Lime question

Discussion in 'Dbltree's corner' started by jmm46, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. jmm46

    jmm46 Member

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    I just woundered if it hurts or would help if I spread lime out over a food plot a day after the seed is already in the ground. At the time I didn't have access to lime and needed to get the plot planted(New Zealand blend).
     
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  3. JNRBRONC

    JNRBRONC Moderator

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    It won't hurt to spread lime right after seeding, but lime is slow to incorporate into the soil. Therefore it might not have the full pH buffering affect you desire for the newly seeded ground.
     
  4. Central Iowa

    Central Iowa Administrator

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    I was told that pelletized lime is faster than ag lime to be utilized. Therfore on my small plots I have always used pelletized lime being I am always in a hurry and usually running late. I was checking into this a while backand came across this article by Lloyd W. Murdock which contradicts what I have always heard.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lloyd W. Murdock, Extension Soils Specialist

    Pelletized lime is made by granulating finely ground agricultural (ag) lime. It may be dolomitic or calcitic depending on the nature of the original limestone. The fine lime particles are bonded together with lignosulfonates during the pelletizing process. In general, the pelletized lime contains about 9% lignosulfonates. Pelletized limestone is a product that has been on the market for many years. The price of the material on a per ton basis is considerably higher than bulk ag lime, so its use has mainly been confined to specialty markets, with little use in production agriculture. However, the product is becoming more commonly used in production agriculture. Some questions have been raised about recommended rates of this material and the speed at which it reacts compared to standard ag lime.

    How Much Can the Rates be Reduced for Pelletized Lime?

    The recommended rates and the effect on soil pH of any agriculture lime product is related to the neutralizing value of the lime, which is a combination of the purity (calcium carbonate equivalent) and the fineness of grind (particle size). As these two properties of lime change, so does the recommended rate of lime and its effect on soil pH. The finer the lime particles and the higher the calcium carbonate equivalent, the more effective the lime and the lower the rate of lime needed to make the desired pH change.

    Bulk ag lime sold in Kentucky has an average neutralizing value of 67% when averaged for all quarries. All lime recommendations in Kentucky are based on this value. Therefore, if the neutralizing value of pelletized lime is substantially higher than 67%, then the recommendation should be lower. The information to calculate the neutralizing value should be on the pelletized lime bag, and the method to calculate the neutralizing value can be found in publication AGR-106,University of Kentucky College of Agriculture. For example, a high quality pelletized lime source may have a neutralizing value of 85. If this is the case, the lime rate can be reduced to 78% of what would be recommended for bulk ag lime. This is calculated by dividing the average neutralizing value of ag lime by the neutralizing value of the pelletized lime being used (67 ”85= 0.78). In this case, 1560 lbs/ac of pelletized would be required to equal one ton of ag lime. If less than this amount of pelletized lime is used, the expected soil pH change will probably not be obtained. As can be seen from this example, the recommended rates of pelletized lime cannot be greatly reduced as compared to bulk ag lime.

    How Fast Will Pelletized Lime React?

    The speed of reaction (rate at which the lime will change the soil pH) is mainly a function of surface area of the lime particles and their contact with the soil. The finer the grind of lime, the more the surface area, and the faster the reaction. Since pelletized lime is pelleted from finely ground lime, it is easy to assume that it will be faster reacting than bulk spread ag lime which has some larger, non-reactive particles as a part of its composition. However, this is not true. Based on research from several states, it appears that the pelletized lime reacts no faster to raise the soil pH than good quality ag lime applied at recommended rates. In fact, incubation studies at Michigan State University found the pelletized lime to have a slower rate of reaction. Field research from other states indicate the rate of reaction is about equal to ag lime.

    The slower than expected reaction of pelletized lime is probably due to two things: 1) the lignosulfonate binding, and 2) the distribution pattern. The lignosulfonate binding must break down by solubilization or microbial action before the lime is released to neutralize the soil acidity, which would delay the speed of reaction. When the pelletized lime is spread, it is distributed on the soil in pellets and results in small concentrated zones (spots) of lime after the binder dissolves. The fine, reactive particles of ag lime, in contrast, are spread as more of a dust so that the lime is better distributed and not in concentrated spots. The bulk spreading method will allow the ag lime to contact a larger amount of the soil.

    Summary

    Pelletized lime is an excellent source of high quality lime. Its use in agriculture has been limited due to the price. The recommended rate of pelletized lime should be based on the neutralizing value of the lime and will probably be about 75 to 80% of that for average-quality bulk ag lime. Contrary to popular belief, the speed of reaction of pelletized lime is no faster than that of bulk ag lime. Thus, when comparing the two materials, less pelletized lime is needed to raise the soil pH to the desired level, but the increase in pH is no faster than with ag lime if both are applied on the basis of their neutralizing values.
    </div></div>
     
  5. nannyslayer

    nannyslayer New Member

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    Central Iowa is right, the pellitized lime (pell lime) is much faster than ag lime. Pell lime is a annual lime, which means it will not bring your ph up like ag lime will. It is "more for the plant, than the soil" type of lime. As for application timing, you can put lime on anytime, plot up or not.
     
  6. bowhuntr311

    bowhuntr311 IowaWhitetail Addict

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    Alright I thought this would be a good post to throw this question out.

    If I was to do a ph test of ag lime in general, what ph level would I expect to get? 10?

    Thanks.

    Dean
     
  7. nannyslayer

    nannyslayer New Member

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    Most of your "good" ag limes will test around 6.8 to 7.8, some reaching as high as 8.2.
     
  8. SaskGuy

    SaskGuy Active Member

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    Dumb ?...is putting lime on crop land there a common thing? I read so much regarding food plots and lime yet I've never heard of anyone putting lime down here.
     
  9. huntdoc

    huntdoc Member

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    Depends on what your soil pH is up there and I recall that it is often near neutral in many places, so would require no lime. Your local farmers might know.
     
  10. bowhuntr311

    bowhuntr311 IowaWhitetail Addict

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    So is there a chart some where or a calculator that I cant find (a simple one) that says if your ph is X.X you need to put Xlbs/ac to achieve a ph level of X.X?

    Ive looked but its kinda hard to find a simple one?

    Dean
     
  11. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowhuntr311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So is there a chart some where or a calculator that I cant find (a simple one) that says if your ph is X.X you need to put Xlbs/ac to achieve a ph level of X.X?

    Ive looked but its kinda hard to find a simple one?

    Dean </div></div>

    I have always sent in a soil test which would come back telling me I needed -X- # of tons of lime per acre to raise the PH to 6.8

    Here's a few links that may help you although perhaps not exactly simple. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

    Most asked questions about lime

    Lime Use for Soil Acidity Management

    Lime Recommendations

    Top 10 Liming Questions

    Economic lime calculator

    Burn after liming

    Soil Testing and fertilizer

    Soil Facts

    The following table is from this link: Soil Fertility

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Table 3-8: Tons of Aglime (Effective Neutralizing Power (ENP) of 2,000 Lbs/Ton) Needed to Raise the Soil pH to the Desired pH Level Based on the Shoemaker-McLean-Pratt (SMP) Buffer pH and an Incorporation Depth of 8”
    Buffer pH* Desired pH levels
    Mineral Soils Organic Soils
    6.8 6.5 6.0 Soil pH 5.3
    tons agricultural limestone/acre tons/acre
    6.8 0.9 0.8 0.7 5.2 0.0
    6.7 1.6 1.4 1.1 5.1 0.5
    6.6 2.2 2.0 1.6 5.0 0.8
    6.5 2.9 2.5 2.0 4.9 1.3
    6.4 3.6 3.1 2.5 4.8 1.7
    6.3 4.2 3.6 3.0 4.7 2.1
    6.2 4.9 4.2 3.4 4.6 2.5
    6.1 5.6 4.7 3.9 4.5 2.9
    6.0 6.2 5.3 4.4 4.4 3.3
    5.9 6.9 5.9 4.7
    5.8 7.6 6.4 5.2
    <span style='font-size: 11pt'>5.7 8.3 7.0 5.7</span>
    5.6 8.9 7.5 6.1
    5.5 9.8 8.1 6.6
    5.4 10.3 8.7 7.1
    5.3 11.0 9.2 7.5
    5.2 11.6 9.8 8.0
    5.1 12.4 10.4 8.5
    5.0 13.0 11.0 8.9
    4.9 13.7 11.6 9.4
    4.8 14.4 12.1 9.8
    * Lime test index (LTI), which may be reported in place of buffer pH, is buffer pH times 10.
    </div></div>

    In that chart for example it would take 8.3 tons of ag lime to increse PH from 5.7 to 6.8 in the type of soil mentioned.

    Of course there are different types of lime, different finess etc. and that link covers all of those variables. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     
  12. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    Re: All about lime - Supercal 98G.

    It's that time of year when we need to be putting lime down in preperation to plant spring plots and someone asked me about this product?

    Calcium Products - Supercal 98G

    I haven't heard of it but it seems like it would have merits for the small plotter unable to have tons of lime put on a small plot.

    Here's some FAQ's

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Q: What is 98-G?

    A: 98-G is a finely ground calcitic limestone, usually 99% CaCO3, mixed with a binder to produce a pellet. The pellets are the same size as fertilizer. Because the CaCO3 is so pure, and so fine, you can use 300-400 lbs. per acre in place of one ton of ag-lime. 98-G is the highest quality pelletized limestone in the midwest. Back to Top


    Q: How can 400 lbs. of 98-G equate to one ton of Ag-Lime?

    A: Table 1: The average particle size of 98-G is smaller than 100 mesh. Therefore, 20% of 199,000 is 39,800 sq. ft., which equates to 91.4% of an acre.

    Q: What is limestone?

    A: There are two types of limestone. (A) Calcitic, which is CaCO3 (B) Dolomitic, which is Ca Mg (CO3).

    The addition of magnesium makes the difference in the two types. Using dolomite as an ag-lime creates a buildup of magnesium in the soil as plants do not use much magnesium, and the buildup of Mg will create "tight soil". Plants will have a more difficult time growing. Many growers look at a calcium to Mg ratio of 4 to 1. To insure they do not have too much magnesium you can use calcitic lime 98-G or gypsum SO4 to reduce the Mg. Or, better yet, use 98-G all the time.

    Q: Is calcium the same as lime?

    A: Calcium is only part of the formula for calcium carbonate (limestone) and the carbonate is the active part in the reaction to neutralize the acid (low pH) found in soils.

    Calcium will seek out and attach to sites on organic and clay particulate in the soil, thereby releasing nutrients that may be tied up there.

    Q: How does 98-G work?

    A: Calcium carbonate will react in the soil to "bind" to hydrogen molecules and form compounds that will disperse in the air or soil and render them unable to affect the pH of that soil. The byproducts of this reaction include carbon dioxide and water.

    Q: Can I use more than 400# of 98-G if my tests indicate I need more than one ton of ag-lime?

    A: We don't advise using more than 500# per application, as calcium carbonate is not very soluble and will move only a very few inches into the soil. If you are using minimum tillage or no-till, that distance can be further reduced. Rather than over correct that shallow depth, we recommend applying more frequently, rather than applying more than 500# in any given application.

    Q: What type of cultivation should I use to incorporate 98-G?

    A: We recommend using the type of tillage that you are finding fits your operation. No variation in tillage is needed.

    Q: Can 98-G be applied in furrow?

    A: Yes. SuperCal is flexible in application methods. We have seen the best response to in furrow or banding when the product is applied in a "T" band over all the product going in furrow. Rates are figured using the normal banding formula.

    Q: Can I use 98-G in my deep application operation?

    A: Yes. We have seen satisfactory response to 98-G being deep placed. This can be done with or without accompanying fertilizer (dry only).

    Q: Should I use 98-G before corn or soybeans?

    A: Using 98-G before either crop will produce satisfactory results. Most will determine by which crop receives fertilizer application and then applying at the same time or in the same application with the fertilizer. It can be impregnated at that time also. In some extreme situations, we have recommended putting on 400# prior to corn and an additional 200# prior to soybeans to hasten the relief from very low pH's.

    Q: How does buffer pH figure in?

    A: The buffer pH is an indication of just how much lime will affect the soil pH. A high buffer reading usually indicates not as much correction will be needed if the buffer is low.

    Q: Can I apply 98-G myself?

    A: As 98-G can be applied by any normal fertilizer equipment, it is possible for you to apply this product by yourself. It is, however, recommended you follow your dealer's recommendations, and often they are better equipped to apply this material along with your fertilizer, especially if you are considering the use of variable rate technology.

    Q: What should I expect to pay for 98-G?

    A: Around the plant (Gilmore City, Iowa), $5.00 per 100 lbs. is a ballpark figure. As you get further away, the freight will increase the price. Back to Top

    Q: At what pH should I consider liming?

    A: Low pH creates two issues. First, is relative % yield.

    Crop pH 4.7 pH 5 pH 5.7 pH 6.8 pH 7.5
    Corn 34 73 83 100 85
    Soybeans 65 79 80 100 93
    Alfalfa 2 9 42 100 100

    So, at a pH of 5.7 you will lose 17% of a 200bu./acre anticipated yield, 20% on beans and 58% of an alfalfa crop

    </div></div>

    I saw a price of $7 a hundred mentioned on the QDMA forum so your looking at less then 30 bucks an acre. Might have possibles for many plotters who are close to a dealer.

    Couple dealers a reasonable distance from me:

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> NEW ALLIANCE FS / CRAWFORDSVILLE, IA CRAWFORDSVILLE, IA 52621 319-658-3302

    NEW ALLIANCE FS / HEDRICK IA HEDRICK / SIGOURNY, IA 52563 800-677-2110
    </div></div>

    Anyone hear of this product good bad or otherwise?? /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif
     
  13. nannyslayer

    nannyslayer New Member

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    Re: All about lime - Supercal 98G.

    I was going to say that FS has a product called Supercal, which works ok for bringing the ph up in a small area.
     
  14. jstapp1220

    jstapp1220 New Member

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    Re: All about lime - Supercal 98G.

    Dbltree, my name's Josh, I reside in north central Georgia and would like to have more info on this product. Where would I go to be able to have this shipped to me and how much do you think the freight cost would be on about 400 pds. Thanks!
     
  15. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    Re: All about lime - Supercal 98G.

    You can get more info via thier website: Calcium Products

    I'm guessing freight would be pretty expensive but I would just call them and find a dealer and see what they say. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     
  16. LoessHillsArcher

    LoessHillsArcher Well-Known Member

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    We'll be giving this a shot for sure! Sounds like an easier soluion for smaller secluded plots. Does it sound too good to be true, almost? How often would you have to apply, annually? Just some quick questions that came to me.
     
  17. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How often would you have to apply, annually? </div></div>

    That I don't know but I suspect it would have to be applied more often then ag lime?

    It sure has some advantages inculding being able to spread it thru a fertilizer spreader or even small eqipment like an ATV spreader or even a bag spreader in small areas. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     
  18. KSQ2

    KSQ2 PMA Member

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    Dbltree, I was planning on using pell lime on the area we're planting fruit trees this spring. Since you cannot work in lime around trees after the roots are established is using the pell lime going to do any good? My ph is right at 6.3 -- according to the extension office that's on the bottom side of what works for trees, they said I could apply 50 lbs. of pell lime per square 10 ft, if I wanted to make the ph perfect, they said nothing about pell lime being "used up" quickly. So back to the question, am I wasting my time with pell lime for this application?
     
  19. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> am I wasting my time with pell lime for this application? </div></div>

    6.3 is probally close enough for apple trees but the pell lime certainly wouldn't be a waste if you can add it.

    It's something you could check again in 3-4 years to see if the ph stayed up there or if it needs another "tuneup"... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
     
  20. KSQ2

    KSQ2 PMA Member

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's something you could check again in 3-4 years to see if the ph stayed up there or if it needs another "tuneup"... </div></div>

    Will lime, ag or pell either one, slowly incorporate itself into the soil w/o working it into the ground? If not, how do you lime around young, established trees?
     
  21. dbltree

    dbltree Super Moderator

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will lime, ag or pell either one, slowly incorporate itself into the soil w/o working it into the ground? If not, how do you lime around young, established trees? </div></div>

    Yes...it will just take time to dissolve into the soil and PH will be correct near the surface first and then more slowly near the tree roots.

    I like to incorporate some into the soil when I plant the trees and then also treat the soil around the drip line of the tree. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     

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