Timber stand bedding

[MOBOWHUNTER]

Hey guys I am new to the forum and wanted to get some input from you on creating bedding in the timber. To give you some backstory I am from SWMO and I own 60 acres of nothing but hardwood timber every acre of my place is immature oaks (very small crowns) that are way to densely populated along with the junk trees of bitternut hickory and sassafras. Slowly over the last couple of years I have been carving food plots out with a dozer and working on trying to get some bedding/cover, Last winter I started my bedding projects by completing a 13 acre TSI at a medium rate. I have another 12 acre TSI planned for this coming winter with 1 acre of that being split into two 1/2 acre temporary forest openings. So I understand that a chainsaw is your best friend when it comes to creating bedding but my real question is how would you go about creating those designated bedding in the timber where you want the deer to bed? Hack and squirt and fire? Hinge cutting a large area? I plan on burning the first TSI this spring and was gonna follow behind the burn and plant some cedar and shrubs to try and really get them bedding where I want them to which is in close proximity to plots. So hopefully you guys have some input on the situation.

P.S There seems to be way more knowledge on here than on the Missouri Whitetails page.. Hopefully you don't mind this question from the south!

 

[Bassattackr]

Welcome to the forum. Also a MO guy here.

Don't worry about "creating bedding" through hinging. If you're doing TSI on the property, that already creates great bedding (That is much superior to hinging)! You'll get a tremendous habitat response within a year or (especially) two after doing TSI projects. Deer will bed where they 1) Feel safe and undisturbed and 2) Have good vantage, wind, thermal points. You can't create bedding if they don't want to be there.

Within the timber, hinging is a waste IMO. If they're inferior trees, just cut them. If they're good future trees, don't hinge them (or cut them at all ). Can always leave untreated if you want a lot of stump sprouting, browse.. Personally, I only hinge on 1) Edges where I want to direct deer travel or 2) Areas where I need a screen for access.

Be sure and create your food plots on flatter locations (topo wise - ridges or bottoms) and most importantly, where you can get clean access in and out from! Good luck!

 

[MOBOWHUNTER]

@Bassattackr Thanks for the response! When I did the first initial TSI the only trees that would get hinged were inferior oaks and I didn't do it much as I am not a huge fan of hinge cutting. Any junk trees got cut down and treated. I just want to try and make some of the areas that I know have been used for bedding before a little better than just the TSI if that makes sense. I know that the TSI will make it to where deer can bed about anywhere but I want to try and isolate that into the areas close to the plots for better potential of daylight use of the food. Adding cover has already helped on that a little.

 

[Sligh1]

Welcome!
You pretty confident on species identification & choosing higher quality trees I assume?
If you cut every bitternut on that place- really couldn’t go wrong .
If you are opening your canopy substantially & taking inferior trees out to do it- big part of the way there.
Bassattackr pretty much summed up my thoughts. Agree with above 100%.

When u cut an oak or desireable tree - don’t treat those. Cut them lower or around knee to waste for safety…. The regrowth is premium nutrition & deer will often browse it so hard it kills the tree over time. Your stand looks super thick, like u described- thin that sucker way down & most your goals will be realized pretty quick. You’ve got a lot of cutting to do!!!!

 

[MOBOWHUNTER]

@Sligh1 I was hoping you would respond. In my particular stand I have way to many oaks per acre. So quite a bit of thinning was also on mast trees. And yes I am constantly trying to get better on my tree ID. Last year I made the mistake of cutting 2 native persimmons that were about 20 ft tall.. After getting over the nausea I decided to get better with tree ID! But bitternut and sassafras trees are my arch nemesis on this place! I have 100's of them per acre.

 

[Sligh1]

@Sligh1 I was hoping you would respond. In my particular stand I have way to many oaks per acre. So quite a bit of thinning was also on mast trees. And yes I am constantly trying to get better on my tree ID. Last year I made the mistake of cutting 2 native persimmons that were about 20 ft tall.. After getting over the nausea I decided to get better with tree ID! But bitternut and sassafras trees are my arch nemesis on this place! I have 100's of them per acre.

Get state forester in there. Bring a bunch of cans of tree marking paint.
If u want to work at your own pace…. Start by targeting the “junk”. Like the bitternut. You can cut every single on u see if u want. They snap & are brittle, so- if cut through be careful.
Your oaks…. Keep diversity of them. Clearly pick the best to release and thin the inferior around them.
U lucky dog with the persimmons!!!!!! If u ever get any seed, I’d love some BTW . If u didn’t treat the tree u cut on accident - it will grow back fast. One nice part about persimmons.

If u listed the common species on your land, I could rank top to bottom based on species & also the trees that “you can’t go wrong cutting”. If we wanted to make this really simple/basic…. Get a list of the “5 trees can’t go wrong” & cut the living daylights out of them.
If u hinged “1 tree out of 20”- that would probably be ok. Examples of Trees that hinge: shag bark hickory, elm, hackberry, etc. Trees that don’t hinge: ash, red & black oak, bitternut, etc. The rest u want to double girdle or top off- which will be vast majority.

