EVERYTHING has its +/-‘s & there’s no regulations or regulation changes that will make all people happen all the time! Every state has problems- even “the best” are facing some of same problems of “the worst”. Or perhaps OTHER bad regulations. No perfect state or system & EVERY STATE has room to improve. EARLY VS LATE GUN SEASONS….
The late gun seasons in states that have them…. Specifically, Ohio, KS & Iowa…. I’ll admit… I personally have a VERY hard time coming up with “this is the downside of that” …. But I’m gonna try. On the other side, it’s a laundry list of downsides with early gun. Am I coming at this with my mind made up? Sure…. But I am trying to: 1) be fair here & take an open mind & 2) actually write this out so what I think is clear can sit there on its own merits for people to think through …. Or challenge or disagree with. Tell me where I’m right, wrong or what I missed ….
DOWNSIDES & LOSERS DUE TO EARLY GUN:
-BOWHUNTERS. In all the early gun states I’ve hunted in- they get a few evenings in October & maybe a morning that’s decent. Then- the rut they waited for, maybe get 4-5 days of action on average since part of it ends up being so warm. After gun most don’t go out & it’s pointless if you do
-Age class of deer! All the states I’ve spent time in with early gun have a huge portion of their harvest as 1 or 2 year olds. Finding 5+ year olds in these states is incredibly rare & night & day different vs their neighbors with late gun. NOT EVEN COMPARABLE
- too many does (along with too few older bucks). The hunters are so competitive with “I gotta get my buck” they don’t want to screw their hunts up blasting does. The amount of “good hunting days” is so few that they again don’t take the time to shoot does. There’s cases in the FAR NORTH with “too few deer” of course but…. States like MI in the southern tier or MO in the northern tier- cannot get folks to shoot does. There’s other reasons as well…. Wide open NR access (in any state) will also cause this along with the leasing & OUTFITTING that also ties ground up where few to no does are shot & bucks targeted.
-quality goes down, restrictions on access go up & hunter #’s decline: this is also a bit of a mixed bag to cause & effect with some other regs in place with +/- impact (bait, 1 or 2 bucks, NR tag quotas, etc). I’ll use the state of MI punching bag example I often use (along with many other states just like it)…. 1/3rd the hunters quit in 25 years. Far higher than “better states”. “IT SUCKS” is the #1 reason why … & it sucks largely due to guns in middle of rut & next is the 2 bucks but far after the gun timing. It also sucks as hunters don’t have access to quality land or quality experiences. The fewer hunters that remain fight & work their tails off to lock up land, make co-ops, remove hunting pressure, lease land, etc - so the HUNTING DOESN’T SUCK. This lock up - to an extreme degree- is far worse than better states (yes, this happens all over. But it’s far worse in MI or say MO vs IA, etc etc). The few hunters lock the land up to insulate from horrid regs & the rest get thrown to the “scraps” where MOST the time it sucks balls … & those folks either suffer through it or throw in the towel.
-NO LATE SEASON HUNTING. Sure, it exists as these states have 5 million seasons, unlimited quotas with any weapon you want. But…. Day 3 of gun…. About when 90% of guys go “well, that’s a wrap, we ruined it and all the bucks are dead. Season is over. you go and freeze late season & maybe you’re in an area where there’s enough does to see things but hunting for a buck like pre-gun… almost pointless.
-HOT GUN SEASON. It could be cold but I’m gonna say over half the gun seasons of my life in early states were warm to hot. Like 50 to maybe 60’s-70’s on rarer occasions. So hot the deer movement slows & if you shoot a deer… you better process immediately. Not a huge deal but very common to have cookers for opening gun seasons where it’s very uncomfortable.
-SHED HUNTING : ha. Funny. I know folks find em but 10+ years in MI - I never found ONE shed. That’s anecdotal & I know folks find some but nothing like late gun states.
-Serious hunters lose & leave. Kill all the bucks- they flee to better states. Or they quit.
PRO’S TO EARLY GUN:
-Tradition & consistent timing. Some states have the same date every year (MI for example). Some states it changes with weekends. Folks have a set schedule & tradition of “deer camp” & when they hunt that’s been rooted for sometimes many decades.
-More Buck activity (perceived)…. Rutting bucks running around like crazy. “I see more deer”. Action packed. Now- does are hiding during the rut & most the bucks folks see are younger bucks due to the defined lower age class. They see a perceived “more deer” for the few days it’s good until things are blown up.
