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"Cull deer"

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BOWSTRING

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After shotgun season I've been thinking allot about this. It's probably been brought up before but I haven't seen it.
During shotgun season a couple guys shot some smaller (1.5yrs) bucks. No problem it happens. Then someone comes up and says it's a cull buck it needed to be taken out of the gene pool.
I'm like no it just needed to grow at least 2 more years.
I'm just wonderinig if people really think they can change the deer genetics by shooting one or a couple deer?
To me it seems impossible. If you wait til there mature they've already spread there genes. If you shoot young ones you never know what they could've been.
If you want his genes gone from your deer herd you'd have to kill his entire family wouldn't you? Mother,father,grandparents, kids and so on.
Seems more like a justification of shooting a less desireable deer.
I read an article in either the QDMA magazine or Deer and Deer hunting. They took I think 4 yearling buck. With different antler size (spike up to 8 point) and watched them til they where I believe 5 or 6.
What they found was at maturity they where all basically the same size. If I rememaber 150" to 160". They stated that they just grow at different rates. Some peak early some have steady progress each year and some peak late.
Not saying every deer will grow to be at least 150". I just don't think a person can actually change the gene pool in the deer herd.
 
IMO, A cull deer should be a mature buck with unwanted traits, such as small body size or small rack size. You can’t tell that until the deer has reached maturely. Calling a small, young buck a cull deer is for the shooter to feel good, not for a better herd.
I don't have that big of an issue with people shooting small bucks (I try not to), it's differant for each person. But if it's a small buck, it's a small buck. Stop BSing yourself.
 
I agree with everything Musky Hunter wrote. All deer are born with their genetics (all animals for that matter). They do not change with age. Shoot a 1 1/2 year old deer and you may have just shot what may have been a future B&C. While it makes some difference by taking out inferior mature bucks, by the time you know a buck may be considered a "cull" buck, a lot of the damage is already done. I know it makes a difference but for free ranging wild deer, it probably is not significant. Given a more controlled situation, it does make a significant difference.

Also, very few of us are willing to use our limited tags for culling specific inferior animals. Most of us would rather use them on the deer with the superior genetics. I have had a couple inferior bucks over the years that I would like to have tagged but I always passed them early season to save my tag and never had the chances to tag them late in the season.
 
That's why I try not to even kill a spike, every buck has potential until he actually reaches maturity.

As mentioned, each hunter should be proud of his harvests but no sense trying to "sugar coat" it...just be proud of it or let it walk... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
I agree with all, you never know what they will be if they aren't mature to begin with when you shoot them.
 
I personally don't think that you can improve your trophy genetics by culling but I do think that you can improve the quality of bucks that you keep in your area by removing mature deer that are smaller in the antler department. By passing mature bucks with small antlers you are letting them be the dominant buck in your area and decreasing the odds that a super racked 3 1/2 year old will stay on your property. I think that every situation is different but "culling" and 1 1/2 year old's definitely don't go together.
 
Exellent post KURTISH. Removing deer that you don't want to let other hopefully better deer move in is something that I think is possible. That makes sense.
Removing cetain genes or traits from your deer herd I don't think is possible.
Seems everyone agrees shooting young bucks is not going to grow big bucks. Not that that is what everyone is after. Which is up to that hunter.
I just don't think that saying you're removing his genes from the gene pool is correct and you hear it allot on the hunting shows and it's evidently catching on.
The only thing you remove is that deer his genes will still be in the gene pool for years to come specially if you waited til he is mature.
Sorry I'm just rambling on. I'm bored at work for 2 more hours and it's been kinda slow around here.
 
I think it stands to reason you can improve the genetics of the herd by shooting managment bucks if you're looking at the long term. We're talking about herd animals, individuals affect the whole. Rather than rely upon size though, I'd be looking for reocurring undesirable traits in a given buck by using cams. Yeah, he might be mature or approaching mature by the time you can verify but would you rather he breed for a couple years or 4-5 or more potentially? Maybe the genes are already out there but they'll be out there to a lesser degree if he's killed. I do agree with an earlier comment that most of us don't have the tags to actually do this on a regular basis though so in many ways I think it's all a moot point for the average Joe hunter. But if you could pattern one for a youth hunter it might be a golden opportunity. Will it make a monumental difference? Maybe, probably depends on how vigilant you are and how many opportunities you create for yourself by being resourceful. I doubt if I could pull it off to a seriously noticeable difference but I do think it CAN be done at least to some degree and that question seems to be the point of the thread.
 
good points had by all, but i pose a question to all of you. If you have a large heard on lets say, 200 acres, with no hunting pressure, and the rack sizes seem small,(goofy looking) no mass, Could this be caused by cross breeding?Their food source shouldnt be an issue as there are an abundance of corn, alfalfa, acorns ect. Every yr i drive by this guys place during rut and i never see any mature deer, i see (lots of Deer) but just a bunch of dinks.He never lets anyone hunt it and the population gets bigger after shotgun season. I wouldnt think all 150s could stay nocturnal that long. Any thoughts?
 
