher, greener and obviously the "Yukon Gold" of the two......

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOlftJerRt.jpg

The Jerry has been heavily grazed in all areas of all the plots

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryGrazed.jpg

While the BFO has...not.......

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOnotGrazed.jpg

Here's a view end to end...starting at the bottom of the pic, there is Jerry, BFO, Jerry, BFO, Jerry and in the far upper left corner some newly late planted rye.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JBJBJ.jpg

I did this to insure that one type of oats wouldn't not have an advantage over another by being closer to a runway, etc.

I fertilized this area heavily but all. of it received the same as I went cross ways of the plot. Deer walk thru the plot from several runways which forces them to literally walk across each and every inch of it.

From that I can only surmise that very clearly they prefer the Jerry Oats over the BFO. Jerry oats are a 1/3 the cost of BFO...

In the shade where it had more moisture the Jerry oats really grew! Remember they were planted Sept 1st!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Jerry10-10.jpg

This is a second plot with BFO on the left and Jerry on the right and a few brassicas thrown in as a late planting test.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOlJerryRT10-10.jpg

Here...the Jerry is again being heavily grazed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryHeavyGrazing.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryOatsgrazed.jpg

In this plot there is at least evidence that deer have lightly grazed the BFO's

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOGrazed.jpg

Clearly if one mixes winter rye with regular oats or forage oats you can have a fantastic all winter long plot for a fraction of the cost of planting BFO which will NOT last all winter despite what we might be led to believe........

The winter rye that I broadcast on bare ground on 9-21 has come up...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/9-21Rye.jpg

I broadcast it into some standing soybeans along the edge as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryeinbeans10-10.jpg

Along with some brassicas just to show the possibles of broadcasting into beans

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WRnBrasinbeans.jpg

What about shady spots?

I planted both Jerry oats and later on broadcast winter rye into this spot in a small partial sun area

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Shadyspot.jpg

It gets 3-4 hours full sun per day and does well but areas under the trees...not so much...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Shadyrnoats.jpg

I'll check on the other farm in a few days and keep an eye on these spots while I'm hunting as well.... :)

Daver

10-10-2008, 04:01 PM

Paul - if I were you and someone drove up my driveway with a BFO hat on...I would hide!! As usual, your posts are extremely informative and the many great pictures really add to the well told story too.

It sounds like Jerry oats are the bomb!

risto2351

10-14-2008, 03:06 AM

Rye, Oats, Peas and Clover from last weekend.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC06214.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC06211.jpg

Did not see many peas but a few. They may not of grew because of lack of moisture and when we did receive it the oats and rye choked them out?? I do not know.

Did have some visitors laying around though. :D

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC06212.jpg

What temps will kill off the oats?

dbltree

10-14-2008, 03:45 AM

What temps will kill off the oats?

All varieties of oats have different degrees of winter hardiness (or cold hardiness) so temps required to actually kill it may vary.

No oats will survive temps in the 20's but many can easily survive a few frosts. Keep in mind that oats are like peas, they are meant to be planted in very early spring when they may easily be exposed to a month or more of repeated frosts and even freezes.

The exact temps are going to vary amongst us and differ by variety so we'll just have to keep an eye on them and report back.

Yours look absolutely awesome! Nice work!!

Check this thread for a previous years BFO's that were "toast" by early December.......

Oats are Toast (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=21&Number=171050&Searchpage=4&Main=18022&Words=Oats+are+toast&topic=0&Search=true#Post171050)

dbltree

10-15-2008, 03:17 PM

LATE FRIDAY NIGHT INTO SATURDAY MORNING...LOW TEMPERATURES WILL FALL
TO NEAR FREEZING WITH CONDITIONS FAVORABLE FOR FROST OR A FREEZE.

Over the next few nights I expect most of us will receive some sort of frost or freeze that will start to affect our plots.

Frost will have no affect on our rye, triticale and wheat and it takes repeated hard frosts to damage oats.

We haven't really kept track on this thread so we'll note the low temps and frost/freezes and see how long our oats last.

Kinda wished I hadn't "spruced" mine up with a shot of nitrogen...dang stuff is knee high in some places!!

Jerry oats at 6 weeks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Jerry10-15.jpg

This pic shows Jerry on the left and BFO on the right with a few late brassicas scattered in. Look closely at each and you'll see the tops nipped off the Jerry but nothing on the BFO.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryleftBFOright10-15.jpg

Two weeks until things start picking up as we head into the rut period and a month to peak breeding, so we'll keep an eye on the oats and cold weather and see how much it takes to "toast" it.... :)

dbltree

10-17-2008, 03:38 PM

Few pics of my "oat tests" from my other farm...

This pic is of exclusion cages with Jerry in the back one. You can see it's taller in the cage showing how much more they graze the Jerry. The near one is BFO and the cage is almost the same height as the rest of it, showing little grazing.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/10-16ExclusionCages.jpg

This view shows forage oats and field peas on the far right planted August 15th, then BFO, Jerry, BFO and Jerry.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/10-16OatPatch.jpg

A reverse angle of the same plots

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/10-16CerealGrains.jpg

It's interesting that they have grazed the forage oats (from nannyslayer) even though they are even more mature and the Jerry oats and rye but still have barely touched the BFO.

Little light frost but still nothing that would have a serious effect on the oats.

I'm hoping to watch this field some night and take some pics and video of usage perhaps this next week. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

impactarcher

10-21-2008, 12:14 PM

My oat plot isn't getting grazed much at all, and dispite all the talk that deer love oats I'm not a big believer. I think my rye plot is getting much more attention and I like the fact that I'm going to get more longevity out of it which means I may not plant oats again next fall. But that is just my opinon.
STEVE

dbltree

10-21-2008, 01:28 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think my rye plot is getting much more attention and I like the fact that I'm going to get more longevity out of it which means I may not plant oats again next fall </div></div>

I've been planting field rye for 40 years but oats for maybe 4-5 and rye has never failed to attract deer all fall, winter and spring.

Right now my rye is being hammered hard... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

risto2351

10-22-2008, 05:30 AM

Paul,

Looks like 50's for highs next week and supposed to be middle 20's for lows. In your past experience will this kill the oats off??

dbltree

10-23-2008, 12:00 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: risto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Paul,

Looks like 50's for highs next week and supposed to be middle 20's for lows. In your past experience will this kill the oats off??

</div></div>

I expect it will, several frosts are one thing but mid 20's is a freeze and oats won't tolerate much of that!

Not quite so cold down here but it will start to test them for sure...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saturday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 38.

Sunday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 46.

Sunday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 29.

Monday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 44.

Monday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 29.

Tuesday: Sunny, with a high near 55.

Tuesday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around 33.

Wednesday: Sunny, with a high near 56.
</div></div>

That's why I always plant rye also because it will last all winter... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

risto2351

10-23-2008, 02:30 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: risto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Paul,

Looks like 50's for highs next week and supposed to be middle 20's for lows. In your past experience will this kill the oats off??

</div></div>

I expect it will, several frosts are one thing but mid 20's is a freeze and oats won't tolerate much of that!

Not quite so cold down here but it will start to test them for sure...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saturday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 38.

Sunday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 46.

Sunday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 29.

Monday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 44.

Monday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 29.

Tuesday: Sunny, with a high near 55.

Tuesday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around 33.

Wednesday: Sunny, with a high near 56.
</div></div>

That's why I always plant rye also because it will last all winter... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Have rye in there also.

I will probably only get to hunt over the oats once this weekend.

Hope the deer enjoyed them. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

dbltree

10-26-2008, 04:59 PM

We've already had frosts hard enough to kill our flowers...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/FrostedFlowers.jpg

but it hasn't been cold enough to affect either the Jerry or BFO oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct25JernBFO.jpg

Growth has slowed with the colder weather however

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct25Oats.jpg

The rye I planted a few weeks after the oats is shorter and no doubt very tender and they are hammering it hard even though it is planted right next to the oats, clover and alfalfa

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct25Rye.jpg

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">VERY COLD TEMPERATURES WILL PLUNGE INTO THE REGION LATER TONIGHT, OCTOBER 26TH

TEMPERATURES WILL FALL BELOW FREEZING LATER TONIGHT OVER ALL THE
REGION.

A FREEZE WARNING MEANS SUB-FREEZING TEMPERATURES ARE IMMINENT OR
HIGHLY LIKELY. THESE CONDITIONS WILL KILL CROPS AND OTHER
SENSITIVE VEGETATION.

Monday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around 23.

Tuesday: Sunny, with a high near 49.

Tuesday Night: Clear, with a low around 28.

</div></div>

Brrrr! That is chilly and I suspect will toast the oats pretty hard but we'll wait and see.

This is buckwheat (the brown stuff) that died the first chilly night...anything even close to freezing will nuke buckwheat makig it a poor choice for a fall crop.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Oct25Buckwheat.jpg

Some other interesting notes...

The rye and brassicas broadcast into standing soybeans did very well and the rye at least is being hit.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyenBrassicas.jpg

Shady plot...late rye on left, jerry oats on right

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Shadedoatsnrye.jpg

I noticed a scrape in this hidden little spot as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Scrapeinoats.jpg

Cereal grains are just so cheap and easy, hard to imagine not including them in a whitetail managment program.

I'll check the oats later in the week and see how/if the freeze affects them and post the results... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sligh1

10-26-2008, 07:10 PM

After reading this and seeing the kind of information above and all the work that was put into it... Do I get some kind of Agronomy Degree and do you get some kind of Honorary Doctorate Degree?!!? Wow, impressive and thanks for all the great stuff AS USUAL!!!! My wheels are already turning for next spring! Wonderful stuff!

dbltree

11-02-2008, 01:17 PM

It's been nearly a week since temps dropped to 23 degrees here in SE Iowa...what do our oats look like now? 23 degrees is pretty darn cold! A pretty serious freeze I would say...was it enough to nuke our plain old everyday run of the mill inexpensive Jerry oats?

Nope...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Jerry10-31.jpg

Both the Jerry oats ($16 for 64#'s) and BFO ($34 for 50#'s) still look the same... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Jerry on the right BFO on the left

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryRBFOL10-31.jpg

These oats have been hit by several frosts and several freezes...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/10-31Oats.jpg

BFO Left Jerry Right

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOLJerryR10-31.jpg

I've already showed closeups that deer had been hammering the Jerry oats but scarcely touching the BFO's and now we know it takes more then a few nights of temps in the 20's to kill everyday oats.

At this point deer are grazing the rye to the ground and showing less interest in either of the oats, which...is why I mix oats and rye! The combination is a can't fail, never miss combo that will last all season....

but...hold on... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

I always get some argument from those that happen to sell certain products that their oats are better then rye because....they (claim) to be higher in protein.

Being an old dairymen it's pretty hard to buffalo me because I understand forage testing and I believe university test versus what a seed salesmen tells me.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

So here are the hard cold facts on nutritive values of oats versus rye.

NDF, ADF and IVOMD is higher in oats then rye. What you say?? What on earth do those things mean??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Neutral detergent fiber (NDF)The insoluble portion of the forage (neutral detergent fiber) contains the cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin and silica. It is commonly referred to as the cell wall fraction.

Neutral detergent fiber has been shown to be negatively correlated with dry matter intake. In other words, as the NDF in forages increases, animals will be able to consume less forage. NDF increases with the advancing maturity of forages. A better prediction of forage intake can be made using NDF; therefore, better rations can be formulated.

Acid Detergent Fiber (ADF)

Acid detergent fiber is the portion of the forage that remains after treatment with a detergent under acid conditions. It includes the cellulose, lignin and silica.

Acid detergent fiber is important because it has been shown to be negatively correlated with how digestible a forage may be when fed. As the ADF increases, the forage becomes less digestible

In Vitro Organic Matter Digestibility (IVOMD)

in vitro (in glass or in test tube) procedures are seldom used for farm forage analysis. They are, however, commonly used by scientists to evaluate forage quality.

Most often, dry matter disappearance in a specific period of time is measured and this value will indicate how digestible a forage may be. The term in situ (in bag) may be used to describe the procedure where small nylon bags containing samples of forage are placed in the rumen of live animals consuming similar diets to the forage being evaluated.

This is done through a sealed external opening into the rumen of an animal, called a canula.

In vitro is usually a two-step procedure done in test tubes. First the forage sample is digested using rumen fluid from a donor animal to simulate rumen digestion. The sample is then digested in an enzyme solution to simulate digestion in the small intestine. Both in situ and in vitro are excellent techniques for forage evaluation when more expensive and time-consuming digestion or feeding trials are not possible.

Digestion trials are an excellent way to evaluate forages or other feeds for nutrient availability. In this procedure, the forage is fed to several animals. The amount of forage fed and feces produced in a 10 to 14 day period is recorded and sampled for analysis.

Because an analysis can be done on both the feed and the feces, it is possible to determine the digestibility for each nutrient in the feed. For example, the protein digestibility could calculate to be 75 percent digestible while the cell wall fractions may only be 59 percent digestible

</div></div>

The in vitro thing is pretty cool because they have cows with glass covers over and opening in their stomach...just reach in and get a "sample"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Anyway....the gist of it is this, regardless of what the crude protein level is, the undigestable part can lower the Relative Feed Value (RFV)

In universty tests I have seen rye tested higher in CP regardless but further testing also reveals that oats have lower digestability due to higher levels of NDF, ADF and IVOMD and lower crude protein even before factoring in the NDF!!

Catching all of that?? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rye contained less (P<0.05) NDF than all other forages.

oat had the highest average NDF content (P<0.05), but there were no differences (P>0.05) among other forages.

</div></div>

In summary, rye will have higher Relative Feed Value (RFV) then oats but...

so what?

My take on feed value in the fall is that it's pretty much a moot point!

Horns are already developed, fawns being weaned and deer have a cornucopia of food sources. On top of this they know...they know what they need, they don't need any testing to know what they should eat.

They will pick the food sources near them that are high in protein and energy and that are highly digestable at the same time. Livestock are fenced and they have little or no choice, so we endeavor to feed them the very best so they will gain faster or produce more milk.

I'm sharing all of this with you so you can sort out the facts from the B.S. when a salesmen or fancy ad has you wondering.

Deer right now are hammering my rye over oats and alfalfa more then anything else...they don't need me or a fancy ad to tell them what they need. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

The following links will further explain and help you and help you sort through the hype...

Forage Nutrition for Ruminants (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/dairy/as1250w.htm)

Nutritive value of fall-grown cereal-grain forages (http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=202969)

Yield and Quality of Small Grains (http://rcrec-ona.ifas.ufl.edu/or9-98.html)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Harvesting Florida 401 rye and Sunland triticale at the boot stage averaged <span style="color: #FF0000">14% crude protein </span>whereas, the oats and wheat averaged <span style="color: #FF0000">10 to 11% crude protein </span>at the same stage.

Digestibility was also excellent for all small grains when harvested at the boot stage averaging 78% for triticale, 72% for rye and wheat and 67% for oats. </div></div>

I don't sell seed...just share facts.... rye will out perform oats and regular spring oats are more attractive and a better value then the tested winter hardy oat /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do I get some kind of Agronomy Degree ?!!? </div></div>

We'll allow Skip to make up class after deer season... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Limb Chicken

11-03-2008, 03:42 AM

Nov.2 Winter Rye/Clover. They are hitting the rye hard hopefully they will continue right through late muzzy!

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/DSC02225.jpg

dbltree

11-03-2008, 07:19 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Limb Chicken</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nov.2 Winter Rye/Clover. They are hitting the rye hard hopefully they will continue right through late muzzy!

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/DSC02225.jpg </div></div>

Nice work on the rye Limb! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

They'll be hitting it during late muzzy and don't forget the rye field will be a great shed hunting spot too.. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Shed%20Hunting/Antlerintherye.jpg

More facts on the high nutritive value of winter rye as a forage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Along with the high yield potential and early-spring grazing that winter rye can offer, producers need to consider the forage quality characteristics of rye.

High-quality grasses have >18% crude protein (CP), < 35% acid detergent fiber (ADF), and < 55% neutral detergent fiber (NDF).

The ADF and NDF values are indicators of the digestibility and the potential intake of the forage.

