Timber Stand Improvment

[letemgrow]

I would also like to note that I have great success with the 50% roundup method on killing trees....another note, I girdle the biggest trees since they are old enough that they will not coppice. This saves money since less chemicals are needed, or you can use those on the trees that really need it.

I did this method on some very largy honey locusts and hickories that I had and none of those trees resprouted after they were girdled.

 

[150 Class]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did this method on some very largy honey locusts and hickories that I had and none of those trees resprouted after they were girdled. </div></div>

The last time I tried that with honey locusts was the last time that I will do it since with girdling only and without adding chemicals, they like to resprout from the roots (a single tree will sprout 100s of them). They act the same as the black locusts. What did I do wrong?

 

[letemgrow]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 150 Class</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did this method on some very largy honey locusts and hickories that I had and none of those trees resprouted after they were girdled. </div></div>

The last time I tried that with honey locusts was the last time that I will do it since with girdling only and without adding chemicals, they like to resprout from the roots (a single tree will sprout 100s of them). They act the same as the black locusts. What did I do wrong? </div></div>


They were probably too young and can resprout...once a tree gets so old they won't resprout back. I had a logger take out some giant walnuts that were straight as a string and they sprouted back so I am sure they were not as old as most trees to be able to do that. He cut out a few locusts to get to them and some resprouted and some did not.

I only do that with honey locust and hickories that are REALLY big. I have good luck that way.

 

[darkhollow1]

dbltree, I was extremely suprised when I read that the black oak acorn is poisonous to wildlife. I have a few areas covered with black oaks that I have been promoting the past few years. I always wondered why there seemed to be more acorns in these areas than other areas with white/red oaks. This may explain this. However, I have been researching the black oak and everything I have found says wildlife eat the acorns. If the black oak mast is no good for wildlife would you consider this a cull tree or continue to promote? Any more information on this issue would be great! Thanks

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the black oak mast is no good for wildlife would you consider this a cull tree or continue to promote? </div></div>

It's not a cull tree because it is a valuable timber tree but if I have to choose between a black and almost any other oak, I will kill the black.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'>Warning</span>: Black Oak Acorns poisonous to animals if eaten. Humans should generally avoid ingesting plants that are toxic to animals. </div></div>

Black Oaks

Promote white oaks first and reds secondly and blacks (blacks are a red oak species) lastly would be my thoughts... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

 

[letemgrow]

I wonder if it is not because of the super high tannin content?? Luckily I have only found 2 black oaks on my place and only one of them is still alive....not for long though.

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: letemgrow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if it is not because of the super high tannin content?? Luckily I have only found 2 black oaks on my place and only one of them is still alive....not for long though. </div></div>

Here's another quote

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Black oak (Quercus velutina) is a native tree found only in southern Ontario. The acorns contain significant quantities of toxic phenolics. This plant caused sickness and death in cattle after they ingested acorns on autumn pastures. </div></div>

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

This post is to help identify hardwood crop trees that we would choose not to kill (assuming the cull trees are not the same species). We need to identify these trees by bark, twigs and possibly leaves during winter months.

I may add more from time to time but these are some of the common hardwood trees that we prefer to perpetuate for both timber and mast. White oak species being at the top of the list of preferred species for both timber and mast.

Later we'll discuss less desirable species and which trees to cull when more then one desirable species are growing close to each other and we may be faced with a diffcult choice.


Black Oak - Quercus velutina Lam.

Black Oak Bark

Black oak leaf (note that black oak is a member of the red oak family of which leaves will be "sharper" while white oaks are rounded)

Black Oak Acorns - note that Black Oak Acorns are toxic to most wildlife, livestock and children!

Black Oak Tree

Bur Oak - Quercus macrocarpa Michx.

Bur Oak Bark

Buds and leaf scars

Tree in winter

Summer Bur Oak

Bur Oak Leaf

Bur Oak Acorn

Pin Oak - Quercus palustris

Pin Oak Bark

Pin Oak Leaves

Pin Oak Acorns

Pin Oak Tree

Pin Oak Twigs

Northern Red Oak - Quercus rubra

Northern Red Oak Bark

Northern Red Oak Leaves - note how sharp the pointed the leaves are as compared to white oak species. White oak acorns are highly favored by wildlife versus the high tannin bitter tasting red oak acorns.

Northern Red Oak Acorns

Northern Red Oak Tree

Northern Red Oak Buds

White Oak - Quercus alba L.

White Oak Bark

White Oak Leaves - note the very rounded or blunt globes of the leave compared to the sharp pointed red oak species.

White Oak Acorns - White oak acorns are highly sought after by wildlife!