If able- cut & spray or nasal spray stuff like multiflora rose or another invasives. Not hard if stay on em every few years. I don’t wanna make broad statements with forestry BUT…. It’s pretty hard to overcut timber if you make sure you don’t take out your top tier crop trees. Open that baby up!!

Lot of info here too.

Timber Stand Improvment

I'm hoping to start doing some TSI on my timbered areas so I thought I would start a thread on the subject. I am by no means an expert so it's a "learn as you go" project. We already have a thread on Edge Feathering and Bedding Areas but that type of timber work is more akin to "butchering"...

iowawhitetail.com

 

[MOBOWHUNTER]

After this TSI I have had native persimmons popping up everywhere! But the next twelve acres are already marked out. This stand is a little different from the last. Lots of junk in this one but also a lot of white oak so those will take the top priority. I mostly have red oak but whites are starting to make a comeback. As for invasives I haven’t really had much of an issue with them yet.. so we will stay on top of it. Hoping to have this one done by January this year

 

[cybball]

Small tip I learned on my place as I'm horrible at tree ID. Like Skip said, get cans of tree paint and run through now while there are leaves. I do marking in summer and cutting/thinning in winter. I did have a state forestry guy walk my place with me to show me what he thought. He helped me ID trees and got me started.

 

[Mrc]

Get state forester in there. Bring a bunch of cans of tree marking paint.
If u want to work at your own pace…. Start by targeting the “junk”. Like the bitternut. You can cut every single on u see if u want. They snap & are brittle, so- if cut through be careful.
Your oaks…. Keep diversity of them. Clearly pick the best to release and thin the inferior around them.
U lucky dog with the persimmons!!!!!! If u ever get any seed, I’d love some BTW . If u didn’t treat the tree u cut on accident - it will grow back fast. One nice part about persimmons.

If u listed the common species on your land, I could rank top to bottom based on species & also the trees that “you can’t go wrong cutting”. If we wanted to make this really simple/basic…. Get a list of the “5 trees can’t go wrong” & cut the living daylights out of them.
If u hinged “1 tree out of 20”- that would probably be ok. Examples of Trees that hinge: shag bark hickory, elm, hackberry, etc. Trees that don’t hinge: ash, red & black oak, bitternut, etc. The rest u want to double girdle or top off- which will be vast majority.

If able- cut & spray or nasal spray stuff like multiflora rose or another invasives. Not hard if stay on em every few years. I don’t wanna make broad statements with forestry BUT…. It’s pretty hard to overcut timber if you make sure you don’t take out your top tier crop trees. Open that baby up!!

Lot of info here too.

Timber Stand Improvment

I'm hoping to start doing some TSI on my timbered areas so I thought I would start a thread on the subject. I am by no means an expert so it's a "learn as you go" project. We already have a thread on Edge Feathering and Bedding Areas but that type of timber work is more akin to "butchering"...

iowawhitetail.com

I wanted to ask you about bitternut hickory. I’m in northeast Ohio and have 40 acres of woods in the forest program. I have had state foresters on my property 3 times in the last 12 years. Not one has recommended removing the bitternut hickory. The last one was also a timber buyer doing a new forest plan for me. I asked him about the bitternuts because I have a lot of nice ones with straight trunks and no limbs for quite a distance. He said they are graded as pecan with the other hickories. Did not mention anything about them being undesirable. So they should all be cut down?

 

[Sligh1]

I wanted to ask you about bitternut hickory. I’m in northeast Ohio and have 40 acres of woods in the forest program. I have had state foresters on my property 3 times in the last 12 years. Not one has recommended removing the bitternut hickory. The last one was also a timber buyer doing a new forest plan for me. I asked him about the bitternuts because I have a lot of nice ones with straight trunks and no limbs for quite a distance. He said they are graded as pecan with the other hickories. Did not mention anything about them being undesirable. So they should all be cut down?

i would for a few reasons….
1) they are called “bitternut” for a reason- squirrels don’t even like them or prefer them. Worthless.
2) lumber value is low. Yes, if u get high board feet bitternut- I’d sell them - no doubt. Or if u have a unique market where there is actually a buyer for them- that would change my mind. Over here, only way to sell them is as pallet wood. You could have a good market by region though.
3) the main one is this…. They usually are found in mixed stands with oak, walnut, cherry, etc etc. Of any tree that can occupy that space, the last pick would be a bitternut vs all the others that could fill in. It’s “taking up a spot”. Let something else fill that area. For a while it could simply be “open” for forage & young forest if it’s a bigger area. When I say “kill em all” …. Of Course no one is going to get them all but IMO …, if you even harvest the best & kill the rest - you really aren’t doing much or any harm.
If i gave my opinion on “tree ranking” for wildlife, forest diversity composition & timber value, bitternut would be towards bottom. Not dead last but close. That’s just my opinion though & forestry management is very subjective. On flip side, yes, if u do have marketable bitternut - I’d sell them if you have enough & it won’t damage other more desirable trees by taking them out. I kill my bitternuts but never in a gazillion years will I have them wiped out . Too many.