In Ohio studies, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>CP levels of rye were as high as 34%, ADF values as low as 17%, and NDF values as low as 28%</span>. When rye is grazed in the vegetative stage, <span style="color: #FF0000">it is highly digestible </span>and intake is not limited, making it more suitable for livestock with high nutritional needs. </div></div>

Winter Rye (http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0026.html)

dbltree

11-25-2008, 09:37 AM

November is drawing to a close and it's been a wild month, from extemely warm weather to 12 degrees! I've lost track of the nights it dropped well in to the mid to low teens.

Water frozen in the creeks tells you were not talking about a couple "light frosts" here... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

So lets take a look at the different oats and the winter rye...how do they look, how has usage been and how they all stack up at this stage of the game.

As with the brassicas I have the test plots on two different farms 20 miles apart with completely different deer and surrounding crop/cover situations.

The home place does not have quite as high of deer density and my plots are all adjacent to all major food sources from corn, soybeans and alfalfa. The plots themselves contain various white and red clovers, brassicas, two types of oats and rye grain.

They can afford to be choosey and usually are, so if they like something I can assure you they'll most likely eat it anywhere.

This pic shows both BFO and Jerry oats and there are two strips of each in this pic. Both are still green as of 11-22-08 but only the Jerry oats have been heavily grazed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21OatTestPlots.jpg

Jerry oats, you can see have been grazed hard and are starting to show the stress a little.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryBrowsing.jpg

These are the same oats but up close to a ground blind where they are wary of getting to close and you can see they are still lush and green despite the frigid temps.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21JerryOatsVB.jpg

This is BFO in the same plot that has seen some light grazing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOBrowsing.jpg

The winter rye has however been grazed to the ground! They love rye and if I only had one choice it would be rye!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21Rye.jpg

This rye and some brassicas was sown into standing soys on 9-15 and it's been driven on as they combined and turned on the headland.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21Ryeplanted9-15.jpg

Now the other farm, they eat everything...literally, so it's a little harder to compare because they just don't care! If it's edible it's going down the hatch! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

In this pic, oats planted Aug 15th with peas are on the far left, then strips of BFO, Jerry and the far right strips have some winter rye included that was broadcast on several weeks later (into the planted oats)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21OatPatch.jpg

As in the pics from the other farm, the Jerry is showing signs of stress because they hammered it so hard. This is from heavy grazing rather then the cold.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatPatch.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21Jerryoats.jpg

This is a closeup of how heavily they have grazed the Jerry spring oats

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryGrazedoats.jpg

They finally decided to eat the BFO on this farm along with the Jerry but up until recently they wouldn't touch it.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFO-1.jpg

The fall/winter rye grain has been heavily grazed

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21Winterrye.jpg

The most economical and effective cereal grain planting is without a doubt a mix of spring pats (such as Jerry or a good forage oat such as Frank) and field rye.

You can be assured of planting a foos source that they will be very attracted to without spending a fortune on seed with a "Big Buck" on the bag... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Now...a few other thoughts.

For the most tender oats and rye, shoot for early to mid September especially if you have low deer densities.

What about planting earlier?

These oats were planted Aug 15th with peas and have also been heavily grazed, however I suspect on my other farm they would have been passed over now for more tender younger oats.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsnPeas11-21planted8-15-1.jpg

These oats were volunteer from tilling down mature spring oats on August 1st, again they have been grazed but perhaps in an unfair comparison and I wouldn't advocate planting them this early. They were forage oats from nannyslayer and obviously deer love them!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21OatsplantedAug1.jpg

What about mixing with brassicas?

If you plant in early September and sow the bassicas very very thinly (1-2#'s per acre) and use nitrogen it can work but maximum forage production will come from planting seperately and planting brassicas in late July and oats in early September.

This pic is of oats and a last minute toss of some brassica seed down the center on September 1st and it has also been driven over by harvesting equipment.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/11-21Brassicasinoatsplanted9-01.jpg

Notice that were the brassicas are thicker, there are no oats!

This is a closeup of the brassicas in the center and you will be hard pressed to find any oats!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tothick-1.jpg

A sprinkling of brassica seed before packing will be ok but that stuff is fine seed so you need to practically run as you sow it with the seeder on the lowest setting! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

BTW...the doggone deer at the second farm even knocked my exclusion cages over so as not to miss nary a morsel! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tippedcage.jpg

I had them staked but that didn't phase them in the slightest.

It's still a challenge to plant something on this farm that will last through the seasons until January and winter rye seems to be one of the only food sources that can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Share some photos of your cereal grain combos as the season progresses so others can see what works and what doesn't. Include planting dates and other info if you can... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Feel free to email me pics if your not comfortable posting yourself: dbltree2000@yahoo.com

dbltree

12-15-2008, 07:43 AM

Mid December now and we are past the rut and first shotgun season here in Iowa, which for many of us make up the bulk of our hunting.

Late muzzleloader and archery still remain however and it's nice to know what will last into the late season and if it lasts, will deer actually eat it?

A close up of the Jerry oats shows that they have grazed it heavily

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Grazedjerry.jpg

while the BFO oats, though still green, still remain largely untouched!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/UntouchedBFO.jpg

This pic shows a hidden semi shaded plot with Jerry oats to the right and still fairly green. Rye was planted to the left and in this small area they had grubbed it clean to the ground!!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Hiddenjerry12-12.jpg

As expected the BFO stayed green longer, however it's a moot point if they refuse to eat it. This is something I never expected but they just really don't like it!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOnJerry.jpg

My high deer density farm they have eaten everything in sight, including the BFO that they hadn't eaten earlier.

However they have shown a clear preference to the winter rye (field rye/fall rye grain...NOT ryegrass!) and grazed it to the dirt. I took a pic but it really reveals nothing be there is scarcely anything left. Had I planted more rye versus oats it would have been better able to withstand the heavy grazing.

All I can say is that field rye that lasts ALL winter at 12 bucks a bag and that deer clearly love, certainly makes more sense then BFO that is nearly 40 bucks a bag and deer don't care for.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DeecOatpatch.jpg

Where a person spends their money is none of my business but if you want the best results at a resonable price, stick with field rye and throw a few forage oats in with it.

If they don't eat that combination your deer have something more attractive nearby such as corn or standing soybeans.

bowhuntr311

12-15-2008, 11:47 AM

Great post again.

So werent we on the kick that deer preferred the oats over the rye earlier in the year?

I havent been out to my rye/oats patch in a month, but it appeared to m,e on my plot, that the deer like the straight rye than the rye/oats mix.

dbltree

12-15-2008, 11:57 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowhuntr311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great post again.

So werent we on the kick that deer preferred the oats over the rye earlier in the year?

I havent been out to my rye/oats patch in a month, but it appeared to m,e on my plot, that the deer like the straight rye than the rye/oats mix.

</div></div>

I have always felt that rye was preferred but they do love oats so it's always "debatable" to that end.

My testing was more to test the merits of extremely expensive highly advertised and touted oats versus regular spring oats that are readily available and very inexpensive and how oats in general compared to rye.

My end result is that rye alone would be perfectly fine and oats could be left out of the equation altogeter, but I like to mix them because oats are also a tender succulant draw early on.

I believe that these tests put to rest any doubts about the merits of plain, regular oats and rye compared to oats with a "big buck" on the bag and a 40 dollar price tag...... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Skully

12-16-2008, 08:38 AM

Great updates Paul! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif My winter-wheat/rye plot never got very tall either. I forgot to put up a cage for comparison. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif I was wondering if this stuff will take off again in the spring for the turkeys to enjoy, or will I have to frost seed some fresh seed into the plot?

dbltree

12-16-2008, 09:08 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skully</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Great updates Paul! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif My winter-wheat/rye plot never got very tall either. I forgot to put up a cage for comparison. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif I was wondering if this stuff will take off again in the spring for the turkeys to enjoy, or will I have to frost seed some fresh seed into the plot? </div></div>

No need to do anything Skully, both winter rye and winter wheat will green up in the spring and grow like crazy!

You may need to clip it to keep it short enough for turkeys to strut in, into May, otherwise your good to go... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

lassig

12-16-2008, 01:26 PM

Looks like my left over BFO will be used for cover crop for the alfalfa and winter rye will be my cereal grain next fall.

hillrunner

12-16-2008, 02:38 PM

The deer on my property hit the oats hard all the way through November but are focused 100% on the alfalfa now that the temps have dropped sub zero.

Skully

12-17-2008, 05:02 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbltree</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skully</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Great updates Paul! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif My winter-wheat/rye plot never got very tall either. I forgot to put up a cage for comparison. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif I was wondering if this stuff will take off again in the spring for the turkeys to enjoy, or will I have to frost seed some fresh seed into the plot? </div></div>

No need to do anything Skully, both winter rye and winter wheat will green up in the spring and grow like crazy!

You may need to clip it to keep it short enough for turkeys to strut in, into May, otherwise your good to go... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

</div></div>

Awesome! Just the news I was wanting to hear! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

risto2351

12-18-2008, 03:32 AM

Well the moment of truth is upon us.

We now have 6" of snow with 10" more coming.

Hope to hunt tonight and tomorrow.
I better see some action in the turnips and rye or next year
they are on their own. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Darn deer anyway. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

dbltree

12-26-2008, 03:51 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We now have 6" of snow with 10" more coming. </div></div>

We've had some dandy winter weather here in SE Iowa this December with ice, snow bitter cold down to minus 12 actual! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Right now everything has a "healthy" covering of snow and crop fields have been picked over. The big fields have also been blasted by bitter winds making smaller hidden plot a whole lot more attractive.

The oats are pretty well toasted (both BFO and Jerry) but the winter rye is still green and attractive. Deer are digging thru the snow to get at my mix of oats and rye...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsRye112-25-08.jpg

These plots are right beside crop fields and clover plots but are the only spots getting any action.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/OatsRye212-25-08.jpg

You can't go wrong with rye since it can withstand the harshest winter weather. Even winter wheat is not as coldhardy as winter rye nor is wheat as palatable and attractive to deer.

If anyone has pics of their cereal grains here in early winter, please share with us. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

ajadams

12-28-2008, 06:43 AM

My rye really hasn't seen much action so far, and with all the melting the last couple days, it might not for awhile yet.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Picture_0021.jpg

I think the beans poking through the snow around it have seen more action.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Picture_0061.jpg

And my competition to the east is pretty tough.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Picture_0102.jpg

There's a lot of food for them right now, but I think they will be in there later on this winter and for sure in the spring.

dbltree

12-28-2008, 11:30 AM

Pretty tough to compete against standing corn, in fact more like impossible! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Corn is one thing that is a sure bet if you can grow it, but I just can't plant enough of it to last until hunting season starts let alone ends.

They are bypassing one of my farms altogether to get to a combined corn field right now and all I can do is wave at em as they go by... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif

risto2351

12-29-2008, 03:22 AM

I took some quick pictures this past weekend of the rye, oats and clover.

The snow was blown off of the top and I thought the deer would be in it but the night I was there they weren't. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

They were pawing through it when there was 10+ inches on top of it.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC06958.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC06959.jpg

The recent rain and thaw has uncovered a lot of areas for the deer again. Ice could be a problem though. Hopefully todays warm temps help.

dbltree

01-15-2009, 03:51 AM

Right now it would be impossible to beat standing corn or beans but barring that, winter rye is the next best option.

Literally anyone can plant rye, it's cheap and easily broadcast even into killed sod if need be, where as corn and soys are expensive and can easily be decimated in small plots.

I took a couple more pics before we got the latest batch of snow to again, showing the difference between oats and rye...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/RyeinJan.jpg

It doesn't look like much because the rye has been grazed to the dirt but it's easy to see that the rye is still green while the oats are dead as a doornail!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Ryefrontoatsback.jpg

Mixing oats and rye works well but planting oats alone means wasting your plot the last half of the season.

Keep in mind that you are looking at both BFO and common spring oats, so NO oats can survive bitter winter temps!!

Rye not only can, but it will survive the most bitter winter temps and conditions and then thrive the following spring to make great spring feed and an awesome green manure plowdown /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/DeadOatsnliverye.jpg

Brassicas make great early winter feed but when it gets severe...there isn't much left...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JanuaryBrassicas.jpg

Let's not forget that if you are fortunate to be able to grow corn and soys that rye is easily broadcast into standing corn an beans in late August/early September to add some green to the grain. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

risto2351

01-15-2009, 05:12 AM

Dbl.

Poor deer have not been able to find mine since 1st shotgun season and the ice storm. They had a couple of days when the wind blew it off and then after that the snow and ice again took over.
Don't know if they will be of use until spring or not.

Limb Chicken

01-15-2009, 05:23 AM

They have been digging through the snow to get to mine but the brassicas right next to it have gone untouched. I am going to try the brassicas again next year but if they don't figure them out then, I am done with planting them. I am going to plant soybeans next year and let them stand. There is a little patch of an area about 5 ft by 6 ft and the deer are still coming to them. There can't be anything left but they keep eating the stalks.

ajadams

01-15-2009, 08:42 AM

They haven't been hitting my rye very well this year. They have been hitting the picked beans very hard. I dumped some ear corn next to my brassica plot last week and just checked it the other day. I think they may have finaly figured out what the brassicas are.

Limb Chicken

01-15-2009, 08:48 AM

I may throw some shelled corn into the brassicas to see if they figure them out... There is a ton of food there for them if they figure it out...

risto2351

01-16-2009, 04:05 AM

I would love to do that. Sounds liek a great idea.

Downside is it is under 12"+ of snow and 2 ice storms. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Please keep us posted if this works or not. Might save me
from scrapping them next year. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

ajadams

02-11-2009, 11:40 AM

I saw my rye plot for the first time in a couple monthes today. It has been covered in lots of ice and snow. It looks pretty good and is doing its primary job of holding dirt, this area was leveled off last summer and I put rye in to hold it. I want to eventualy put switch in, but I don't want it all to wash away. Down side is I saw very few tracks in it so I don't know what to think.

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P2111084.JPG

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P2111085.JPG

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P2111086.JPG

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/P2111087.JPG

dbltree

02-11-2009, 01:35 PM

Looks good! Could be there is/was less snow in neighboring bean fields and they haven't figured out there is some " green stuff" nearby... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

wibohnt

02-22-2009, 01:42 PM

I have two acre food plot that I have paid to have put into either beans or corn the past couple years. The problem is it is expensive and the high deer densities virtually wipe them out by November. After reading these posts I am contemplating splitting the plot 1/2 rye/oats and 1/2 brassicas. I should be able to plant these myself saving some money. I am wondering if these two crops are good candidates to rotate back and forth each year. Also it sounds like nitrogen is key, what is the best way to apply?

dbltree

02-22-2009, 03:19 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wibohnt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have two acre food plot that I have paid to have put into either beans or corn the past couple years. The problem is it is expensive and the high deer densities virtually wipe them out by November. After reading these posts I am contemplating splitting the plot 1/2 rye/oats and 1/2 brassicas. I should be able to plant these myself saving some money. I am wondering if these two crops are good candidates to rotate back and forth each year. Also it sounds like nitrogen is key, what is the best way to apply? </div></div>

That's exactly my reasons for going to a simpler less expensive type of food plot! Corn is just terribly expensive and I can't possibly plant enough to have it last past the 1st of October!

Cereal grains and brassicas are excellent crops to rotate back and forth and are very easy and inexpensive to plant.

I would encourage you to add an inexpensive red clover to your rye plantings and frost seed the same clover into the dead brassicas this time of year.

Each spring the red clover will provide a high protien food source and also add free nitrogen when you til it under for the subsequent food plot.

Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39) from Welters is my favorite red clover for a green manure plowdown and deer love it as well.

Here's the deal...

In late July plant your brassicas (see the Brassica (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=143471&fpart=1) thread)

Till, spread 150#'s of 46-0-0 urea, pac, spread 5#'s of brassica seed, re-pack. The following late febuary, early March frost seed red clover into the brassica patch.

In the last week of August thru Labor Day till under the seasons growth of red clover, add 200#'s of triple 19 (optional...I often don't feed cereal grains at all) broadcast 80#'s of fall rye grain and 40-60#'s of spring oats, pack, broadcast 8-10#'s of red clover and re-pack. You can add Austrian Winter Peas if you like (they will get murdered /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif )

Each year rotate the plots...easy as pie!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

You can buy rye and oat seed locally at most seed and feed stores but here's a couple example from Welters.

