Shotgunners - THINK FIRST

[gundog870]

I just thought that I would bring up what I hope is already apparent to the many of you that have already spent time in the stand this year. The one major topic that we would all agree on is that the deer population is down considerably from where it was in the "Prime" hunting days and there is only one thing in our control to help fix this. LET THE DOES GO!

(ignore survival rates for this) Lets keep in mind that for every doe that you take out of the herd this year, that is 2-3 deer not there next year, and 4-6 the following, on and on.

This has no facts backing it up at all. But if the average shotgun group is 8 guys and lets say they kill 5 does and 3 bucks, it is apparent how quickly we can devastate a population that is already hurting. This is not even figuring in all of the doe tags still out there.!

MORE importantly, keep in mind that for every doe you let go this year, there will be 2-3 more deer next year.

If you haven't had the best bow season, think about it. We can make a difference in very short order as a group!! This goes for all seasons, not just shotgun, however, the gunners are the group that can make the biggest impact for the better!

I for one will be out there the next few weeks, letting the does walk, where in years past was not the case. I am hoping that my neighbors do that same. This is my second year that I am going without a doe in my freezer, and so far I have survived. :way:

 

[BJohnson]

Amen Nick. I, like you, have noticed a dramatic decrease in numbers, especially mature bucks, this archery season. I will be sitting on the sidelines during shotgun seasons as I have for the past several seasons but I have no ill feelings at all for those who participant. I only ask those who do take to the fields and timbers with guns in hand consider the above comments during the coming weeks.

Be safe out there fellas - ladies. And I hope you all kill a coyote or two along the way.:way:

 

[AZHunter]

(ignore survival rates for this) Lets keep in mind that for every doe that you take out of the herd this year, that is 2-3 deer not there next year, and 4-6 the following, on and on.

This has no facts backing it up at all. But if the average shotgun group is 8 guys and lets say they kill 5 does and 3 bucks, it is apparent how quickly we can devastate a population that is already hurting. This is not even figuring in all of the doe tags still out there.!

MORE importantly, keep in mind that for every doe you let go this year, there will be 2-3 more deer next year.

You say this not fact-based. However, as a professional in wildlife management, I can assure you that what you say here is the most basic scientific principle of wildlife management. What I'm saying is that yes, it is fact-based. There is hard scientific data to support exactly what you are saying. If you want to thin a herd, you shoot more does. If you want to increase a herd, you leave the does alone.

This basic principle is why AZ does not have a general doe season for deer hunts (only one youth doe hunt on the North Kaibab). Our deer herd (both whitetail and mule) are not good overall, so there is no doe season. At the same time, AGFD has increased the cow elk tags in several areas in hopes of decreasing the population in those areas, especially in big fire scars.

Of course, I don't have a dog in this particular fight since I live in AZ and not back in Iowa and won't be up there. Anyone at any point can tell me to shut up and stay out of it and that's ok by me. In the end, people are going to shoot what they want, but, if they are truly the hunter-conservationist that hunters claim to be, then they should be able to see the big picture and think long-term herd health. Very well said, Gundog and, yes, it is actually based on facts!

 

[flugge]

Yeah, I agree, while I have shot does in a few areas where I would see 20+ does.. most of my areas I laid off this year... I cringe when I hear people say they would rather shoot a doe than a small buck because they havent been seeing deer...

 

[THEBAD]

If you are going to shoot does and really think its ok to do so...I know where some hen pheasants are that you can shoot as well.

 

[gundog870]

You say this not fact-based. However, as a professional in wildlife management, I can assure you that what you say here is the most basic scientific principle of wildlife management. What I'm saying is that yes, it is fact-based. There is hard scientific data to support exactly what you are saying. If you want to thin a herd, you shoot more does. If you want to increase a herd, you leave the does alone.

This basic principle is why AZ does not have a general doe season for deer hunts (only one youth doe hunt on the North Kaibab). Our deer herd (both whitetail and mule) are not good overall, so there is no doe season. At the same time, AGFD has increased the cow elk tags in several areas in hopes of decreasing the population in those areas, especially in big fire scars.

Of course, I don't have a dog in this particular fight since I live in AZ and not back in Iowa and won't be up there. Anyone at any point can tell me to shut up and stay out of it and that's ok by me. In the end, people are going to shoot what they want, but, if they are truly the hunter-conservationist that hunters claim to be, then they should be able to see the big picture and think long-term herd health. Very well said, Gundog and, yes, it is actually based on facts!

Thanks AZ! You do too have a dog in this fight, you just only get to fight every few years

I just meant that I have no facts saying the average shotgun group size.

