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#1 Overlooked Threat to Deer Managers….

Sligh1

Sligh1

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hillrunner’s post reminded me….
We all know the threats of EHD, bad neighbors, poaching, etc etc. One thing I personally don’t think folks have the insight into is how much the coyote population has EXPLODED in the last 10 years. Little to No trapping + whatever else is going on has created the “perfect storm” imo. I’m out at farms every day/night. Multiple counties. I’ve never heard the amount of packs & sightings like the past few years. Even on I-35, I’ll see as many dead coyotes as deer quite often.
We kept good track & I think we were at like 65-80 (can’t remember exact) coyotes killed off ONE farm!!! No exaggeration. Will more move in? Sure. Will we solve this? No. Will we keep killing them? YEP.
The amount of coyotes on camera. The amount of does with no fawns. The amount of rutting bucks I’m 1000000% sure got run down from rut & became targets…. Staggering.
Heck, we shot 4 does in one night a while back with buddies. One ran too far so we said “let’s get them in am” …. I swear, all 4 were nothing left by next am. Could grab them by spine & throw all 4. That’s how many coyotes are out there.

It’s war & it may never end. It may slow with mange or higher fur prices. But- those suckers are reaping deadly results every night!!!!!
Always something. It’s nature & life in wild. But…. More dudes that trap & hunt for em the better. I know there’s a debate on killing them & never getting ahead but i personally don’t care. It’s the unknown EPIDEMIC going on across the
Midwest IMO. Kill every last one!!!!!
 
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FWIW, we have very high deer population in our neighborhood and there are definitely some coyotes, but nothing that I would judge to be more than normal. The reason I suspect...there are a couple of active coyote hunting groups that frequently pursue them in our area and I know they are pretty proficient at getting them. So I kind of wonder if that activity is keeping the coyote population under some control...and...could be a big reason why we have some many deer in our neighborhood??
 
Daver said:
FWIW, we have very high deer population in our neighborhood and there are definitely some coyotes, but nothing that I would judge to be more than normal. The reason I suspect...there are a couple of active coyote hunting groups that frequently pursue them in our area and I know they are pretty proficient at getting them. So I kind of wonder if that activity is keeping the coyote population under some control...and...could be a big reason why we have some many deer in our neighborhood??
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Bingo!!! Groups hammer the coyotes…. It does work. & yep- the flip side …. Deer population can get really high and coyotes do manage the population. In your case, it’s probably more balanced.
Where it’s a problem is the large areas across iowa with lower deer populations…. Fewer fawns dropped and they are hit by coyotes. Hard to get #’s back.
The eye opener I had….. about 10+ examples like these 3…
1) I find a buck dead walking to my tree stand. No wound. Fresh kill. Within an hour. Blood coming out of mouth. Long story short…. Coyotes ran him until essentially his lungs gave out & fully exhausted. I sat in stand about 200 yards away and shot 6 arrows at 6 coyotes & still had about 7-10 more I had no arrows for.
2) a big healthy 5 year old had a tiny/minor limp on front leg. Maybe from fighting. Who knows. Saw him & looked very big & healthy except that tiny limp (which would have been fine). 2 days later the neighbors find him eaten up. Did not get shot. I’m certain a big group of coyotes sensed that deer had an injury & took him down. When a buck has rutted hard & worn down- that’s when I believe the coyotes GO FOR IT & take them down. It’s a natural occurrence & how dogs are wired but there’s way too many doing way too much damage.
3) was sitting with buddy & had a nice healthy buck in field late ML season with other deer. Stud up and comer. Coyotes came out & other deer ran. He didn’t seem to mind. He was big, looked healthy & he was hungry. Tough buck that wasn’t too scared of coyotes. Long story short…. We had to go there the next am & that buck was dead about 100 yards away. Taken down by a huge pack of coyotes.

What’s changed…. Instead of “3 coyotes” I’m seeing like “10”. & 3 packs of 10 vs 1. They have so many they can gang up and set the trap & take down any deer. Clearly as someone that wants bucks to make it to maturity - the rut is what concerns me & when I want coyotes dead- during & after rut. When bucks are run down some. We will be trapping & killing them hard during that period. Strongly suggest letting someone trap at least the outskirts of any farm. War. Kill ‘em all!
 
IowaBowHunter1983 said:
I am assuming there is a correlation between massive habitat improvements, small game/mice, etc boom, and an influx of yotes. CRP/native plantings are huge to things coyotes eat.
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Agreed. ^^ FWIW, when I was a youngster (late '70's and '80's.) and was all over eastern Iowa chasing pheasants and other small game we almost never saw a coyote. Red fox, yes, coyotes...if you saw ONE it was a topic of conversation, they were that unusual.