Frank Forage Oats (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=195)

Fall Rye Grain (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=201)

Austrian Winter Peas (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=278)

Brassica seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=3&org=0)

Here's a coupl shots of two different spots I broadcast rye on bare ground (no tillage)
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WinterRye1.jpg

This is rye broadcast into standing soybeans in September

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/WinterRye2.jpg

wibohnt

02-23-2009, 01:57 AM

These two acres were in beans last year so I am guessing it would still make sense to frost seed the red clover yet this year. Correct? I will be out of town for a week or so, I would not be able to frost seed it until the weekend of March 13th. That shouldn't be too late or is it? I have not worked with 46-0-0 urea, is it granular and can I buy that at a local mill?

dbltree

02-23-2009, 12:18 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wibohnt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These two acres were in beans last year so I am guessing it would still make sense to frost seed the red clover yet this year. Correct? I will be out of town for a week or so, I would not be able to frost seed it until the weekend of March 13th. That shouldn't be too late or is it? I have not worked with 46-0-0 urea, is it granular and can I buy that at a local mill? </div></div>

Yes that would be the best bet, get that bean ground seeded to red clover and March 13th should be just right!

Even heavy spring rains will help it make soil contact so no worries either way.

Urea is just granular fertlizer that can be purchased at any grain elevator/fertlizer/ag supply source. It may or may not be available in bags.

You can use triple 13 or triple 19 but 150#'s of urea equals 69#'s of actual N

So you would need nearly 400#'s of triple 19 or 500+ #'s of triple 13 to get enough N on.

Your gonna have a great setup for good crop rotation and green manure usage, so keep us posted and share some pics with us this fall. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

wibohnt

02-26-2009, 02:37 PM

dbltree-
One portion of the field I will frost seeding with the red clover gave me lots of problems with weeds last year while it was in beans. I think I sprayed it 3, maybe 4 times with round-up last season. Hopefully that will keep the weeds down this year after the clover takes off. Should I worry that much about the weeds if it will all be tilled under before plating the rye and brassicas? Is mowing or chemical treatment preferred in this situation?

dbltree

02-26-2009, 10:28 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Should I worry that much about the weeds if it will all be tilled under before planting the rye and brassicas? Is mowing or chemical treatment preferred in this situation? </div></div>

Couple things...

1st We need to keep clover clipped as it starts to flower otherwise it will stop fixing nitrogen.

2nd "Weeds" ar most likely foxtail and broadleaves and both can be kept curtailed by clipping 6-8" high as needed.

As the clover thickens up it will start to dominate and crowd out weeds and even weeds make good "green manure".

The clippings will just add organic matter to your soil and clipping is generally less expensive then herbicides. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

wibohnt

02-27-2009, 02:24 AM

"1st We need to keep clover clipped as it starts to flower otherwise it will stop fixing nitrogen."

dbltree-
When does the clover start to flower? If I am cutting the weeds at 6-8" will those cutting do the same thing or does it flower at a different time?

dbltree

02-27-2009, 11:32 PM

When does the clover start to flower? If I am cutting the weeds at 6-8" will those cutting do the same thing or does it flower at a different time?

It won't matter if you clip it before flowering to control weeds but just making a point that when it does flower, clip it, weeds or not...

wibohnt

02-28-2009, 09:13 AM

Excuse my ignorance, does it flower just once or multiple times? And what is the general time frame?

Thanks for your guidance!

dbltree

02-28-2009, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted By: wibohnt
Excuse my ignorance, does it flower just once or multiple times? And what is the general time frame?

Thanks for your guidance

If left uncut it will flower by late June and eventually go to seed.

I don't have an exact time frame but I think clover flowers roughly in 3-4 weeks after clipping and will do so all season unless there is dry weather, frost or it remains uncut and goes to seed.

Sligh1

04-29-2009, 05:57 PM

Just read the thread on SPIKE OATS. I am thinking WAY AHEAD for a plot I am planting in August. I can fertilize later, PH is good.

If you could pick a few things to go in a mix what would it be? Annual Rye seems to be a favorite I hear mentioned.
Would you mix in a Winter Wheat or bag that component?
Jerry Oats or Frank Forage oats OR would you not go with any oats at all??
The last component COULD be something like a Turnip or something, what is your specific choice there????
Or would you throw these ideas out and go with some type of fast maturing beans, peas, etc???
Nearby I have 8 acres of Grazing Alfalfa, 4 acres of regular round-up ready beans, some standing corn and white clover with a small patch of red also. Looking for more November, December & January attractant- really worried the deer are going to starve! :)

Thanks!!!

dbltree

04-29-2009, 08:54 PM

My favorite fall mix is winter rye, spring oats and AWP's, it's to late to get any real growth out of brassicas and they don't coexist well with cereal grains (or anything else for that matter)

Forget the wheat...it's a nitrogen user while rye is a nitrogen scavenger, it can grow on almost any PH, with no fertilizer, it build soil, it has alleopathic weed control benefits and is the most winter hardy of all cereal grains.

On top of that rye has the highest crude protien which makes rye a no brainer! Plant it the last week of August thru the first week in September.

Very inexpensive mix to seed too! :way:

corygnc

06-08-2009, 05:10 PM

dbltree

06-09-2009, 01:13 AM

In Kansas where I hunt they plant wheat for about 5 years in a row and then rotate to milo.

What would a guy have to do to plant rye/oats/AWP every year?

Could you plant soybeans in the spring and then disc under and plant the rye/oats/AWP?

How many years could you do that in a row till you need to rotate?

Thanks Very Much For Your Unbelievable Knowledge!

Great question! I include an inexpensive red clover with my fall rye/oats/peas combo every year and that allows you to have a spring food source and a late summer legume plowdown that helps break up any disease/pest cycles.

This is red clover planted last fall with rye...this pic was taken in late May!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/08Fallplantedcloverspring09.jpg

You can clip the rye off in late may or Early June or just leave it standing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Fallplantedcloverinrye.jpg

The oats of course will have died during cold weather but the rye will survive and mature just like wheat.

This is field rye in late may

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/S5001882.jpg

This is the "seed head" just like wheat and if you let them mature and till it under in late summer the scattered seed will come up again.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/S5001883.jpg

The clover will be thicker if the rye is clipped off in mid spring so that it can get plenty of light.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Redcloverblossom.jpg

In short I suspect that you could go for years using this combination of rye/oats/AWP and red clover and never have a problem. None of those food sources are prone to disease like brassicas and wheat tend to be.

Soybeans are certainly an option but they would be very expensive compared to planting clover, although cereal rye could be broadcast into standing soybeans in late August. :)

corygnc

06-09-2009, 10:03 AM

Is Red Clover the cheapest and best clover to mix with the fall plot for spring benefits (deer food, putting nitrogen back in the ground, etc)?

Any other clovers you would recommend?

Thanks Again!

dbltree

06-09-2009, 11:14 AM

Is Red Clover the cheapest and best clover to mix with the fall plot for spring benefits (deer food, putting nitrogen back in the ground, etc)?

Any other clovers you would recommend?

Thanks Again!

I usually use Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39) because it produces a large amount of organic mass to till under and deer seem to really hammer the stuff.

At 10-12#'s per acre it will run $20-25 an acre to add it to your fall grain mix.

Any of the white clovers will also work equally as well running only slightly more per acre. I have fall seeded Alice, KopuII and Jumbo Ladino white clovers for at 6#'s per acre which runs $25-30 an acre.

Any white or red clover would work well I just try to keep costs down for a plow down clover versus a long term clover plot.

You can find a selection of anything you need right here: Welter's Clover Seed List (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Outdoor Family

06-09-2009, 03:06 PM

dbltree
Couple questions. What would the seeding rate for AWP, Rye, Oats and Red Clover be per acre? Also, I am hoping to plant Buckwheat late June, prior to APW/Rye/Oat/Clover planting in early September. Is two months of BW enough time to help with weeds and soil?
Thanks

corygnc

06-09-2009, 03:16 PM

Another question that maybe could be answered at the same time:

I have a brome field that I am converting to Rye-Oats-AWP-Red Clover.

Would you fertilize it?
What is the ideal date to plant these? (i'm in SW Iowa)

Thanks Very Much!

dbltree

06-10-2009, 12:55 AM

What would the seeding rate for AWP, Rye, Oats and Red Clover be per acre? Also, I am hoping to plant Buckwheat late June, prior to APW/Rye/Oat/Clover planting in early September. Is two months of BW enough time to help with weeds and soil

2 months is plenty for buckwheat and probally just perfect timing!

Planting rates for the mix can vary widely depending on your budget because it's not going to be used for grain, only forage meaning that we can sow much heavier then normal rates.

Rates depend on your expected usage or deer densities so there is no "right/wrong" just a range to choose from.

I like to sow 80#'s of winter rye, 80-120#'s of oats and 15-30#'s of AWPeas and 8-12#'s of red clover.

Till, plant grains, cultipack to cover, sow red clover and re-cultipack Grains can be lightly disced or dragged an 1" or so deep but clover needs to be just pressed into the top 1/8 to 1/4" of soil so don't mix clover seed with the grains.

You can use lower rates, you can leave out the oats and peas or mix and match to your choice but that's what I use in my high deer desnity area's. Look back at the beginning of this thread for details and pictures...;)

Another question that maybe could be answered at the same time:

I have a brome field that I am converting to Rye-Oats-AWP-Red Clover.

Would you fertilize it?
What is the ideal date to plant these? (i'm in SW Iowa)

Thanks Very Much!

I almost never fertilize cereal grains so it's entirely up to the landowner if your trying to build soil fertility and PH then it's a good time to start adding P&K based on soil tests and lime if it's needed.

The grains will grow with out adding anything unless the ground is extremely poor. If you expect very heavy grazing then adding 100#'s of urea per acre will cause the rye and oats to take off like a rocket!

Sometimes growth can be TOO fast when nitrogen is added so use a little caution when using nitrogen. It's better with later planted grains then earlier.

In southern Iowa, very late August through Labor Day is optimum planting time for fall grains with the first of September being what I shoot for.

Again...flip back to page one for more details on all of your questions...:)

Outdoor Family

06-12-2009, 12:14 AM

Thanks Dbltree
I have two other fields that I will be planting a rape/turnip mix in. Could I add red clover over the top of them also, to have a spring green up and adding N to the ground…

dbltree

06-12-2009, 12:47 AM

Thanks Dbltree
I have two other fields that I will be planting a rape/turnip mix in. Could I add red clover over the top of them also, to have a spring green up and adding N to the ground…

Rape and turnips need to be planted in late July to early August and they will quickly dominate and completely shade the ground. I have tried planting clover with them but it doesn't stand a chance and not a single clover plant survives.

Check the brassica thread for pics and examples: Brassicas (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15388)

I have tried frost seeding into brassica plots and it will work if deer completely devour the plot, if however they leave most of it, the decaying plants are too toxic and have some alleopathic characteristics that can keep clover seed from germinating or even growing if it does germinate.

So far I have had the most success by tilling the spent brassica plot under in the spring and re-planting with oats and berseem clover and then tilling that under the end of the summer for a rye/oats/AWP plot.

Doing this allows me to rotate crops and keep disease and pest problems at a minimum....;)

corygnc

06-22-2009, 05:14 PM

dbltree

06-22-2009, 11:56 PM

Talked to Monte today with Iowa Habitats on fall food plots (great company if you guys ever need someone to do food plots, native plantings or TSI---www.iowahabitats.com)

He recommended broadcasting the oats, wheat, AWP, Red Clover and 1/3 of the rye around Sept 1st. Ten days to two weeks later broadcasting another 1/3 of the rye on same plot. Then the other 1/3 a week later. He said the different growth stages of the rye could be more attractive.

Thought it was a good idea.

It can work if you get rains so that the rye will germinate although usually it doesn't take to much.

Can't hurt except that I like to get them planted and stay the heck out of the food plots thru the fall.

The only way you can tell if something like that is worth the effort is to split the plot and add more rye to one side only and see if they find it more attractive.

I don't ned to coax mine, doggone things devour everything in site anyway...:D

Let us know how it works out...:)

corygnc

06-23-2009, 05:00 PM

dbltree

06-24-2009, 01:26 AM

Was looking at Albert Lea Seed Catalog and with the rye, AWP, and instead of the red clover, why not plant alsike clover.

It says for red clover to plant 10 to 12 lbs per acre and the seed cost $2.70 per pound

It says for alsike clover to plant 5 to 8 lbs per acre and the seed cost $1.40 per pound

If we are going to plowdown the clover, why not go with the "much" cheaper kind and my QDMA Quality Food Plots book gives Alsike clover a 5 star for attraction

Dbltree, we need your expertise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great question, there are other options but here are my thoughts...

First off I use Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)from Welter seed and it's only $2 a pound or roughly $20 an acre.

Red Clover fixes more nitrogen per acre then Alsike and more pounds per acre of organic matter when plowed down. I have also noticed that deer seem to find red clover more palatable and attractive then alsike.

Alsike has a few problems:

Alsike clover is intolerant of drought and high temperatures. It will not survive on land that floods in spring, but dries up in the heat of summer. Salinity tolerance is also low.

Shade tolerance is poor which makes it less useful for mixtures with tall growing grasses

Alsike is adapted to moist low lying areas and I have all dry upland hill ground so consider that as well. Rye is tall and shading so you would want to clip the rye in the spring.

Having said that, if saving 10 bucks an acre is important to you, then it certainly would work. Just keep in mind that you "get what you pay for" as the benefits will be decreased along with the decreased expense.

Albert Lea has a great seed selection but shipping will be less for you if you order from Welter Seed (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductTypes.aspx) in Iowa or check locally for red clover seed as often local producers may have it for less then $2 a pound and no shipping at all.

Adding white, red or alsike is a big plus and the difference in cost per acre is really minimal if you shop around for seed. In the spring, annuals such as berseem or crimson clovers fill the bill for green manure plowdowns.

In Iowa red clover is on of the most adaptable and widely used clovers for grazing and hay production and for me it's merits make it my choice for a plowdown clover...;)

corygnc

07-02-2009, 09:22 AM

dbltree

07-03-2009, 01:36 AM

Dbltree,

Bought all of my oats, rye, AWP, red clover and a little wheat.

1. Should I innoculate any of these (I see in the past you have innoculated the AWP)

2. How is the best way to mix this stuff. I have a 3 point broadcaster just like the red one you have dbltree?

3. Should I premix it before going to the field? I was even thinking of taking some large plastic trash cans and mix them and have them ready so when I am in the field I am getting stuff done (I have about 10 acres of this to do)?

Thanks Again!!!!!!

Yes...you need to inoculate the peas and red clover as they are both legumes and you can order it from Welters for a few bucks and mix the inoculate with the legume seed in a seperate bucket before mixing seeds together.

Welters Inoculation (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=21&org=0)

I mix the seeds right in the spreader, pour some of each in, stir it up, them keep adding and stirring but you could pre mix it for sure.

Make sure you wait until at least the last week in August before planting and DO NOT mix the red clover with the larger grains!

Sow the peas, rye, oats and wheat, cultipack to cover then broadcast the red clover and re-pack to cover that.

The red clover seed is very very tiny so if you use your broadcast spreader close it done to just barely let the RC seed go thru.

Personally I use a hand seeder to sow the clover seeds because it's easier to control but the 3 pt will work fine if you close it way down and check your seeding rate...;)

risto2351

07-07-2009, 07:37 AM

Rye is growing like a weed.

There is clover in there but can not see it very well in the pictures.

I need to give it a haircut this weekend and get ready to till it under for the brassicas and turnips.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC07584-1.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC07584.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC07585.jpg

corygnc

07-13-2009, 05:22 PM

Am just tilling up some old brome stands. Am putting in the wheat, oats, rye, AWP, red clover mix on 80% of the area (Sept. 1ish) and canola with PT turnips on other 20% of area (Aug. 1ish).

Do you recommend fertilizing? PH was fine.

It is a plenty large area (4 plots, 10 acres total).

Was talking to buddy in Minnesota that said the deer didn't like his green plots that weren't fertilized.

What has been your experiences?

I was planning on just fertizing the areas within bow range of my stand sites and leaving the rest unfertilized.

As always...............thanks!!!!

dbltree

07-13-2009, 07:37 PM

Fertilizer is optional and usually not needed for cereal grains but they do love nitrogen if you want to "sweeten" a few spots.

