I listened to this. And I couldn’t agree more, have thought many times about how there arent deer hanging all over the place in November like there used to be. How there just iisn’t land that a normal working man can hunt like there used to be. Have thought about how the “cool guys” only shoot wall hangers. Had not put together the pieces on leasing ground and it’s affects.
Skip is also right about the legislators. Going off half cocked with populist legislation is what these legislators do now. Gotta be careful of that. Gotta put easily understandable figures onto paper for them, our goal with this stuff is to make them look smart with the least effort on their part for constituents instead of going the “kill all the deer“ route.
They say we get the government we deserve. That means something different to me than what it means to most people right now but I think it applies here.
Skip is also right about the legislators. Going off half cocked with populist legislation is what these legislators do now. Gotta be careful of that. Gotta put easily understandable figures onto paper for them, our goal with this stuff is to make them look smart with the least effort on their part for constituents instead of going the “kill all the deer“ route.
They say we get the government we deserve. That means something different to me than what it means to most people right now but I think it applies here.
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@Sligh1
I wonder if you have any posts or summaries of your thoughts on this kind of issue? Something we could use as a template make our own letter or email to send to legislators?
My local state rep is the house republican leader and is from a rural county in Illinois. I think she would pay attention to this issue.
I wonder if you have any posts or summaries of your thoughts on this kind of issue? Something we could use as a template make our own letter or email to send to legislators?
My local state rep is the house republican leader and is from a rural county in Illinois. I think she would pay attention to this issue.
Absolutely. Lemme work on this. What I’ve done in the past…. Take any issue & write about 10 versions of the same point or rather…. A variety of emails that concisely spell out issues.
Very similar to the “voter voice” email system that IBA uses…. That’s really what any group needs- a system like voter voice so masses can send in emails, etc. I throw up a few examples - no prob.
Rous14
PMA Member
“The problem” is referenced a few times there Skip but I’m a little confused as to what you/we’re defining as the problem? Is it just the rare areas of high density/crop damage that is being discussed? If so, makes sense. But I still feel like as hunters we need to be on the offensive about deer numbers being low instead of on the defensive and trying to discuss why & how doe populations aren’t being handled well. You touch on it, which I appreciate, but we need those with a platform to stand up and yell that all the metrics show that the herd is WAY down compared to 10 years ago. Most hunters don’t know that so certainly most farmers have no clue! But that’s very important information that can greatly influence public perception.
I can definitely speak to west central IL and the only problem there, imo, is the overall herd numbers have been significantly reduced. And that’s true in most of the Midwest primarily as a result of the ehd outbreak in 12 and 13. There isn’t a “nobody is shooting does problem“ because does don’t need to be killed (at least at any great quantity). I’m not sure the buck to doe ratio is measurably different than it’s ever been there either, again just far less of both. Does anyone know of any data out there that tracks buck:doe ratios? Just not buying that there’s a doe problem anywhere outside of 5-10% of the farms in the Midwest and certainly not in IL.
I can definitely speak to west central IL and the only problem there, imo, is the overall herd numbers have been significantly reduced. And that’s true in most of the Midwest primarily as a result of the ehd outbreak in 12 and 13. There isn’t a “nobody is shooting does problem“ because does don’t need to be killed (at least at any great quantity). I’m not sure the buck to doe ratio is measurably different than it’s ever been there either, again just far less of both. Does anyone know of any data out there that tracks buck:doe ratios? Just not buying that there’s a doe problem anywhere outside of 5-10% of the farms in the Midwest and certainly not in IL.
tall@wide
PMA Member
I had a couple farms in Schuyler County illinois that I sold a couple years ago. The doe population on my farms was extremely high and the buck doe ratio was around 7 to1. Lots of farmers in my area (sugar creek), got permits to shoot does in the summer. Very few hunters were shooting does and everyone was shooting the young, good genetic bucks..Once i saw the damage to age structure that crossbows were causing, i bailed out of illinois and sold everything there. I will add that raccoons did a lot of crop damage and even my farmer talked about this..He said they go down the rows after planting and dig the corn up. They also hammer the corn while it's growing.
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Rous14
PMA Member
There are 40-50,000! less deer being killed in IL than there used to be (because there are far fewer deer) so that’s the main reason you’re not seeing them hanging everywhere. The 2000’s had outfitters everywhere which means there were NR hunters everywhere and yet the harvest was 50,000 more deer than today with far fewer outfitters…..tells me the idea of nr’s not controlling deer numbers while technically probably true is playing a very minor role here.
Rous14
PMA Member
No question the age structure is way worse, primarily bc of way less deer coupled with more efficient ways of killing them (I.e. crossbows) but I am definitely not experiencing the doe ratio being out of whack like you are saying. The harvest was around 45% does and 55% bucks last year in IL. That’s pretty dang good. In 2005 it was 46/54 respectively.
IL hunters, based on those statistics, are not killing less does than usual so thats why I’m not 100% in agreement with Skip on the NR thing. NR landowners definitely manage their farms better than the avg resident in any given state. NR hunters that come in and hunt with outfitters probably true but not by any measurable significance as these stats show.
tall@wide
PMA Member
I believe you on the information you shared but in my area no one was shooting does..it was mostly leased farms with non resident hunters and they came to shoot a buck. Even some of the big landowners near me were not shooting does.
Yes- it’s rare where the problem is real. They do exist.
What happens in a lot of areas in IL (& MO, MI, WI, etc)….. u might see a property with say 20-25 does & maybe see a few bucks 2-3 years old. Maybe a 4-5 year old on rare occasion. Most the does will get a pass & the first/best genetic 2-3 year old buck gets targeted & shot. Happens the most with perhaps outfitters as a “stereotyped group” but id say the model of “shoot the best rack buck regardless of age” is clearly far more prevalent in these liberalized exploited places. The more it’s “no limits on: NR’s, outfitters, infinite weapons & seasons, multiple buck tags, etc” - those places the bucks are being hunted far too hard & the age structure is wildly out of whack. Those are the places I see more does & low age class bucks.
There are countless regions now where there’s simply no deer. N of 80…. Our density is crazy low. Age class is irrelevent as there’s few deer in countless pockets now. I’m sure IL has regions like this as well. Most states have regions with “lots of deer” & regions with “very few”. Some of that is clearly habitat. Some is over killing. Theres a rare few pockets in iowa with too many deer. Maybe a few pockets in VB county where guys lock up land & no one stays on the does. It’s extremely rare. In counties I’m in, we are “medium” at best. I said “high” but in reality- we aren’t even remotely close to carrying capacity. We have some Amish folks down the road in several directions where the kids ask if they can shoot does …. Every year. They own land. I ask “no does there?” I’m on to it now but they always say “family shot em all. We don’t even see any deer”. In areas u think would be premo. Last 2 years I told em “sorry, I don’t need any does shot” …. & I don’t. If I did- I’d shoot em but we don’t. We probably will shoot a few for meat but only what’s needed. I’m in an area that was historically very high for deer…. It’s gone to “I don’t need to shoot a single doe”. It does & could change 5-10 miles away if someone has an unmanaged section with no one shooting does. It’s so region specific. That’s also why it’s so hard to regulate…. Populations can fluctuate so much in just 5 miles!!