Trail cams, right or wrong?

[Rembrandt]

Best to start a new thread with this topic for those interested. Please keep it confined to just this issue.

Quote Team_Realtree_Xtreme: "how can anyone say that the use of a
trailcam is in the same class as using a flash or light projection when
hunting????"

Quote Central Iowa: "Rembrant, are you serious about the flash issue?
If so, better not use a flashlight to your stand anymore."

In answer to your questions....Many people use trail cams and so far
the DNR has not prosecuted or gone after this issue. Keep in mind this is
a new phenomonen only recently added to deer hunting.

I believe a strong argument can be made that trail cams are similar to
using artificial light and may also fall under guidelines for other
electronic items.

This may difficult to explain, so I'll insert my comments next to the
Iowa Hunting Regulations.

Deer-You may not use dogs, domestic animals, salt or bait, handguns
except as previously described, rifles other than muzzleloaders,
automobiles, aircraft, electronic calls or any mechanical conveyance or device
(Trail cams are a device) to hunt deer.

Radios prohibited- It is illegal to use one or two way radios to
communicate the location or direction of game (That's why you installed the
camera and isn't that what they do? maybe not in real time, but they do
communicate the location of the animal) or fur bearing animals or to
coordinate the movement of other hunters, this includes cell phones.

Hunting by Artificial Light-Sights that project a light beam are not
legal for hunting. You cannot cast the rays of a spotlight, headlamp, or
other artificial light (trail cam flash is an artificial light) on a
highway or in a field, woodland, or forest for the purpose of spotting,
locating, (Locating is another word for patterning a deer) taking, or
attempting to take ("attempting to take" is why you installed the
cameras) or hunt a bird or animal while having in posession or control, either
singly or as one of a group of persons any firearm, bow or other device
capable of killing or taking a bird or animal. (If 1 or 6 trail cams are in
use at any time during a season, is it a possible
violation?...certainly raises some ethics questions.)

As I said before, the technology leap is unprecidented...and certainly raises some ethics issues.

 

[Shredder]

I think until a trailcam is made that includes the discharge of a firearm and ultimate death of the animal in front of it, they will not fall into the categories listed above. Although you raise some semi-valid points, you are reading too much into it. If there was a problem with the usage of these "devices", the DNR would have made restrictions already.

 

[Liv4Rut]

Trail cameras will only be illegal when they can take aim and shoot

I dont personally have a trail camera, but i want one more than anything for xmas. For mainly having quality pictures of the deer on our properties, and maybe patterning one that i take interest too. Just because you have a deer patterned doesnt mean diddly squat unless your a good hunter, because i guarantee you, i could tell a 1000 people, okay there is a record class buck walking down this trail everyday at 3 oclock, go take a crack at him, and i guarantee you the success rate would probably be a little over half, because lets face it, big bucks arent stupid, the slightest thing out of place they are gone. even if you did have a buck patterned by camera, by spotting fields, or early season scouting thats only a slim percentage of what it takes to harvest that deer, and i think most would agree, that the hunt is the hardest part, setting up, scent control, psychological effects, being able to make the shot, no equipment failure, and anything as any hunter knows can and will go wrong at the moment of truth sometimes. if a flash is what we are all worried about, then why would it matter, a flash is only good at night anyways when its dark, you dont hunt at night. its not like you are sitting next to the cam at night waiting for the flash and shoot in that micro second that the flash takes place. so overall, trail cameras may aid in patterning a deer, but that doesnt mean diddly when it comes to harvesting the animal

just my opinions, everyone elses will be different, but its just what i think and feel. goodluck to all the rest of the season

 

[dblmainbeam]

I dont think using a trail cam should even be an issue. There a good chance you could spook the deer with the flash or going in to get your film. A picture of a deer doesnt make him walk into my shooting lane. All I know is hes in the area its not any different then using my spotting scope. This topic could get ugly.

 

[muddy]

first off, i can respect a guy who takes the time to teach todays youngsters to be tomorrows hunters but honestly, i think you're reading WAY too far into these rules. i mean, come on, what would the cut off be for legal devices to use while hunting?? modern bows, guns, binoculars, scent supprescent suits, 4 wheelers, trucks (just to name a few) are all huge factors (devices) in deer hunting anymore. should we outlaw all these too and go back to riding mules around and hucking stones from afar to make it fair and legal?? no, things change as time goes on and there's nothing we can really do about it other than wave our hands around or hold our breaths but that will only get us so far before we must accept change is inevitable.

no disrespect intended Rembrandt, remember, this is coming from a guy who uses a dancing banana as his callsign...just my 2 cents worth since you asked for it.