Using to much N is like fertilizing your lawn...it will grow like mad!

Rapid growth can leave it to tall and unpalatable by the middle of hunting season so use caution before you get carried away.

You can always add some later just before a rain if you feel it's needed...:)

corygnc

07-14-2009, 07:44 AM

Dbltree......What would you use for fertiziler and how much would you use if a guy wanted to "sweeten" up a spot?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

dbltree

07-14-2009, 08:33 AM

Dbltree......What would you use for fertiziler and how much would you use if a guy wanted to "sweeten" up a spot?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

A 100#'s of urea (46-0-0) would be enough to "juice" up your grains....:way:

Blaster

07-15-2009, 08:05 AM

Paul,

We were going to try some BFO this year, but i read that they need to be at least 2in deep. Can i broadcast them and then disc them under?

dbltree

07-16-2009, 05:33 PM

Paul,

We were going to try some BFO this year, but i read that they need to be at least 2in deep. Can i broadcast them and then disc them under?

I assume you are referring to oats?

If so you may want to back up and take a look at my tests done last fall and winter. In side by side tests on both farms, deer absoutely refused to touch the BFO oats but instead devoured the inexpensive Jerry oats.

When it comes to oats, save your money and buy common spring oats...:rolleyes:

Any cereal grains can be broadcasted, lightly tilled or disced in 1-2" deep and then cultipacked to firm soil.

Often people ask me why cereal rye?? Why not wheat? Why not oats?

Rye is just plain a gift from God as far as I'm concerned! :way:

Cereal rye (fall rye grain, winter rye) is higher in protien then wheat and unlike any oats (even BFO) it will last ALL winter!

Besides the important attributes that we look for in attracting deer it is also one of the only plants capable of recycling nitrogen...

That's right...recycle nitrogen!!

When we till under red clover in the fall and plant rye, the rye absorbs the nitrogen but then can re-release it in the spring and adding more red clover and peas to our rye planting just keeps the process going!

Cereal Rye (http://www.animalagteam.msu.edu/LandApplication/ManureandNutrientManagement/CerealRyeManureandLivestocksNewBestFriend/tabid/307/Default.aspx)

A rye cover crop and manure applications are mutually beneficial. Manure nutrients aid in decomposition of the rye, offsetting any potential yield drag, and rye captures and recycles the manure nutrients effectively to the future corn crop, reducing commercial fertilizer needs.

Rye is one of the best scavengers of nitrogen and reduces leaching losses on both sandy soils and tile-drained land. The fast growing, fibrous root system can capture 25 to 100 pounds of soil nitrogen per acre.

Seeding rye in late summer or early fall will allow it to scavenge nitrogen. When organic N (from manure or legumes) is still available. Rye can capture this nitrogen and recycle it to the following season.
The actual amount of nitrogen that is recycled is highly variable. A presidedress soil nitrate test can help determine the amount of nitrogen credit to take for the upcoming corn crop.

Rye should be allowed to grow over the winter to continue taking up N in the spring.

Rye is the hardiest of cereals and can be seeded later in the fall than other cover crops, and it provides top growth and extensive root growth. It will germinate at cold temperatures—as low as 34 degrees F—and it will resume growing at 38 degrees in the spring. This makes it possible to seed rye after corn, sugar beet or bean harvest until the ground freezes.

It is relatively inexpensive to plant, and the seed is readily available or easily grown.

Easy to establish, rye can be aerial seeded in standing corn/silage and before leaf drop in soybean. Rye can be broadcast alone or with dry fertilizers, can be added to manure tanks for slurry seeding or drilled (which provides the most consistent stands).

It outperforms most other crops on infertile, sandy or acidic soil. It is also tolerant of a variety of soil types and grows well on both poorly and well-drained soils.

Rye can recycle potassium from deeper in the soil profile for future crop use.

Rye is effective at suppressing weeds. It competes with winter annuals and inhibits growth of spring weeds. As rye residue decomposes, it releases allelopathic compounds that are harmful to the growth of weeds.

The rapid fall and spring growth can stabilize sandy soil, trap snow and improve infiltration.

Rye is utilized for many cropping systems, including fruits and vegetables, where it can be left in narrow strips to reduce wind erosion.

Rye, and all cover crops, build soil quality over time by adding organic matter. Long-term benefits include improved soil structure, tilth, water infiltration and water-holding capacity

A rye/pea/red clover combination then makes a perfect combination to plant ahead of corn, sugarbeets, milo or summer brassicas.

Cereal rye is a s close to a perfect plant for food plotters as you can get, requiring no fertilizer or lime, capable of growing on dry sandy soils or heavy clay.

Forget wheat...it just cost you money at every turn and has less food value for your deer herd! :)

corygnc

07-16-2009, 06:43 PM

Thanks for the "detailed" information. It's stuff like this that get's me excited about food plots. Better than just buying a bag of highly advertised stuff and not knowing what benefits it could do to the soil.

THANKS AGAIN PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blaster

07-17-2009, 02:07 AM

If you don't have a cultipacker could you use a yard roller to pack the seed?

HannibalBowhunter

07-17-2009, 04:03 AM

SEIowaDeerslayer

07-17-2009, 10:55 AM

What are the consequences of planting field rye too early? I was hoping to get a rye, oat, and field pea mix in the same time I do my brassicas, which is usually the last weekend of July. If planted the last week of July, will rye become rank and unpalatable?

dbltree

07-18-2009, 12:09 AM

I was thinking about overseeding my soybeans with rye and turnips. Anyone have any experience with this? Would it be better to do them together or separate plots? Seeding rates? Best time frame? Thanks in advance!

Both rye and brassices work well overseeded into standing soybeans provided it's done just a few weeks before leaf drop. This is why I prefer early maturing soybeans for this purpose.

Brassicas won't have time to put on much growth is over seeded in late Auguts or early September so they can be seeded together.

Rye can be broadcast at up to 150#'s per acre but if mixing brassicas with it I would go on the light side at 2-4#'s or more if alone.

Attempt to overseed just ahead of a good rain to help inside germination.

What are the consequences of planting field rye too early? I was hoping to get a rye, oat, and field pea mix in the same time I do my brassicas, which is usually the last weekend of July. If planted the last week of July, will rye become rank and unpalatable?

Yes...both rye and oats will become very stemmy and mature by October and deer will not be interested unless it's the only food around for miles!

Now they certainly will eat the peas almost anytime but if you want tender succulant grazing that will attract them all fall, plant brassicas in late July and cereal grains around the Sept. 1st time frame.:)

dbltree

07-21-2009, 02:10 PM

I went to mow some oats and berseem to prepare to plant brassicas...Holy Cats...should've just hired a combine isntead!! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Niceoats.jpg

Doggone things sure were pretty!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Goodoats.jpg

Berseem was doing pretty well but not as good as if I would have clipped the oats earlier

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/7-20berseemnOats.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Oatsandberseem1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/SDC12077.jpg

The place was full of deer beds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Bed.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerbed.jpg

and it's hard to see in this pic but most had little fawn beds a few fet from the larger beds

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Fawnbed.jpg

I had one bag of just common oats and all the rest were Jerry oats and really didn't expect much difference but it was really quite huge! The odd bag planted area was full of weeds and you can see in this pic the strip not mowed yet to the left of the jerry oats which appear brighter and lighter in color and have few weeds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Commonleftjerryright.jpg

Oats can provide several tons of dry matter that can be tilled back into the soil and the straw helps loosen and aerate the soil

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Oatberseemmix7-20.jpg

I would prefer to use a heavy disc or a plow to till it all under as is but I need to use my tiller only on this patch and they are just to heavy to till under without chopping them up first.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Path.jpg

Part of this planting was a nurse crop for white clover and you can just the clovers peeking thru the chopped straw

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cloverpeekingthru.jpg

A portion of this planting will be planted in late August to a rye/oat/pea mix and I would have preferred to just leave the oats standing and make use of the "free seed" but some places weeds we're starting to pop up and I didn't want them to got to seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/SDC12057.jpg

Another field was pretty clean so we'l leave that one standing and mow the oats ahead of planting. Doing so will shatter the oats onto the ground where we can add rye and peas after tilling it under.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WestField.jpg

These fields were old pastures and somewhat infertile soil suffering from years of being "used and abused" as pasture, it needs lime as soon as we can get it put on but as one can see...didn't phase the oats any!

Spring plantings of oats and berseem are a way to suffacate weeds, start fixing nitrogen and add tons of organic matter to the soil when tilled in. We use buckwheat in the same manner but no nitrogen is produced giving an edge to the berseem in this case... ;)

ayr_aca_cs

07-31-2009, 06:06 AM

looking at planting some oats and clover in the bare spots of my white clover plot, what would be the best time to plant this? and should i put fert down along with the seed?

dbltree

08-01-2009, 05:03 AM

looking at planting some oats and clover in the bare spots of my white clover plot, what would be the best time to plant this? and should i put fert down along with the seed?

You can plant that combination anytime now but if you would like the oats to be attractive during the early hunting season, wait til the end of August.

It wouldn't hurt to at some low N fertilizer suchh as 6-24-24 or 8-36-36 or some such before planting. :)

HannibalBowhunter

08-05-2009, 12:22 PM

dbltree

08-06-2009, 12:29 AM

I had a question about cereal grain combos. If I planted cereal rye and white clover this fall(overseeded into standing soybeans), would that establish a nice clover plot for the next few years? Any disadvantages to this combo. I have limited use of equipment, so I was thinking of a way to get a perennial plot established quickly. Wonderful threads on here. Thanks in advance!

You will end up with pure white clover because the winter rye is of course and annual like wheat. White clover is easy to manage with a few summer clippings but has the disavantage of not being attractive once cold weather hits hard.

This is why I prefer to have plots divided into sections that include clover, brassicas and fall grains, each in seperate strips. Some folks don't have equipment or time to plant annuals every year and in those cases white clover may be the best option.

I would over seed the rye into the standing soybeans and sometimes you can do the same with clover if we get heavy rains so it's worth a try. You may want to also frost seed some additional clover seed into that stand this winter in Feb/March to insure a viable stand.

Clip the rye off next spring and you should be good to go...:way:

HannibalBowhunter

08-12-2009, 07:59 AM

dbltree

08-12-2009, 02:49 PM

I have another question. I am planning to overseed rye into standing soybeans this September. Do you think that this will be enough of an attractant for a November food source? I have noticed that you plant combos with your rye (oats, AWP, etc). I don't really know if I have other options. Thanks.

if your going to have a combination of standing soybeans and winter rye...gosh i think you oughta be set! ;)

The combo I plant is a stand alone tilled/planted plot but certainly not gonna beat standing soybeans. I just have to many deer to grow soys, they murder before the end of summer let alone last till hunting season.

You should be good to go but let us know how you like that combo and take some pics this fall to share with us as well...:way:

HannibalBowhunter

08-12-2009, 08:01 PM

Actually my soybeans will probably be harvested in late October. That was why I had concern about a November food source. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks.

dbltree

08-12-2009, 09:55 PM

Actually my soybeans will probably be harvested in late October. That was why I had concern about a November food source. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks.

Well the winter rye will still be there of course but short of tilling up a seperate plot there isn't too much else you can do with it.

Brassicas can also be over seeded into standing soys just before leaf drop but they won't have time to get much growth and a combine running over them may be a little hard on them to...;)

HannibalBowhunter

08-14-2009, 10:44 AM

Can you overseed/broadcast oats or do they have to be tilled in?

dbltree

08-14-2009, 01:06 PM

Can you overseed/broadcast oats or do they have to be tilled in?

It is possible but they just don't seem to germinate as easily as winter rye...worth a try ins some situations if soil is bare and heavy rains are forecast. If you give it a try let us know how it works out...;)

Sligh1

08-14-2009, 01:50 PM

dbltree

08-14-2009, 09:27 PM

I put in a bunch of acres of fast maturing soybeans. The bigger plots look AMAZING. They still look like they would choke out ANY weed that dares pop up in them, could be this way for a while (even though I planted them early). I have to broadcast winter rye when they can get some sunlight. Any time frame you feel is TOO LATE to get the annual rye seed in there?

We can broadcast all the way up to the first of November an unless we have unually cold weather it will germinate, however it won't get you much growth.

I would wait until the leaves are starting to turn, hopefully around the first of September and then leaves should start dropping about the time the rye needs sunlight.

I have this posted at the beginning of this thread but is shows how cold it can be and still germinate!

A rye cover crop and manure applications are mutually beneficial. Manure nutrients aid in decomposition of the rye, offsetting any potential yield drag, and rye captures and recycles the manure nutrients effectively to the future corn crop, reducing commercial fertilizer needs.

Rye is one of the best scavengers of nitrogen and reduces leaching losses on both sandy soils and tile-drained land. The fast growing, fibrous root system can capture 25 to 100 pounds of soil nitrogen per acre. Seeding rye in late summer or early fall will allow it to scavenge nitrogen. When organic N (from manure or legumes) is still available. Rye can capture this nitrogen and recycle it to the following season. The actual amount of nitrogen that is recycled is highly variable. A presidedress soil nitrate test can help determine the amount of nitrogen credit to take for the upcoming corn crop.

Rye should be allowed to grow over the winter to continue taking up N in the spring.

Rye is the hardiest of cereals and can be seeded later in the fall than other cover crops, and it provides top growth and extensive root growth. It will germinate at cold temperatures—as low as 34 degrees F—and it will resume growing at 38 degrees in the spring. This makes it possible to seed rye after corn, sugar beet or bean harvest until the ground freezes.

It is relatively inexpensive to plant, and the seed is readily available or easily grown.

Easy to establish, rye can be aerial seeded in standing corn/silage and before leaf drop in soybean. Rye can be broadcast alone or with dry fertilizers, can be added to manure tanks for slurry seeding or drilled (which provides the most consistent stands).
It outperforms most other crops on infertile, sandy or acidic soil. It is also tolerant of a variety of soil types and grows well on both poorly and well-drained soils.

Rye can recycle potassium from deeper in the soil profile for future crop use.

Rye is effective at suppressing weeds. It competes with winter annuals and inhibits growth of spring weeds. As rye residue decomposes, it releases allelopathic compounds that are harmful to the growth of weeds.
The rapid fall and spring growth can stabilize sandy soil, trap snow and improve infiltration.

Rye is utilized for many cropping systems, including fruits and vegetables, where it can be left in narrow strips to reduce wind erosion.

Rye, and all cover crops, build soil quality over time by adding organic matter. Long-term benefits include improved soil structure, tilth, water infiltration and water-holding capacity.

dbltree

08-15-2009, 12:20 PM

Just a reminder from last falls oat tests (in case you missed it) I trialed BFO oats against common Jerry spring oats and found that deer would absoultely NOT touch the BFO!

On the other hand they pounded the Jerry oats that were less then 1/2 the price of the VERY expensive BFO!

These are BFO oats...not a blade touched!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/BFOnotGrazed.jpg

These are Jerry oats planted literally side by side on two different farms!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/JerryHeavyGrazing.jpg

Almost any oats will give you better far less expensive results then BFO and if you page back thru this thread you can see all the results of my testing and trials.

Winter rye is an even better option because it will stay green all winter but I often mix winter rye and spring oats along with peas.

I would also suggest considering forage peas versus Austrian Winter Peas as they are 1/2 the price but just as attractive. I'm going to plant both side by side to compare but so far they are loving my forage (field) peas!

I usually don't fertilize grains in the fall but if you have poor soil or want to give them a boost, almost any fertilizer blend will do with urea (46-0-0) being the most apt to keep them green and lush...:way:

risto2351

08-26-2009, 01:39 PM

Well I started my rye, oats, AWP peas, and clover plots this past weekend.
Had a glitch in getting my seed but will get them planted this weekend.

Started here about two months ago and nuked the area twice. The grass was about waist deep to start with.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC08707.jpgi

Now it looks like this:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC08922.jpg

This was a brassicas plot last fall and I frost seeded it this past spring into white clover. First picture was four weeks ago.
Second when I mowed it a couple of weeks ago.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC07582.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC08909.jpg

Now it looks like this:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj268/risto2351/DSC08921.jpg

After they get planted it is time to get rid of a few freeloaders. :)

bowhuntr311

08-26-2009, 01:53 PM

Risto, Both of those plots are going to be Rye/Oats/AWP mix plots?

risto2351

08-26-2009, 02:09 PM

You are correct. I will also put in some clover for next spring and plant to brassicas next fall.

dbltree

08-26-2009, 03:06 PM

risto2351

08-27-2009, 09:46 AM

Looks like the white clover did great frostseeded into the brassicas!

