Native Warm Season Grass

trev33 · Sep 7, 2010

dbltree said:
Usually the NWSG will take over the second year and you won't have to worry about it but I am curious about how many ounces of Panoramic you applied per acre?

I applied 6oz. of Panoramic along with 2qt of Roundup. The waterhemp may of been sprouted and I didn't notice it when I sprayed.

dbltree · Sep 7, 2010

trev33 said:
I applied 6oz. of Panoramic along with 2qt of Roundup. The waterhemp may of been sprouted and I didn't notice it when I sprayed.

Ok...I usually apply 10-12 ounces of Plateau (Panoramic) so it could be that 6 ounces was not enough to control the WH.

Hopefully the NWSH will overpower the WH next year and you won't have to worry about it...

Nontypcl1 · Sep 17, 2010

I have 17acres going into cp23 and will be planted to a tall grass prairie with quite a few forbs mixed in. This area has been hayed for the past 5 years and I will only have time to spray with gly once in early oct. after the last cutting is taken. I wanted to get two kills on the cool season this fall but the ground is being leased through this season and the guy wants to take a 3rd cutting so getting 2 kills isn't an option this fall.

I was hoping on drilling it in november for a dormant seeding but I'm worried about not getting two good kills on the cool-seasons.

Would one kill be enough or should I wait till next spring so I can get it sprayed twice. I'm mostly concerned the forbs and switch not getting stratified by spring planting.

If there is enough fuel I thought about running a fire through after spring planting to try and scarify the seeds. Would this be enough to get most forbs and switch to germinate?

Any thoughts?

letemgrow · Sep 17, 2010

Nontypcl1 said:
I have 17acres going into cp23 and will be planted to a tall grass prairie with quite a few forbs mixed in. This area has been hayed for the past 5 years and I will only have time to spray with gly once in early oct. after the last cutting is taken. I wanted to get two kills on the cool season this fall but the ground is being leased through this season and the guy wants to take a 3rd cutting so getting 2 kills isn't an option this fall.

I was hoping on drilling it in november for a dormant seeding but I'm worried about not getting two good kills on the cool-seasons.

Would one kill be enough or should I wait till next spring so I can get it sprayed twice. I'm mostly concerned the forbs and switch not getting stratified by spring planting.

If there is enough fuel I thought about running a fire through after spring planting to try and scarify the seeds. Would this be enough to get most forbs and switch to germinate?

Any thoughts?

You can drill it this fall either way, then spray next spring when any cool season emerge on a warm day or two in a row so they are actively growing to take up the herbicide. The warm season will be farther behind so they will not be affected by the spray.

Nontypcl1 · Sep 17, 2010

when should I spray in the spring if I plant this fall? Just after green up or should I wait till like mid April?

letemgrow · Sep 17, 2010

Nontypcl1 said:
when should I spray in the spring if I plant this fall? Just after green up or should I wait till like mid April?

I have found it depends on the year, but usually by mid-april, the nwsg's have not started growing yet while the fescue will be 6-8 inches tall.

dbltree · Sep 18, 2010

Spray it this fall for certain...grasses will stay green for a long time yet, so hit hard with 2 quarts of gly ASAP and then plan on hitting it again in early April as Phil suggests.

Remember you can use Plateau on on NWSG plantings for residual control next spring but it's hard on switchgrass. I like to have them send the switch separately then I plant the fluffies and wildflower seed this winter, spray with Plateau in spring, then frost seed the switchgrass seed the following winter.

It's an option you might consider IF you want to use Plateau/Panoramic to control weeds (go back to the beginning of this thread for more info on that subject)

roadking · Sep 19, 2010

I did plant 2 small plots of CIR this spring that turned out pretty good. It's almost as good as the stuff I frost seeded. The key is to get good weed control but if you spray in the spring it's a lot more hit and miss than if you spray in the fall & hit it again in the spring. If you can get to it I'd certainly suggest as dbltree said to do it this fall. Last fall, because of weather, I didn't get it sprayed until the first of Nov. and still got a really good kill except in a few areas. I did hit it again this sping after I frost seeded and it turnd out very good. Good luck.

