New high oil corn?

[Sligh1]

If u have plenty of “plots” but u lack on browse due to too many deer- will impact top end no question. You will have a lot less stress & larger deer & healthier when you have food into spring. If you have BOTH…. Plenty natural browse (always about 50% their diet & what they need for nutrition) - that’s ideal. That’s the part of how to get bucks to their peak. If u are missing some or both- no doubt it will impact health & size of bucks & all deer there.
To have a farm produce 5 year old mature bucks…. & several of them, on small farms, it’s absolutely possible. In many places in iowa. Yes, there’s tons of variables & more reasons I hear why you can’t (many of which are incorrect) - I think most small farms in iowa have some potential of having 1 or multiple 5 year plus deer on them. Long discussion but doable in many cases.
*to one above point^^^^^….. NO ONE has it down 100% period. No one ever has or will. Period. Spot on.

 

[Rous14]

If u have plenty of “plots” but u lack on browse due to too many deer- will impact top end no question. You will have a lot less stress & larger deer & healthier when you have food into spring. If you have BOTH…. Plenty natural browse (always about 50% their diet & what they need for nutrition) - that’s ideal. That’s the part of how to get bucks to their peak. If u are missing some or both- no doubt it will impact health & size of bucks & all deer there.
To have a farm produce 5 year old mature bucks…. & several of them, on small farms, it’s absolutely possible. In many places in iowa. Yes, there’s tons of variables & more reasons I hear why you can’t (many of which are incorrect) - I think most small farms in iowa have some potential of having 1 or multiple 5 year plus deer on them. Long discussion but doable in many cases.
*to one above point^^^^^….. NO ONE has it down 100% period. No one ever has or will. Period. Spot on.

Sligh I think you’ve said you were from Michigan at one point and I live here too so you’ll know what I’m talking about here. The only part of Tonys deal and your comment above about small farms holding multiple mature bucks that kinda has me re thinking most of what I’ve always read & heard is that if you drew a 2 mile radius all around Tonys farm, heck make it a 5 mile radius, there most likely isn’t another 4-5yr old deer anywhere in that circle. So I guess I’m just surprised a little bit that multiple mature bucks would tolerate each other’s presence all fall in 52ac parcel when they could so easily have any other area in that circle to themselves. Like you said, many factors & variables, namely pressure and I get that but are you somewhat surprised that they would tolerate each other like that when they don’t have to? I think Iowa is different, same w my farm in IL in that a mature buck is very likely to encounter more mature bucks any direction he goes so they kinda don’t have a choice if that makes sense??

 

[Rous14]

Another example would be that I’ve heard Don Higgins say he tries to shoot the inferior 3-4 yr olds on his farm not because he thinks he can impact the genetics on his farm but because he feels his farm will only hold a small number of mature bucks. He’s essentially trying to pick the 2 or 3 bucks that will advance to the next age class because any more than that and he can’t control which ones will essentially relocate or get ran off. Don obviously has a much larger farm and manages it as well as Tony. This theory would seem to directly conflict with what Tony is accomplishing.

 

[northcedar]

How big is Don's farm? Does he own multiple places? I thought his place was a pretty small isolated woods in the middle of farmland, like 80 acres or something.

 

[Wi transplant]

How big is Don's farm? Does he own multiple places? I thought his place was a pretty small isolated woods in the middle of farmland, like 80 acres or something.

I believe his farm is 120 total but about 80 is or so is deer habitat.

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[tall@wide]

Another example would be that I’ve heard Don Higgins say he tries to shoot the inferior 3-4 yr olds on his farm not because he thinks he can impact the genetics on his farm but because he feels his farm will only hold a small number of mature bucks. He’s essentially trying to pick the 2 or 3 bucks that will advance to the next age class because any more than that and he can’t control which ones will essentially relocate or get ran off. Don obviously has a much larger farm and manages it as well as Tony. This theory would seem to directly conflict with what Tony is accomplishing.

I believe Don's strategy is solid. I don't believe mature bucks can live in the same small area during the rut. I think their ranges can overlap but they cannot live in the same small area. They will eventually fight over a doe and one will be pushed away. If I have two mature bucks in a smaller part of my farm during the summer, I always figure If I want to shoot one of them I better do it early in the season because one of them always gets pushed away in late October. I have not listened to Tony talk, but I do not see how he keeps so many mature bucks living in a small area during the rut.