-More comfortable conditions & weather: not the brutal late season conditions. Generally not a foot of snow or temps that force guys in. Now, a 2 week difference is generally 2-3 degrees difference on average. But for sure less of a chance to be in a big winter storm, etc. Northern areas like N MI, N MN, N WI for sure have some issues with the late November or snowfall. IF CHANGE DATE in NORTHERN AREAS… An example for changing gun season dates could be- in the lower half of the state but not the upper half. OR - have the early gun up north but make it shorter. OR- push the gun season back up north but offer another season similar to Iowas early ML season for those that don’t want to deal with weather. Iowas early ML is genius cause it gives the dudes an option for a week of gun if they don’t want the later season & temps.
DOWNSIDES TO LATE GUN
-NOT AS MUCH RUT ACTIVITY… secondary rut is going but it’s for sure slowed since the craze of mid Nov. more hunts are on food or traveling to & from or hunts could take place trying to see bigger expanses of forest or valleys.
-COLDER TEMPS … can be uncomfortable to some & in iowa there could be some snow. Rarely in kansas but possible. May need: a blind, hand warmers, heavier clothes, etc. I will refrain from making comments about girly-men or sissies.
. It’s for sure colder & could have ice or snow, etc.
-OLDER BUCKS HARDER TO SEE… but we actually do HAVE older bucks!!!! But yes, bucks of any age, especially older, are more cautious & have their guards up now.
-FLOOD OF HUNTERS FROM EARLY GUN STATES!! They flee their broken states to hop the border to late gun states. See it all over in OH, IA & KS. Over-run with demand to hunt there from folks fleeing their broken states to hunt the same animal in same habitat BUT an animal that has an older age class in the herd! Great managed states are punished because they attract people who flee their broken systems
PRO’S TO LATE GUN:
-Farmers are done with harvest. They can participate in gun season where earlier in year they are locked up.
-AGE CLASS & Amount of older bucks- staggeringly higher amount of them. Night & day difference. Universes apart. It’s better for the serious hunter, biology, resource. It retains hunters at a far higher rate & it’s incredibly fun to be able to be in average areas where mature bucks exist. The list is endless as to the benefits of older bucks. ENDLESS!!! Can charge “whatever you want” for tags as so many want to come there. Have to limit those tags so it’s not over run but folks want to hunt there vs quitting “cause it sucks” Main reason folks quit in late gun states - so many want to hunt there they lock the land up. Or they do get concerned about other bad regulations & insulate themselves like happens in other states. Hunting Economy is far more robust than in poor quality states. The serious Resident hunters don’t have to flee each fall. On & on!
-Culture & tradition of shed hunting - it’s like a month long holiday here. A month long in nature & actually having success!
-incredible hunting after gun season!! Go gun 2, late ML…. Guys LOVE IT. Is it difficult? Sure. But it’s darn good!!! Unlike states that are ruined 3 days in for the rest of the season. You literally can have excellent hunting to the last day
-effective doe harvest. TOO EFFECTIVE!!! Our doe harvest in S iowa vs across line in MO- we kill way more does. They are visible during gun season. Guys know they have 4 months of great hunting to shoot a buck so don’t mind “ruining a hunt” to shoot a doe. Land is less locked up in S iowa (where it’s bad, make no mistake) vs N mo. Way worse in MO. leasing, outfitting & NR ownsership. All situations few does are shot. Residents widely kill “too many” does on iowa side.
-BOW HUNTERS PARADISE!!!!!! It’s good for MONTHS!!!!!!!! Literally, there’s like “45 good days” a guy might wanna be out when it’s “good conditions” & deer still alive. VS maybe 5-10 days in other states. After gun it’s still great in late gun states. Bow hunters dream worlds vs nightmare in other states.
-GUN HUNTING PARADISE!!!! Yes, I said it!!! “But that seems contradictory!!!!” No!! In iowa u can choose 4 different gun seasons. Or, you go hunt KS gun season ….. it’s FANTASTIC!!! Guys shoot giants, high success rates & love the dec gun season. Go across to MO - same climate… good for a few days on younger deer & season is over. KS is ridiculously good for gun seasons. I’ve done tons of them- infinitely better than MO. Part of that is OPINION but… c’mon, KS gun hunters are wildly successful & have a far better hunt on so many levels it’s not close. Can shoot fully mature giants in ks, oh, ia - with guns. Far different than early gun states. See way more bucks!!! I’ve heard this a billion times in iowa & kansas from guys from MI, WI, MN, Etc …. “I saw more big bucks in ONE NIGHT OF IA gun (or KS) than my whole life in MI hunting!” I’ve literally heard this 30-50 times in my life.