Nontypcl1 · Sep 19, 2010

Thanks for the info fellas.:way: I think I"ll go ahead and spray this fall and drill it in this november then spray again in april. I'll have to look more into the plateau and decide what to do with the switch then.

dbltree · Sep 20, 2010

We are in the final stages of entering into 10 and 15 year Conservation Reserve Program contracts here in September 2010 with all of us receiving acceptance letters on September 18th or later. Nearly all of us will have received that approval by agreeing to a CP-25 "Rare and Declining Habitat Restoration" seeding.

That seeding will vary somewhat by area and will usually require meeting with an NRCS technician and deciding on a Native Warm Season Grass and Wildflower mix.

That mix is most likely to be comprised of a mix something like this mix from Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms

1 Sand dropseed 0.05
2 Rough dropseed 0.10
3 Sideoats grama 0.90
4 Big bluestem 1.50
5 Indiangrass 1.00
6 Canada wild rye 0.25
7 Little bluestem 0.70
8 Virginia wild rye 0.35
9 Switchgrass 0.40
Subtotal Grasses (PLS Lbs)
5.25 PLS Lbs

Forbs Common Name Ozs/Acre

1 Black-eyed Susan 0.50
2 Seedbox 0.10
3 Evening primrose 0.40
4 Rigid / Stiff goldenrod 0.50
5 Culver's root 0.10
6 Grayheaded coneflower 1.00
7 Sky blue aster 0.10
8 Sneezeweed 0.05
9 Wild bergamont 0.10
10 Partridge pea 1.50
11Tall bellflower 0.03
12 New England aster 0.06
13 Smooth blue aster 0.10
14 Purple prairie clover 0.30
15 IL bundle flower 1.50
Subtotal Forbes (PLS Ozs)
6.34 PLS Ozs

Iowa CRP Mix - PSF #CP25-02-IA
9 Grasses / 15 Wildflowers

Total CRP Mix (PLS Lbs p/Acre)

5.65 PLS Lbs

Each landowners mix may vary and you will have some leeway to work on an acceptable mix with your NRCS tech and if you purchase from a source like John Osenbaugh he can custom mix almost anything you desire. He can also keep seeds separate which can also be advantageous for reasons I'll discuss later in this post.

Right now, even though it is getting later in the fall we still need to consider the single most important aspect of establishing NWSG plantings...preparation! It is imperative that we do all we can to kill and perennial sod forming grasses such as fescue and brome grass and there is no time like the present!

If the fields have been in crops then half the battle is already won but we'll get to that in a moment...

Killing perennial sod grass

At this point it may be too late to mow and allow for regrowth depending on where you live but in a perfect world we would prefer to mow, wait 2-3 weeks and spray the re-growth. As it is many of us will have little choice but to spray without mowing.

Spray using:
2 quarts of 41% glyphosate (Use AMS according to the label)
1-4 pints of 2-4D

Optional additions are:

1-2 ounces of Oust XP and one quart of crop oil

or 8-12 ounces of Plateau/Panoramic

If mowing was not possible before spraying, wait 2-3 weeks after spraying and mow the dead grasses to speed decomposition and make seeding easier.

Land currently in corn or soybeans

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In all but rare cases the work is already done but you do have the option of applying 8-12 ounces of Plateau/Panoramic in the fall.

Shred corn stalks to allow time for decomposition and also allow for ease of seeding later

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Land currently in alfalfa or clovers

Both alfalfa and clover are very difficult to kill using glyphosate alone and are both are also tolerant of post emergence applications of Plateau so it's important to kill them this fall. Both can suffocate a new NWSG seeding and make control nearly impossible with out also killing the native forbs in the planting.

Spray using:
2 quarts of 41% glyphosate (Use AMS according to the label)
2 quarts of 2-4D

Optional additions are:

1-2 ounces of Oust XP and one quart of crop oil

or 8-12 ounces of Plateau/Panoramic (for residual control into the following spring)

It is unlikely that killed legumes will need to be mowed before seeding

There may be of course other scenarios but these would be the most commonly found inland going into CRP.

NWSG's like Big and Little Bluestem, Indiangrass and Sideoats grama are fully type seeds that do not require stratification however the switchgrass and wildflower seeds in these mixes may exhibit a high degree of dormancy. So we have options...one for almost any situation and landowner.

Winter or dormant seeding is the least expensive, most efficient and practical method and can be done with a drill or via broadcasting seeds. If you have access to a tractor and can locate a drill equipped to plant fluffy seeds I would urge you to do so.