 

[LYON]

Well said! Unfortunately I don't think the majority of people will think about this, much less apply it. And that is not just shotgunners. This applies to all hunters. There are too many people who just want to fill tags and don't think about the future of the herd. I would likely be one of them if it wasn't for my involvement with this site. I've learned a lot about management by being a member here.

 

[bigbuckhunter88]

We will be out with about 8 people. Its mature bucks or bust for us with the exception being my niece and brothers girlfriend. They might shoot a doe on Sunday. I like you have noticed the decline in most areas. However one area where I bow hunt and muzzleload the groups decided years ago that the does got passed. That place has been great this bow season and drawn bucks from other areas. If we start passing does more properties will be like this in the future. Great post Nick

 

[JNRBRONC]

I let the does walk this year during archery and probably will give them a pass late muzzle loader season.

I highlighted (underlined) a couple of passages from a recent Article published in the local paper:

Extra week allows prep time for hunters
Nov. 27, 2013

Written by Joe Wilkinson

In a typical year, 58,000 shotgun deer hunters would be in the woods this weekend. Because of the calendar, though, the first Saturday in December (opening day for the first season) is next weekend. That buys a little more time for planning your 2013 hunt, whether you hunt the first shotgun season or — like 40,000 others — the second season, which begins Dec. 14.

You might start with picking up your license. As of Tuesday, barely 13,000 first-season tags had been sold. That meant the remaining 45,000 expected first-season shotgun hunters will be standing in line before next Friday night to get theirs.

A lot of hunters will take a closer look at antlerless tags this season. The county-specific tags have been popular for the last decade as deer numbers grew. They have done their job pushing the doe harvest up and bringing populations down. The trend has been especially noticeable in the last couple years. Use the extra week to check with the landowner(s) where you hunt: Are they seeing fewer deer? Do they still want more does taken? It might be time to back off for a couple years.


Take some time, also, to sight in your firearm. That’s a critical detail often lost in the shuffle, as you make sure you have enough blaze orange, slugs, hand warmers and cold weather clothes. All the gear in the store doesn’t make up for a gun that is two feet off target at 50 yards.


Once you are out, remember to report that deer after it is down. You have until midnight the day after you take a deer to report it, or before you take it to a locker, taxidermist or process it yourself. Providing the registration number, the county, and whether it was a doe, button buck, shed antler buck or antlered buck allows biologists to track deer herd statistics. That helps as they recommend season changes, county-by-county tag adjustments and other data to keep deer numbers balanced, yet with plenty of opportunities for hunters.


• HUSH DOWN: Iowa’s HUSH program continues to go strong, though donations are down. Help Us Stop Hunger provides processing for donated deer, with the meat going to area food pantries for distribution. Entering its second decade now, HUSH has processed 56,000 deer. That peaked in 2007 with about 8,000 whitetails donated by hunters. Last year, it still held strong at about 5,300.

“The steady decline in donations parallels the decline in the size of the deer herd,” said HUSH coordinator Jim Coffey, from the DNR.
Many of those HUSH donations were deer taken with extra antlerless tags. As deer numbers have dropped to target goals, so have donations.




Joe Wilkinson, information specialist for the Department of Natural Resources, is the Press-Citizen’s outdoors columnist.

 

[Liv4Rut]

Most guys on this site are in tune with what is going on but a lot or not. I was theisens yesterday and saw a guy buying brand new orange bibs and parka. I could tell he was a newby. He asked a guy looking at shells what would be a good slug. the guy showed him the brenekke KOs. The guy said well the guys I am going with said to bring at least 10 boxes so he picked up 10 boxes.

He then went and looked at a couple other things. Just as he was leaving he went over and picked up another 5 boxes. You never now though maybe he is in a high population area. They are still out there.

 

[msauer933]

Most guys on this site are in tune with what is going on but a lot or not. I was theisens yesterday and saw a guy buying brand new orange bibs and parka. I could tell he was a newby. He asked a guy looking at shells what would be a good slug. the guy showed him the brenekke KOs. The guy said well the guys I am going with said to bring at least 10 boxes so he picked up 10 boxes.

He then went and looked at a couple other things. Just as he was leaving he went over and picked up another 5 boxes. You never now though maybe he is in a high population area. They are still out there.

If we really want a disturbing sight, go to a gun range this week. :thrwrck:

 

[JNRBRONC]

Most guys on this site are in tune with what is going on but a lot or not. I was theisens yesterday and saw a guy buying brand new orange bibs and parka. I could tell he was a newby. He asked a guy looking at shells what would be a good slug. the guy showed him the brenekke KOs. The guy said well the guys I am going with said to bring at least 10 boxes so he picked up 10 boxes.

