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Unclear on switch vs crp and when to use each.....

Rous14

Rous14

PMA Member
What’s everyone’s philosophy or opinion on when and why you would prefer a field of crp vs a field of switch? At least from a cover/bedding standpoint my perception is that there’s a fair amount of conflicting opinions by good hunters who kill big bucks as to whether deer generally bed in switch or not. Curious as to the pros/cons of the two options in your guys experience.
 
Good question?
I spent years hunting crp in nw mn in the early_mid nineties.
Never paid attention to what was planted but holy crap were there bucks!
 
Native grasses with forbs.
A foundation of natives & then when weeds or small trees get in em- stupid.
What we saw in 90’s to 2000’s was often just grown up weed fields - ragweed, golden rod, asters, etc etc. which also turned into brush back then…. That was also very good.

The BRUSH intermixed with crp…. Great combo but hard to do nowadays in crp. (No trees allowed in most crp.

natives + forbs is my current favorite if I had to choose. Me being FUSSY!!! (Not as realistic for most who are not nutty like me on how I plant…. Different plantings on different fields or soil types. Could do 2 to 5 different mixes that are killer. I do that and it’s awesome!!!!!!!! But - I do let some ground go idle so it’s brushy mess. If u can do that- unreal how good it can get.
 
I know what you mean when asking switchgrass vs crp. For the sake of clarity, switchgrass is a native warm season grass. Crp is a program that may include various types of grass or trees planted on ground that is "rented" by government farm services agency for 10 years or more. Just want to use the correct words. Depending on the practice selected and the chosen option for seeding mixtures you may get a mix that has switchgrass. Most mixes have multiple species to ensure diversity and that something grows. Farm service agency classifies the primary vegetation type as..
Cp1 is cool season grass. Cp2 is warm season grass. Cp3 is trees.....every one of the crp practices have several seeding mixtures and choices that is determined by the customer.
The deer respond to structure and don't really care about the plant species. Alot of deer useage depends on slope, aspect, other available cover in area, disturbance,time of year and so on. If I had to decide...I would look at crp practices such as cp38e, cp2, cp4d and enroll acres to cash flow other management that may include planting some acres of switchgrass if needed. Take advantage of opportunity for the subsidies to help you management objectives.
 
Sligh1 said:
Native grasses with forbs.
A foundation of natives & then when weeds or small trees get in em- stupid.
What we saw in 90’s to 2000’s was often just grown up weed fields - ragweed, golden rod, asters, etc etc. which also turned into brush back then…. That was also very good.

The BRUSH intermixed with crp…. Great combo but hard to do nowadays in crp. (No trees allowed in most crp.

natives + forbs is my current favorite if I had to choose. Me being FUSSY!!! (Not as realistic for most who are not nutty like me on how I plant…. Different plantings on different fields or soil types. Could do 2 to 5 different mixes that are killer. I do that and it’s awesome!!!!!!!! But - I do let some ground go idle so it’s brushy mess. If u can do that- unreal how good it can get.
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Everything I read last few years talks about the importance of having structure (shrubs, trees, regen, etc...) mixed in regardless of whether it is crp or switch as the difference between ok and really really good as you describe Skip so I definitely believe in that aspect of it. I kinda have close to what you describe now (a little light on the structure admittedly) but I question whether it’s better than converting it to switch simply bc most of the natives and forbs provide very little cover by mid to late December. And definitely don’t seem to hold any deer or provide the deer anything from Jan to spring green up. So is switch ultimately better as long as you don’t plant it “too thick” and keep some pockets in it of various shrubs and trees? Just seems like it would be better cover during the months where cover is most needed and in lesser supply.
 
Duckriver said:
I know what you mean when asking switchgrass vs crp. For the sake of clarity, switchgrass is a native warm season grass. Crp is a program that may include various types of grass or trees planted on ground that is "rented" by government farm services agency for 10 years or more. Just want to use the correct words. Depending on the practice selected and the chosen option for seeding mixtures you may get a mix that has switchgrass. Most mixes have multiple species to ensure diversity and that something grows. Farm service agency classifies the primary vegetation type as..
Cp1 is cool season grass. Cp2 is warm season grass. Cp3 is trees.....every one of the crp practices have several seeding mixtures and choices that is determined by the customer.
The deer respond to structure and don't really care about the plant species. Alot of deer useage depends on slope, aspect, other available cover in area, disturbance,time of year and so on. If I had to decide...I would look at crp practices such as cp38e, cp2, cp4d and enroll acres to cash flow other management that may include planting some acres of switchgrass if needed. Take advantage of opportunity for the subsidies to help you management objectives.
Click to expand...
So just pulled out all my documents regarding this and it appears as though the particular field I’m contemplating converting to switch is currently in CP22? I’m in IL so maybe they use different terms? I will look it up and see what I come up with but it’s mostly big blue, Indian, some switch in it but not much etc.... and even though I burned it a couple years back there seems to be plenty of weeds in it too. It’s good pheasant cover but doesn’t seem to be tall enough to hold deer for most part. Most importantly though like I say, in December through spring green up it just isn’t great cover for deer and that’s what has me wondering if I’d be better off with switch.
Side note: I don’t get annual payment for it, original landowner got all money up front. It comes out in like 6 more years at which time I need to figure out what I want to do w it.
 
Rous14 said:
So just pulled out all my documents regarding this and it appears as though the particular field I’m contemplating converting to switch is currently in CP22? I’m in IL so maybe they use different terms? I will look it up and see what I come up with but it’s mostly big blue, Indian, some switch in it but not much etc.... and even though I burned it a couple years back there seems to be plenty of weeds in it too. It’s good pheasant cover but doesn’t seem to be tall enough to hold deer for most part. Most importantly though like I say, in December through spring green up it just isn’t great cover for deer and that’s what has me wondering if I’d be better off with switch.
Side note: I don’t get annual payment for it, original landowner got all money up front. It comes out in like 6 more years at which time I need to figure out what I want to do w it.
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The terms will be the same. But the species in mixtures and rates can be very different in each state. Cp22 is riparian forested buffer. It could have a strip of native grass included. Cp2 is native grass.
Not sure about the payment unless it was enrolled as a conservative reserve enhancement program (crep).
Crp is changing so much...a lot will change in six years. Check into management options that may benefit you with your local biologist at the usda service center. Ask about disking, burning, legume interseeding, herbicide options.
 
Duckriver said:
The terms will be the same. But the species in mixtures and rates can be very different in each state. Cp22 is riparian forested buffer. It could have a strip of native grass included. Cp2 is native grass.
Not sure about the payment unless it was enrolled as a conservative reserve enhancement program (crep).
Crp is changing so much...a lot will change in six years. Check into management options that may benefit you with your local biologist at the usda service center. Ask about disking, burning, legume interseeding, herbicide options.
Click to expand...
Yep, was just looking it up and you are spot on with the riparian buffer. This particular strip or field is in native grasses although I can’t find anything that describes the mix they used. And yes, it was enrolled in crep. Fortunately it’s not the permanent crep like many adjacent farms to me so I’ll have options/decisions to make when it comes out. This particular field isn’t but most of the rest of my farm is river bottom land, highly erodible etc...
Total farm is 270 ac but looking at the documents and looking at them again now it just fascinates me that they planted 77,550 trees when they enrolled it in the program. Crazy!
 
Any open CRP that “hollows out” later in year…. Yes…. I would want: switchgrass, thick brush, cedars, shrubs, etc.
no doubt about it!!!!
taking some CRP acres - even 10% - & doing tree/shrub planting is very smart…. if a guy has the ability to do it & do it right.
 
Sligh1 said:
Any open CRP that “hollows out” later in year…. Yes…. I would want: switchgrass, thick brush, cedars, shrubs, etc.
no doubt about it!!!!
taking some CRP acres - even 10% - & doing tree/shrub planting is very smart…. if a guy has the ability to do it & do it right.
Click to expand...
Seems I’ve read you and others talk about how much you like red cedars clumped up in small groupings. What kind of shrub plantings have you done/like Skip?
 
Rous14 said:
Side note: I don’t get annual payment for it, original landowner got all money up front. It comes out in like 6 more years at which time I need to figure out what I want to do w it.
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This doesn't sound right at all to me. I'd making call to local USDA office and verify previous landowner isn't just getting the payments and telling you a story. The only programs I know of that pay up front are conservation easements, WRP, etc.

Many CRP programs contain some switch. Lower rate like 1-2 lbs per acre along with big blue, Indian grass, etc along with forbs. These are my personal favorite.
 
Rous14 said:
...
Side note: I don’t get annual payment for it, original landowner got all money up front. It comes out in like 6 more years at which time I need to figure out what I want to do w it.
Click to expand...

I had a similar experience when I bought my farm. The selling owner had "sold" the CRP contract with about 4 years left on it, BUT...did not represent that accurately when he listed it. This was revealed late in the buying process and the short, short story is that it ended up with him having to pay me all of the money upfront that I would have otherwise received over the remaining 4 years.

I would triple check to make sure how your deal was structured. If it was sold to you as a "known" then things are probably fine. If it was misrepresented at sale...you might have a claim.
 
I do a mix. I don’t want cedars to grow too thick. So- I stagger cedars all over in the planting. Mixed with a variety of shrubs or other trees. I have to think back on the deer-proof shrubs…. I honestly forget. Hmmmmm. There’s some they mess with & others they don’t. Some ive planted…. Nannyberry, wild plum, high bush cranberry, serviceberry, etc. the dogwoods do get deer pressure.
for “thickets”. I’d find 2-3 shrubs that deer don’t mess with hard. + cedars. + Osage Orange (hedge). If u want food producing trees- tube those. Then - sky is the limit for goals and other trees to add …. Depends what u want & long term goal is. If a guy wanted “timber” later- my feedback would involve other trees. Million ways to skin this cat based on goals and long term stuff. If a guy is gonna do TWO 15 year tree planting contracts that total 30 years…. I probably would add some other trees to this.
 
In a crp planting that is not a shrub/tree planting, only 5% of that crp field can be trees. The local nrcs offices I deal with watch like a hawk that I have no more than that in them.

It is an ever going battle with cedars. I like them but only where I want them. They are easy enough to control but the siberian elm (I called them chinese elm but was instantly corrected to siberian elm) are like a noxious weed. I have been working on killing all the adult trees around to stop the seeding factor. It's tough when the neighbor has his side of the fence with loads of mature ones dumping seed year after year though. Just did a triplocyr spraying last week and the elms are toast in the crp.
 
IowaBowHunter1983 said:
This doesn't sound right at all to me. I'd making call to local USDA office and verify previous landowner isn't just getting the payments and telling you a story. The only programs I know of that pay up front are conservation easements, WRP, etc.

Many CRP programs contain some switch. Lower rate like 1-2 lbs per acre along with big blue, Indian grass, etc along with forbs. These are my personal favorite.
Click to expand...
I don’t claim to be an expert on all the different terminology but when you mention conservation easement I believe the “crep” programs that are very common in my immediate area are what these are. My program was a 30 year deal that the original owner signed it up for and received all the money for. That owner sold it to the person I bought the farm from. Now there’s something like 8 years left on it. Both the 200 and some acre farm to my adjacent west and 480 ac farm adjacent to my north are both in permanent crep, meaning that the original owners of those farms that enrolled them got the payment(s) and those farms can NEVER be put back in to production, split, built upon etc
I looked at both of those farms before buying mine but got scared away by the permanent forever part! Really the only value of those farms is the Rec value i.e. good deer hunting. These farms that are permanent with no income sell for considerably less obviously. I could have bought the 480 for what most 150-170ac pieces are selling for. So that’s the enticing part.
 
Daver said:
I had a similar experience when I bought my farm. The selling owner had "sold" the CRP contract with about 4 years left on it, BUT...did not represent that accurately when he listed it. This was revealed late in the buying process and the short, short story is that it ended up with him having to pay me all of the money upfront that I would have otherwise received over the remaining 4 years.

I would triple check to make sure how your deal was structured. If it was sold to you as a "known" then things are probably fine. If it was misrepresented at sale...you might have a claim.
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Was definitely made known. There was never any income from the crp or crep (or maybe that’s the actual difference?) implied and my realtor made sure that I understood that.
 
Rous14 said:
Was definitely made known. There was never any income from the crp or crep (or maybe that’s the actual difference?) implied and my realtor made sure that I understood that.
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OK, we had two different scenarios then, never mind. :)
 
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