Sometimes the allelopathic chemicals in the dead brassicas can keep clover from germinating but obviously it didn't phase that clover!

You have a great program with well thought out crop rotations and cover crops that anyone could do well to copy...:way:

Paul,
A lot of people think I am crazy for cutting down all that green clover. :D

As far as the allelopathis chemicals I see that more in my rye not letting some of my brassicas grow if that is possible.

A big thanks to you Paul. None of this could of been grown or thought out without your help. :way:

dbltree

08-27-2009, 08:58 PM

A lot of people think I am crazy for cutting down all that green clover.

Well...$25 worth of clover seed to = $60-80 worth of nitrogen seems like a no brainer to me...;):D

I posted this in the brassica thread but some of you may have intensive grazing or feel that your cereal grains need a boost after planting so I wanted to post some options here as well.

Generally I prefer to fertilize brassicas heavily and frost seed or spring plant a plow down clover and then fall plant cereal grains. The N levels should be high enough (from the plowing down the clover) and P&K levels brought up to snuff when the brassics were planted, so that the grains would generally not need any additional fertilizer.

For those not yet on a crop rotation of legumes, brassicas and cereal grains then you may need to fertilize your cereal grains at planting and if grazing is heavy, top dress some additonal N after the winter rye is 2-3 weeks old.

This information wil help you better understand your options and the problems that go along with trying to top dress nitrogen versus tillig it in. Remember also that rye is a nitrogen scavenger and can pull postassium fro deep in the soil and recyle both for use by the next crop...man you can't beat that with a stick! :way:

The following is taken from this link

The Fertilizer Institute (http://www.tfi.org/factsandstats/fertilizer.cfm)

Urea (46-0-0) — A solid nitrogen product typically applied in granular form. It can be combined with ammonium nitrate and dissolved in water to make liquid nitrogen fertilizer known as urea ammonium nitrate or UAN solution.

Ammonium nitrate (34-0-0) — Another solid nitrogen product typically applied in granular form is valued for its use on pasture lands and specialty crops such as citrus.

Ammonium sulfate (21-0-0) — A solid product that is largely a byproduct of coke ovens, where sulfuric acid is used to remove ammonia evolved from the coal.

All forms of N can cause some minor leaf burning and this will be worse if applied when leaves ar wet, so wait till dew has dried before applying.

Top dress nitrogen onto fall cereal grains 2-4 weeks after emergence but be aware that doing so may cause rye, wheat or oats to grow rapidly, become stemmy and unpalatable making it counterproductive.

Determining your needs sometimes requires some trial and error and deciding if the time and money to add more fertilizer is worth the effort or perhaps and absoulte must.

Urea (46-0-0) is the most commonly available but it is inportant to apply it ahead of a minimum of a 1/2" rain

This link will explain more about using urea

Fertilizer Urea (http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC0636.html)

Urea Losses to the Air

Urea breakdown begins as soon as it is applied to the soil. If the soil is totally dry, no reaction happens. But with the enzyme urease, plus any small amount of soil moisture, urea normally hydrolizes and converts to ammonium and carbon dioxide.

This can occur in 2 to 4 days and happens quicker on high pH soils. Unless it rains, urea must be incorporated during this time to avoid ammonia loss. Losses might be quite low in the spring if the soil temperature is cold.

Urea fertilizer can be coated with certain materials, such as sulfur, to reduce the rate at which the nitrogen becomes available to plants. Under certain conditions these slow-release materials result in more efficient use by growing plants. Urea in a slow-release form is popular for use on golf courses, parks, and other special lawn situations.

If you can find urea treated with urease inhibitor then rain fall will ne of less importance and Agrotain makes such a product:

Where Agrotain fits (http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/ag/story/data/1205266920423.xml)

Agrotain International (http://www.agrotain.com/) is the world’s largest producer of StabilizedNitrogen™ fertilizers.

Agrotain is both a company name and a product name. Agrotain International makes three ag products that protect urea fertilizer from loss.

Agrotain is a liquid urease inhibitor that can be impregnated onto dry urea or tank mixed with liquid fertilizer that contains urea such as urea-ammonium nitrate (UAN). The active ingredient is N-(n-butyl) thiophosphoric triamide (NBPT).

Agrotain Plus is a dry concentrate nitrogen stabilizer. It contains the urease inhibitor NBPT and dicyandiamide, a nitrogen stabilizer. When added to UAN, it minimizes volatilization, denitrification, and leaching of nitrogen for the urea portion of UAN.

Ammonium nitrate (34-0-0)

AN is a much more stable form of nitrogen in regards to volatilization losses, however it is difficult to purchase because of it's use in making bombs and liability issues for fertilizer dealers. If it is available it is an excellent albeit more expensive source of N for top dressing.

Nitrogen Sources (http://lancaster.unl.edu/ag/factsheets/288.htm)

Another popular form of dry nitrogen fertilizer is ammonium-nitrate (NH4-NO3). Ammonium-nitrate is 34% nitrogen, by weight. It is produced by reacting anhydrous ammonia (NH3) with nitric acid (HNO3). When dissolved in water, the ammonium (NH4+) and nitrate (NO3_) fractions disassociate. The nitrate fraction remains dissolved in the soil water.

The ammonium fraction becomes bound to negatively charged soil particles. Both the ammonium and nitrate fractions are available for direct plant uptake and neither form is subject to appreciable volatilization losses. The volatilization losses from surface applied ammonium nitrate are therefore usually quite small, especially compared to urea-based fertilizers.

There are safer versions of AN being developed so perhaps it will once again be more readily available.

Honeywell Develops Safer Ammonium Nitrate-Based Fertilizer (http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/2643438)

Ammonium sulfate (21-0-0)

Advantages = Minimal leaching loss, easy to use, safe to handle and sulfur boost if needed.

Disadvantages = Delayed availability during nitrification and has a high loss potential on calcareous soils if it is not incorporated into the soil.

Ammonium sulfate is often one of the most expensive forms of N but when compared to the risk of applying urea and ending up with no rain, it's worth the cost!

Some FAQ's about AS

Ammonium Sulfate & Soil pH: Fact Vs. Fiction (http://www.honeywell.com/sites/servlet/com.merx.npoint.servlets.DocumentServlet?docid=DF2 EC0F71-4BAB-A40A-9CE8-8DAD70846CD1)

NITROGEN FERTILIZER: What Should I Use (http://forages.tamu.edu/PDF/scs2002-09.pdf)

Purchasing Nutrients for Hay and Forage Crops (http://ohioline.osu.edu/anr-fact/0007.html)

Compare N sources (http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~prec/soil/Nmanage.htm)

Fertilizer and Lime materials (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/fg/fg52-e.pdf)

I really urge everyone to consider a crop rotation that includes legumes that can replace all or at least a large portion of your N needs, lowering your costs and time spent adding it. :)

HannibalBowhunter

08-29-2009, 02:53 PM

I am getting ready to try my first rye plot by overseeding some soybeans here in a week or two. I am really excited and am trying to plan time afield. My question is: I have an over-the-shoulder hand spreader that holds about 20lbs. Ballpark - How long is it going to take me to spread 5oo lbs. of rye seed? Thanks in advance.

dbltree

08-30-2009, 08:53 AM

It's going to take you a few minutes but I have done up to 7 acres that way! Afterwords I realized the shoulder strap had cut into the top of mu shoulder and it took weeks to heal.

You might consider a little extra shoulder padding to do that much. Great exercise and it's not a bad way to spend some time afield on a cool fall day :way:

corygnc

09-03-2009, 09:28 PM

Dbltree,

Been following all your recommendations for brassica's and grains. I will post pics of brassica's this next week. They look awesome. Thanks Very Much!

I finished my rye, wheat, oats and AWP's mix and clover this past Monday. I have some extra rye seed. What if I broadcasted the seed with my 4 wheeler spreader around the 15th (try to time a rain)?

Was thinking I might have different growths of rye. Some younger and some more mature to give deer a variety.

Dumb or good idea?

Again, thanks very much for everything!

Cory

HannibalBowhunter

09-04-2009, 07:58 AM

I am overseeding my soybeans with rye in mid-September. Would it be better to broadcast clover at the same time or wait and frost seed in Spring? I don't want to throw away seed and was wondering if mid-September will give the clover enough time to establish itself versus dealing with the allelopathic nature of the rye in Spring against me. Thanks again.

dbltree

09-05-2009, 02:02 PM

What if I broadcasted the seed with my 4 wheeler spreader around the 15th (try to time a rain)?

I think that's a great idea! let us know how it does but planting some later can certainly make for attractive forage. ;)

I am overseeding my soybeans with rye in mid-September. Would it be better to broadcast clover at the same time or wait and frost seed in Spring? I don't want to throw away seed and was wondering if mid-September will give the clover enough time to establish itself versus dealing with the allelopathic nature of the rye in Spring against me. Thanks again.

I have never had a problem frost seeding into rye but starting some now could work if we get rains. You might give it a try but if we get earlly cold weather then you might have to add some more via frost seeding.:)

dbltree

09-08-2009, 03:20 PM

I know some folks still have a hard time with the concept of tilling down perfectly good clover solely for the purpose of using it as "green manure" to add organic matter and nitrogen to the soil, but that's exactly what we need to do. Adding white or red clover right now to your fall cereal grain planting is like depositing money in the bank and next summer you'll reap the rewards.

Clover seed should only run $20-30 an acre yet is capable of producing 3-4 times that in nitrogen that is completely natural and requires not a stitch of fossil fuels to make.

The other day I turned under some beautiful Alice White clover planted almost exactly a year ago with my winter rye, oats and peas. Part of the plot was in red and the other in white clover only because I had some left over seed to use up.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/SDC12565.jpg

I had no-tilled soybeans into the plot this spring but deer never let them get over a few inches high and after several applications of glyphosate that never phased the clovers, I left it alone. Foxtail exploded in the areas without clover and I just disced it all under.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/Discingdownbeans.jpg

After discing it up good I went over it with my tiller as well but plowing to turn it under is also a good option. When using smaller equipment, mowing just prior to tilling will make the process easier.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilledwhiteclover.jpg

The chopped up clover plants can add up to 2 tons of organic matter to the soil

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Clovercompost.jpg

and the roots and plant parts will release nitrogen slowly as the plant decomposes, somewhere between 130-200 units of N will over time become available to the next crops.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cloverroots.jpg

Regardless if you have light sandy soils or heavy clay soils, the addition of the clover plants to the soil will significantly improve soil quality and more so each time it's tilled under.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Cloverorganicmatter.jpg

My tiller tends to drag some plant material back to the surface but this causes no harm and serves as a surface mulch to hold soil and moisture

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Mulchontop.jpg

I find fall planted clovers to be the easiest to till under and they will provide the most nitrogen compared to spring planted clover plowdowns. Still spring planted berseem clover and oats will also make a significant difference

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/7-20berseemnOats.jpg

I leave the oats and berseem until just before my fall planting, then I mowed these a week before hand although plowing them under would be best.

Heavy rains germinated the oats that had been shattered all over the ground and I then tilled under the lush green carpet that added even more organic matter to the soil.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WestOatfield.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Westfield1.jpg

In some cases I use buckwheat, usually where it will be followed by clover or alfalfa and additional nitrogen is not required

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/TillingBuckwheat.jpg

Many plotters have adapted to the idea that clover is expensive and should only be thought of as a food plot in itself but nothing could be further from the truth.

Clover seed is readily available for $2-5 a pound depending on if red or white and when planted in the fall will indeed provide a lush source of high protein spring and summer feed for deer for less then 30 bucks an acre.

Clover Seed Source (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

That same clover when planted in conjunction with winter rye in the fall will then help suffocate weeds further held back by the allelopathic chemicals in the rye.

Winter rye and clover then go together like hand in glove and used over time in a crop rotation with brassicas (or corn, milo or other high nitrogen using crops) will significantly lower both herbicide and fertilizer requirements, build soil quality and provide a combination of high quality, high protein feed that will hold whitetails on your property... ;)

letemgrow

09-08-2009, 03:44 PM

Great stuff Paul!! Keep up the good work!! :)

dbltree

09-10-2009, 11:25 AM

I planted 3 different types of peas to compare for fall forage with winter cereals. Austrian Winter Peas are twice as much as forage/field peas and I believe deer will "devour" them all equally...but we'll find out.

4010 field peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Peas/4010Peas-1.jpg

LC 6040 forage peas (from nannyslayer)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Peas/LC6040peas-1.jpg

Austrian Winter Peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Peas/AustrianWinterPeas.jpg

I took the time to sow each by istelf before sowing the mixed grains (winter rye, triticale and oats)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Peas/Peaseed-1.jpg

I sowed mostly winter rye and oats but did plant one bag of winter triticale (cross between wheat and rye) for comparison

Winter rye
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Winterrye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WinterRyeseed.jpg

Winter Tricticale

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WinterTriticale.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WinterTirticalseed.jpg

I normally avoid using expensive fertilizers on fall grains because they don't need it and it often causes them to grow too fast, making them unpalatable and stemmy by hunting season.

If one is going to add urea then plant the cereals in mid to late September so the lush growth will be attractive in October and cool weather will slow it's growth before it gets too tall.

Often some advocate using nitrogen to "sweeten" crops but in reality the same deer are going to feed there, sweet or otherwise. Adding nitrogen is unlikely to draw deer from parts unknown or encourage the "buck of a lifetime" to feed there.

There are too many other components in a good habitat program that influence deer such as safe cover and bedding areas close to attractive food sources.

Nitrogen can be useful in some situations so this fall seems like a good time to test various rates and results of both tilled in urea and top dressing it later in the fall.

I spread 200#'s, 100#'s and zero of 46-0-0 urea on one field so we can see what if any advantages or disadvantages result.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/urea.jpg

We'll see what this field looks like as fall progresses and how deer utilize the different food sources and what if any difference results from using nitrogen.:)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Justplanted.jpg

risto2351

09-11-2009, 09:21 AM

Skully

09-11-2009, 09:56 AM

Well going on two weeks of no rain since I put my rye, oats, peas and clover in.
Hope we get some soon. No growth except a few clover after 7 days.
Come on rain.

Was it Skully that did the raindance last time?

It may have been me but I need to pour some concrete this weekend so no rain dance until Sunday!!! :grin:

One note I wanted to add was a little tip for anyone who is thinking of planting Milo or grain sorghum next year. I planted mine WAY too thick! It is hard to judge with a broadcast spreader and I always tend to "over-seed" a little for safe measure but in this case it was a mistake. My old clay knob was in CRP before planting and could have used a shot of nitrogen but I went the cheap route and now my milo plot is about half the height it should be and is very yellow from being under nourished. It is still a thick mess and I'm sure wildlife will use it but I learn something new every time I play farmer. Next time I will use a drill! :)

dbltree

09-11-2009, 11:43 AM

could have used a shot of nitrogen

Remember to start using a crop rotation that uses clover before high nitrogen users like brassicas, corn or milo to lower nitrogen inputs. ;)

This combination planted this fall will help with a portion of you nitrogen needs next year.

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas 20-40#'s per acre (4010 or 6040 field peas will work fine for 1/2 the price)
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre
Oilseed Radish 5#'s per acre

The good thing about milo is that it can be planted late which allows more time for the red clover to fix more nitrogen. Hairy vetch will also work to add nitrogen and is available from Welter Seed as well.

I haven't had a drop of rain either...:(

risto2351

09-11-2009, 12:32 PM

PAul,
I asssume it nothing has germinated yet that it will be okay.

Unless the turkeys eat it all.

dbltree

09-11-2009, 04:23 PM

PAul,
I asssume it nothing has germinated yet that it will be okay.

Unless the turkeys eat it all.

Sure...the seed will just lay there waiting for moisture but don't assume it hasn't germinated! We had plenty of subsurface moisture so seeds planted in a good seedbed and covered/packed properly are still likely to germinate anytime now.

A 1/2" of rain would certainly speed up the process however....;)

dbltree

09-12-2009, 10:21 AM

Most of us haven't had a rain since planting our cereal grains and peas which gives cause for concern and a good time to bring up the questions "what is the proper planting depth for cereals??"