If anybody needs any undesirable bucks removed, let me know, since I only care about the meat, I will use my one anysex tag to help you out /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I use it to take a doe every year anyway.

I saw them doing management hunts on a program on the Versus channel. Pretty cool. As for manipulating genetics on free ranging deer, I think it would be pretty hard.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kurtish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally don't think that you can improve your trophy genetics by culling but I do think that you can improve the quality of bucks that you keep in your area by removing mature deer that are smaller in the antler department. By passing mature bucks with small antlers you are letting them be the dominant buck in your area and decreasing the odds that a super racked 3 1/2 year old will stay on your property. I think that every situation is different but "culling" and 1 1/2 year old's definitely don't go together. </div></div>

I firmly believe this. A property will only hold so many mature deer....it's just nature. Mature bucks will simply not tolerate being close to each other all the time and because of this the attrition rate on a farm will be greater IMO if you keep lots of mature bucks on your farm.

I believe it's all right to start at 3 1/2 to start culling deer. If I have a 120" 8 pt, 140 10 pt, and a 150" 11 pt that are all 3 I believe you would want to get rid of that 3 yr old 8 because he could run off your better genetic deer. Plus let's face it, he is much easier to kill at 3 rather than letting him get to 4 and much tougher to kill.

I know that deer could jump from 120 to 160" the next year (mine did this year from 4-5yr old) but we don't know that. We know the odds that the others will grow much bigger is better that's for sure.

This is the biggest problem to me in trophy management today is guys shooting only the great bucks off a farm and letting those less desirable deer get bigger and older.

If you have a great buck on a property that has great food, water, and cover I believe getting rid of other bucks and thinning the doe herd will help ensure that he will stick around.
 
I've never once heard anyone talk about shooting cull does!!!!!!!

I had an interesting conversation with a guy from Ohio a few years ago that raised, bred, and sold whitetails. In his experience, good does was just as, or more important to breeding big bucks as big bucks are. He found out by using straws from the same buck and breeding several does. Some of those fawns turned out great and some were just average. But the same doe that had good fawns from one bucks also had good fawns from a different good buck. And the does that had average or (cull) bucks seldom produced big bucks. There's definetly a science to it. That's why you don't see 200 inch deer in every woods. There's no dought there are (cull deer out there. Onecam's deer is a good example. But Onecam also had some history with that deer and knew it had reaced it's full potential. To me it would be pretty difficult to define a wild free roaming cull deer when you have never seen it before. To try to improve a wild free roaming deer herd from the end of a 12 gauge would be an immense challenge.

Tell your friends they shouldn't apply everything they see on the Outdoor Channel to the real world.................
 
Re: "Cull deer"

All these management bucks you see on TV are just when the hunter MANAGED to shoot a buck smaller than they would like to get it all on tape /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
 
Scientific study published in QDMA mag showed genetics in free range deer can not be altered through culling. Shoot the deer you like, but don't call it culling.
 
NOT SURE IF SOMEONE ADDRESSED THIS ABOVE...
The MAIN REASON, in my opinion, to shoot a "cull deer" is NOT for changing genetics BUT so you open up room for another mature buck.
I consider cull buck to be a buck that is fully mature OR a deer that's 3 or 4 and will never get big. Yes, part of my theory involves genetics BUT not really so I am changing the genetics of the area.

BASICALLY, let's say I have a 135" deer on my land that's 6 years old. I want him GONE. He's ornary, mean, grumpy and will run off other bucks who might score 170. A piece of land can only hold a certain amount of old mean bucks. Bill Winke's article addresses this.

SO, my action is: I shoot every buck that's 5&1/2 and older- basically a deer that won't be any bigger and is at peak while leaving all deer 4 & 1/2 and younger to get older. I prefer leaving the 170" 4&1/2's so they turn into dominant buck and will likely get to 180"++++. Just remember, a piece of land can only support a small amount of old bucks, would you want that old buck to be the 135" 6&1/2 you passed up????? No way, KILL THAT SUCKER so hopefully a 180" will move in!!!!
 
Here's 2 examples of what I was talking about above. BOTH deer came into rattling to BEAT THE CRAP out of the bucks that were on "HIS" turf. Now the bully is dead! Kill the bully!!!! *Both deer were aged 6&1/2 to 7&1/2 years old!
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Re: "Cull deer"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Kill the bully!!!!</div></div>

I like that one. Free ranging deer may get little genetic benefit by removing the cull deer but letting a new bully to take over might pay off if he has that great rack we are after!
 
was the first one the bully? He looks like the dominate , hes got some mass!he was just coming in to take care of the bully.
 
Re: "Cull deer"

Now moving out the dominant buck so another can move in, I think that will work. You are doing a hard thing by trying to only kill the old deer, your plan is impressive. Wish our herd could get to the point that I could worry about genetics! Just trying to get the age better is hard enough.
 
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