But when the modern CRP program (mid-'80s) took hold in our state there was suddenly zillions of acres of predominantly brome grass. POOF! Now there were coyotes all over the place. I have to believe that the huge increase in habitat for mice and rabbits led directly to a huge increase in the number of coyotes...which still are common to this day.
 
Sligh1 said:
Bingo!!! Groups hammer the coyotes…. It does work. & yep- the flip side …. Deer population can get really high and coyotes do manage the population. In your case, it’s probably more balanced.
Where it’s a problem is the large areas across iowa with lower deer populations…. Fewer fawns dropped and they are hit by coyotes. Hard to get #’s back.
The eye opener I had….. about 10+ examples like these 3…
1) I find a buck dead walking to my tree stand. No wound. Fresh kill. Within an hour. Blood coming out of mouth. Long story short…. Coyotes ran him until essentially his lungs gave out & fully exhausted. I sat in stand about 200 yards away and shot 6 arrows at 6 coyotes & still had about 7-10 more I had no arrows for.
2) a big healthy 5 year old had a tiny/minor limp on front leg. Maybe from fighting. Who knows. Saw him & looked very big & healthy except that tiny limp (which would have been fine). 2 days later the neighbors find him eaten up. Did not get shot. I’m certain a big group of coyotes sensed that deer had an injury & took him down. When a buck has rutted hard & worn down- that’s when I believe the coyotes GO FOR IT & take them down. It’s a natural occurrence & how dogs are wired but there’s way too many doing way too much damage.
3) was sitting with buddy & had a nice healthy buck in field late ML season with other deer. Stud up and comer. Coyotes came out & other deer ran. He didn’t seem to mind. He was big, looked healthy & he was hungry. Tough buck that wasn’t too scared of coyotes. Long story short…. We had to go there the next am & that buck was dead about 100 yards away. Taken down by a huge pack of coyotes.

What’s changed…. Instead of “3 coyotes” I’m seeing like “10”. & 3 packs of 10 vs 1. They have so many they can gang up and set the trap & take down any deer. Clearly as someone that wants bucks to make it to maturity - the rut is what concerns me & when I want coyotes dead- during & after rut. When bucks are run down some. We will be trapping & killing them hard during that period. Strongly suggest letting someone trap at least the outskirts of any farm. War. Kill ‘em all!
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Agreed, particularly the bolded part. ^^ In particular, concerning the idea of trapping, I think many of us ardent deer hunters are aware that a good many trappers have been "disinvited" from land that they used to trap but now the "deer dorks" want to keep it unsullied by trappers so as to not pressure Mr. Big, etc. I am a member of the Iowa Trapper's Association and recently attended the state convention, where I talked with several serious trappers. Because I don't always have enough time to trap my own land well enough, I made acquaintance with someone there that is eager to come trap my place this fall.

I told him that I can put him on the "X" for various species and welcomed him to come. I will restrict where he goes, obviously I am not going to let him go into the meat of the cover, but there are plenty of places to pick off the furbearers around the perimeter of the "good stuff" for the deer and all wishes can be fulfilled. Edit to add - if anyone needs any help finding a legit trapper for their area, I would reach out to the nearest Iowa Trapper's Association member, I am sure they can line you up with someone responsible. If anyone needs any contact info, just let me know, I can get it for you.

I also "allow" the coyote hunters on my place after the deer season. (It is also true that if I didn't "allow" them then I think they would go anyway...but at least this arrangement keeps them 80% honest and out of my timber during deer season.) Sort of a "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" strategery. :) Those are just my thoughts.
 
Few thoughts and questions this generates for me.

And I’ll preface this by saying that I’ve been on a rant about the over harvesting of does, lower deer numbers in general, lower quality/quantity of bucks in general for many years now (since 2012/13 severe ehd years). The next article you see published about not shooting does (or at least greatly reducing the overall harvest of does) will be the first one. Drives me crazy.

So to your point Skip, if coyote numbers are as high as they’ve maybe ever been (and my observation/opinion is the same) and theyre doing great damage to the fawn survival rate but yet we continue to feel there’s a surplus of does that we feel compelled to shoot then which is it? In other words if there’s plenty of does for us to shoot then it’s kind of hard to sell the too many coyotes, major threat conversation isn’t it?

Most all of the data in the Midwest shows that there’s nowhere near as many deer as there was in the 2000s. Yotes, EHD, liberal doe tags, etc…all play major role imo but end of the day I haven’t shot a doe since 12/13 as a result. Are there pockets like Daver is suggesting his area is where there’s high population? Probably. But I also wonder if the guys that are saying that are just using personal opinion vs verified facts/data (Not pointing at you specifically Daver, no disrespect intended) because there’s too many guys that say that for the data to show the opposite.