While I don't advocate planting wheat for deer and food plot rotations, wheat is of course the most commonly grown cereal grain in the world and so a great deal of study has been done on proper planting rates and depths for optimum yields.

This link gives one some basic data to use when planting any cereal grains:

Small Grain Seeding Rates (http://www.smallgrains.ncsu.edu/Guide/Chapter6.html)

The gist of it is answered here:

reduce the chances of seedling emergence if the seeds are placed too deep. Conversely, a shallow planting can result in uneven germination due to dry soil.

Small grainseeds should be planted 1 to 1.5 inches deep when soil moisture levels are adequate, and slightly deeper, if moisture is deﬁcient.

Oats should be planted at 2 bushels per acre, and rye at 1 to 1.5 bushels per acre. The seeding rate should be increased by 15 percent for every 2 weeks planting is delayed.

Lightly tilling or discing in broadcast grains before cultipacking insures a proper planting depth (note I said "light"...;) )

Peas can be even deeper at 1 1/2 to 3 inches deep.

Winter rye works great to broadcast on bare ground BUT we need rain to germinate the seed and followup rains to insure roots will grow deep enough to survive dry spells...:)

dbltree

09-16-2009, 05:07 AM

I checked the "last planted first" to show kind of a worst case scenario and what might be expected. I tilled these small plots just to stir them up a little and left them because they were still a little wet at the time.

My intentions were to come back, re-till. plant, lightly till the larger seeds in and then sow the small seeds. Best layed plans however often go awry and after my tiller got in an argument with some stumps and...lost, I had only enough time to sow seeds in these roughly tilled but now dry plots and just packed them.

This means that some of the larger seeds didn't cover well, especially the peas which of course are no where deep enough and we have not had a drop of rain in over two weeks and certainly none since seeding.

Seeds germinated in the areas with a little moisture because they were at least pressed into the soil but some drier spots have yet to come up and may not until we get rain, something that is still at least a week away.

Peas should be 1-3" deep but many of course did not covered such as this pic shows

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Uncoveredpea.jpg

Any seed that did cover germinated and is growing despite the lack of rain

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Peas9-14-09.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/AWP9-14-09.jpg

This plot was lower and had more moisture and it's greening up nicely

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Oatsnrye9-14-09patch.jpg

while this one only yards away but perhaps a foot higher is just starting to green up

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Oatsnpeasduringdryspell.jpg

You can pick out the rye amonsgst the oats by the reddish color of the rye near it's base

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Oatsnrye9-14-09.jpg

The Groundhog Forage Radish are coming up nicely and appear to need little moisture to germinate

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/GroundhogRadish9-14-09.jpg

The red clover also germinating easily even in the drier areas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/RedClover9-14-09.jpg

The rye and oats appear small right now but will grow rapidly over the next few weeks

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeoatradisgcloverpeamix9-14-09.jpg

and already show evidence of grazing at less then 2 weeks after planting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Grazedoats.jpg

I share these pics to show that tilling larger seeds in can be important especially when we get an unexpected dry spell as it gets seeds down to subsurface moisture.

That even with out rains, seeds pressed into moist soils will still quickly germinate, that even grains planted as late as Oct in many midwest areas will still have time to provide a fall attractant.

I still have 200#'s or winter rye seed to broadcast into already standing crops but I'm waiting to do so ahead of a rain. Frosts have no effect on winter rye and it will germinate and grow even in the mid 30's so don't be afraid to try some late seedings if weather or time has held you up....;)

corygnc

09-16-2009, 11:18 AM

http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/files/5780-hpim1610.jpg

Here is Rye, Wheat, Oats, AWP and Red Clover Mix that I got in the last week in August.

Luckily had close to half inch of rain couple days after I got it in.

Used a drill that a farmer gave me and it worked good. Had it on the highest setting and only got about 88 lbs. of seed per acre. Next year I will zig zag the drill to get more seed on.

I then cultipacked after the drill and broadcasted red clover over the top and cultipacked again.

Red clover is coming up good also!

All the thanks goes out to Dbltree for all my food plots this year. Did about 10 acres of them and for the first year of doing food plots it was all Dbltree's advice and I couldn't be happier!

Thanks!
Cory

dbltree

09-16-2009, 12:10 PM

Luckily had close to half inch of rain couple days after I got it in.

You should've bought lotto tickey Cory...you must be one of the very few who got rained on!

Plost look great!! Keep us posted this fall!:way:

LoessHillsArcher

09-16-2009, 01:34 PM

We got some rain out west!! That looks GREAT Cory!!

dbltree

09-18-2009, 05:20 AM

Many landowners don't know that winter rye is commonly broadcast into standing crops on a large scale by farmers with livestock, usually by airplane around the first of September.

They know that with any rain at all the rye will germinate on the bare soils and grow quickly, providing a high quality source of all winter grazing, high in crude protein and digestable nutrients as well as in yield of dry matter.

So as a habitat manager why wouldn't we take advantage of this and do the same thing? Soybeans are the easist to overseed with a hand seeder or a 3 pt spreader on a tractor but anything from thin brassicas to corn will work to over seed winter rye into.

The moment soybeans start to turn yellow is the time to broadcast rye and they will be dropping leaves within two weeks and allowing sunlight to the newly germinated rye.

A week earlier one could have been broadcasting rye into these beans

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Soybeans/Soybeans9-15-09.jpg

Closer inspection shows sunlight is already reaching the ground in these beans

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Soybeans/Soybeansatleafdrop.jpg

In normal years here in Iowa soybeans would be read to harvest by now but a very wet spring delayed harvest and many are still green and fully canopied.

I would point out here that for midwest and northern areas, this is the reason I prefer early maturing soybeans versus forage or late maturing soys.

I want beans to mature as early as possible so that rye and brassicas can be over seeded into them. The dried beans and the green rye and brassicas then provide an unbeatable combination that is capable of attracting deer literally all winter.

Late maturing beans such as forage beans stay green right up until frost at which point they become worthless right in the middle of hunting season and the late canopy makes it impossible to overseed rye into the stand.

Everyone has different needs and goals so this is something a landowner would need to decide for themselves.

Corn is more difficult to hand seed into because of it's height but it's still feasable and early maturing corn is already drying down here in mid September.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Soybeans/9-15-09corn.jpg

Again, the combination of standing corn and green rye growing in it would be extremely attractive and almost impossible to find something better.

I cannot grow either corn or soybeans in my plots and our commercially grown crops get chisel plowed but I'm going to try milo planted in wide rows and over seeding that wit rye this next year.

Winter rye germinates better then any other cereal grain when broadcast on bare ground but obviously moisture is needed. We are approcahing 3 weeks without rain here in SE Iowa so I have seed just waiting to broadcast into some decimated brassicas just before a rain when it eventually comes.

Broadcast winter rye at 150#'s per acre (rates are optional) because birds and rodents will get some before it germinates. The winter rye will scavenge nitrogen left from the current crops and recycle it the next spring not to mention helping to prevent the next weed crop from germinating and pulling potassium up from the subsoil also making that available for the next crop.

Take advantage of all the wonderful attributes of winter rye to not only attract deer and improve your soils but double the use of each acre you plant to soys and corn...:)

dbltree

09-20-2009, 07:21 AM

We have been nearly three weeks without rain but a cold front will be moving across much of the midwest from Sunday through most of next week as it stalls out over the heartland.

This gives us two much needed oppurtunities...:rolleyes:

1) To overseed winter rye into standing, soybeans, corn or heavily grazed brassicas right before a rain that will insure germination and quick growth.

2) This is perfect timing to topdress nitrogen if you have any fall crops that need it. If you tilled in plenty of N at planting, it's doubtful that you will need aditional N. Now is the time however to watch the weather closely and apply urea as close as possible to rainfall that hopefully exceed a 1/2" to push nitrogen into the soil.

Winter rye is amazing in that it is one of the most drought resistant cereals and rye can grow on almost ANY soils from sand to clay with no lime or fertilizer. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't improve your soils by soil testing and applying the appropriate ammendments but it does mean that if you have a last minute plot you want to stir up and plant something...winter rye is the best bet!

Here are some pics of my rye and peas at 2 weeks despite not having a drop of rain...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Winterryeoatspeasandclover.jpg

I lightly tilled in the larger seeds (winter rye, common oats, peas), cultipacked, sowed red clover and Groundhog Forage radish and re-cultipacked.

Because I put the larger seeds in the moisture zone of the soil, they are growing just fine even without rain.

I sowed two strips heavily and upped peas to nearly 100#'s per acre due to expected heavy deer traffic. I also added 150#'s of urea in these two test strips.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/newpeanryegrowth.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeinshade.jpg

The two strips are in a tree planting, one with winter rye and Austrian Winter peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Thickryenpeas.jpg

and the other with Winter Triticale and 4010 Field/forage peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryenpeas9-17.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/4010peasinwinterrye9-17.jpg

I'm headed out today to overseed some winter rye into heavily grazed brassicas to take advantage of the upcoming possiblity of rain. I'll continue to share progress and different scenarios that plotters face using a wide array of equipment or lak thereof...:)

dbltree

09-21-2009, 05:29 PM

Most everyone here on IW already is aware that there are differences between field peas and AWP's from following the Field Pea thread but I just want to re-visit the subject here as well.

What is the difference between Austrian Winter Peas and Field/Forage Peas??

Field Pea (Pisum sativum L.), a native of Southwest Asia, was among the first crops cultivated by man. Wild field pea can still be found in Afghanistan, Iran and Ethiopia

Austrian Winter Pea (Pisum sativum spp arvense) is a fall-seeded pea introduced from Austria to the Pacific Northwest in the 1930s.

In reality I have found very little difference with the possible exception of winterhardiness in the AWP's, however I have found that to be a moot point because rarely do deer allow them to survive with or without cold weather.

Both have purple flowers and side by side it is impossible to tell them apart

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Peas/Fieldpeaflowering8-21.jpg

These are 4010 field peas at $22 a bag

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/4010peasinrye.jpg

these are Austrian Winter peas at $45 a bag

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/newpeanryegrowth.jpg

Both planted the same day only feet apart with a mix of winter rye and oats, neither have had a drop of rain in 3 weeks now but seem no worse for wear.

Will one attract better, longer, differently then the other...time will tell...;)

dbltree

09-22-2009, 09:14 PM

I've posted plenty of pics of rye and peas that have been either tilled in and then cultipacked or at least packed to cover.

What happens if you don't have a means of "packing"??

On one farm I had no choice but to till in the rye and peas and then spread the clover and forage radish seed on top and hope it rained.

After 3 weeks we finally got a decent rain today but these pics are from last week before the rain and the rye and peas come up just fine.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Westfield-1.jpg

What doesn't germinate are the small seeds laying on top although generally they will just lay there until rain settles the soil around the seed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Peasnrye.jpg

The peas like deeper planting depths so despite not having the soil firmed over them they came up fairly well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Sproutingpeasnorain.jpg

We'll check on these next week and see if the small seeds are coming up and compare growth with those that germinated quickly thanks to a cultipacker and a firm seedbed.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Unpackedpeasandrye.jpg

We'll also see if we can see the effects of adding nitrogen now that we have had rain and if overseeded rye seed has germinated on bare ground...;)

dbltree

09-29-2009, 04:45 AM

Winter Rye is just so versatile and easy to work with and it goes with somethings like peanut butter and jelly!

Establishing clover with winter rye is the IMO the absolute easiest and "bestest" :D way to not have to fight with weeds all summer! The rye acts as a nurse crop and then also helps supress weeds the following spring, even after being clipped since th allelopathic chemicals continue to exist in the root systems.

The fall established clover will come on like gang busters in very early spring further suppressing weeds that would otherwise explode to life in a spring planting.

I sow 6#'s of white clover if I plan to leave the plot in clover long term or 12#'s or red clover if I plan to till down the plot for brassicas or another rye plot.

White clover will provide 25% CP and 80% TDN starting first thing in the spring and lasting until freezing fall weather...all for $30 an acre for seed. That translates to $6 a year if you maintain the stand for 5 years and purchase seed from a source such as Welter seed.

For most plotters white clover is very easy to maintain and nearly impossible for deer to decimate like they can with corn, soybeans, beets and brassicas. The drawback is that for colder areas like Iowa clovers are not suitable for late season attraction, and it is for that reason I plant brassicas, winter rye and peas or in larger fields, corn, beans and milo.

When I plant red clover it also provides 20% CP and 70% TDN all spring and summer until I till it under an take advantage of 130-200#'s of N fixed while growing and adding 2.5 tons of dry matter to my soils.

These are very very inexpensive ways/means of providing top quality, high yielding forage while also using less herbicide and expensive nitrogen fertilizers.

This is test plot in which 4 different white clovers are being tested on my farm, planted Sept 2 with winter rye that we'll follow thru into spring and see how they do.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Clovertestplots.jpg

This is Alice white clover established in Sept 2008 with winter rye a year later...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Alicewhitecloveron9-17.jpg

This is red clover (established the fall before with rye) in early summer after spraying the rye with glyphosate after it had already matured...didn't even phase the clover!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/RedClovernokill.jpg

Anybody can sow and grow clover with rye assuming you have heavier soils (clover doesn't like sandy soils) and you soil test and make amendments to your PH and P&K as needed.

It's getting late to sow clover this year but if you hadn't thought of it, consider frost seeding late this winter to ave you messing around in wet spring weather...;)

dbltree

09-30-2009, 05:23 AM

What happens when you sow winter rye and there is no rain to germinate the seed?

It just lays there, sometimes for weeks until rains finally add moisture and the seed germinates. This plot the seed was broadcast on tilled soil but not tilled in before packing keeping the seed up and away from the sub surface moisture.

The seed layed there for 3 weeks , it rained and it then promptly came up...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Lateryegermination.jpg

Only 10 feet away in the same plot in a slightly lower spot, the seed had enough moisture near the surface and it germinated right away.

Winter rye planted Sept 4th (same as the above pic) note the grazing...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Earlygermination.jpg

When do deer eat winter rye and how tall should it be to be attractive?

When rye gets 3-6" tall they will begin to graze it heavily unless another food source is more attractive(acorns, freshly combined corn etc). The height at which it becomes unattractive can vary, again depending on the availablity of other food sources but I would prefer it not get much above 8-10" and shorter is better in most cases.

They are hammering all of my plots on three different farms in two different counties here in Iowa despite being planted next to alfalfa, clover, soybeans, corn and brassicas.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Grazedrye9-28.jpg

This is an example of pea growth after almost 30 days of growth, 3 weeks of which we had not a drop of rain.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/SDC12988.jpg

Several things can be noted from this, no rain doesn't = a lost stand regarding rye and one can see how overseeding into soybeans or corn will work just fine once you get rain. The seed will just lay there until it rains although birds and rodents will get some.

Lightly tilling/discing/dragging cereal grain seeds in before packing will insure that seeds are placed in the moisture zone and encourage rapid even germination.

Over seeding additonal rye at intervals thru out the fall can provide varying stages of growth even if seeded back into the same rye plot.:)

dbltree

10-01-2009, 04:47 AM

Do you need to add lime and fertilizer to a winter rye planting?

No...rye will grow on almost any soil and PH levels, however it is a great time to start correcting soil nutrient problems for the next crops by applying lime, P&K per soil testing.

Should I use nitrogen tilled in at planting?

That depends on how intense you feel grazing will be and time of planting. Applying nitrogen can cause more harm then good by encouraging rapid growth that will leave winter rye (or any cereal) to tall, stemmy and unpalatable by late hunting season.

Use 40-80#'s of actual nitrogen per acre only if...

1) You expect heavy grazing and need to encourage growth to keep up with it

2) You plant late and want the rye to grow rapidly to catch up before cold weather

I fertilized with 200#'s of urea on the right, 100#'s in the middle and zero on the left in this pic and you can see that it is greener on the right.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/EffectsofNitrogen.jpg

Will deer prefer areas I fertilize?

On three different farms...deer eat the rye with and without nitrogen equally

No nitrogen....

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/NoN.jpg

200#'s of urea applied at planting

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/HeavyN.jpg

Should I topdress additional nitrogen to "sweeten" the rye?

Topdressing will not make the rye any "sweeter" then adding nitrogen at planting and because rye (or any fall grains) are in the ground a short time before cold weather it makes little sense to add additional nitrogen.