 

[Wi transplant]

I believe Don's strategy is solid. I don't believe mature bucks can live in the same small area during the rut. I think their ranges can overlap but they cannot live in the same small area. They will eventually fight over a doe and one will be pushed away. If I have two mature bucks in a smaller part of my farm during the summer, I always figure If I want to shoot one of them I better do it early in the season because one of them always gets pushed away in late October. I have not listened to Tony talk, but I do not see how he keeps so many mature bucks living in a small area during the rut.

One must remember that the gun season starts nov 15th so middle of rut and i believe tony's place is the "safe zone" just like dons is and when the orange army moves in theres a major flow of deer back into there properties! And with enough does in heat there it keeps the boys on there pc and happy!

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[IowaBowHunter1983]

I believe his farm is 120 total but about 80 is or so is deer habitat.

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yeah and he leases WAAAAAAY more than that. Buying more farms too.

 

[Wi transplant]

The one thing that i see about both don and tonys farms is they are isolated from adjacent cover! Tony has road on 2 sides and open fields on other 2 and don i believe has road on one side and open ag surrounding his. So for a mature deer to wander off there properties he must expose himself or wait till dark! I think if you have thick cover touching your pc its easier for them to wander !

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[Sligh1]

Sligh I think you’ve said you were from Michigan at one point and I live here too so you’ll know what I’m talking about here. The only part of Tonys deal and your comment above about small farms holding multiple mature bucks that kinda has me re thinking most of what I’ve always read & heard is that if you drew a 2 mile radius all around Tonys farm, heck make it a 5 mile radius, there most likely isn’t another 4-5yr old deer anywhere in that circle. So I guess I’m just surprised a little bit that multiple mature bucks would tolerate each other’s presence all fall in 52ac parcel when they could so easily have any other area in that circle to themselves. Like you said, many factors & variables, namely pressure and I get that but are you somewhat surprised that they would tolerate each other like that when they don’t have to? I think Iowa is different, same w my farm in IL in that a mature buck is very likely to encounter more mature bucks any direction he goes so they kinda don’t have a choice if that makes sense??

Ya- from MI. Where I’m from- having a 2 year old is a “pretty big deal”. For my entire life there - I watched 1.5’s get roasted non-stop & I had seasons as a youngster where I didn’t get one glimpse at a 2.5 year old buck…. I would say I saw about 5-7 bucks PER SEASON (1.5 year olds) in several areas I hunted.
The southern tier is for sure the best- bottom 2-3 counties along bottom side of MI. It’s very similar for nutrition & cover to S iowa. The hunting pressure, IMO, isn’t incredibly different believe it or not. I personally think they are very comparable hunting/land situations. In MI- on the average farm- u be lucky to have a 3.5 year old. Very lucky. In iowa- even on average farms - u will have 5.5’s on it or traveling through periodically. Put it this way…. I’ve had countless buddies come hunt or sit with me who own land in S MI…. They have sat stuff like “my 80 acres with a food plot”….. I’ve heard this statement COUNTLESS times…. “I saw more big deer in one night in iowa than I have my whole life in MI”. No joke. This is on ground that looks very similar, equal nutrition & cover & fairly similar hunting pressure. That’s how bad MI is or how good Iowa is ….. almost entirely due to regulations!!! MI has guns in middle of rut, 2 bucks for anyone & crossbows & countless hunting seasons. U guys have no clue how bad other states are!!!!! If u haven’t hunted them. Yes- a realistic goal in MI is to pimp your land so hard core u might get a 3-4 year old on it or maybe have a couple in a magic situation. In a normal situation- setting up to have a 2-3 year old is huge. Having 5.5’s can be done but it’s so rare….. it just takes such a unique & lucky scenario to have that in MI. I personally have never seen or hunted a farm like that there. They exist but what’s common in iowa is so rare in MI that I can’t think of any farm in the whole state that produces what the average farm in iowa does. Please folks, if u grasp one thing here…. Understand that iowa is so far ahead of other states due to regs. Other states suck so bad & the hunting has been so degraded- those people flee those places every year to hunt: IA, Canada, KS, OH, KY, out west, some pockets in IL, etc.
Sorry on the rant. Back on track - yes, anyone in any state can make “60 acres” immensely better than: 1) they found it & 2) the general area’s situation…. Whatever that area produces on average - u can make your farm the “top tier” for that area even if small. & likely hold vastly more older bucks than other areas. When your ground is “safe” & others are pounded - u can stack bucks due to pure survival & u providing all of their needs. Must load with premium bedding areas & lots of em. Low pressure, plenty food, etc etc. Those deer need to know they don’t need to travel far for all of their needs. Won’t save em all but sure can make it exponentially better.