-Balanced & replenished resource. Older bucks every year. Consistency. Usually a “certain amount of 2, 3, 4 & 5 year olds” every year. Changes a little but replenishes so it’s similar year to year. Early gun states have very few every year while late gun states have ample amount every year.
-Casual hunters don’t lose a thing & Serious hunters get benefits as well! Both sides win. Not without issues & it’s not perfect but…. The casual hunter can always & always will be able to shoot the first buck they see. Never changes. The serious hunter don’t have to flee & they can stay where they can hunt the mature bucks they are after. The casual hunters blast & the serious still have opportunities. Not true in other states. Again, not to say there isn’t problems or friction here BUT!!!… keeping your serious hunters happy is important, you need them!!!, they spend the most, they are amazing stewards of the land & they pass deer that often another hunter can tag. States that hurt their serious hunters - hurt their resource, economy & their ability to manage the resource Serious hunters have a far better pulse on when to shoot does & how many & are willing to help as well. & don’t “overshoot” does. Problem free? NO!!!! But way better for both groups than other states!!!
-less impacted by technology enhancements… farther shooting stuff, cameras, whatever. In early gun states it’s just easier to wipe a resource out or target & kill. In late…. It still gives a better edge to the Whitetail & allow even some targeted animals to slip by.
I rattled this off just now on my phone off top of head so bear with me a bit.
. There’s my list to start. It’s so clear to me & common sense it’s mind boggling. The only reason common sense doesn’t prevail - HUMAN NATURE. “It’s always been this way and sucked so it always has to suck! we can’t make a change!!!!!!! Change NOTHING”. Over what amounts to about 14 days on a calendar!!
Why whole states like California are run into the ground when Texas is saying “hey, we are doing it right!! U guys are lunatics!!!” & folks flee California for Texas! It’s that obvious!!!! But- what’s your thoughts? What am I missing?
The late gun seasons in states that have them…. Specifically, Ohio, KS & Iowa…. I’ll admit… I personally have a VERY hard time coming up with “this is the downside of that” …. But I’m gonna try. On the other side, it’s a laundry list of downsides with early gun. Am I coming at this with my mind made up? Sure…. But I am trying to: 1) be fair here & take an open mind & 2) actually write this out so what I think is clear can sit there on its own merits for people to think through …. Or challenge or disagree with. Tell me where I’m right, wrong or what I missed ….
DOWNSIDES & LOSERS DUE TO EARLY GUN:
-BOWHUNTERS. In all the early gun states I’ve hunted in- they get a few evenings in October & maybe a morning that’s decent. Then- the rut they waited for, maybe get 4-5 days of action on average since part of it ends up being so warm. After gun most don’t go out & it’s pointless if you do
-Age class of deer! All the states I’ve spent time in with early gun have a huge portion of their harvest as 1 or 2 year olds. Finding 5+ year olds in these states is incredibly rare & night & day different vs their neighbors with late gun. NOT EVEN COMPARABLE
- too many does (along with too few older bucks). The hunters are so competitive with “I gotta get my buck” they don’t want to screw their hunts up blasting does. The amount of “good hunting days” is so few that they again don’t take the time to shoot does. There’s cases in the FAR NORTH with “too few deer” of course but…. States like MI in the southern tier or MO in the northern tier- cannot get folks to shoot does. There’s other reasons as well…. Wide open NR access (in any state) will also cause this along with the leasing & OUTFITTING that also ties ground up where few to no does are shot & bucks targeted.