Yotes- Shoot em and trap em all! Lay off the does in 90% of the Midwest at least for a couple years, doesn’t need to be long term. Just my opinion as a hunter. Farmer probably feels exact opposite haha.
 
Rous14 said:
Few thoughts and questions this generates for me.

And I’ll preface this by saying that I’ve been on a rant about the over harvesting of does, lower deer numbers in general, lower quality/quantity of bucks in general for many years now (since 2012/13 severe ehd years). The next article you see published about not shooting does (or at least greatly reducing the overall harvest of does) will be the first one. Drives me crazy.

So to your point Skip, if coyote numbers are as high as they’ve maybe ever been (and my observation/opinion is the same) and theyre doing great damage to the fawn survival rate but yet we continue to feel there’s a surplus of does that we feel compelled to shoot then which is it? In other words if there’s plenty of does for us to shoot then it’s kind of hard to sell the too many coyotes, major threat conversation isn’t it?

Most all of the data in the Midwest shows that there’s nowhere near as many deer as there was in the 2000s. Yotes, EHD, liberal doe tags, etc…all play major role imo but end of the day I haven’t shot a doe since 12/13 as a result. Are there pockets like Daver is suggesting his area is where there’s high population? Probably. But I also wonder if the guys that are saying that are just using personal opinion vs verified facts/data (Not pointing at you specifically Daver, no disrespect intended) because there’s too many guys that say that for the data to show the opposite.

Yotes- Shoot em and trap em all! Lay off the does in 90% of the Midwest at least for a couple years, doesn’t need to be long term. Just my opinion as a hunter. Farmer probably feels exact opposite haha.
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No offense taken, but just a little more perspective on my thoughts...

I have been ALL OVER eastern and a segment of SE Iowa over the years and have now had my farm in NE Davis County for about 20 years. I have driven that drive probably hundreds of times over the years and remember well when deer #'s were so high that it was an accomplishment NOT to hit one on a given trip.

Over the balance of that distance I would say that numbers are clearly down over almost all of that region. It's just that within a couple miles of my farm we still have PLENTY, even far too many. A feeling confirmed by all neighboring landowners too, FWIW. I am fairly certain we are in the exception category, for whatever reason, but I do not dispute that numbers in many other areas are down.
 
Coyotes are major problem. I strongly believe in killing as many as possible. It is too bad the deer organizations don't sponsor more hunts, or put money toward their demise!
 
Daver said:
No offense taken, but just a little more perspective on my thoughts...

I have been ALL OVER eastern and a segment of SE Iowa over the years and have now had my farm in NE Davis County for about 20 years. I have driven that drive probably hundreds of times over the years and remember well when deer #'s were so high that it was an accomplishment NOT to hit one on a given trip.

Over the balance of that distance I would say that numbers are clearly down over almost all of that region. It's just that within a couple miles of my farm we still have PLENTY, even far too many. A feeling confirmed by all neighboring landowners too, FWIW. I am fairly certain we are in the exception category, for whatever reason, but I do not dispute that numbers in many other areas are down.
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10-4 and I don’t doubt you. To your comment about not hitting one was an accomplishment back in those days…..

There was probably too many deer for a stretch there but that’s purely from a motorist and farming standpoint imo. I’ve had many a conversation and differing opinion with outdoor writers, hunting industry folks, outfitters, DNR, etc….that all they ever talk about is how healthy it is for the herd to reduce the numbers, kill more does, reduce, reduce, reduce and I always ask them to tell me by what metric was the herd unhealthy for those 8-12 years where there was 20-50% more deer and the hunting was PHENOMENAL. Clearly there was enough habitat to sustain them and clearly they were healthy as evidenced by the significantly higher number of booners walking around. The size and weight of those animals was just like todays increasingly rare 5 or 6yr old. Huge!

I just think that the whole “kill does for herd management” idea while it has some validity in rare circumstances, the pendulum has swung waayyyy too far. 80% of hunters want to hear their gun go bang, want to fling their crossbow bolt at 50 yards and draw blood. I get it, that’s fun. So you don’t have to twist their arm to shoot 4-7 deer a year. It gets justified in the name of herd management. I don’t buy it. And now that it’s so widely accepted and promoted it’s going to be hard to bring back.
 
Keep in mind guys, coyote trappers seldom go into the deep timber.
On private land with permission, the vast majority will set right on the sides of vehicle trails/field edges.
It's not gonna spook a buck off your land.
Also, when a trapper is ready to start, let them.
Nothing turns me off (as a trapper) more then a yes with a bunch of stipulations.
Especially now with horrible fur prices.
 
Hard for trappers to trap when they can’t trap the right areas at the right time.

I love trapping coyotes.


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Skip sounds like you must be in a coyote travel corridor and should sell the farm. If taking 65 to 80 coyotes doesn’t make a dent in the population then I don’t know what does. I know some good trappers that don’t trap that many on their entire line in a year. Let alone a single farm. One suggestion to all in regards to coyotes is to REALLY work on the local coyotes in February March April as these coyotes are residents to an area and most won’t move around again until early fall.
 
Rous14 said:
Few thoughts and questions this generates for me.

And I’ll preface this by saying that I’ve been on a rant about the over harvesting of does, lower deer numbers in general, lower quality/quantity of bucks in general for many years now (since 2012/13 severe ehd years). The next article you see published about not shooting does (or at least greatly reducing the overall harvest of does) will be the first one. Drives me crazy.

So to your point Skip, if coyote numbers are as high as they’ve maybe ever been (and my observation/opinion is the same) and theyre doing great damage to the fawn survival rate but yet we continue to feel there’s a surplus of does that we feel compelled to shoot then which is it? In other words if there’s plenty of does for us to shoot then it’s kind of hard to sell the too many coyotes, major threat conversation isn’t it?

Most all of the data in the Midwest shows that there’s nowhere near as many deer as there was in the 2000s. Yotes, EHD, liberal doe tags, etc…all play major role imo but end of the day I haven’t shot a doe since 12/13 as a result. Are there pockets like Daver is suggesting his area is where there’s high population? Probably. But I also wonder if the guys that are saying that are just using personal opinion vs verified facts/data (Not pointing at you specifically Daver, no disrespect intended) because there’s too many guys that say that for the data to show the opposite.

Yotes- Shoot em and trap em all! Lay off the does in 90% of the Midwest at least for a couple years, doesn’t need to be long term. Just my opinion as a hunter. Farmer probably feels exact opposite haha.
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My “made up map” from being around most the state & being in lots of areas and counties. N of Line I made (75% of state) low deer #’s and where coyotes can keep populations from growing. IMO.
Below it is where we still have “good populations” of deer. I’ll be honest- I know maybe 30-40 “pockets” with very high deer #’s but that’s maybe 5% of the ground overall. MOST farms are no where near carrying capacity. Im talking about the southern area on bottom of my line.

So- most the state is well below carrying capacity & 75% of the whole state is “too low” for deer #’s and coyotes are especially a threat. My rough sketch & opinion.

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Sligh1 said:
My “made up map” from being around most the state & being in lots of areas and counties. N of Line I made (75% of state) low deer #’s and where coyotes can keep populations from growing. IMO.
Below it is where we still have “good populations” of deer. I’ll be honest- I know maybe 30-40 “pockets” with very high deer #’s but that’s maybe 5% of the ground overall. MOST farms are no where near carrying capacity. Im talking about the southern area on bottom of my line.

So- most the state is well below carrying capacity & 75% of the whole state is “too low” for deer #’s and coyotes are especially a threat. My rough sketch & opinion.

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Yep, I think we’re essentially saying the same thing. And agree wholeheartedly that 95% of iowa and Illinois, probably other states too, are well below carrying capacity. Think about that statement, 95%! And yet like I said I can’t tell you the last time I read an article about that. It’s weird to me. It’s just become so accepted that it’s almost like taboo or you’d lose credibility as an outdoor writer to suggest that the herd needs to grow by reducing doe harvest. Blows my mind.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the notion that traditional QDM practices pushes doe harvest way too broadly, at least on highly productive midwest farms. On my farm in west central Illinois at least half the does are without fawn and those with a fawn typically have only one fawn. I can only assume this from predation. Until I notice a lack of available native browse I won't be making any effort to remove does. Between coyotes, bobcats, ehd, and neighbors, they have plenty of pressure.
A high doe population might be one of the best ways to negate the effects of an EHD out-break as well.

As to coyotes, I am optimistic that the key to limiting their numbers is getting deer hunters interested in hunting with thermals. I took up that pursuit last year and really enjoyed it. It is a very effective technique for removing coyotes and raccoons (ridicously effective on coons actually). There is some skill involved and some of the best hunting is after the season so if you're not interested, you can find a crew that is ethical and skilled and offer up your place to them and see what they can do.

I still struggle with the notion that hunting/trapping coyotes does not negatively effect coyote populations. I'm sure over multiple breeding seasons coyotes can make up numbers through increased litter size due to available territory and influx of coyotes from other locations. However, it is obvious to me that if a coyote moves into your location it came from somewhere that now has one less coyote, which is still a net loss to the coyote population. More obviously, a dead female coyote cannot reproduce.

What are everyone's thoughts on bucks being more huntable and healthier if they have less does to breed? Seems to make sense although will they just move to another location to attempt to breed other unbred does and have hostile encounters with other bucks? I've also seen it suggested that having less does makes a property more hospitable to bucks due to less social stress. Great topic.
 
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