 

[all4s]

Rembrendt, I have alot of respect for you and what you do. I hope you won't falt us who use these (scouting) devices. Heck, this site has a link devoted to trail cams. It's made the whole whitetail world alot more interesting! Most people who use them and have captured the nocturnal big boys on film never get a chance to see them during shooting light. I think it's a scouting tool, not a hunting tool. I know when I've crossed the ethics boundries I'm personally disapointed in myself and that's helped me grow as a true sportsman. I can only hope others grow up the way I did. If you don't feel right about it, don't do it. I don't want to run anybody down. I only hope we can lead by example.
Hunt on All4s

 

[Kat]

There are a lot of good points here. First off, I think we can all agree that we love the pictures. Anything to get another glimpse into the world of the whitetail. I don't have a trailcam but would use it if I did. I also think that with all of the technical advances that the deer are responding by getting smarter/better educated. When I started hunting at my landowners place the deer never looked up. They do a lot more now, even at the beginning of the season.

I'm sure trail cams make it easier to scout and pattern deer but in the end it all boils down to you against the deer at the moment of truth.

 

[Bakes]

Rembrendt,
I was wondering what your opinion is on trail video cameras that don't use a flash or light. If I'm not mistaking they use some type of low light filming infrared device, maybe vman can explain it better? Where would that stand in your argument?
Thanks,
Nonres

 

[Rembrandt]

Personally, I don't use them...I'm always up for a good debate though.

Do they offer an advantage?....obviously they do, or people wouldn't buy them. Are they a substitution for for old fashion hunting skills? I think so.

As I posted previously, this is not a design or material improvement on an old hunting tool...it's a new technology hunters 80 years ago never had. In my view that makes the argument that it's no different than an in-line or compound bow invalid.

The question then can be raised...if you hunted 20 years ago, what percentage of your success would you credit to equipment?...10-30%?

...and what would the percentage be today using a trail cam? 50% or more?

 

[Liv4Rut]

I think a trailcam would aid in knowing what your top deer is in your area, or how many deer of what class are in your area, to decide what to hold out for. 80 years ago without any of this awesome technology , people have shot bucks bigger than i can ever dream of harvesting. In the case of the albia buck, they have been monitoring him for how many years with a trail camera, and it wasnt a done deal to now. and like the story said, one guy said this was the night, and the others said everytime he said it was the night it never was. so evidently theyve hunted this buck before thinking it is the night, only to turn up empty handed. I personally dont think a trail cam would aid me that much in my success, the same with scent lok or other high tech gadgets. i owe it all to experience, i think most hunters that hunted 20 years ago, wouldnt contribute it all to technology but to more experience in the field. its just a never ending debate that wont ever get resolved, so i dont even know why im posting lol all it does is separate our views on things, and make everyone a little defensive

rembrandt, i have respect for your opinions and glad to see you stand by them, just like all of us stand by ours, so with that said, im not gonna debate no more, there is no point, and nothing will come of it, its not like the law will change. maybe it would be easier to just have a poll, and see what the majority of the people think, just to get an idea? goodluck to everyone in the remaining 30 something days of the season!!

 

[rutnstrut]

First of all trail cams aren't used to hunt deer so that rules out your first arguement, they're used for scouting purposes only. It no different than if you were in the timber and witnessed it with your own eyes. And for the second part, trailcams dont tell you the current location or direction of a deer only the past so that rules out the second. Besides any real hunter knows that the deer may never be in that same spot again. besides ive got pics of deer that i personally have never seen, so it helped me in no way harvest them. As for the last point of interest, its for SCOUTING not hunting directly and no more different or illegal or unethical than recreational spottlighting. Trail cams are just the fun and smart way to get an IDEA of the caliber and number of deer in a GENERAL area. They arent in my opinion unethical in any way shape or form, like previously stated the dont do the shooting for you and dont guarantee anything. Its no different than videotaping bachelor groups in the summer or shed hunting in the winter and spring, its just one more tool to help put the odds a little more in your favor. As for central iowas comment, i agree 100% a flashlight used to get to and from your stand is projecting an artifitial light and in a direct hunting situation which would make that scenario more illegal or unethical.