-quality goes down, restrictions on access go up & hunter #’s decline: this is also a bit of a mixed bag to cause & effect with some other regs in place with +/- impact (bait, 1 or 2 bucks, NR tag quotas, etc). I’ll use the state of MI punching bag example I often use (along with many other states just like it)…. 1/3rd the hunters quit in 25 years. Far higher than “better states”. “IT SUCKS” is the #1 reason why … & it sucks largely due to guns in middle of rut & next is the 2 bucks but far after the gun timing. It also sucks as hunters don’t have access to quality land or quality experiences. The fewer hunters that remain fight & work their tails off to lock up land, make co-ops, remove hunting pressure, lease land, etc - so the HUNTING DOESN’T SUCK. This lock up - to an extreme degree- is far worse than better states (yes, this happens all over. But it’s far worse in MI or say MO vs IA, etc etc). The few hunters lock the land up to insulate from horrid regs & the rest get thrown to the “scraps” where MOST the time it sucks balls … & those folks either suffer through it or throw in the towel.
-NO LATE SEASON HUNTING. Sure, it exists as these states have 5 million seasons, unlimited quotas with any weapon you want. But…. Day 3 of gun…. About when 90% of guys go “well, that’s a wrap, we ruined it and all the bucks are dead. Season is over. you go and freeze late season & maybe you’re in an area where there’s enough does to see things but hunting for a buck like pre-gun… almost pointless.
-HOT GUN SEASON. It could be cold but I’m gonna say over half the gun seasons of my life in early states were warm to hot. Like 50 to maybe 60’s-70’s on rarer occasions. So hot the deer movement slows & if you shoot a deer… you better process immediately. Not a huge deal but very common to have cookers for opening gun seasons where it’s very uncomfortable.
-SHED HUNTING : ha. Funny. I know folks find em but 10+ years in MI - I never found ONE shed. That’s anecdotal & I know folks find some but nothing like late gun states.
-Serious hunters lose & leave. Kill all the bucks- they flee to better states. Or they quit.
PRO’S TO EARLY GUN:
-Tradition & consistent timing. Some states have the same date every year (MI for example). Some states it changes with weekends. Folks have a set schedule & tradition of “deer camp” & when they hunt that’s been rooted for sometimes many decades.
-More Buck activity (perceived)…. Rutting bucks running around like crazy. “I see more deer”. Action packed. Now- does are hiding during the rut & most the bucks folks see are younger bucks due to the defined lower age class. They see a perceived “more deer” for the few days it’s good until things are blown up.
-More comfortable conditions & weather: not the brutal late season conditions. Generally not a foot of snow or temps that force guys in. Now, a 2 week difference is generally 2-3 degrees difference on average. But for sure less of a chance to be in a big winter storm, etc. Northern areas like N MI, N MN, N WI for sure have some issues with the late November or snowfall. IF CHANGE DATE in NORTHERN AREAS… An example for changing gun season dates could be- in the lower half of the state but not the upper half. OR - have the early gun up north but make it shorter. OR- push the gun season back up north but offer another season similar to Iowas early ML season for those that don’t want to deal with weather. Iowas early ML is genius cause it gives the dudes an option for a week of gun if they don’t want the later season & temps.
DOWNSIDES TO LATE GUN
-NOT AS MUCH RUT ACTIVITY… secondary rut is going but it’s for sure slowed since the craze of mid Nov. more hunts are on food or traveling to & from or hunts could take place trying to see bigger expanses of forest or valleys.
-COLDER TEMPS … can be uncomfortable to some & in iowa there could be some snow. Rarely in kansas but possible. May need: a blind, hand warmers, heavier clothes, etc. I will refrain from making comments about girly-men or sissies.
. It’s for sure colder & could have ice or snow, etc.-OLDER BUCKS HARDER TO SEE… but we actually do HAVE older bucks!!!! But yes, bucks of any age, especially older, are more cautious & have their guards up now.
-FLOOD OF HUNTERS FROM EARLY GUN STATES!! They flee their broken states to hop the border to late gun states. See it all over in OH, IA & KS. Over-run with demand to hunt there from folks fleeing their broken states to hunt the same animal in same habitat BUT an animal that has an older age class in the herd! Great managed states are punished because they attract people who flee their broken systems
PRO’S TO LATE GUN:
-Farmers are done with harvest. They can participate in gun season where earlier in year they are locked up.
