My Savage ML10II

[JNRBRONC]

I dabbled with black powder guns when I was in my early teens. I ordered a .45 caliber Kentucky pistol kit from Dixie Gun Works. I also bought a brass frame .44 revolver from a friend. I picked up some bullet molds and we spent many a weekend melting down tire weights we got from the local gas station so that we could cast bullets. My friends brother had a bunch of parts laying around and sold me the whole works for something like $10. It was enough to cobble together my first black powder rifle. Back then, we shot true black powder. After shooting three loads of the cylinder of the old brass frame .44 and the cylinder would be so fouled it wouldn't spin. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Around 1989, I heard rumors that the Iowa DNR was thinking about establishing a muzzle loader deer season. I was excited about this new opportunity and was surprised when my wife bought me a Hastings .50 caliber black powder barrel that fit my Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun (Christmas present). Unfortunately for me, the DNR did not create a new season like I thought they would (I was hoping for another season along with shotgun). Oh well, I had the gun, so I bought a pound of Pyrodex, some 250 grain .45 caliber bullets matched with .50 cal sabots and some 385 grain .50 caliber "buffalo bullets". I finished the gun out with an Aimtech "saddle" scope mount and a Tasco 4X riflescope.

The saboted bullets shot like crap. Accuracy with the .50 maxi bullets wasn't too shabby, but was related to how fouled the barrel was. It as very important to shoot from a clean barrel. So I always cleaned it so that the first shot while hunting was out of a clean barrel. I successfully harvested a couple of deer with this set up, but hated the clean up and the only time I would shoot the gun was right before season to make sure it was sighted in, then during hunting season. The dread of clean up prevented me from taking it out of the gun safe during the off season. I still have half a pound of that can of Pyrodex I bought in '89. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

A few years back, I started to hear some buzz about a smokeless powder shooting muzzleloader that Savage was selling. Hating the fouling and cleaning from my earlier muzzy experience, I was all ears. I spent a fair amount of time reading internet forums that dealt with this gun and I just knew I had to have one. Some states won't allow the use of smokeless ml's in their seasons, but no big deal, just shoot some BP substitute that they approve of. In the mean time, I can shoot smokeless in Iowa. It's not like I hunt out of state very often so it wasn't that big of an issue.

I think I'll stop with this book as it's getting long and some people don't like to read long posts. I plan to add to this thread, discuss the powders I've shot (and one's I'm interested in trying), discuss sabots and bullets. The sabot/bullet discussion might be helpful for all mz shooters.

I'll state right up front that I don't profess to be an expert nor am I trying to "convert" anybody. I'm just hoping to share my journey.

If anybody has any questions, jump on in.

Also, I know there are other Savage shooters who visit this site and I hope they jump in as well.

[Shovelbuck]

Thanks for the post! As Red Green say's.............."we're all in this together".
Interesting comment on the cleaning. I've often wondered what was so tough about it. I've owned a ton of these things and never had a problem. Until NOW! A couple years ago I picked up a T/C sidelock rifle that is absolutely the nastiest gun I've ever attempted to clean. You can run 50 patched through it and they never come out clean! So I now know what the complaining is about! Some guns must be plain bad and I had been lucky all these years.

Hopefully I won't pound you for too many questions about the Savage. But I'll start out with this.
I've heard there can be problems with blow-by of the sabots due to high pressure. Is this only a problem when exceding recommended loads or do you have to shop carefully for the proper sabot?

[blake]

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Oh yes, <u>the new fangled muzzleloader </u>that shoots smokeless powder. I was wondering if you were ever going to get in here and do some posting. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Just kidding! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I for one am looking forward to hearing what you have to share with us. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I also hope that many more of you will share your muzzleloading experiences with the rest of us. Inquiring minds want to know! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

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Ron Wyllie
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rwyllie@iowawhitetail.com

[JNRBRONC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shovelbuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard there can be problems with blow-by of the sabots due to high pressure. Is this only a problem when exceding recommended loads or do you have to shop carefully for the proper sabot? </div></div>

"Know thy sabot"!! Not all sabots are created equal and most problems can be avoided with proper sabot selection.

I bet that the majority of muzzleloader shooters (BP,BP sub and smokeless) don't know what sabot they are shooting. If asked, they might say they shoot Hornady sabots because they buy the 15 or 20 pack of Hornady bullets that come with sabots. Problem is, Hornady does not make sabots. They outsource them and package them with their bullets. I find this somewhat troubling for a couple of reasons: 1) they can change their supplier so that you might get a different sabot from box to box, 2) the sabot is THE most critical component in the load, IMO.

Why is it the most critical? Well, it has to stand up to very high pressure, whatever powder is being used. Blow by causes erratic muzzle velocities which hurts accuracy. In the case of smokeless shooters, the fit or snugness of the sabot/bullet combination is critical. Most smokeless powders need "back pressure" to build a "pressure curve". If the pressure doesn't rise properly, the powder doesn't want to burn. One of my friends has a Savage. His son bought some sabots while at the local sporting goods store. All .50 caliber sabots are the same, right? Well, they were loose fitting in his bore and caused misfires (which he thought might be his powder at first, but it was a brand new can). Sabot/bullet combinations that load too easily in the Savage are the #1 cause of misfires, IMO.

I was kindly given permission by Big6X6 (the owner of Modern Muzzleloader website) to use this picture:
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/sabotbullets.jpg

As you see, there are a few options out there for bullet/sabot combos. What it boils down to for me, from reading other Savage users experiences, is that I want to stick with a Muzzleload Magnum Product sabot (http://www.mmpsabots.com/) or a Harvester Crush rib sabot. (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?type=pod&id=0012633&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=harvestor%20crush%20rib&cm_ite=netcon&rid=0180101070502)

The bore of my Savage is VERY tight when I use the "standard" MMP black sabot or the MMP HPH12. Black crushed rib Harvesters load much easier, but I haven't spent much range time with them. I'm also contemplating the MMP HPH24's. Then there is the whole boat tail bullet thing I want to try which takes the MMP orange sabot........

Decisions, decisions.....

[Shovelbuck]

Makes a patched ball look pretty simple. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Of course you still have to get exact ball size and patch thickness. Same game, different materials.

What kind of velocities are you getting with the load you prefer? Is it equal to say, a 30.06?.... 7mm?

[JNRBRONC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shovelbuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What kind of velocities are you getting with the load you prefer?</div></div>

I went through the "magnum" phase when I first got the Savage. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif I felt like I had to max out the recommended powder charges and look for top end velocity. When bullets started fraggin on impact, I decided to step back a few grains of powder. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif I'm guessing velocity around 2,000-2,100 fps with a 250 grain bullet (I don't have chrono access).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shovelbuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Is it equal to say, a 30.06?.... 7mm? </div></div>
Well, I've got a 7MM Rem Mag that will kick a 150 grain bullet somewhere around 2,800 to 2,900 fps. It is not a gun I like to spend long times at the range with, call me a recoil wimp I guess. I don't mind it while shooting at game, though. There are some Savage owners who are reporting in excess of 2,700 fps shooting a 300 grain bullet. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif They say it gets your attention when you squeeze off a round. To get those kind of velocities you need to move away from the Savage Owners Manual recommended powder loads, something I do not advocate unless: you know a whole lot more about gun powder/ballastics than I do (wouldn't take much) and you are willing to take reponsibility for your actions. The information is out there (powder duplexing) but I'm not going to parrot any of it.

[Shovelbuck]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but I'm not going to parrot any of it. </div></div>


Good plan, we enjoy you here!

[JNRBRONC]

Recommended powders:

From the Savage Owners Manual (the most current version on-line), the recommended powders are IMR SR4759, Accurate Arms XMP-5744 and Vihtavouri N110. I'll list the "hottest" recommeded loads for each using a 250 grain .452" Hornady SST/STP:
SR4759 43 gr. 2,330fps
XMP-5744 44 gr. 2,267fps
VV N110 42 gr. 2,254fps

When I purchased my rifle, IMR-4227 was a recommended powder but has since been dropped. The reason I heard that it was dropped was due to the fact that it was prone to misfires with loose sabot/bullet combinations. As I've mentioned previously, the bore on my Savage is VERY tight with the MMP HPH12 sabot/Hornady .452" XTP, and thus my only misfires have come from condensation getting the powder wet when taking a loaded gun in and out of a heated garage. I still continue to shoot IMR-4227 because it is the powder that I originally sighted my rifle in with (too lazy to work up another load with the XMP5744 I have on hand) and I'm too cheap to throw away half a can of powder (I think I said earlier that I still have half a pound of pyrodex I bought in 1989 /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif ).

The original maximum load for IMR-4227 with the 250 grain bullet was 48 gr. with a muzzle velocity of 2,254fps. I've dropped to a 40 gr. charge (this might get me down around 1,800 fps instead of the 2,000fps reported earlier, but I don't care). As mentioned previously, I reduced the charge due to bullets blowing up on close shots (250 grain SST's were real bad at that) and the fact that I like the milder recoil. This mild load limits the shots I take to 150 yards. I'm ok with that. I don't know if I'm a good enough rifle shot to make a 200 or 300 yard shot since I don't practice it enough. Like bow hunting, I like my shots to be somewhat close and high percentage.

I do have one powder that I have shot that is not on the Savage recommended list. It is Vihtavouri N120. I picked it up because it was the "powder de jour" on the muzzleloading forums. It is still popular with many people and shines when a load is developed pushing a 300 grain bullet (usually a Barnes original .458 bullet with an orange MMP sabot). It needs the heavier bullet to burn efficiently since it is a "slower" powder. Long range accuracy is where this round shines, but with it comes recoil. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Some people go smokeless to "hot rod", I went for ease/lack of cleaning. I sight in preseason and clean the gun in January after seasons close. Did I mention I'm lazy? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Oh yeah, almost forgot that there are BP sub recommended loads (all with a 250 grain bullet) since I was trying to get away from their use. Good information if one plans to travel to a state where the use of smokeless in muzzleloaders is prohibited.
Pyrodex Pellets 150 grain (3-50 grain pellets) 1,955fps
Pyrodex "Select" 120 grain 1,694fps
FFg Triple Seven 120 grain 1,980fps
FFFg Triple Seven 120 grain 2,085fps
Triple Seven Pellets 100 grain (2-50 grain pellets)1,690fps
(remember that the manufacturer of Triple Seven does not recommend the use of three 50 grain pellets in ANY muzzleloader, most likely a liability issue).

[JNRBRONC]

I'm headed to a friends house tomorrow for some range time. He has upgraded his range from the last time I was down. Now, he has both 100 and 200 yard targets and you can sit inside to shoot. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I just weighed up a bunch of powder. I'm going to switch from the mild load I have been shooting the last couple of years to an elephant load. Stepping up 50 grains on the bullet and adding a couple of hundred fps. If all goes well, I should be able to hold dead on out to 225 yards.

So I'll be shooting varying powder charges, a heavier bullet and I'll be testing 3 different sabots. My shoulder should be nice and sore by the end of the session.

I was at Scheel's today looking at all kinds of bullets, bulk bullets in the hand loading section and sabot/bullet packs in the mz section. Man, they really gouge a guy for the convenience of packaging the sabots with the bullets! Tomorrow's load will be based around the Hornady .452 300 grain XTP (non-mag). I can get 50 of them for $15 (sabots extra). It costs at least that much for 15 prepackaged "loads" in the mz section.

Hopefully I'll have some good groups to share tomorrow night.

[Shovelbuck]

Looking forward to the results.

[blake]

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This should be interesting, please post the results of your shooting experiment when you can. And thanks for our input in this forum, we do appreciate your efforts. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
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[JNRBRONC]

Well, here is the best group of the day:
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/best_group.JPG

Look at how closely spaced those three scope cuts are! Shots #1 and #24 cut me with another one some where in the middle. I quit on shot #24. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

I was down at Jim's range about a year or so ago, dropping 250 grain XTP's on top of each other on the target shooting 40 grains of IMR 4227. That day, I shot three 300 grain XTP's with 60 grains of N120 powder and they shot about a foot lower than the other load. I didn't much care for the recoil of the N120 load that day, so I just put it on the back burner.

So some people on the internet were talking about the superior ballistic coefficient of the 300 grain XTP over the 250 XTP and how it helps on those long range shots. They talked about N120 giving great muzzle velocity. Also, N120 burns best behind a heavier projectile. It seemed that N120 and the 300 grain bullet were a match made in heaven, but I just spent a day in he!!

No offense to Jim, his place is awesome. It has dish TV, internet, fax/phone, running water, heat, and a refrigerator. I can honestly say I could live in it and I know I've lived in worse places than his "shooting shed". It was these accommodations that made this day survivable at all.

Jim has a sweet spotting scope set up at one window, you shoot out another. The image goes to a TV monitor by the shooting bench. I could actually watch bullets hit the target as Jim was shooting. He was shooting a Knight .45 and Blackhorn 209 powder.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/spotterscope.JPG

The targets needed slight adjustment so that both windows had a clear view. The target lower right is 100 yards, bowling pins at 125, next target is 150 and the final one at 200.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/medium/range.JPG

Like last year, the N120 300 grain XTP load was really low. One scope adjustment brought me real close to about 2 inches high at one hundred yards. I was hoping for 4 inches, but thought I'd see how the groups went. I wasn't getting what anybody would call good groups with the HPH12 sabot, so I thought I'd try some Harvester black crushed ribs. This sent my groups about a foot higher at 100 yards. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif A couple of shots at the 150 yard target were higher still and drifting right. I had some lesser charges of powder weighed up and with me, but I didn't want to introduce another variable at this point.

Jim dug out some Barnes 245 grain Spit Fires and shot the best group of the day with my Savage and the 60 grains of N120. They are in the top left of the upper left target. Kind of hard to see in the pic as there is a moire fringe thing going on.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/245spitfire.JPG

So what did I learn? This session reinforced what I already knew, I hate punishing recoil. I'm pretty much going to give up on this powder (N120) because even though it shows promise with the 245 grain Barnes (probably kicks it in excess of 2,200fps) I have heard that this powder is temperature sensitive and that this is exacerbated with lighter bullets. So come hunting season, the load I would spend all summer developing might become erratic.

I'm going to go back to IMR4227 and I think I'll pick up some N110 for the next range session. I'll grab another box of Hornady 250 grain XTP bullets, maybe even revisit the 250 SST now that I can get them in bulk.

We shot some .17HMR as well. I was able to put some close to the bull on the 200 yard target (left to right cross wind). A nice break from getting mule kicked all afternoon. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Shovelbuck]

Damn, that left a mark!
Seriously, thanks for the information. I've learned a lot thus far from this post.
Sweet shooting range setup. The TV monitor is an awesome idea.

[blake]

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Mercy, you are a dedicated shooter….I am sorry you were injured. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

This has been an interesting post thus far, very informational. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif



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Ron Wyllie
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[goatman]

Must be a lefty ehh? Interesting read.

[JNRBRONC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: goatman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Must be a lefty ehh? </div></div>

Nope, a righty. You can see the curve of the scope in the cut. The top left side of the scope was "catching" me.

[muddy]

that facial expression says it all!

good info too!

[Fishbonker]

SAWHEEET SET UP. But three close encounters with a scope before you quit? Probably hit your head so hard it messed up the zero.

The 'Bonker

[JNRBRONC]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fishbonker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Probably hit your head so hard it messed up the zero.