Drills are accurate and fast but be sure it is a drill equipped to handle fluffy seeds and the Truax rangeland drills are a good example:

Truax drill

Drills such as these have both fluffy seed boxes and small seed boxes for sowing small seeds such as switch and wildflower seeds and John Osenbaugh can keep the appropriate seeds separate to accommodate planting in a drill such as the Truax.

There is no need to till the soil and unless there is heavy trash a no-till drill is really not needed. All that is required when dormant seeding is to drop the seed on the soil so this allows us to seed without tilling and even seed on frozen soils. Winter seeding gives us the advantage of using equipment when no one else is and utilizing our free time that we often have little of in the spring.

Native grasses and native wildflowers are sown naturally in the wild this way being dropped in the fall, being moved against the soil by winter snow and rain as well as freezing and thawing action. The seeds then germinate in very late spring without ever having been "planted" and in fact the most common reason for a NWSG planting failure is planting seed to deep.

If you have an ATV you might also consider the Truax seed slinger or on small acreages a shoulder carried slinger:

I can tell you however that the shoulder slinger is heavy and cumbersome if planting a large area.

Truax Seed Slinger

We can dormant seed anytime from late November to late March as long as soils are either dry or frozen so that gives us plenty of time to get the seeding done as schedule permit. If you plan on using Plateau at rates above 4 ounces per acre you may wish to leave out any switchgrass seed and broadcast it into the stand the following winter because Plateau can cause serious injury to switch seedlings...yet another reason to ask your seed source to send it packaged separately.

You can plant a NWSG all the way into the first part of June but as mentioned some of you native wildflowers and switchgrass may not germinate until the following spring, Spring is also notorious for wet weather and cause for headaches getting stuck on wet areas, causing soil compaction or as has happened in Iowa the past few years...not getting it planted at all.

If you are new to NWSG it is imperative that you understand that these seeds are nothing like common crop seeds and do not get "planted" at all. If a drill is used or any tillage is done then great care should be taken to not plant these seeds over an 1/8" deep. Using a properly set rangeland drill or planting on frozen soils insures that planting too deep will not be a problem.

In early April spray 6-12 ounces of Plateau or Panoramic per acre...less if clean crop ground, more if it was sod containing fescue. On killed sod adding a quart of glyphosate may also be needed.

Plateau will keep you NWSG planting clean and negate the need for constant mowing all summer....this is some of mine from a past seeding where plateau was used on dormant seeded NWSG.

If Plateau is not used, expect to mow roughly 6 times the first summer, always just above the new seedlings and never mowing close to the ground!! Raise the mower up to just clip the tops off and allow sunlight in at 8-14" above the ground.

Unfortunately many of you will find that your NRCS tech's are totally inexperienced at planting NWSG, they only know what they have been told and have zero experience at actually planting and growing them. I can tell you from experience the best thing you can do is discuss only the actual seeding mix and when you can submit a bill for seed, herbicide, labor, fertilizer etc.

Do not tell them when or how you plan to plant, in fact don't tell them anything at all because in most cases you'll regret doing so. During the summer following planting they may stop by and make sure you did indeed actually plant your NWSG but beyond that don't make your business their business. They are all great, goodhearted people but the lions share of them simply have no working knowledge of this subject.

I'll be planting ground going into CRP with an approved CP-25 NWSG mix myself...so follow along and please share updates of your own plantings this coming year.... :way:

2-4D label Fall allied only

Plateau Herbicide Label Fall or spring applied

Oust XP Fall applied only

Escort XP Fall applied only.

ajadams · Sep 20, 2010

Two years ago I put in 13 acres and just used the mowing method and it was a bit of work to keep up with all the rain. Its coming along good but there are a few poor spots. Next year I get to put in close to 150 acres minus food plot areas and I am definately going to use plateau. That would be too much for me to try to mow if we have another wet year. I can't wait to finally have the farm back in crp with more ground to "play" with. Hopefully have enough pheasants out there by the time my son is old enough to hunt.

dbltree · Oct 3, 2010

ajadams said:
Two years ago I put in 13 acres and just used the mowing method and it was a bit of work to keep up with all the rain. Its coming along good but there are a few poor spots. Next year I get to put in close to 150 acres minus food plot areas and I am definitely going to use plateau. That would be too much for me to try to mow if we have another wet year. I can't wait to finally have the farm back in crp with more ground to "play" with. Hopefully have enough pheasants out there by the time my son is old enough to hunt.