Top dressing nitrogen is risky when using urea, without rain it will quickly be lost and all forms of nitrogen need rain to push it to root depth so if you need N the least risk option is to apply it at planting time.

If you find that your rye is being hammered hard and you need addtional growth then apply nitrogen just before a rain but adding it is not going to attract more/bigger/better deer then already feed there.

How late can I plant rye?

Rye will germinate at 34 dgrees and grow at 38 degrees but a minimum of 3 weeks of growing weather is usually required to have enough growth for the rye to be attractive to deer. Weather of course plays a huge influence on the actual growth of winter rye but generally by this time one has little to lose by sowing rye.

I planted 2 more acres on September 29th and expect to have very good growth yet this fall.

This is 30 days of winter rye and pea growth after 3 weeks with not a drop of rain.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryenpeagrowth4weeks.jpg

Can I really just broadcast winter rye onto untilled soil and actually have it germinate and grow??

Absoutely!

Two things are required...soil/seed contact and rain! Without rain the seed will just lay there until it gets moisture but once it does rain (or the soil is already moist) the seed will quickly germinate and grow.

I over seeded this rye about 10 days ago into some heavily grazed brassicas...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeinbrassicas.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Overseededryeinbrassicas.jpg

Into some field peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeinfieldpeas.jpg

and just bare soil

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Overseededrye.jpg

Nothing could be easier then overseeding winter rye into standing crops such as soybeans, corn, thin or heavily grazed brassicas, beets, peas, milo...the list is endless!

It will not work to overseed rye into brassicas or soybeans that are tall and have a heavy canopy. Soys will eventually drop leaves but brassicas will remain standing until to late for the rye to grow.

Overseed winter rye at 100-150#'s per acre as close to a rain as possible although it will just lay there until it does rain.

Red clover can be added to the rye to overseed into standing soybeans as well...;)

magnus

10-01-2009, 04:57 AM

Paul, In that plot where you seeded clover & rye -- then burned off the rye in the Spring w/ Glypho -- what was your Glypho rate per-acre? Bob

risto2351

10-01-2009, 06:39 AM

Paul,
At what temps will the oats and peas continue to grow?

HannibalBowhunter

10-01-2009, 07:24 PM

Paul,

Just wanted to thank you for all the advice. Here are a couple of pictures from today. I overseeded my beans 12 days ago and they are already 3-4 inches tall! There is early browsing going on as well!

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae73/drsfriedersdorf/DSC07404.jpg

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae73/drsfriedersdorf/DSC07405.jpg

dbltree

10-02-2009, 07:30 AM

I overseeded my beans 12 days ago and the rye is already 3-4 inches tall!

Awesome! Thanks a bunch for sharing the pics with us!

One can easily see how this combination can work so well because as the beans are drying down the rye (that can be as high as 38% crude protein) is keeping deer in the plot and between the the beans and rye will feed deer all the way into next spring!

Can you say shed magnet!!

I have mentioned that I don't personally plant forage soybeans because they dry down in the middle of hunting season rather then before at which point they become unattractive for 2-3 weeks.

For those that like to take advantage of forage beans you might consider planting 1/3 of a plot to very early maturing beans, 1/3 to mid maturity and 1/3 to forage beans.

The early maturing beans will drop leaves very early depening on planting date, possibley by very late August allowing either brassicas or winter rye to be over seeded.

The second set will mature in mid September allowing winter rye to be over seeded all the while deer will still be feeding on the forage beans.

You'll never skip a beat regardless with conventional RR early maturing soys and over seeded rye or a combination. Do not mix them however or the forage beans will maintain canopy and not allow the rye to grow.;)

dbltree

10-04-2009, 07:15 AM

I enjoy "testing" theories so I top dressed 5 small winter rye/pea plots with nitrogen the other day and we recieved nearly 3" of rain the following two days! Perfect scenario to insure the nitrogen wasn't lost to the atmosphere and will be in the root zone.

I did 1/2 of each plot and have trail cams set up to monitor what if anything happens. I've done this in the past and noted no difference in choice of grazing but what the heck..we'll give it another shot!

You can see both the fertilizer and baby clover coming up as well

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Fertilizedrye9-30-09.jpg

This plot is one that had not recieved rain for three weeks but a previous rain had germinated the rye seed and spurred growth, so I marked the center with a flag and fertilized one half.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Fertilizedleftside.jpg

The rye in these plots is already being grazed so in situations like these I always wonder what is to be gained by encouraging growth at this point?

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Grazedrye9-30.jpg

Where landowners have intense grazing pressure sometimes fertilizer is required but the least risky option is to till in urea at planting but when doing this one needs to plant a week or so later rather then earlier because the rye may grow TOO rapidly and defeat the purpose.

Fall is a great time to add lime and P&K if soil tests call for it to build soil nutrients for your next crop but winter rye is very capable of bringing up subsoil nutrients and storing them all for...free!

This is one of my larger plots of winter rye/oats/peas/forage radish and red clover on 9-28

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Winterrye9-28.jpg

It's always interesting to follow progress thru the fall, winter and into spring because winter rye is the most winter hardy of all cereals insuring that it will be there the entire time both you and your deer herd need it most...:way:

dbltree

10-06-2009, 05:07 PM

Will winter rye grow in a semi shaded spot with only partial sun?

You bet! Every shaded spot is different however and the less sun the plot gets the poorer the rye will do.

This semi shaded spot grows rye and oats well even with out lime and fertilizer but brassicas alway fail in the same spot.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinshadedryeplot.jpg

Shaded spots tend to have far less moisture as trees suck up subsoil moisture and the leaves tend to make if very acidic but winter rye is fairly impervious to either of those problems. It won't hurt to add some pell lime and fertilizer to start improving the soil if you plan to use the plot long term.

I planted some late rye plots on the 28th of September on some unimproved ground that even with plenty of nitrogen added, wouldn't grow brassicas. I'm going to soil test and see what it needs before my next crop but it will be interesting to see both how rye does on poor soil and how rye planted this late will fare.

Some plots were on good improved soil where deer had killed the field peas I had planted this past summer

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilledfor9-28-09winterrye.jpg

The soil had plenty of moisture and tilled up nice and loose, so I broadcast seed and cultipacked to cover rather then till it in first.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Readytoplant.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tilledforwinterrye.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Plantedtorye9-28.jpg

We got several inches of rain two days later and we have plenty of growing days left with temps running in the mid 60's during the day and 40's at night.

In most years I would far rather have winter rye planted in late September then late August......;)

droptine37

10-06-2009, 07:11 PM

dbltree

10-06-2009, 11:30 PM

We planted our rye the 3rd week of august and the plot was getting a lot of attention through september. It seems like the last two weeks all the deer have disappeared from that plot. Do you think the plot has matured too much or has the arrival of a great acorn crop caught the deers attention? Based on everything I have read from your posts I am starting to think that we will wait until at least september 1st from now on to avoid the plot maturing before the start of the season.
Will a rye, triticale and oats plot that had enough time to grow before the first hard frost to reach maturity still be a late season attractant? I would have to think that when the snow is on the ground that deer would still dig in the snow for the rye and tritacle underneath when most other food is long gone.

It's probably a combination of other food sources and the rye getting a little too mature and less attractive.

Rye and triticale are absoutely great late season attractants and will draw deer all the way in spring but freshly harvested corn is going to trump anything else you could plant.

Standing grain like corn or soybeans are hard to compete with because they seek out the high energy food sources including acorns. Eventually however they will come running back to the rye when all else is gone.

This is why I like the standing beans and overseeded winter rye combo but not everyone can grow beans including me!

Plant your rye a little later and include peas to add some "candy" and forage radish for a late season attractant and you'll be happier with the results...;)

dbltree

10-12-2009, 10:04 AM

It's now mid October and here in the midwest it's getting beyond the point where fall applied fertilizer is going to be of much benefit to the growth of your rye/pea and clover combinations.

It is a great time to apply fertilizer that can benefit the clovers next spring and next years crop (such as brassicas, corn, milo etc)

Our temps here are struggling to reach 50 now and freezing at night so urea is much less volatile then when soil temps are 70 degrees or above.

Now personally I would not attempt to apply urea in and of itself right now unless you will be planting corn next year and you would like to notill the crop in which case putting urea or triple 19 could be beneficial and safely done ex[ecting some losses:

Urea applied in the fall has generally not been as effective as AA. This is especially true in south-central Minnesota and Iowa. When fall soil-moisture conditions are dry, there is little difference between AA and urea. But when soil-moisture content is high, fall applications of urea haven't performed as well as AA.

It is a fine time though to start building P&K levels if you have the time and weather permits.

You may find however that many fertlizer mixes may be 10-26-26, 8-36-36 or 6-24-24 and you may also find that a soil test shows that you need 300-400#'s per acre.

By applying in the fall you will not have to worry about losing all nitrogen in the mix and in the spring the rye will absorb it into it's root systems and then re-release it as it decomposes.

Here are some thoughts on fall applied urea.....

Fall Surface-Applied Urea Timelines
During late October/November, there may be days where soils are not deeply frozen, but frozen enough to hold up fertilizer applicators. On the warming side of the freeze and thaw cycle, where water can still move into the soil, urea can be applied with little danger of loss.

This time of year, urea can stay on the surface for a week with nearly zero loss.

When snow melts into the soil, it will move the urea into this soil, protecting it from losses due to volatilization or surface water movement. As the winter deepens, this opportunity will be lost, for although the more frozen soil will hold up equipment, it also will not permit movement of urea into the soil. Surface water movement that could move urea is hard on the pocketbook and the environment. Pay attention to the freeze-thaw cycle and apply urea on the thaw side of the cycle.

When we have warmer humid conditions such as spring and early summer the following happens:

When applied to soil, urea is hydrolyzed by the enzyme urease to NH4+. Depending on soil pH, the NH4+ may form NH3, which can be volatilized at the soil surface, as represented in the following reactions:
CO(NH2)2 + H+ + 2H20 --> 2NH4+ + HC03-
NH4+ ---> NH3 + H+
Urea hydrolysis proceeds rapidly in warm, moist soils, with most of the urea transformed to NH4+ in several days.

So warm weather urea applications need to either be tilled in or just before a heavy rain to push it into the soils.

I just wanted to share this because many ask...is it too late to apply nitrogen?

It may not benefit the crop right now but it also will not be lost and will be utilized in the spring months and recycled when the winter rye is killed or plowed under....;)

risto2351

10-13-2009, 12:19 PM

dbltree

10-13-2009, 01:04 PM

Paul,
Will the recent weather slow down or did it just nuke the BF oats?

If it nuked it will the oats be a draw at all now for the deer?

Now I know it will not kill the rye but will it actually grow when it warms up or is it as tall as it will get?

Most oats will last to mid November to mid December depending on the year and weather. Oats can take some pretty cold weather before dying.

This cloudy cold weather that barely gets to 45 is not going to grow much of anything but if we get some more 55-65 sunny days, then yes it will grow a little more.

We don't want to much growth however...just enough to keep up with grazing if we had our druthers....;)

dbltree

10-14-2009, 02:34 PM

Here's a few pics from on of my winter rye/oat/pea plots where I'm testing the use of nitrogen versus no nitrogen. 200#'s on the right, 100 in the center and none on the left.

So far grazing appears to be uniform and consistant regardless of use of fertilizer and TC pics show grazing on all sides.

Notice the deer in the background feeding on the unfertilized rye and clearly none of the rye is taller or shorter showing equal grazing across the plot.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinrye1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinrye2.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinrye3.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deerinrye4.jpg

I have smaller plots that will yield better pics because in a large one the cam obviously isn't going to detect deer farther away but so far (as I have found in the past) I have found no evidence that deer selectively choose fertilizer rye over that which is not...;)

dbltree

10-16-2009, 07:15 AM

Some more comparison pics...Winter Rye and Austrian Winter Peas and Tricticale and 4010 peas (4010's are 1/2 the price of AWP)

This pic shows winter rye and AWP's on the right, triticale and 4010's in the center and winter rye and 4010's on the far left with no noticable difference in grazing or obvious choosing of one over another.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/SDC13237.jpg

Same farm but planted as strips between rows of trees this is Winter Rye and AWP's 10-12-09

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/RyenAWP1-13-09.jpg

and this is the triticale/4010 peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Tricalenfieldpea10-13-09.jpg

Now the triticale/4010 row happens to be directly connecting runways in/out of to wooded areas and you can see the runway slightly left of center so this row is getting heavier use/grazing then any other. The larger plot is a more fair comparison of the two.

Both these strips are being grazed heavily and both were sown at over 100#'s of peas and 150#'s of rye or triticale seed along with 200#'s of urea per acre.

Close up this is what it looks like and the approximate height I would prefer winter rye to be this time of year

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryenpeas10-12.jpg

From this I can safely say that most can sow (for forage puposes) 100#'s or more per acre of pea seed to better keep up with heavy grazing.

I will continue to share how the two different types of peas and cereal grains compare into late fall and winter when extreme temps begin to affect them.
Eventually this type of information better allows landowners to decide what seeds might work best for them and fit into their food plot budget without adversely affecting their ability to attract and hold whitetails....:way:

dbltree

10-21-2009, 06:24 PM

Update on late planted winter rye that I planted 9-29 after which we have had abnormally cool wet weather that has averaged 7-8 degrees below normal with few sunny days. Shorter length of day also affects plant growth....somthing to be aware of when planting later in the fall as with over seeding. Weather is always an unknown factor when we plant regardless of time of year...

This is as of 10-17 roughly 2 1/2 weeks after planting and far slower then the same rye seed planted Sept. 2nd.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Newrye10-17.jpg

No exactly tall enough for grazing yet but since then we have had some near 70 degree weather and bright sunny days, so I'll check on it next week and see how it looks then.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryesprouts.jpg

This is overseeded winter rye (into heavily grazed brassicas) that is roughly 3 1/2 weeks along now.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryegrowthinbrassicas.jpg

and I have noticed that deer have been grazing this rye
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeinturnips.jpg

I now have winter rye planted at roughly two week intervals starting with the first of September so I'll continue to share usage and growth on thru the fall...;)

Baranx4

10-23-2009, 12:26 PM

dbltree

10-29-2009, 08:56 AM

Some folks have been asking about their rye turning yellow after too much rain but there is little we can do about that except hope for some sunny dry weather. We continue to get flooded here in Iowa with 1-3" a week on completely saturated soils causing plants to literally drown!

This pic is of some of my rye where water is still standing and we have another inch in the forecast!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Floodedrye.jpg

Where soils have good drainage growth is still great!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WRgrowth10-26.jpg

This is one of my test plots that was fertilized on the left, not on the right with no noticeable difference in grazing preference.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WR10-26.jpg

This is winter rye and Groundhog Forage Radish both being grazed heavily...notice the clover also doing well!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/FRinWR.jpg

This is baby white clover coming up in winter rye that shows evidence of heavy grazing despite standing corn and beans literally feet away!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WrGrazing10-26.jpg

Constant heavy rainfall like some of us have had this year can cause leaching of nitrogen and that can drastically affect some crops like corn or brassicas.

Winter rye however can grow with very low nitrogen requirements so the yellowing I am seeing now is due solely to areas of completely saturated soils that remain that way for long periods of time.

In our area, only 1-2% of the crops have been harvested because of wet conditions and there appears no end in sight based on the weather forecast.

If your soils are not that wet and your winter rye is yellowing then most likely you have a severe nutrient deficiency because winter rye will grow on some very poor soils!;)

TMHC

10-29-2009, 02:11 PM

dbltree

10-30-2009, 03:23 AM

I have an acre of oats/rye. When spring arrives the rye will continue to grow throughout the spring. What would you plant come June to carry this through the summer. Next fall I intend to add AWP (or field peas) and clover to the mix. Also, is there a difference in fall oats/ spring oats? fall rye, cereal grain rye?

The rye will grow like crazy in the spring up to 5 or 6 foot high so it usually is easist to mow it off before it gets 12-20" high. You might consider frost seeding clover into it this late winter so that you have summer feed without having to spring till your rye plot.

In future plantings I would reccomend planting red clover with your fall rye planting so that you can clip the rye off in the spring and have an all spring/summer source of feed that can then be plowed under as a source of nitrogen for your next crop. (white clover will work also)

There is no such thing as "fall oats", all oats are spring planted except for forage purposes for grazing livestock or deer when we fall plant them...same oats either way.