He then went and looked at a couple other things. Just as he was leaving he went over and picked up another 5 boxes. You never now though maybe he is in a high population area. They are still out there.

How many slugs does it take for you to kill running deer at 100 yards?

If we really want a disturbing sight, go to a gun range this week. :thrwrck:

A co-worker said he went to a local public range this past weekend and it was "full", no place to shoot.

 

[Jake]

I agree totally with the statement we are hunting ourselves out of a population. Let the does and small bucks go. I haven't shot a deer with a gun since 2009 because it is either going on the wall or I won't pull the trigger. I don't have to harvest something to have a good time. Every year I see less and less deer at least over the last five years or so. Be safe and let them walk if you want to increase the population back somewhat.

 

[GOARMY]

gun season and does

Guy we here all know to some degree whats going on with the population of deer. Its way down and only days to get cut down again. we all can stop the bleeding as it takes Govt much longer to react to ANY problem. Next week I'm sure we will read from the orange army that they did not see the deer they normally do. I have nothing against gun hunting but right now is a time for us all to step up and do something. Tell your friend if your not seeing deer please just dont shoot every doe you see. Right about now I would rather give up a 120 2 year old than 5 or 6 does. I/ we need a solid doe population to allow us to rebound from 2 years in a row of EHD and natural mortality. Yote populations seem to be on the rise overall and only we can control the hunting aspect of it. Please get the word out. I read today somewhere that Illinois shotgun harvest was down 22% this year. I saw stats that showed that some good counties only took 50% of what they killed last year.

 

[deeraddict]

We will be out with about 8 people. Its mature bucks or bust for us with the exception being my niece and brothers girlfriend. They might shoot a doe on Sunday. I like you have noticed the decline in most areas. However one area where I bow hunt and muzzleload the groups decided years ago that the does got passed. That place has been great this bow season and drawn bucks from other areas. If we start passing does more properties will be like this in the future. Great post Nick

Same here, about 8 of us all looking for a good buck only except for 2 kids that have the green light to shoot anything. We want them to enjoy the hunt and be successful as this is their first time hunting shotgun season.

 

[maher2215]

Everything I have read looks accurate and I agree with population being way low. I am a die hard dedicated bow hunter and basically just shotgun hunt to get together with friends and family.

I am 26 years old and have only shot one doe in my whole life. what's the point population never been out of control in my area, does have the fawns, does carry just as many genetics in antler size as a buck does. They taste better that's about it.

However I know a lot of people buying tons of doe tags for bow season and shooting up to 5 does a year. But yea I am sure a lot more does get canned during shotgun season. some probably wounded and left for dead somewhere. Thus the gun hunters get a bad name.

Our group Hunts basically for Mature Bucks once in awhile a 120 or 130 gets shot just because it may look bigger to some hunters who do not bow hunt and are unable to judge size on the hoof. We usually have 10 tags and shoot maybe 5 to 6 deer a year. Watch some groups shoot 20 deer and 3/4 are 1-3 year old bucks.

Hopefully next year there will be no extra doe tags or hopefully everyone can pool money buy tags and burn them. Good luck to all hunters out there this weekend. Be safe, let the small bucks and does go it will pay off. Too bad Iowa wouldn't enforce a 4 point side rule or something.

 

[AZHunter]

Thanks AZ! You do too have a dog in this fight, you just only get to fight every few years

I suppose from that perspective I do have a dog in the fight. Good point. But the last time I was up there hunting (2011), I missed the same doe twice, then shot my nice, mature buck 15 minutes later and then proceeded to miss a 2nd doe two days later. I think the does are plenty safe from me and my one NR antlerless tag!

Besides, I've never been mad enough at a deer to want to shoot a doe just to shoot a doe. As good as they taste, I do consider myself a true hunter-conservationist and will eat the tag before hurting the population! You should hear some of the conversations down here I've had with hunters and state officials when talking about reducing hunting/fishing opportunities to do actual conservation. They want what they think they're entitled to and don't care about science one bit. Kinda scary...and one of the reasons I hang out here more than on our local hunting forums. You guys get it! But then I'm not a native Arizonan, I'm an Iowan living in Arizona!

 

[Booner]

I just thought that I would bring up what I hope is already apparent to the many of you that have already spent time in the stand this year. The one major topic that we would all agree on is that the deer population is down considerably from where it was in the "Prime" hunting days and there is only one thing in our control to help fix this. LET THE DOES GO!

If you haven't had the best bow season, think about it. We can make a difference in very short order as a group!! This goes for all seasons, not just shotgun, however, the gunners are the group that can make the biggest impact for the better!