-AGE CLASS & Amount of older bucks- staggeringly higher amount of them. Night & day difference. Universes apart. It’s better for the serious hunter, biology, resource. It retains hunters at a far higher rate & it’s incredibly fun to be able to be in average areas where mature bucks exist. The list is endless as to the benefits of older bucks. ENDLESS!!! Can charge “whatever you want” for tags as so many want to come there. Have to limit those tags so it’s not over run but folks want to hunt there vs quitting “cause it sucks” Main reason folks quit in late gun states - so many want to hunt there they lock the land up. Or they do get concerned about other bad regulations & insulate themselves like happens in other states. Hunting Economy is far more robust than in poor quality states. The serious Resident hunters don’t have to flee each fall. On & on!
-Culture & tradition of shed hunting - it’s like a month long holiday here. A month long in nature & actually having success!
-incredible hunting after gun season!! Go gun 2, late ML…. Guys LOVE IT. Is it difficult? Sure. But it’s darn good!!! Unlike states that are ruined 3 days in for the rest of the season. You literally can have excellent hunting to the last day
-effective doe harvest. TOO EFFECTIVE!!! Our doe harvest in S iowa vs across line in MO- we kill way more does. They are visible during gun season. Guys know they have 4 months of great hunting to shoot a buck so don’t mind “ruining a hunt” to shoot a doe. Land is less locked up in S iowa (where it’s bad, make no mistake) vs N mo. Way worse in MO. leasing, outfitting & NR ownsership. All situations few does are shot. Residents widely kill “too many” does on iowa side.
-BOW HUNTERS PARADISE!!!!!! It’s good for MONTHS!!!!!!!! Literally, there’s like “45 good days” a guy might wanna be out when it’s “good conditions” & deer still alive. VS maybe 5-10 days in other states. After gun it’s still great in late gun states. Bow hunters dream worlds vs nightmare in other states.
-GUN HUNTING PARADISE!!!! Yes, I said it!!! “But that seems contradictory!!!!” No!! In iowa u can choose 4 different gun seasons. Or, you go hunt KS gun season ….. it’s FANTASTIC!!! Guys shoot giants, high success rates & love the dec gun season. Go across to MO - same climate… good for a few days on younger deer & season is over. KS is ridiculously good for gun seasons. I’ve done tons of them- infinitely better than MO. Part of that is OPINION but… c’mon, KS gun hunters are wildly successful & have a far better hunt on so many levels it’s not close. Can shoot fully mature giants in ks, oh, ia - with guns. Far different than early gun states. See way more bucks!!! I’ve heard this a billion times in iowa & kansas from guys from MI, WI, MN, Etc …. “I saw more big bucks in ONE NIGHT OF IA gun (or KS) than my whole life in MI hunting!” I’ve literally heard this 30-50 times in my life.
-Balanced & replenished resource. Older bucks every year. Consistency. Usually a “certain amount of 2, 3, 4 & 5 year olds” every year. Changes a little but replenishes so it’s similar year to year. Early gun states have very few every year while late gun states have ample amount every year.
-Casual hunters don’t lose a thing & Serious hunters get benefits as well! Both sides win. Not without issues & it’s not perfect but…. The casual hunter can always & always will be able to shoot the first buck they see. Never changes. The serious hunter don’t have to flee & they can stay where they can hunt the mature bucks they are after. The casual hunters blast & the serious still have opportunities. Not true in other states. Again, not to say there isn’t problems or friction here BUT!!!… keeping your serious hunters happy is important, you need them!!!, they spend the most, they are amazing stewards of the land & they pass deer that often another hunter can tag. States that hurt their serious hunters - hurt their resource, economy & their ability to manage the resource Serious hunters have a far better pulse on when to shoot does & how many & are willing to help as well. & don’t “overshoot” does. Problem free? NO!!!! But way better for both groups than other states!!!
-less impacted by technology enhancements… farther shooting stuff, cameras, whatever. In early gun states it’s just easier to wipe a resource out or target & kill. In late…. It still gives a better edge to the Whitetail & allow even some targeted animals to slip by.
I rattled this off just now on my phone off top of head so bear with me a bit.
. There’s my list to start. It’s so clear to me & common sense it’s mind boggling. The only reason common sense doesn’t prevail - HUMAN NATURE. “It’s always been this way and sucked so it always has to suck! we can’t make a change!!!!!!! Change NOTHING”. Over what amounts to about 14 days on a calendar!!Why whole states like California are run into the ground when Texas is saying “hey, we are doing it right!! U guys are lunatics!!!” & folks flee California for Texas! It’s that obvious!!!! But- what’s your thoughts? What am I missing?