Winter rye, fall rye grain, cereal rye...all the same thing but ryegrass is like lawngrass so just don't let that confuse you.

TMHC

10-30-2009, 08:46 AM

Thanks again. Is there much difference in AWP and regular field peas?

dbltree

10-31-2009, 03:28 AM

Thanks again. Is there much difference in AWP and regular field peas?
I am comparing the two right now but so far...no, now difference at all for forage although the AWP may be a little more winter hardy.

So far they lap mine up long before severe cold weather anyway so it's kind of a moot point...;)

Baranx4

11-02-2009, 09:55 AM

I'm having the same problem with my rye and oats we planted almost 9 acres with areas mixed with several types of brassicas, clover, field peas, quail soy, soybeans, and hairy vetch and the deer population has really hit the fields hard. I actually called yesterday to see if I can get more winter rye to overseed several areas since they actually are eaten down to dirt. It the rate they're going I don't think the plots will make it to the rut. Here in Pa it kicks in right before Halloween.

I'm thinking of seeding it in before the heavy rain they are calling for on Saturday. Hard to believe for how heavy I seeded it that they could knock it down so quickly.

I over seeded two bushels of winter rye right before the rains came and we've had a fair amount of it since then with temps in the 50's for highs and 40's for low. I checked the fields this morning 10 days later and am really surprised how well they came up. I actually think it came up faster than when I seeded it initially back in September. I think the mild weather, rains, and the turkeys inability to get to the seeds helped. Only problem now is that I got my buck this past wednesday so the extra work I did won't be doing much for me except pulling nitrogen for my spring plantings. Turkeys did come in on Nov 1 so maybe.

dbltree

11-04-2009, 02:50 AM

Update on the late planted winter rye put in Sept 29th, followed by cold wet weather. We have finally had a few sunny warm days and growth has picked up.

This patch is still a little slow and has grown since I took these pics on 10-27-09

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/onemontholfrye.jpg

This one looks better and deer are grazing it already

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/10-2730daysold.jpg

Late planted winter rye can work well and it may work for some landowners to plant some early, mid season and late for differing stages of growth depending on the amount of land and time you have to work with... ;)

TMHC

11-04-2009, 11:28 AM

dbltree

11-06-2009, 07:45 PM

Next year when I plant my 1 acre plot of oats, rye, peas and clover should I fertilize it with triple 13, triple 19 or 46-0-0 urea? I currently have it in oats and rye. I will be bringing in some lime this spring.

The best bet is to send in a soil test and see what is required for growing clover and fertilize accordingly.

If you have heavy grazing pressure you can add 100-150#'s of 46-0-0 to spur a flush of growth from your cereal grains but usually it's not needed, again it depends on your soil fertility but winter rye will grow quite well on pretty poor ground.

You can find more info on soil testing and fertilizers here:

Soil testing (http://iowawhitetail.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18275)

Without a soil test I would probably apply at least 200-300#'s of triple 19 but a soilt test takes all the guess work out of it...;)

dbltree

11-08-2009, 03:41 PM

When I post the following fall seed mixture, the only question or thought on the minds of most landowners is “will deer eat it?”…the answer of course is yes but there is so much more to this combination the just attracting whitetails.

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (or 4010 or 6040 field peas)
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre
Oilseed/Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

That combination also happens to have tremendous soil building power in addition to providing high quality, high protein forage literally year around.
Let’s break this seed mixture down a bit and explore a little bit closer exactly what each contributes from a soil perspective as we have already covered the crude protein attributes.

In most of the upper Midwest and northern states the oats, peas and forage radishes will not survive the winter, with exceptions in mild winters. All three however will have made a significant contribution during the 3- 4 months growing period each fall.

The roots systems of oats also have the capability to hold some nitrogen, they cannot however hold it as long as winter rye. Still this is a plus as the oats do provide a lush source of forage until severe winter weather freezes them out.

Peas of any kind are legumes and they are the “candy” in this mix, irresistible to deer they often don’t last long unless planted at higher rates. Peas are capable of fixing 100-120#’s of N per acre in a normal growing season but they will produce significantly less in the short fall growing season …any N production however is a plus and cannot be ignored.

Forage or tillage radishes are one in the same being used first by organic farmers to break up hardpan soils, recycle nitrogen and provide natural weed control via their allelopathic chemicals. Following a crop of forage radishes the soil will often be completely free of weeds for several months or more. Forage radishes have proven to be extremely palatable to deer that often eat them despite ignoring other brassicas, yet do not have the large leaf canopy that typical brassicas such as rape and turnips have, making it less competitive in a combination planting.

That brings us to the “survivors”, the two that will assuredly survive brutal winter weather and provide both lush early spring forage and tons of dry matter to improve our soils.

Winter rye is king, able to grow from northern Florida to northern parts of Canada and coast to coast, not only surviving but thriving on the poorest sandy dry soils to hardpan clay sub soils. Rye will grow under the most difficult of conditions including low PH levels and poor soil nutrient levels.

Feed it nitrogen and it will force root systems even deeper pulling up potassium and scavenging the nitrogen into its root systems to be released later as the killed plant breaks down. Rye's allelopathic chemicals help control spring weeds along with rapid spring growth that further shades and slows weed growth. In spring rye explodes to life and in 30-45 days can be 4-6 feet high so we have to be prepared to clip it at a height that will not leave so much residue as to smother the red clover.

Red clover…is the sleeper in all of this, of no use to deer the fall before it has quietly been establishing its root systems in the warm days of autumn then sleeping away the winter months. Protected by the winter rye and dead oat mulch it is prepared for spring like a race horse at the gate, springing to life at the first warm days of spring.

Springtime…a time when landowners often ignore the needs of their whitetails but it is now they are often desperately in need. Bucks, gaunt from the previous breeding season but yet starting new antler growth. Does heavy with fawns that are at critical stages of development and soon lactating, search out sources of high quality forage.

Fall planted red clover is like the calvary rushing to the rescue at the last moment, just when deer need it most it is there like a cool drink of water on a hot summer day. Of course both white and red clovers along with alfalfas can all provide an awesome source of spring time protein, the point here is to show the benefit of adding red clover to your fall mix…both to deer and to improve your soils.

Even if you have other clover plots(and you should) by adding red clover to the fall mix you now have no reason to be concerned about spring tilling wet fields…your work already done for you. Clipping the rye and later the red clover, to keep it blooming and fixing nitrogen is all that is required, yet every single day your clover is working for you, like money in a savings account….you do nothing but let it work for you.

All summer it works, growing rapidly producing up to 2 tons of dry matter per acre, not only are it’s roots now rich with nitrogen fixing nodules but it is suffocating weeds, extending a rich root system that loosens soils and pulling up nutrients into it’s leaves and stems. At the same time it is providing high quality high protein forage for your deer herd.

Eventually the time comes to collect the “interest” so to speak, time to plant brassicas or repeat the fall combination, so if we are wise we choose to “reinvest” every ounce of nutrients and dry matter the clover has built up.

How best to do that? The roots contain the lion’s share of the nitrogen but the plant itself also holds all of the key elements along with this wonderful organic matter that can improve our soils.

Landowners with small equipment will most likely need to mow the clover (shred it if possible) then immediately incorporate the still green clover into the soil by disking or tilling until the plant matter is thoroughly covered.

Another option, perhaps the best one to quickly, efficiently trap every shred of nitrogen and organic matter is to plow the clover under, instantly trapping all of its treasures that can then be slowly released for the next crop.

Long term use of plows is detrimental to most soils and not recommended simply to plant a crop when minimal or no tillage would suffice but for incorporating cover crops on soils that are not highly erodible a plow can still be a highly beneficial tool.

I have the luxury of using a large heavy disc to incorporate my red clover albeit with several passes…

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Equipment/Discingdownbeans.jpg

On smaller plots I use several passes with my tiller to incorporate clover without mowing

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Tillingdownclover.jpg

Effectively trapping most of the clover beneath the soil however anything left on the surface will dry and as the water leaves the plant residue, so does any nitrogen…lost now to the atmosphere FOREVER.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/TilledReadytoplant.jpg

Red Clover Cover Crops (http://www.covercrops.msu.edu/species/red.html)

Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover (http://www.welterseed.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=39)

For those who will follow this fall annual crop with corn or milo I would consider substituting hairy vetch for the red clover as it can produce more N in a shorter time frame in the spring. Plant the corn or milo as late as possible and killing the rye and vetch with glyphosate is recommended and then either till or no-till.

Despite this very long post, it is only the tip of the iceberg in learning more about both feeding your whitetails and your soils in a way that improves the quality of both, lowers your fertilizer and herbicide needs and saves you money.

If you have not, I would urge you to spend some time exploring the links and detailed information at the begining of this thread.

There you can learn more about the individual and combined attributes of each component in the combination I recommend and better understand how you can use them in your own habitat program…;)

TMHC

11-12-2009, 10:29 AM

What a great post. You are The King. You make it so simple to read, so simple to understand. Have you ever taught elementary school? Thanks for all your research and communication skills. You have made understanding this food plot business a lot easier for novices such as me.
Thanks.

dbltree

11-12-2009, 11:06 AM

Thanks TMHC :way:

November 10th update on comparison between Winter Rye and Winter Trticale and Austrian Winter Peas verus 4010 Forage peas
Winter Triticale and 4010 peas

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Wintertriticaleand4010peas11-09.jpg

The 4010 peas have been mowed to the ground despite being planted at nearly 100#'s per acre!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Trictaleand4010peas.jpg

Winter Rye and AWP...grazing about identical

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/WinterryenAWP11-09.jpg

Some of the AWP are slightly taller then the 4010's but basically the same

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryenawp.jpg

You can't go wrong planting any of those in any combination but winter rye and 4010 or 6040 peas are easy to get and less expensive. I can see no substantial difference in grazing preference or repsonce to the grazing...;)

dbltree

11-16-2009, 06:51 PM

This time of year is when we start to evaluate how our cereal grain stand worked out and what we need to change for next year?

If grazing was heavy then perhaps higher seeding and fertilizer rates are needed while the opposite may be required if grazing pressure was light.

Here are a couple examples of plots on one of my farms compared to identical seeds, seeding and fertilizer rates on a friends farm. Mine with very heavy grazing and his with light grazing pressure.

One of my plots...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/11-09-09WinterRyeplot.jpg

The fertilized side is greener but otherwise there is little difference

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Fertilizedrye.jpg

with the unfertilized side grazed just as hard with deer showing no preference

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Unfertilizedrye.jpg

My friends plots are all being grazed but this farm just has more feed available and plenty of crops so grazing is not as intense.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Plotinfrontofblind.jpg

The lightly grazed rye is much taller with this being the fertilized side

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryewithurea.jpg

and this the unfertilized area

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryewithnourea.jpg

Now I put on 200#'s of urea on a 1/3 of mine, 100#'s and zero and it made no difference to the deer but it certainly helped push growth as much as possible although still impossible to keep up with grazing.

If your rye looks like my friends at this point in the fall, then fertilizing to push growth is really counter productive and I'm talking about nitrogen, P&K levels can be brought up to par but cereal grain is going to grow rapidly if nitrogen is used.

If grazing is light then why force growth to a point where it becomes unpalatable? One can also see in both situations with heavy or light grazing, heavy or no nitrogen applications...there is no noticable preference by deer.

Grazing height is the same with or without fertilizer so don't apply nitrogen based on the myth that deer may "like it" better, apply it soley based on the need for more growth to keep up with heavy grazing.

Winter rye is perfectly capable of growing without added nitrogen so if it isn't needed then your better off building P&K levels to feed the new red or white clover seeded with the winter rye and allow the clover to furnish the nitrogen for the next crop of brassicas or rye...... ;)

dbltree

11-18-2009, 05:17 PM

Here's an example of mature oats versus fall planted winter rye and spring oats. I tilled under oats and berseem after mowing it first to plant brassicas and of course the oats all sprouted. (late July planting) The oats are now fully mature and nothing more then "straw" that is unattractive and nutritionally poor at this point.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Viewtoappletrees.jpg

Deer aren't touching the mature oats but are foraging on the lush fall planted rye and oats (planted early September)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryennoatsfertilized.jpg

The deer on this farm want for nothing with more then they can eat so the early planted, now mature oats are not really a big deal one way or the other.
If however grazing pressure was intense and competition from other landowners with lush food plots was also a part of the picture...early planted cereals could leave one very dissapointed right about now...;)

dbltree

11-20-2009, 06:54 PM

Winter rye and September planting are perfect for starting either red or white clovers! Weather is usually not a problem as it can be in the spring and any annual weeds that emerge will quickly die with the first frosts of fall, leaving the clover to grow with out any competition.

On good soils where PH and soil deficiencies have been corrected the clover will thrive and grow quickly during the warm days of early autumn.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/CloverinRye.jpg

These are pictures of clover where we still have some soil improvments to make this winter and growth is a little slower

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/NewcloverSEPlot.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Clover/Newclover-1.jpg

I start white clover that will be a 3-5 year plot this way and red clover that will be used for a green manure plowdown the following year, all in the fall. In the spring I clip the fast growing winter rye when it gets 12-20" high and then clip as needed to maintain any clover plot.

I disc or till around September 1st, broadcast or drill the cereal grains and peas and any fertilizer/lime, cultipack, then broadcast the tiny clover and forage radish seed and re-pack to cover.

I usually use some combination of the following clover varieties and Welter Seed is a great place to learn more about these clovers and compare prices with local sources.

Welter Seed - Clover Seed List (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=2&org=0)

Alice White Clover 2#
KopuII White Clover 2#
Jumbo Ladino Clover 2#
or
10-12#'s or Mammouth Alta-Swede Red Clover

and I plant them with the following grains and forage radish that provide all winter quality forage along with great soil building attributes.

Welter Seed - Cereal Grain and Pea seed (http://www.welterseed.com/productItems.aspx?id=37&org=0)

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (or 4010 or 6040 field peas)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Those combinations work well in my 3 way plot rotations that include seperate strips of clover, brassicas and cereals in each plot.

Avoid fighting the weather and weeds in the spring and establish clovers in the fall with your winter rye... ;)

dbltree

11-27-2009, 10:36 AM

This is winter rye I over seeded in late September into heavily grazed brassicas that deer are feeding heavily on here in mid November.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Ryeinbrassicas-1.jpg

Obviously thick uneaten brassicas wil not allow rye or anything else to grow becuase of the thick canopy but if deer start hammering the brassicas early in the fall as they do mine, winter rye broadcasted at 80-150#'s per acre will save the day and provide grazing all the way until spring...;)

Couple more pics from my hidden winter rye/pea plot from during the rut...usually they just blast on thru but this one stopped for a bite! :)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Buckinrye.jpg

as did this one

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Deer%20in%20Rye/Buck2.jpg

Winter rye is so easy to grow even in semi shaded plots where PH is poor and it can be sown even in remote areas by just scratching things up with a rake if equipment can't be brought in. :way:

letemgrow

11-27-2009, 12:35 PM

Good looking stuff Paul!! You are the man when it comes to documenting all your adventures on the farm. :D

dbltree

12-03-2009, 04:58 PM

A few people have commented that their winter rye and oats were turning"brown" or "purple" and that deer were not eating it. This year it is because the plants are drowning in saturated and soggy soils that never dry out. Water replaces air normally in the soil and it struggles to "breathe" not unlike we do under water.

I have some winter rye and oats planted on the side of a waterway that most years is dry, however this year it has remained wet even during dry periods simply because saturated upland soils adjacent to it continue to seep water into the low area.

Here's what it looks like up close...notice the purple tops of the leaves and notice how high it is.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Drownedrye.jpg

This is the plot itself, notice the closer it is to the corn (the ground rises slightly there) it's grazed shorter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/Soggyrye.jpg

Only 10 yards away, the soil there while no higher, is adjacent to sod and trees and water is not seeping from it in the same manner as the corn field. The rye and oats are a healthy green and there deer have grazed it nearly to the dirt!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e288/dbltree/Cereal%20Grains/11-27-09Grazedrye.jpg

Sometimes some subtle things can affect plants/crops that we may not even be aware of, especially on lands that are away from home and the landowner only visits it occasionally.... ;)