 

[Bowhunt]

I have several cameras up on 2 farms. I have had these cameras up for 4 or 5 years and I have hundreds of pictures of bucks. Personally they frustrate the hell out me because I have pictures of some awesome deer, but these deer are nocturnal and most have never been seen by anyone. So it is like hunting a ghost, because you hunt hard all year for a deer you never see. So I am not sure if they help of hinder. They let me know what kinds of deer are around, but that does not mean they are any easier to kill. It just makes it easier to find faults in my hunting that I am most likely not making!

 

[scout]

It's just plain wrong that I have not broke down and purchased one!

There is no meat to your argument that using them is "hunting" by artificial light.

I doubt a law could be passed that would regulate placing one for that matter. You are barking up an empty tree.

 

[Shredder]

I'll chime in again on this one. My trail cams offer no advatage to my hunting other than knowing what bucks are on the farm. I steer clear of where my cameras are set for the simple reason, I do not want the flash to hit a deer in my immediate area hunting. My camera sets are based on the obvious, trails, rubs, or scrapes, areas I know deer are going to be walking so it is no suprise to me to see deer where the trail is come developing time.

As far as relying on equiptment, I don't think I rely on it more than I did 20 years ago. The clothing may allow me to stay out longer, my bow, maybe 10 yards further of a shot. I think my past successes have not come from gadgets/devices purchased but from experiences in the field. Treestands? most trees I set up in I could nail a platform in place and hunt the same there as well.

Back to the cameras, they are a scouting tool to me only to see what bucks are there on the farm. The rest of my scouting comes from personal observations and time in the field

 

[scout]

Wait there is a possible method!

If the camera could send "real time" photos to a lap top, Knowing the camera location you could drop a couple mortor round in on the area. (provided it's during legal shooting hours)

 

[thegeneral]

Just curious, what's the oddest thing you've caught on film? Has anyone had a trespasser or poacher set off one of their cameras yet?

 

[vman]

Wow,
I have never seen sombody dive into the rule book and discect the laws like that.

I have made cameras for a varity of people. I always ask "How are you planning on using the camera" I get responses like, I just want to see whats out their. I want to get a better feel for the guality and numbers of the deer that are on my property so I can practice better QDM. I have had only one or two people tell me that they plan on using it to pattern and harvest a big buck.

The last one is something I have tried to do for the last two years. Let me tell you its not that easy!!!

The videocams use a infrared light. It dosent cast a visuable light like a flashlight does. It uses the same kind of led thats on the end of your TV remote.

 

[deadeye]

I think many good points have been made. A lot of the fun where I hunt and I quote my father is "YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU WILL SEE." Well the only advantage I see in a trailcam is that you will have another set of eyes so to speak aimed on one location. It might help a bit to pattern deer - which any good hunter should be able to do by the sign in the area. I don't see how it gives much of an advantage on killing a large buck. I would agree with VMAN about having one for great pic's, knowing whats out there more than using it to help harvest a big buck.

Depending on the trend of these things may actually have the laws rewritten in a few years. It probably depends on the extent - purpose people use them for. But spotlighting is legal and you can take pic's and all your friends whenever you wanted. So would it ever change the regulations???

Good topic, but I don't know. And I don't agree with all the regulations anyway. Also unfortunately it seems if you ask 2 different CO's you get 2 different opinions - kinda like us.

 

[Rembrandt]

Since there are no laws or guidelines currently on the books, granted a comparison to similar rules may or may not be valid...some similarities, ambiguous at best.

With trail cams I think the "imagery Genie" is already out of the bottle on this....the technology is currently available to receive live camera feeds and track animals in real time. You can currently purchase remote model aircraft (w/cameras) that can feed a signal and GPS coordinates back to the user. Military has been using this technology in the middle east with great success. Several outfitters are already posting live web cam sites so you can view deer at home.

As this technology becomes more cost effective...the distinction between trail cams and video will become gray....sort of like being partially pregnant. There may be no turning back...that's basically my point in bringing the topic up, think about it.

 

[NWBuck]

Rembrandt,

Point #1: If the DNR starts to see trail cameras as an issue to prosecute, we'd all better start jerking the fish finders out of our boats too.

Point #2: I took pictures of several great deer with my trail cam this summer. 2 in particular that certainly would have been the deer of a lifetime. During bow season I took approximately 25 stands in the general area of where the pictures were taken and didn't see either deer until the last day of November...and then only at 100+ yards in the final minutes of daylight. Knowing they're there is really only a confidence boost...not an unfair advantage in killing them.

NWBuck