:way:

Great idea at heart Nick :way:

However how do we as "all around hunters" assuming a lot of you guys hunt multiple seasons, portray this idea and shed light toward a strictly shotgun hunter?? Here in Central Iowa Hamilton, Story, Boone, Wright, Webster, all counties with an abundance of farm ground, our timber is lacking in comparison with the rest of the state however our farm ground is prime. Now I for one hunt with a large group of "farmers" they own almost all of the land we gun hunt on. I'd say out of those 20 guys, 5 of them hunt another season whether that be bow or muzzle loader. Now to the rest of the 15 guys, deer camp has nothing to do with shooting a big buck, and I mean absolutely NOTHING. These guys have been hunting shotgun for, many of them 20+ years, it's a way of life, its a tradition. Now I know for a fact that there are several other groups like ours in the area, all after the same goal and that is too fill their tag and shoot a deer. Now my question is, how do you explain to a guy who payed for his/her tag, enjoys eating deer and enjoys the comradery of a fellow buddy driving deer with the hopes of pushing a potential harvest to a buddy that he needs to be picky with the deer he harvests because the deer herd as a whole is declining. Now let me remind you these are farmers, of which these deer are all damaging and potentially hurting a future income. Now they aren't out there hunting with the mentality to kill every deer, however like i said they are stuck in their ways of filling their tag, regardless of sex.

 

[gundog870]

It's the "all around hunter" and the educated hunter that needs to take it upon themselves to help better the situation. Do what is in your control, and not worry about the others. But helping to educate them with your knowledge may help!

I am not saying force your beliefs onto them, or make anyone feel guilty for filling their tags. I don't think that this should be a play on emotion, just a simple reality:

If you want to see better hunting down the road, than pass deer today.

I'll be honest, I think that everyone in my immediate area in on the same page, so I can guarantee that my hunting can only get better (cross my fingers, at least we are doing our best with what we have control over). If you want to hunt with a big group that chooses to knock down as many as you can get tags for, you wont be doing it for much longer, it's pretty simple. Nothing wrong with it, but the resource will become tapped, and we will either need to find new areas to hunt, or new hobbies. I am sure in some of your areas you are seeing fewer numbers than in years past, and this has to make you cringe at least a little. But group hunting is an Iowa tradition and one that I am ok with never going away.

A renewable resource is a natural resource which can replenish with the passage of time, either through biological reproduction or other naturally recurring processes.

It takes time to correct! I have a lot of years of hunting ahead of me I hope, I can handle not killing does for a while!

 

[LYON]

Great idea at heart Nick :way:

However how do we as "all around hunters" assuming a lot of you guys hunt multiple seasons, portray this idea and shed light toward a strictly shotgun hunter?? Here in Central Iowa Hamilton, Story, Boone, Wright, Webster, all counties with an abundance of farm ground, our timber is lacking in comparison with the rest of the state however our farm ground is prime. Now I for one hunt with a large group of "farmers" they own almost all of the land we gun hunt on. I'd say out of those 20 guys, 5 of them hunt another season whether that be bow or muzzle loader. Now to the rest of the 15 guys, deer camp has nothing to do with shooting a big buck, and I mean absolutely NOTHING. These guys have been hunting shotgun for, many of them 20+ years, it's a way of life, its a tradition. Now I know for a fact that there are several other groups like ours in the area, all after the same goal and that is too fill their tag and shoot a deer. Now my question is, how do you explain to a guy who payed for his/her tag, enjoys eating deer and enjoys the comradery of a fellow buddy driving deer with the hopes of pushing a potential harvest to a buddy that he needs to be picky with the deer he harvests because the deer herd as a whole is declining. Now let me remind you these are farmers, of which these deer are all damaging and potentially hurting a future income. Now they aren't out there hunting with the mentality to kill every deer, however like i said they are stuck in their ways of filling their tag, regardless of sex.

Moderation is the key. People need to understand that the last 5 years or whatever it has been of being able to buy multiple antlerless tags was not meant to last. I think many people have gotten a taste of being able to shoot multiple deer and now it will be hard to go back to only 1 or 2 (there are obviously avenues for more, but you get the point). For anybody to care about the herd numbers, it has to impact them directly. So for the farmers that you hunt with, they need to see that the herd numbers are declining and will continue to do so until deer stop dying faster than they can repopulate. If the herd numbers keep dropping, their fun times of hunting together will become not so fun anymore if they don't see any deer. Moderation will make things last, excessive harvests has been fun for a few years, but it's time to stop (in most areas).