 

[northcedar]

I wonder if any of the farm owners adjoining those guys' places ever consider leaving a few acres of standing corn and dragging some of those mature bucks out from their island.

 

[Daver]

Another example would be that I’ve heard Don Higgins say he tries to shoot the inferior 3-4 yr olds on his farm not because he thinks he can impact the genetics on his farm but because he feels his farm will only hold a small number of mature bucks. He’s essentially trying to pick the 2 or 3 bucks that will advance to the next age class because any more than that and he can’t control which ones will essentially relocate or get ran off. Don obviously has a much larger farm and manages it as well as Tony. This theory would seem to directly conflict with what Tony is accomplishing.

FWIW, I believe Don's farm is just 120 acres, so still not big by almost any standard. Yes, bigger than LaPratt's, but not real big otherwise. Higgins does have mostly bare ag ground surrounding him and apparently doesn't have "fence sitters" to deal with, etc, so that certainly makes his ground "bigger". But he wrings an incredible amount out of a pretty small footprint IMO.

The lessons from both guys though are noteworthy to me...if you really trick out the property you do have AND also not overhunt it, etc, you can do some pretty awesome things with pretty small properties.

 

[Daver]

I wonder if any of the farm owners adjoining those guys' places ever consider leaving a few acres of standing corn and dragging some of those mature bucks out from their island.

Don recently commented that his neighbors know he is trying to grow giants and appear to support him by not doing just that. ^^ FWIW. I suspect that he is well aware that he would be vulnerable to anyone that chose to hunt off of his edges, but that doesn't sound like he is facing that at this time.

 

[Sligh1]

I wonder if any of the farm owners adjoining those guys' places ever consider leaving a few acres of standing corn and dragging some of those mature bucks out from their island.

For sure!!!!! Any farm that gets “better” , “holds big bucks”, “good hunting”, etc…. Absolutely folks pick up on that. Being one who has improved a small farm.. all the sudden stands pop up all over the fences. Blinds & plots next to u appear. It happens all the time. I know for some folks it bothers them when it happens- others just accept it. Sometimes it’s done respectfully & sometimes it’s incredibly distasteful…. Lot of variables there but yes, happens all the time across the country. “Build it and they will come” - that includes deer but it also includes other hunters who see opportunities.

 

[Daver]

... I’ve heard this statement COUNTLESS times…. “I saw more big deer in one night in iowa than I have my whole life in MI”. No joke. This is on ground that looks very similar, equal nutrition & cover & fairly similar hunting pressure. That’s how bad MI is or how good Iowa is ….. almost entirely due to regulations!!! ...

I'll echo these comments. ^^ I hosted an out of state hunter this past fall and even though he ended up not filling his tag, he had the whitetail hunt of his lifetime. He lives in an area of Tennessee that sounds like a lot of other areas in this country where the bucks are never allowed to grow old. By the description of the habitat...they sure could, but the regulations and hunter habits keep the buck population "young" at all times.

To me, the hunting was slow the week he was here and I was kind of feeling bad for him..to him though, it was the best deer hunting that he had ever experienced and he was jacked at all times. We Iowans need to understand how good we have it AND that we have it so good because primarily because of our regs. Yet...special interests keep trying to twist the regs every year so as to meet their specific wishes, etc.

 

[Rous14]

Ya- from MI. Where I’m from- having a 2 year old is a “pretty big deal”. For my entire life there - I watched 1.5’s get roasted non-stop & I had seasons as a youngster where I didn’t get one glimpse at a 2.5 year old buck…. I would say I saw about 5-7 bucks PER SEASON (1.5 year olds) in several areas I hunted.
The southern tier is for sure the best- bottom 2-3 counties along bottom side of MI. It’s very similar for nutrition & cover to S iowa. The hunting pressure, IMO, isn’t incredibly different believe it or not. I personally think they are very comparable hunting/land situations. In MI- on the average farm- u be lucky to have a 3.5 year old. Very lucky. In iowa- even on average farms - u will have 5.5’s on it or traveling through periodically. Put it this way…. I’ve had countless buddies come hunt or sit with me who own land in S MI…. They have sat stuff like “my 80 acres with a food plot”….. I’ve heard this statement COUNTLESS times…. “I saw more big deer in one night in iowa than I have my whole life in MI”. No joke. This is on ground that looks very similar, equal nutrition & cover & fairly similar hunting pressure. That’s how bad MI is or how good Iowa is ….. almost entirely due to regulations!!! MI has guns in middle of rut, 2 bucks for anyone & crossbows & countless hunting seasons. U guys have no clue how bad other states are!!!!! If u haven’t hunted them. Yes- a realistic goal in MI is to pimp your land so hard core u might get a 3-4 year old on it or maybe have a couple in a magic situation. In a normal situation- setting up to have a 2-3 year old is huge. Having 5.5’s can be done but it’s so rare….. it just takes such a unique & lucky scenario to have that in MI. I personally have never seen or hunted a farm like that there. They exist but what’s common in iowa is so rare in MI that I can’t think of any farm in the whole state that produces what the average farm in iowa does. Please folks, if u grasp one thing here…. Understand that iowa is so far ahead of other states due to regs. Other states suck so bad & the hunting has been so degraded- those people flee those places every year to hunt: IA, Canada, KS, OH, KY, out west, some pockets in IL, etc.
Sorry on the rant. Back on track - yes, anyone in any state can make “60 acres” immensely better than: 1) they found it & 2) the general area’s situation…. Whatever that area produces on average - u can make your farm the “top tier” for that area even if small. & likely hold vastly more older bucks than other areas. When your ground is “safe” & others are pounded - u can stack bucks due to pure survival & u providing all of their needs. Must load with premium bedding areas & lots of em. Low pressure, plenty food, etc etc. Those deer need to know they don’t need to travel far for all of their needs. Won’t save em all but sure can make it exponentially better.

Yep. I’ve hunted MI all my life, hunted IL for the last 15ish years and hunted Iowa a few times. Truly amazing how drastic the differences are. Our southern counties on the Indiana border are the best the state has to offer and yet everything you said here is true Skip. I do think that the parcels in your average block in MI are way more broke up and smaller than what I have in IL and what I believe Iowa to be and that does make a huge difference too. You might get 4 guys hunting on 40 acres here in MI and 4 guys hunting on a 240 acre piece in IL/IA. So the total number of guns/weapons that a buck has to miraculously avoid in any particular square mile in MI is significantly higher. They just don’t have a chance. Plus I also think that being home to guys like Fred Bear and Ted Nugent who were the best ever at promoting our great sport/pastime we have more hunters in general than most states. So I’m not sure I’d say the pressure is the same but I get your point and we definitely agree.
It’s why, for me anyway, as impressive as what guys like Don Higgins, the Drurys, Lakoskys, guys on this very site etc... are doing, I think what Tony is accomplishing is significantly more impressive than any of them.

 

[Bassattackr]

both don and tonys farms is they are isolated from adjacent cover! Tony has road on 2 sides and open fields on other 2 and don i believe has road on one side and open ag surrounding his.

I believe it is for this reason that their farms are so great - They are isolated from the surrounding areas. They have to expose themselves across a road or open farmland in the daylight to leave, not something a mature buck wants to do.

Second Point - Don openly admits he hasn't taken a doe off his place in years. Tony wants a 1:5 buck to doe ratio.

See a pattern here? An isolated property with a thick doe population should in theory be able to hold (or pull) more mature bucks in. 5 to 1 ratio?? Ain't nobody fighting for women there on that utopia island..

 

[Wi transplant]

Tonys idea is every square ft should be utilized! Either food or cover! No wasted un used acres just sitting there!! 95pct of crp is useless for deer !! Doesnt hide them doesn't feed them!! Wasted land!!

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[Wi transplant]

One of my favorite analogies from tony was this . If you have a mile long straight stretch of river and the whole thing is 6 to 8 ft deep where are the fish going to be???? Anywhere right its all the same !! Now take dynamite and blow some deep holes in one area and put a bunch of big stumps and structure in those holes . Now ! Where are all the fish going to be???? Same for deer ! You just nerd to be different/ better than whats around you! Of lots of food ploting around you then maybe you can use high oil beans n corn to seperate yourself. If your the only plots around any decent plots will work!!!

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[IowaBowHunter1983]

Don recently commented that his neighbors know he is trying to grow giants and appear to support him by not doing just that. ^^ FWIW. I suspect that he is well aware that he would be vulnerable to anyone that chose to hunt off of his edges, but that doesn't sound like he is facing that at this time.

Don leases everything around him to prevent that the way I understand it....