The 'Bonker </div></div>

The last cut was the biggest, but then Jim shot the best group of the day after I threw in the towel. I think the scope survived the day, though I have heard those types of loads are hard on scopes.

After placing an order for MMP black .50 cal sabots this morning, I looked on line for some Hornady 250 grain .452 XTPs. Two of the usually better priced businesses, Natchez and Midsouth Shooters, were out of stock. I ran to Scheel's over the lunch hour and found a box hidden behind some Hornady 250 grain .452 XTP MAGs. Bulk SST's don't appear to be available yet.

Getting back to work, I forgot that I had run out of Winchester 209 primers. I figured I'd swing through Fin & Feather on the way home and pick up a couple of boxes. Thought I'd check to see if they had any bullets. They didn't have any bullets, but I spied a jar of SR4759 and bought it in a moment of weakness.

Getting ready for the next range session. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

[Fishbonker]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JNRBRONC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....found a box hidden behind.... </div></div>

DAMNIT, I stashed that box last week thinking it would be safe until I needed them. Quit diggin around.

The 'Bonker

[Spitpatch]

Randy....had a good time . Call me when you're healed and ready for more punishment. Ha!

[JNRBRONC]

Pretty windy day yesterday, not much to report on. Here's a 150 yard "wind assisted" four shot string. The load was 43 grains of SR4759 behind a Harvester black crushed rib sabot cradleing a Hornady 300 grain XTP.
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/500/150yards.jpg

[JNRBRONC]

I was shaking my head after the last range session. The rifle was shooting worse than ever or was it me? Was it the load? Did I damage the scope with the heavy loads or did it get damaged when the rifle fell over and smacked the ground last winter? Were my mounts/rings loose?

I had a local gun shop place the order for the gun, rings and scope when I bought it. They mounted the scope for me. I opted for a Nikon Monarch UCC in 2X7X30mm. I figured the low mag would be good for close work in thick brush. I never have been one to want to shoot across the section, so figured the 7X top side would never be a limiting factor. Well, I've been starting to second guess that. I came across a new scope (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=435025) that I thought I would give a try. For what it costs, figured I didn't have much to lose and I've read numerous positive hunting forum reviews from other owners. It gains me 2X on the top end will going from 30 to a 40mm objective. The most common criticism I have heard are that it is big, bulky, heavy, and ugly. I can live with that. :grin:

The scope arrived last week and I decided to mount it on the gun this morning. Taking off the Nikon, I found two screws that were loose. Rather bittersweet, I might have found what was causing the rifle to string left to right. I might have spent some money that I didn't need to, but now I have a spare scope (the Nikon) and as stated, gained 2X and 10mm in objective size. My next purchase really should be a better set of mounts/rings as I've never been impressed with the set the gun store selected. (Hint: never order a rifle (let alone a ML rifle) from a private gun store that specializes in handguns. They came highly recommended by a friend.)

Way too windy today to do any meaningful range time.

[Shovelbuck]

Sounds like you have a good extra scope. Let us know how it shoots with the new one.

[JNRBRONC]

Finally got out to shoot this morning. While thinking about how the scope had come loose, I decided that I wanted to change bases and rings. I bought two Weaver S46 bases and a set of "permanent" Warne rings from Brownells. I torqued everything pretty well, used lock tite on the bases.

I decided to try the "30 yard sight in" that was suggested here. First shot, off the paper. I moved the target in to 20 yards and clipped the edge of it. I was shooting off a varminter rest, so I set the rifle on the rest, aiming where I had held for the last shot, then adjusted the scope to the bullet hole on the edge of the target. The next shot is dead center, so let's go to 100 yards.

I had a "surveryor's measuring wheel" and rolled out to 100 yards. The first group wasn't that great. The first two shots grouped somewhat ok, but the third shot was a "flyer". I had noticed that it went down the barrel a little easier than the previous two. Not sure why or if that was the reason for the flyer.

