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"Cull deer"

Great post so far!! this one belongs in the Mature Bucks forum i think! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

another misconception about "genetically inferrior" bucks is to shoot spikes.

in truth, a spike is a late born fawn that had to put much of its energy during his first year into maintaining and growing his body in order to stay alive. his first set of antlers "got the short end of the stick" and did not recieve any extra nutrition to develope as all "extra" protien was needed else where.

it is a known fact that a spike buck has the potential to become a B&C with quality genetics. I do however think that a spike buck has lesser genetics and will most likely never become a super monster, but could definatly become a very impressive animal in the future!

i agree that if you are managing your herd and are trying to avoid shooting up and comers and are shooting genetically inferrior MATURE bucks, you need to wait till they are at least 3.5 before pulling the trigger. 4.5 might be the absolute best age to make a decision without question.

i think this has been mentioned, but shooting enough does and maintaining an efficient buck to doe ratio will do your herd more good than shooting a "cull deer".

having said that, im all about shooting what makes you happy!! (obviously /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif ) but when the day comes and i have property that i can manage, you can rest assured i will be doing my best to help build and maintain a quality deer herd by shooting lots of does and letting bucks grow old!!

good stuff!!
/forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
 
There is a really good article on this subject in the newest issue of Bowhunting World magazine..

Interesting read for sure........I read it while I was pondering the mysteries of the universe before my feet fell asleep.. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
 
MOOSEHUNTER- If there was a way to tell which does will produce big racks you'd hear allot about "cull does". But there is no way to tell by looking at them so I would guess that's why you don't hear about it.
Another question why shoot the older mature does instead of the younger ones. (not yearlings) I know I've heard shoot the mature does cause they have twins or more. But wouldn't you want the old mature does doing the breading instead of the youger weaker ones? Kind of the survival of the fittess. If deer are born on a one to one bases wouldn't it make more sense to shoot the youger one and have a 50/50 chance of killing a young buck instead of shooting the older doe and knowing you're probably killing a buck also?
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MOOSEHUNTER- If there was a way to tell which does will produce big racks you'd hear allot about "cull does". But there is no way to tell by looking at them so I would guess that's why you don't hear about it.
Another question why shoot the older mature does instead of the younger ones. (not yearlings) I know I've heard shoot the mature does cause they have twins or more. But wouldn't you want the old mature does doing the breading instead of the youger weaker ones? Kind of the survival of the fittess. If deer are born on a one to one bases wouldn't it make more sense to shoot the youger one and have a 50/50 chance of killing a young buck instead of shooting the older doe and knowing you're probably killing a buck also?</div></div>

I actually saw a a study that showed that younger does produced bigger antlered deer than the older does. They could not find a reason why but they said test after test showed it.

That's why I shoot all the big mamas!
 
I shoot mature does for other reasons. I shoot them because they are old and crafty. I shoot them because the young ones have a whole life in front of them and the young ones will become old does someday as well. I also choose to shoot old does with no fawns (yes, even if they have button bucks I just don't).

I guess some of it is an unrationale emotional thing with me, I just can't kill a young and stupid little doe that is just learning- even the 1st few years they are learning. I'd rather kill that OLD doe that knows the ropes, has had a good life and doesn't appreciate how nice I've been in the past BECAUSE she seems so ornary and bossy with other deer- I guess it's my "Deer Disclipline" for my land.
 
This has been a pretty interesting read, alot of good posts.

I personally don't believe it's possible to do much to improve the genetic makeup of a wild deer hers, after all it is wild. Unless you're going to decifer a buck to be less than desirable as a yearling, you can can be sure he'sspread his genes already.

This affection for whitetails has brought us all to the same place and it's fun to see everyone's take and to learn a bit about their areas. I understand the terms "cull" and "management" to name a few,...I read. However some parts of the world, like mine, you play the hand mother nature deals. Pretty hard to worry about much when on an avg. yr you get one either sex tag, that's it.

I also consider that the does are carrying half the gene pool and it's pretty difficult to decipher which does are gentically inferior.

Just a ?....on avg., how much space does everyone feel a mature deer needs from other mature deer in order to be content?
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MOOSEHUNTER- If there was a way to tell which does will produce big racks you'd hear allot about "cull does". But there is no way to tell by looking at them so I would guess that's why you don't hear about it.
Another question why shoot the older mature does instead of the younger ones. (not yearlings) I know I've heard shoot the mature does cause they have twins or more. But wouldn't you want the old mature does doing the breading instead of the youger weaker ones? Kind of the survival of the fittess. If deer are born on a one to one bases wouldn't it make more sense to shoot the youger one and have a 50/50 chance of killing a young buck instead of shooting the older doe and knowing you're probably killing a buck also? </div></div>

Bowstring. I was only trying to point out that does appear to play a part in big buck genetics according to this guy in Ohio. At least in a captive herd. My guess is it would be the same in the wild. Who would know for sure if a mature (average) buck passed his genes onto a superior doe and that produced a great buck. I think that's a good question to ask.
 
I shoot every doe I can. I've seen 5 studies this way and five studies that way!

I shoot spikes. I take a beating for it, but I still shoot em! I can go one for days on why, but it really doesn't matter.

Truth is and has been said, take the deer your happy with. The two properties I hunt have both been slaughter over the years by hunters before me. They would shoot everything that moves durning gun seasons, yet each year there are good bucks there. Will controlling the gun harvest help or hurt? I'm yet to find out.

We are hunters, not Gods. Let the big man decide what they grow and then hope he walks them in front of you!
 
Re: "Cull deer"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was only trying to point out that does appear to play a part in big buck genetics according to this guy in Ohio. </div></div>

Heck yes they do, they give each offspring the same amount of genes as the buck. Not being a smarta$$, but we all realize that wild means wild. We can shoot whatever we want and we all know that what we harvest/kill has an overall affect on the "herd" in the areas we hunt. There isn't really a good way to change the genetics in the short run unless we have all the deer microchipped and we know what genetic lines both bucks and does came from. With the crap-shoot we call the "wild herd" that most of us hunt we can only manage based on what we see. Judging deer on potential age class instead of rack score is a good idea.

If you have two bucks that are 4.5 year olds and one has a great rack (160-ish) and the other is a short-tineds no mass dud...two things can happen. You can shoot the dud and let the big-guy live to try and spread more of his genes...or you can shoot the wall-hanger and leave the dud to spread more of his genes....knowing that the dud will be even more of a dominant buck next year with similar head-gear it will have the wrong management affect on the herd. For most of us, if given this scenario, it's hard to lay off the good buck.

BOWSTRING, you're right those guys are making excuses...their exclusive shotgunners so they're really just living out the same ground-shrinkage most bowhunters experience...I've made the same mistake with both weapons in the same season. I hope someday I will learn /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif as most of the right answers and knowledge are here on this site.

I agree with Thomas, this thread should find its way to the MATURE BUCKS forum.
 
Moosehunter- I agree does do play just as much of a role that bucks do. I didn't mean for that to come off as sounding bad toward you.

Turtl- We all shoot thing we don't intend. I shot a lil 5pt during shotgun. 150 yards and it was the only one that stopped at the fence before it jumped. I thought it was a doe. I also passed that one up during bow season.
If it wasn't so much fun hanging out with friends I wouldn't shotgun hunt.

Saskguy- Good question about the acres. I'm going to guess about 200-300 acres would hold a mature buck. Not saying other mature bucks won't be around just that one would call it home and other would travel through. Like I said this is only a guess would like to hear more opinions on it. I think there would be allot
of variables like hunting pressure or human pressence in general that would make a big difference on a piece of land.
 
Ok, once again I will say that I am not a trophy hunter so this isn't a burning issue with me, but I do have a couple of thoughts. I hate the term cull or management buck. This came originally from the big fenced Texas ranches, and in my opinion was a from of justification for the "Game managers or biologists to show that they were really trying to do something. If there were really any truth to this "genetics" hype, then the fenced operations, and especially the small operators, would have developed a race of giant deer with in their fences. They could control every aspect of breeding from selection of does to pairing with bucks. I will agree that there have been some monster deer bred on some of these deer farms, but I believe that they are about as much a freak of nature as some of those monsters in the wild population. Many of these operations have been pen raising bucks since the 1960's and really haven't figured it out yet.

Deer populations develop different traits more as a result of habitat, climate, food, and minerals. All you have to do is look at the differences in the general deer populations of different regions. Look at the general small body size of the deer in Texas or generally any where in the South. Then you have the larger bodied Midwest deer, and the bigger blocky deer of Alberta for example. Genetics do play a part in this, but the herd still developed in it's own way. I know for a fact that tons of Midwest game farm deer have been shipped to Texas to try to grow bigger deer. Some of this breeding program result in improvement in the deer, but only for a couple of generations, and then the deer trend back to where they were originally, and this is in a very controlled environment.

Our wild population of deer is just that, WILD, so they move from place to place. The bucks, and to a certain aspect does, displace resident deer and start new strains and family trees in different areas. I do agree that if we want to see and shoot big bucks, that we can't shoot all the small or yearling bucks. That's just common sense, but to think we can control that by removing a "cull buck" is not. If that cull buck is old enough for any one to tell that he is in fact inferior, then you can bet he has already spread his genetics all over the place. When you have a buck doe ratio that is 1 buck to 6, 8, or 10 does virtually every buck gets into the action, sometimes even the year and a half olds. An other thing to think about is where is this cull's Daddy. Odds are that the Daddy has already spread that undesirable gene all around , and that is where "cull" came from. Same goes for the doe. Did they both come from 10 miles away because some bad hunters chased them with trucks? The whole point if this is that , as much as we would like to, we simply can't control or even effect the genetics of our deer herd by killing off a few bucks that we see as undesirable. Also how many of the desirable bucks are killed each year by cars or other "predators", and how does that effect the genetics? Deer are not and should not be the same as a herd of Herefords and we should not try to manipulate them in the same manner we do cattle.
 
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