That's awesome AJ but....I'm glad I don't have your seed bill!

I try to refrain from shooting deer in the food plots themselves although there exceptions of course and NWSG surrounding feeding areas can be a great spot to create a travel corridor and waylay deer en-route to feeding or bedding areas. Deer of course make their own runways through the tall native grass but you can easily mow a path and create a runway past a blind or stand.

I mowed a path through some Big Bluestem

and it's like Grand Central Station now...and obviously a great place for a trail cam as well

You can also just drive an ATV back and forth a couple times or even a tractor and deer will quickly adapt to following the easy path, still feeling secure with the screening effect of the native grasses.

Pick off a doe now and then or a rutting buck as he travels to and from doe bedding/feeding areas with out disturbing other deer. Beware however that wounded deer can be extremely difficult to locate in the NWSG so...shoot well... :way:

dbltree · Oct 11, 2010

I have attended this field day in years and there is a wealth of knowledge available in the many test plots there. They also have had various species/variety samples many of which have been there for over 20 years...or have vanished or been taken over by other more dominant species/varieties.

Well worth the trip if one has the time...:way:

Many of the bids in the 39<sup>th</sup> Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) sign-up included putting native grasses or native pollinator habitat on a portion of the CRP acres. To help landowners learn more about getting good establishment of the native grasses, a field day has been set for Tuesday, October 12 at 6:00 p.m. at the ISU Southeast Iowa Research and Demonstration Farm near Crawfordsville.

Native grasses are slower to establish than many of the cool season forages farmers normally use for haying and grazing. The seed is also fluffier and may require some different seeding techniques. With proper planning, seeding, and weed control, excellent stands can be established in the first year.

Field day topics will include species selection, seeding mixes, seeding methods, weed control and maximizing wildlife benefits. Special focus will be on establishing native grasses on existing CRP where presently there is brome grass cover. Participants will also have the chance to compare native grass stands that were done as a dormant seeding in the late fall, an early spring frost seeding, and a late spring seeding.

To get to the Southeast Iowa Research and Demonstration Farm, go 1¾ miles south of Crawfordsville on Hwy 218, then 2 miles east on G-62, then ¾ mile north on the Louisa – Washington Rd. Watch for signs.
The field day is sponsored by Iowa State University Extension, Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS), Farm Service Agency (FSA), and the Iowa Department of Natural Resources (DNR). For more information, call 319-337-2145.

Daver · Oct 11, 2010

Paul - that sounds real interesting, but if it begins at 6:00P then there can't be much outside because of darkness, can there? Is this indoors or outdoors or a combo? I think I am going to try to get there either way.

IQDM · Oct 19, 2010

Paul, what do you recommend for planting rates on big blue and also on little blue? I looked back on the first couple pages of this thread and didnt find much for planting rates. also, does anyone have a "cheap source" for prairie cordgrass?

ajadams · Oct 19, 2010

Next year I am putting in 150 acres of cp25. So far this is my plan. It is going into bean stubble but the ground is pretty rough so we want to level it off first.
First I was going to field cultivate the whole farm. Followed by cultipacking and finally drilling in my nwsg's. I am planning on using herbicide, like panoramic 2sl. Should I apply that a few days after I seed or wait till stuff greens up a bit? Also, I plan on keeping some of the non tolerant forbes out of the mix till the following winter and just broadcast them late winter/early spring. Good plan or not? I got an easy 20 grand going into this and kind of need to get it right the first time (no reimbursement for replant). Thanks for the help. AJ

dbltree · Oct 20, 2010

Paul, what do you recommend for planting rates on big blue and also on little blue? I looked back on the first couple pages of this thread and didnt find much for planting rates. also, does anyone have a "cheap source" for prairie cordgrass?

Here are some planting rates alone or in a mix and John Osenbaugh does carry PCG seed.