The next group is shown below!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/jnrbronc/rangecrop.jpg

Like it says, I was shooting 42.5 grains of 4759 behind a Hornady 250 grain XTP bullet held in a short black MMP sabot with a Federal 209 primer. I'll play around a little more over the summer, but I think I've found what I'll be shooting this fall. Some people use around 45 grains of 4759, so they might consider this a mild load. I think Jim picked up a chronograph, so when I get back down to his range, I'll see where I am FPS wise.

Almost forgot about the scope:this was the maiden voyage of the HiLux 3X9X40mm Toby Bridges special. All I'll say is that it is adequate, won't go as far as endorsing it yet.

[Shovelbuck]

Looking good. This has been a great post so far! Thanks!

[Liv4Rut]

I looked at one of these guns the other day at Cabela's but was a little confused. It said Savage ML10 BP on the label, then on the label said for Blackhorn 209, Pyrodex, Hot Shots. It didn't say anything about smokeless, unless a Hot Shot is smokeless. I wasn't sure. Does Savage make a couple different models, one for smokeless and one not for smokeless? The gun felt great in the hands but it had a camo synthetic camo stock and there appeared to many imperfections (White spots) all throughout the stock. That was kind of strange. I'd get a black one or wood stock anyways.

Have you ever shot XTP's before in the past? From what I have seen as well as 5 other guys in our group they are tack drivers, however we have all switched to different bullets because we could never get a descent blood trail with them with more than a few drops. They blow right through with them with little expansion. I was just wondering, we haven't shot them in 4-5 years so maybe they changed them.

[JNRBRONC]

Savage just released a BP only version, a very STUPID move IMO! They were getting resistance from gun stores that did not want to carry the smokeless version because of perceived liability issues (my guess). Also, as with any company, they are trying to grow market share by releasing a different model (again, my guess). So they released a BP only rifle to compete with the T/C's, Knight's, CVA's, etc. What business model says its a good idea to enter a saturated market?:confused:

So if anybody was worried about liability, wait until somebody shoots smokeless in the BP version and claims "I heard Savages can shoot smokeless". The good thing is that I heard it is essentially the same gun so it should handle smokeless if a person makes this mistake, but don't take my word for it!

And yes, the synthetic factory stock has gained the nickname "tupperware". I bought the camo synthetic stock on my ML10II because a gun to me is a tool and I don't want to worry about scratching up a fancy stock in the field. If I was to buy a new one today, I'd seriously look at the wood laminate stock. The only down side to it in my mind is that it adds more weight to an already heavy gun.

In regards to the XTP's, which ones was your group shooting? The 300 grain XTPs punch right through for me as you mention, not doing much damage. That is the non-magnum 300 grain XTP and the 300 grain XTP MAG is supposed to be even worse for this. I've settled on the 250 grain XTP and a powder charge that gets me around 1,900 fps. The XTP's were developed for pistols at much lower velocities. I did start off with 250 grain SST's pushed a little faster than that and they were essentially grenades, with explosive fragmentation. I've got pieces of them I have recovered from deer, the jackets almost always separated from the lead core. Between blowing up and the cost, I've settled on the 250 grain XTP.

There are tons of "specialty" ML bullets out there that one can try, ( PR Bullets (http://www.prbullet.com/), Spitfire TMZ (http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0037633216146a.shtml) ), I just don't feel the need to pay $1 or more per bullet.:confused: It all comes down to placing them in the boiler room!;)

[JNRBRONC]

I was looking around the web, trying to get an appreciation for what kind of velocity I was obtaining with the powder/bullet combination I was shooting last Saturday. I found the following data where the velocity was actually chronographed.

250gr XTP
MMP short black sabot
43grs SR4759
Fed. 209A
2273fps avg.

300gr XTP
MMP short black sabot
42grs SR4759
Fed. 209A
2126fps avg.


I'm guessing I was shooting right around 2,220 fps. I'll be plenty happy with this combination of speed and recoil. :way: