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Tree Planting

Tons of good info there from Dbltree. I've only planted maybe 4,500 or so trees in the last 4 years so I'm no pro, but here are some things I have observed. Most of this has already been covered in the last 4 pages, but I'm in the mood to type I guess.

1. You simply cant plant them and forget them. Doesnt work, with the possible exception of Red Cedar which are just plain tough. If you cant devote a fair amount of time to trees for the first 4 or 5 years, plant NWSG instead and you'll be happier.

2. Herbicide definately makes a difference in both survival and growth rate. Unless you use the high dollar stuff, you will probably need to spray twice during the season to get really decent control.

3. If you have many deer at all, no, make that ANY deer at all, you need to protect the trees in some way. The most deer I have ever saw on my property at one time is 16, average is 6-8 per day. Still, you cant find a one of those 4,500 trees which has not been effected by deer, and they have outright killed many of them. I wish I had used tree tubes for the hardwoods. I really like white pine, but they are deer candy and its a waste of time and money to plant them unless you can fence them. The local county conservation board told me they have given up on white pine for that reason and strictly plant cedars now. Fence them and you'll be ok. Norway Spruce suffer a little less damage.

4. Deer damage does not seem to be detrimental to my shrubs (Red Dogwoods), even though they browse them heavily. The Plums and Nanking Cherry dont seem to be bothered much by deer.

5. Mechanical planting is the only way to do large numbers, but if your only doing a few hundred you will have much better survival by hand planting.

6. Mechanical planting is very difficult in rough areas and sod doesnt help either. Crop fields work MUCH better for mechanical planting because the soil will close up better around the roots keeping them from drying out.

7. I'd rather plant 100 trees and protect and care for them well than plant 1,000 and hope for the best. I thought I could plant so many the deer wouldnt be a factor, I was wrong. Despite the 1,000's of acres of crops surrounding them they still ate the trees.

8. Mark you seedlings with flagging tape or some other means. If you dont get herbicide on early enough, you'll have a hell of a time finding those green seedlings in a sea of green weeds w/o some sort of markers. Makes mowing much easier too.

9. I believe Poast herbicide can be applied over deciduous trees for grass control, but check the label.

10. I wish I had just put down weed mats 4 years ago. In the long run it would have been cheaper and definately alot less work. Some of my trees are in the 5th year and they still havent outgrown the weed competition.

11. If your going to borrow a tree planter from a local agency, get on the list as early as possible. You dont want thousands of seedlings setting around in warm weather because you are waiting your turn with the planter. If you do have to wait a long time look for cold storage. I knew some folks at the local beverage distributor and a little begging got me a place to house several thousand trees in their refridgerated warehouse for a couple weeks. Use your imagination and you can find a cold place to store them if you have to wait.
 
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9. I believe Poast herbicide can be applied over deciduous trees for grass control, but check the label.



Thanks alot TP...I just spent dayyyssss "researching" Poast for trees (ok...at least a 1/2 hour :)

I posted all the confusing details in the Herbicides post.

Long story short BASF tried to pull a fast one by marketing Poast as Poast Plus with different labeling....to make more money of course.

Reading the Poast label shows that it indeed can be used on most trees, some even when leaved out but conifers it's safer before hand.

Remember Poast (Plus or not) is a grass herbicide and will not control broadleaves. Grass however is normally the tough one to kill.

Use Poast when grass is growing well...do NOT mow first.

Poast Label

BSAF Poast

Poast Plus Label

Select 2-EC with crop oil has proven to be far more effective then Poast Plus on grasses and can also be used on tree plantings.

Select 2-EC

The label does suggest that it is safer to try to apply it around the base of trees versus over the top orinjury can result.

Just another option in the war on weeds
 
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This message is aimed at anyone considering a large tree planting. I have tried it all, seedlings , tubes, cages, weed mats, hand planting, machine planting into sod and grain fields and have come to one conclusion.The absolute best way is a direct nut and seed planting. In fact, it's about the only way our forester recommends. If you don't know the process, you either start with a year of roundup spraying on sod or CRP or a crop field. The ground is plowed or worked just like a crop field in the fall. Then you spread the walnuts acorns ash or whatever you want and disk them in. You MUST spend the money to spray the first couple years. I have 3 year old oaks over my head, walnuts and ash taller than that. Tubing your young oaks is a good idea. You just pick the best ones in the seeding and scatter your tubes evenly. Believe it or not, trees grow faster from seed than transplanted as seedlings, unless its on your lawn, but thats not a natural setting. You don't get that immediate satisfaction of planting seedlings but you will actually have timber quicker with a nut seeding, and it won't be in rows so it looks more natural. Just a thought if you are in it for the long haul. The really beautiful part is that if you control the weeds for 2-3 yrs with spraying, after that the trees shade out everthing else. No more mowing down each row!!
 
The really beautiful part is that if you control the weeds for 2-3 yrs with spraying, after that the trees shade out everthing else. No more mowing down each row!!





Other then Roundup...what did you use for herbicide after the seedlings sprouted?

Did you collect your own acorns?

I know some people have had success planting that way so just curious about some of the details
Some links to direct seeding:

Planting Trees From Seed

Direct seeding of native hardwood trees

Starting Burr Oak Trees from Seed.

Growing Oak Trees from Seed
 
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Sorry, I couldn't get the site to come back up till now. Hope they get this fixed. To answer your ?, the first year the seeds are sprouting, the only herbicide you can use is Prowl( also goes by other names but it's that orange-yellow stuff that stains all the tanks it is in). Thats why it is VERY IMPORTANT to start out with clean ground,i.e. Roundup killed sod or crop ground. After the trees are up the 2nd year you can use all the over the top stuff mentioned here. I had a professional forestry service spray mine with a 4-wheeler so I don.t know what he had in there exactly, but I know it was a 3-way combination. I also hand sprayed some thistle patches later in the year with Transline. It did a good job on them. One thing to remember. If you have some thin spots and want to plant more trees, you MUST plant seedlings. The 2nd year herbicide will kill most trees growing from seed the 2nd year. The exception to that rule seems to be ash. Some ash can come that 2nd year. I'll try to post some pics of my seedings after they green up this spring. If you really want to regenerate forest, this is the only way to go. If you want to talk to the guy who sort of pioneered this procedure, his name is John Olds and he runs One-Stop Forestry in Postville Ia. He was in on the first attempt to do this over 10 years ago. Phone 563-864-3586. John has a network of seed collectors and the price varies by species and availability. I collected as much seed as i could and bought the rest. Ash is the best "trainer" for the walnut,oak cherry to make them grow straight and tall. Don't know if that ash borer will change that. By the way, the goal here is to get way more trees growing than a mature stand could tolerate. In later years you will have to thin the stand to allow the best trees to mature. Something for your kids to worry about!
 
Just a reminder if you haven't ordered your seedlings yet...

The State Forest nursery is starting to sell out of some items: Order Form

Red Fern Farm is sold out of apple and pear trees until fall (which is also a great time to plant) You can reserve fall seedlings anytime soon!

Cold Stream Farm still has a pretty good selection but they too will be selling out of some items soon.

Oikos Tree Crops is a great place to get the unusual and more rare types. I like their hybrid oaks and chestnuts in paper pots!
 
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What is the best herbacide to use for first year planted red cedars? I am planting 500 and just want to make sure i maintain them properly
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You can spray just about anything approved for trees on, around or over red cedars if they are not actively growing, atrazine, simazine, poast, select, Oust can all be used safely.

Once small seedlings of any kind have broke dormancy and start to leaf out or produce "candles" as with conifers, it's safer to spray the ground around them or you may severely injure or kill the seedlings.

Previously in this thread there is a list of herbicides for trees many of which are much safer and easier to procur then Oust...but I'm used to using Oust and am satisfied with the results.

Oust comes like this:

OustXPmeasure.jpg


With it's own measuring cup that leaves no chance of spilling any:

OustXP.jpg


In my case I mixed one ounce in 3 gallons of water along with some roundup:

OneOunce.jpg


I sprayed my rows first and then planted....in this case chestnuts.

Please be sure to keep the roots of your new seedlings protected from drying winds and air period!

Keep them wrapped in a bag with some moist soil medium and then transfer to a bucket or planting bag with a little water to keep the roots moist.

Chestnutsandplantingbag.jpg


A planting bag works very well for ease of planting as well as protecting the roots.

Dry roots = dead seedling!!

Plantingbag.jpg


The chestnut roots were too large to use a dibble bar so we had to use shovels.

Make sure you hold the seedling at the proper ht so you plant it the same as it's previous growing depth.

Do not allow the roots to form a "J"....so make the hole deep enough and spread the roots if they are large.

Firm the soil well around the need seedling...air is it's enemy!

AirTite.jpg


This is last years nanyberry planted with a dibbel bar, already leafed out and growing.

DO NOT spray most herbicides over the top of these growing seedlings unless the lable clearly states it's alright to do so!

NannyBerry.jpg


This Red Oiser Dogwood has not budded or leafed out yet so seedlings in this state should be fine for over the top application of herbicide.

RedOiserDogwood.jpg


I've got 200 red cedars and assorted shrubs to plant today and then I will carefully spray around last years seedlings, covering them if need be.

I sprayed a couple small wild cedars and some small shingle oaks with Oust yesterday...dousing them down good to test the limits.

Oust is meant for over the top arial spraying of large forested areas and this is where the danger of damage lies.

I hope to test some of the other hebicides this year as well to compare the residual action and if there is damage or injury from any of them.
 
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Re: Tree Planting - with a dibble bar

If you have a bunch of small tree seedlings like these red cedars my son and I planted:

25inabunch.jpg


It's easier and faster to use a dibble bar: Dibble bar

Ours are homemade...not much to them if your handy with a welder.

Step on them to drive a hole:

Dibblebar.jpg


Place the roots of the seedling in the hole using care to make sure the roots are not in a J form.

I slide the hole seedling in...and then pull it up to proper planting depth.

Plantingseedling.jpg


Then drive the bar into the soil next to the hole and close the opening:

Closehole.jpg


Make sure you step on the remaining hole with your heel to close the opening and firm the soil tight around the seedling.

Follow the steps in this link:

Planting for Success

A dibble bar will make what can be a bit of a "job"...a little less so.

Couple links to some tree herbicides in small affordable quanities where one doesn't need several gallons:

Surflan

Hy-Yield (generic Poast)
 
Re: Tree Planting - Oust treated plantings

Just an update on the Oust/Roundup...

so far no ill effects:

Oustweedkill.jpg


I've been mixing one ounce in my 3 gallon back pack sprayer.

I sprayed before planting new seedlings and around dormant trees in early April.

treesSprayedwithOust.jpg


I'll keep an eye on them and update how the seedlings do.
 
Re: Tree Planting - Oust treated plantings

More updates on Oust treated tree plantings...still no problems that I can see but sure does take care of any weed growth!

Chestnut seedlings:

ChestnutOusttreated.jpg


Norway Spruce:

Norwayspruceousttreated.jpg


Red Osier Dogwood:

RedDogwoodandOust.jpg


Nanneyberry:

NanneyberryandOust.jpg


Untreated:

Untreated.jpg


As far as I can see...fears of killing seedlings when a backpack sprayer over dormant tees or around the base of budded trees are unfounded.
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Oust treated plantings

Few late season pics of the Oust herbicide treated tree plantings. Weed growth starts to encroach from the edges (which is why mowing helps) otherwise weed control is good and no seedling mortality.

Oustendofsummer.jpg


Chestnut/Oust

Chesnutfirstsummer.jpg


Oak and Oust

OakinOust.jpg


Nannyberry/Oust

NannyberryinOust.jpg


Red Oiser dogwood and Oust

RedOiserDogwoodinOust.jpg


I did notice that NWSG seems impervious to it...

WSGinOustTreatedarea.jpg


If anyone has pictures/thoughts on whatever types of tree herbicides you used...please share. There are many options and it's always good to compare.

Fall is a great time to prepare for next springs planting by using a residual herbicide such as Oust and Roundup to kill strips for next springs planting.

Makes planting much easier!
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Oust treated plantings

I took a couple more pics of the Oust herbicide treated seedlings just before cold weather set in this past fall.

This is a small Red Cedar with some stemmy broadleaf growth around it but not enought to inhibit growth as with a heavy mat of brome grass or fescue.

RedCedarOustherbicide.jpg


Just a little idea what a treated planting might look like late in the year depending on the type and amount of herbicide.

Ousttreated.jpg


It's not likely to be perfectly "clean" but the idea is to hold back competition from weeds and grasses. Keep in mind that Red Cedars commonly "sprout" up in CRP grasses across Iowa but growth will be much faster if they don't compete for soil moisture, nutrients and sunlight.

Remember it's way past time to be ordering seedlings for spring 2008 planting! Better get on the stick before suppliers are sold out!

IDNR Seedling Order Form

Coldstream Farm Nursery

Red Fern Farm Nursery

Oikos Tree Crops

Morse Nursery

There are many many others of course...if you have a favorite seedling source please share it with us. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Oust treated plantings

Anybody have advice for trees/bushes that could be planted for thermal cover in riverbottom ground? Obviously needs to be able to withstand moist soil and even occasional, short term flooding. I've thought of feathering some edges but I'd also like to create some windbreaks in various places. Many of the hills in the area are north facing and I need some hideaway spots for this extreme cold weather.


Willow stands are great cover in moist, flood-prone areas. Several of the river-bottom properties I hunt have these and they harbor all types of wildlife while the more open maple bottoms are bare and less attractive during the very cold winter months.
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Oust treated plantings

Anybody have advice for trees/bushes that could be planted for thermal cover in riverbottom ground? Obviously needs to be able to withstand moist soil and even occasional, short term flooding. I've thought of feathering some edges but I'd also like to create some windbreaks in various places. Many of the hills in the area are north facing and I need some hideaway spots for this extreme cold weather.


Most of the dogwoods such as Red Oiser, Silky and Grey will all do great in low moist soils and make great bedding cover along with willows.

You can see them and more information in the State Forest Nursery Nursery Catalog

Iowa Tree Planting

Forested Riparian Buffers
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Tree spacing

Most of you have already ordered your seedlings which will be arriving in a few weeks, but you still have options regarding spacing of your new planting.

Another post asked the question " can cedars be to thick"?

Here are some links, pictures and ideas to help you determine the best spacing for you and your situation.

Iowa Tree Planting

Planning Your Tree Planting

Tree Planting in Minnesota

Tree Planting in Michigan

Tree Planting in New York State

Tree Planting in Wisconsin

These links contain many spacing charts to give you ideas on how many trees per acre you will end up with and planning/planting advice.

CRP Hardwood plantings will require that you plant hardwoods...right?? Ahhh...but they allow you to plant conifer "trainers" as in the picture below.

Conifertrainers.jpg


The trainers are meant to "force" the hardwoods to grow tall and "limbless" to some extent for better timber quality. Each of you have to determine what you priority is when planning your hardwood tree planting.

Is it for timber or widllife...or both? Many foresters will try to encourage black walnuts in your planting however they have little or no wildlife value compared to oaks or chestnuts.

The conifer "trainers" are usually planted in a criss cross pattern but you can plant them in rows in the planting. I planted mine 2 rows of hardwoods and 4 rows of conifers for instance.

Cost share and payment was the same but I wanted the thermal value and bedding area value form the conifers being planted together. I also planted 100% oaks at the time for hardwoods (keep in mind there are dozens if not more varieties of oaks and hybrid oaks)

Check with your forester on the basic requirements and then request that the tree planter plant the conifers according to YOUR plan.

In Iowa Red Cedars are IMO the best suited conifer for whitetail bedding and general cover areas. All other types of conifers will need long term fencing to protect them from bucks in the fall.

If at all possible plant red cedars on south facing slopes, along roads as a poacher screen and in your hardwood plantings too add cover adjacent to the future food source provided by the oaks.

Tree plantings can always be thinned if needed as it's impossible to predict mortality in newly planted seedlings.

Deer will use your cedar plantings more if they are not planted to thickly and are suurounded by grass and blackberry thickets:

S5000744.jpg


These are spaced fairly well but on a north facing slope which remains cold and snow covered.

S5000745.jpg


They love the thermal cover and protection but also prefer the open travel lanes...

S5000746.jpg


S5000747.jpg


S5000749.jpg


S5000750.jpg


Mange your cedar thickets so that you always maintain some semi-open grassy areas forbedding and browsing.

S5000751.jpg


S5000752.jpg


Ok...enough with the cedar pictures... ;)

Just remember them in your plantings becuase your forester most likely will consider them a pest rather the a habitat enhancement.

Carefully plan your spacing and planting plans in a way that will best enhance your hunting property and your ability to hunt those plantings in the future.

No one is to old to plant trees...it's a legacy you leave behind and make this world a little greener to boot! :)
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Tree spacing

Won't be long and seedlings will be arriving!


Remember to heel new seedlings in until you can get them planted and keep them in a bag or pail with enough water to keep roots moist until planted.

Bare root seedlings will dry out in minutes with a light breeze blowing on them and you start off by planting a ...

dead tree... ;)

Get em in the ground ASAP and share some pictures with us :)
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Tree spacing

Pheasants Forever is helping us with a bunch of cedars, going to try a few pines, and a bunch of shrubs. We'll be sure to do our best with the first planting and take some pictures! One question for you Paul, what are Green Ash good for looking at it from a wildlife point of view? We went through our land this weekend and we have a bunch of them and they seem to take up a bunch of good ground some oaks could be growing on. I heard they make great fire wood. thanks in advance
 
Re: Tree Planting - Tree spacing

I'm not Paul nor pretend to be, but with the Emerald ash borer knocking on our door, I don't intend to plant any (more) ash. If you do have some, I hate to be pessimistic but my gut feeling is they will be firewood sooner than later.
 
Re: Tree Planting - Tree spacing

with the Emerald ash borer knocking on our door, I don't intend to plant any (more) ash. If you do have some, I hate to be pessimistic but my gut feeling is they will be firewood sooner than later.


I agree with Randy...planting ash IMO would be a lost cause...
 
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Re: Tree Planting - Tree spacing

Well we're just winding up our first year of tree planting, mostly shrubs from Pheasants Forever this spring. Definately a learning process and tip #1 prepare the ground the fall before if possible, we didn't and are paying for it. We've got it down to an assembly line sort of...
Keep the trees in a bucket of water to keep the roots wet
100_0640-1.jpg

We did get to take a mower and knock down the grass, helped to see where we planted
100_0641-1.jpg

One guy take a spade and knock off the roots of the live grass..here is where fall prep would have helped
100_0642.jpg

Another grab the dirt auger and get to work!
100_0643-1.jpg

Then when we get them done we flagged them off which helps for future spraying, more trees coming this weekend!
 
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