Osenbaugh’s Prairie Seed Farms

Click on the price list...:way:

NWSG seed mix example

Switchgrass 1-2. lb./acre 4-6 ft. tall
Big bluestem 1-4 lb./acre 4-6 ft. tall
Indiangrass 1-4 lb./acre 3-6 ft. tall
Canada wildrye 0-2 lb./acre 3-4 ft. tall
Little bluestem 2-4 lb./acre 2-4 ft. tall
Side-oats grama 1-3 lb./acre 2-3 ft. tall

Planing rates alone (so in any combination adjust rates accordingly)

Seeding rate for species planted alone
Big bluestem

165,000 seeds per pound

7 pounds of pure live seed per acre

Switchgrass

389,000 seeds per pound

6 pounds of pure live seed per acre

Indiangrass

175,000 seeds per pound

7 pounds of pure live seed per acre

Little Bluestem

7 to 12 pounds of pure live seed per acre

John could further advise you on optimum planting rates in Iowa but those are suggested to rates.

ajadams said:
Next year I am putting in 150 acres of cp25. So far this is my plan. It is going into bean stubble but the ground is pretty rough so we want to level it off first.

First I was going to field cultivate the whole farm. Followed by cultipacking and finally drilling in my nwsg's. I am planning on using herbicide, like panoramic 2sl.

Should I apply that a few days after I seed or wait till stuff greens up a bit?

Also, I plan on keeping some of the non tolerant forbes out of the mix till the following winter and just broadcast them late winter/early spring. Good plan or not?

I got an easy 20 grand going into this and kind of need to get it right the first time (no reimbursement for replant). Thanks for the help. AJ

I would spray the Panoramic right after planting AJ, for best results and I will be doing the same thing with non-tolerant switch and forbs so yes, dormant seed them the following year and it will work great!

20 grand??...

...

IQDM · Oct 21, 2010

awesome! thanks!

dbltree · Oct 26, 2010

I attended the SE Iowa NWSG Field Day a while back and looked over the NWSG test plots planted each year 2001-2004. Plots are comprised of (6) 30X60 plots, each planted at different times, treated with or with out herbicide, tilled or un-tilled etc.

A mix of NWSG and forbs was used each year but different seed sources where used and that appeared to cause some variance long term in success but the sources were not revealed.

The plots in each case had been in either corn or soybeans and because they were so small the seed was always broadcast literally by hand. The seed was weighed out and tossed into the wind to allow the seed to be broadcast over the 30X60 area.

In 2002 the test area had been in soybeans so the front 3 plots were disced and the back 3 were not. On 11-25-02 one plot each (disced/not disced) was dormant seeded, on 3-13-03, the second two plots were dormant seeded and on 6-03-03 the second two plots were tilled and broadcast seeded and then cultipacked.

On May 13th 4 ounces of Plateau was applied to the North 1/2 of each plot

Now....7 years later I stepped into the center of the 6 plots and took a pic....it was impossible to tell one planting method from another!

Standing on the edge looking in you can see it is one solid stand of Big Bluestem and Indiangrass with almost no forbs existing simply because the tall grasses have out competed them.

They did very similar tests with Cave In Rock switchgrass only they used 2 quarts of atrazine on 1/2 the plots and sowed at 5#'s per acre...again all broadcast seed. The best plots appeared to be the late February early March dormant seedings but again there were different seed sources that added an element of variance from year to year.

This is the 2003 March sown CIR switchgrass today...

In short all methods produced viable stands and long term use of herbicide did not produce a better stand, it just allowed the stand to be established sooner.

For those converting crop land to a CRP-CP-25 NWSG planting you can use whatever method might work best for you but one distinct advantage of dormant seeding is that the landowner will not have to fight wet spring weather. Seed can be broadcast or drilled with equipment equipped to handle fluffy seeds on frozen soils anytime from late November thru late March.

Soybean stubble is ideal and nothing more need be done, corn stubble can be planted as is or stubble shredded/chopped simply to make drilling or broadcasting a little easier but it will have no effect on the success of the stand either way.

In regards to Plateau/Panoramic I would use 8 ounces per acre on heavy soils for best results but if you choose to mow, do so up to 6 times the first summer clipping at 6-12" height. :way:

Scott · Oct 26, 2010

Osenbaugh recommended 10 pounds per acre of CIR for deer. Being this will be my first time planting CIR this winter, can you put the seed on to heavy? Will it out compete itself and stunt its own growth?

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