White Oak Tree - most white oak species tend to be rounder and more open sprawling then red oak species.

White Oak Stem/Bud

Swamp White Oak (Quercus bicolor)

Swamp White Oak Bark

Swamp White Oak Leaves

Swamp White Oak Acorns

Swamp White Oak Tree

Black Walnut - Juglans nigra L.

Black Walnut trees are toxic to other trees and shrubs, the nuts are not sought after by whitetails and despite what many are lead to believe, most trees in open areas will not be as vaulable as thought.

Black Walnut Bark

Black Walnut Leaves

Black Walnuts - In fall and early winter these will be laying under the tree and easily identified.

Black Walnut Twigs

Black Walnut Tree

Black Cherry - Prunus serotina Ehrh.

Black Cherry Bark

Black Cherry Leaves

Black Cherry Fruit

Black Cherry Tree

Black Cherry Twigs

American Elm - Ulmus americana L.

American Elm Bark on bottom, Slippery Elm on top

American Elm Bark

American Elm Leaves

American Elm Tree

American Elm winter twig

American Beech - Fagus grandifolia Ehrh.

There are few beech trees in our area but they are a good wildlife tree and would be considered important, so care should be taken not to cull one by accident.

American Beech Bark

American Beech Leaf

American Beech Winter Leaf

American Beech Tree

American Beech Twig

Using Anatomy and Habitat to Identify a Tree

Hardwood Forestry Images

 

[LoessHillsArcher]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Awesome stuff Paul! I've been keeping an eye out more and more for the tree variety in our timbers, finding lots of bur and white oaks! Also got some "junk" trees we call them that we'll have to take pics of next time but no clue what they are?? Going to be doing some printing and studying before our TSI project this Feb. Mar. and Apr!

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoessHillsArcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome stuff Paul! I've been keeping an eye out more and more for the tree variety in our timbers, finding lots of bur and white oaks! Also got some "junk" trees we call them that we'll have to take pics of next time but no clue what they are?? Going to be doing some printing and studying before our TSI project this Feb. Mar. and Apr! </div></div>

good idea to id for sure before you cut...I about cut down a patch of basswood before I knew what they were. Now I just need to find a beekeeper to bring a hive or two up and plac by them since they apparently make the sweetest honey.

Something I am doing is not just selecting for white oaks (even though they are #1) they seem to produce sporadically so I want at least as many reds (northern red oaks preferably) as I do whites to give more consistent acorn crops.

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

I would also like to note that deer absolutely devour my seedling black walnuts and stump sprouts from when the logger took out timber quality trees. I had to put guards around them just so they could get out of their reach.

It seems to be perfect browse for deer so they will always have a place on my farm and they keep squirrels around which are your main acorn planters anyways.

 

[Sligh1]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

RANDOM BUT POSSIBLY VALUABLE TREES?????.....
I see on many lists to crop tree release Elms. Anyone do that? Valuable timber? I am a bit hesitant because the usually die early before mature anyways.

Letemgrow- I have been good about not killing basswood BUT I've never sold any, are you saving because it's a valuable tree (I don't know much on basswood value).

How bout ash, couple different kinds - on occasion I'll release a few really straight ones and do it to diversify (not over an oak or something).

Hickory- (shagbark, shellbark,) anyone free these up? I'm covered with them so usually they don't get my attention like they maybe should???

Cherry- obviously talked about in CTR- have the trouble that they don't grow super straight quite often AND don't get as big as other trees BUT I seem to find plenty that make a great release tree. Y'all do this too? Thoughts on cherry? *dont hear about cherry nearly as much as oak and walnut.

Maple- super straight ones. I'll release on occasion.

OBVIOUSLY everyone on here's probably concentrating on Oaks and walnuts. Curious your take on some of the above, how it fits into your plan and how you decide on some of those.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

My personal feeling is that unless any one of the trees you mentioned has reached the "vaulable" stage I'm not going to worry about "releasing" it.

Keep in mind what my forestor suggests and what I do are two different hings. I value his insight and expertise, however a forestors goals and mine may be slightly different... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I have dead elms all over my farm and it's only a matter of time before the ash trees go the way of the elms.

Hickories I have everywhere...I use those areas for bedding ares by hinge cutting.

Cherry...I try to leave unless it's between a cherry and an oak/walnut.

Those are all personal choices for which there is no right or wrong IMO. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RANDOM BUT POSSIBLY VALUABLE TREES?????.....
I see on many lists to crop tree release Elms. Anyone do that? Valuable timber? I am a bit hesitant because the usually die early before mature anyways.

Letemgrow- I have been good about not killing basswood BUT I've never sold any, are you saving because it's a valuable tree (I don't know much on basswood value).