 

[Mrc]

Possibly they grow bigger here. The forester had no preference between the shagbark and the bitternut. Most of mine are tall and straight but not ready to harvest.16to 18”. Most of my woods is softy maple,cherry,tulip poplar,and hickory. Some red oak and hard maple. I looked up your posts about bitternut hickories and in one it said they only live about 50 years because of problems and disease. When I researched them it said they were the shortest lived of the hickories. About 200 years compared to 400 years for some of the others. Ohio list of trees states that the bitternut hickory has no pests or diseases. I’m partial to hickory because I built a new house and put solid hickory flooring. (Hickory was premium priced for the flooring.) put Birdseye hickory ( rustic too many holes for flooring) on my living room cealing. I also put rustic hickory cabinets in a kitchen I put in my garage. Paid premium for them to. I was told yellow birch was considered a weed in Ohio by the forester but I told him I like having some on my property and he said that was fine. He recommended cutting down beech trees because the crowns get too big . I have some I like and know the deer like the nuts so I leave some big ones I have along the river bank. I know hickories aren’t the highest paying but I had never heard of cutting them all down.

 

[Mrc]

Here’s some hickories on my property

 

[Mrc]

A lot of them have no limbs for over thirty feet.

 

[MOBOWHUNTER]

Yeah those things would definitely get cut and sprayed at my place the real estate under that canopy is worth more than that tree in my eyes. But like skip I am on the kill em all side of the fence

 

[Daver]

I too have some pignut(bitternut) hickories and while they are nice tree to look at and I have had some dandies in terms long, straight logs...I consider them firewood. They have no wildlife value that I can determine and they create A LOT of shade. They would be among the first trees cut if I was starting over in a timber.

 

[Sligh1]

Here’s some hickories on my propertyView attachment 123154View attachment 123155View attachment 123156View attachment 123157View attachment 123158

Nice straight poles!! Wow- nice formed trees!
Any tall tree at the peak of maturity/market is a tree to think about logging. Junk or great. Theres a few exceptions to that (like with white oak if u r lacking & need oak regeneration or other unique examples). A guy may have a couple hundred cottonwood & if they are mature trees- a nice sale & all that forest floor now able to regenerate. Walnut to a select oak harvest - taking any out is wise IF the market is high & IF the trees are at their peak value. & IF it aligns with your goals. Logging in general is clearly beneficial to deer & habitat. Obviously combined with expertise & competition in bidding.

Ya- in iowa bitternut often succumb to disease. I’d agree that 50 is probably a pretty good estimate. I simply choose to not let them get to 50 . I love a diverse mix of trees that include hickory but only one I have is shagbark. It usually grows in clumps 5-10x what makes a healthy tree so I thin down to one of the best stems.
Any “big tall straight trees” do have merit to let get to maturity as any species will have more value fitting those terms. Preference as to what species you want. Diversity of species is always critical. No right or wrong answers on some forestry decisions due the each of our subjective goals, regions & preferences. I Agree with everyone above. Last part of my rant ….. most timber has ZERO done to it!!!! So preferences here or there- u automatically are a million miles Ahead with a sound forest management plan!

 

[Mrc]

In my area the woods are mostly soft maple. Ten miles away woods are mainly red oak. If I cut down all the low value trees
(soft maple,hickory,tulip poplar) I’d have what you’d call a field. I obviously don’t have a high value woods.Just didn’t understand why the bitternut had no lumber value but the shagbark did. If it’s just the nuts then o.k. I’ve never seen the deer eat them.The chance of me cutting down all the low value timber on my property for the deer is zero. Maples are pretty beautiful in the fall. Heat my house and garage with firewood. I like trees!

 

[MOBOWHUNTER]

@Mrc I agree for some situations. But my land is way over populated with trees which translates to a closed canopy forest which allows no sunlight to the floor and no native browse or cover. And at the end of the day if it doesn't make palatable mast, provide native browse, provide thermal cover, or have high value it needs to go. My personal goal for my place is wildlife habitat not timber value but I understand everyone has different goals and objectives for there own farms. So for me bitternut hickory provides none of those things as a standing tree. But I have noticed that if I cut one and don't get a good kill on it that the deer absolutely destroy the shoots coming off of the stumps.

 

[Mrc]

Different woods in different parts of the country. I understand that. Bitternut hickory does not dominate any area of my woods but is scattered here and there. I have plenty of maples to drop to help the deer. Deer love maple buds.

 

[Mrc]

I just looked up Ohio timber prices. Ohio Timber Report stumpage rates for the spring of 2022 by region.
I’m northeast .