How bout ash, couple different kinds - on occasion I'll release a few really straight ones and do it to diversify (not over an oak or something).

Hickory- (shagbark, shellbark,) anyone free these up? I'm covered with them so usually they don't get my attention like they maybe should???

Cherry- obviously talked about in CTR- have the trouble that they don't grow super straight quite often AND don't get as big as other trees BUT I seem to find plenty that make a great release tree. Y'all do this too? Thoughts on cherry? *dont hear about cherry nearly as much as oak and walnut.

Maple- super straight ones. I'll release on occasion.

OBVIOUSLY everyone on here's probably concentrating on Oaks and walnuts. Curious your take on some of the above, how it fits into your plan and how you decide on some of those.



</div></div>


I go in a step plan basically, oaks/walnuts get first choice in a site and then cherry etc.

That said I cut most all hickory trees and leave a few for diversity. I leave the ash till the bitter end too. I don't worry about leaving elms as they seem to die pretty quickly and spread plenty along the way.

I left the basswood mainly because there are only 3 patches that I have found on my farm and I like diversity so they stay. If I was loaded with basswood and few oaks you can bet some basswood would get cut down for sure.

If some areas do not have any oak, walnut cherry etc I won't cut all the crap trees out, but will hinge cut most of them to see if anything will regenerate that is desirable.

Basswood was used to make duck decoys, not sure if they are still that way or not.

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

some examples,

If I have a swamp white oak and a shingle oak together, the shingle oak goes. If I have a shingle oak and a hickory the hickory goes.

On my place if I have a northern red with 2 smaller whites around it then white oaks go as I have far more white oaks than northern reds and I am looking for more balance with better timber value.

Nothing tops a straight walnut though that is healthy and in great shape in the creek bottom /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

I've been working on my TSI and I have to say it was very enjoyable and enlightening to mark my own crop trees.

One never will get intimately familiar with your timber and surrounding habitat until embarking on a journey into Timber Stand Improvment.

Hiring it done will certainly get the job done, but you will never look at "tree bark", nor stare up at canopies and really inderstand what your looking at when you let someone else do it.

TSI isn't for every individual but it's something to think about if you would like to learn and truely embrace "improving" your timber and whitetail habitat.

I have been taking a ton of pics so just for fun, I'm curious if any of you would care to identify these trees by bark.

Tree 1

Tree 2

Tree 3

Tree 4

Tree 5

Couple trees could be the same and one I am not sure of the idenity myself, so I'm curious to hear some feedback.

A couple of them are very easy and you can find them a couple posts back in known "bark" pictures.

Please post your thoughts on idenity of those 5 trees... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

I will take a stab at them:

Tree#1 Walnut
Tree#2 Bur Oak??
Tree#3 Northern Red Oak
Tree#4 White Oak??
Tree#5 still thinking on that one /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[letemgrow]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

guess this one and I think I have the right answer, but could be off on this one. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[Sligh1]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

Wish i could see some leaves and stems at the end!!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
#1 is a black oak (or walnut that has not had full light or premium soil conditions)
#2 Burr Oak BUT it looks more like a black locust which you aren't going to free up I would hope!
#3 is Red Oak
#4 looks like those trees you often see in hedge rows- not hedge, not mulberry, not box elder BUT something you see in those situations- I can't put my finger on it. Could be american elm but I doubt it. I guess i'm stumped here- too rough/course for white oak. I DON'T KNOW?!!?!?
#5 Stumped here as well, I thought swamp white for a second, then thought American Elm but pretty sure that ain't right. I'll just go with Swamp oak even though I'm stumped here.

Man oh man, them beez tricky!

Phil, what you got there- Chinquapin of some type?!?

 

[dbltree]

Re: Timber Stand Improvment - identifing trees

The first three are:

1) Black Oak
2) Burr Oak
3) Red Oak

4 and 5 I'm not sure about.

I sent Ray Lehn a pic of #4 so I'll see what he says.

I know I have a high percentage of black oak, then split between burr and reds but true "white oaks" I think are pretty scarce (bummer /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif )

My tree planting this year will have plenty of swamp white oaks and burr oaks along with the hybrids.

I'm curious about Phil's tree? Looks kinda like a chestnut shaped leaf but perhpas not a chestnut tree??

Cool stuff! I really enjoy learning more about our trees and did I mentions...I'm sore from running the chainsaw! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Here's a few more pics of oak bark and descriptions in this link:

Oaks

Burr oak

Black Oak

Northern Red Oak

I noticed that red oaks can have many variations

This link has tons of great ID pics:

Identify the Oaks

It also has many other tree types so I need to keep comparing pics! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif