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Ethics:

Whether the state or legality.... Hmmm, ethical or not??? I guess I don't know. I think they are dangerous but that's your choice & possibly impacting some innocent folks. But, for most part, if you wanna take the risk, that's your choice. It's risky when I climb trees too even though I wear a harness & climbing rope.
I guess my sticking point is this.... SHOOTING AT RUNNING DEER. 1) You can't make good decisions on age & management with running deer (which yes, I think is important if biology & management is at all in your equation) 2) I don't care how good a shot you are, you're going to have super high wound rates. I don't have science behind this one but I've found piles and piles and piles of wounded deer after a drive, late winter or in the spring shed hunting. Ground that's driven bad - anywhere I've been in the state, it's a deer graveyard come post season. It's a shame & I've seen this on countless farms for years. 3) Button bucks are rarely identified, killed just like anything else. Most often the young dumb bucks that finally have nice racks get annihilated even though they are not mature. The mature ones most the time get past and the dandy 2-3 year olds get stacked up. 4) It's not uncommon for a group of 10-20 guys to take out 4-8 bucks, most 1-3 year olds of one farm & drive. That's my observation from countless drives and years. It destroys the mature buck potential which would have the biological backing that it isn't the smartest thing to do BUT most folks who would like mature bucks to hunt get hurt badly by these groups.
So really, unethical? I dunno. I just know "most groups" (in my opinion & experience) blow away a lot of young bucks, have no consideration for management, wound a lot of deer & don't realize what's being shot because deer are often running. But, the law is the law and if you like it and have permission, knock yourself out. It won't go on where I own land. Just cause something's legal doesn't make it smart, advisable or wise BUT to each their own on this one. Not on my land & thankfully my neighbors don't either so it isn't a deer graveyard like many farms in past that neighbors had a war on for 2 shotgun seasons. Good luck with whatever you do and decide though.
 
That,,,is a good post... I do all I can to encourage the deer to stay on my small piece of property for the shotgun season. No driving on it either.
 
I partake - this is 100% people's opinions and what you want out of your place. I go to properties I bow hunt that are not gun hunted what so ever. And I bow hunt places we push and post first season shotgun. I have lost way more deer to a bow and arrow than I have with a gun. Running or standing still- Only thing I can say is every single person in my deer camp bow hunt- and you may not be able to tell if the deer is 100% mature- but we can certainly tell wall hanger or not and large does. If it's not going on the wall- it isn't shot at. And we only shoot does out of stands which we sit every AM and PM No does on drives. And you're correct- terrible practice on deer management for Age and keeping mature bucks on your property- but to be frank- many deer camps could care less about that and all they are concerned with is filling their freezer to provide meals for their family for the year. And gun season is their only time. Not speaking for our group- just stating there are many hunters that fall into that category. Deer camp for our group is more about the comradery than it is about the hunt- since we all bow hunt. Again- each to their own and that's why it is a debate.
 
As a property owner deer drives on neighbors push deer into my farm, which is good!!

I just don't like the big groups---dangerous
 
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Bowtech84 said:
Most on here would not hesitate to take a shot at a running coyote but when it's a precious deer no way that is unethical!!! Why are deer put on this imaginary pedestal? They are all game animals? Why shoot at a flying pheasant? It would be much more ethical to drive around and shoot them off the ground out of road ditches but that's frowned upon and considered unethical. Why shoot at geese when they are making their descent? It would be much more ethical to wait for them to land and shoot them off the ground. Go back and read the "I hit a buck with my arrow but can't find it" threads then come preach ethics to me. On the safety side of things I'm sure everyone would be all for passing a law making it illegal to hunt from elevated platforms due to the number of accidents from falling each year? I have shotgun hunted over twenty years and know of one guy personally that got injured but not life threatening. I know of three guys that fell from tree stands. One passed away, one will never walk again and the other had a broken leg. If you don't believe in it then don't participate. Its really that easy. Good luck to those out there enjoying what the great state of iowa has to offer these next couple weekends. All hail "THE ORANGE ARMY"!! Be safe!
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took the words out of my mouth!
 
loneranger said:
Sorry now I stirred it up. Was not meant to slam D-drives.
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Ha, no hard feelings. This topic was bound to show up sometime this week. :) For me it's about the most exciting time of the year to be on this site! I think it's great when all the "deer managers" on here speak their side of the debate. I do agree that shotgun drives hurt farms that people are trying to manage but not everyone gets the same kick out of growing deer. When the bow is in my hand my goal is a mature deer but when I'm carrying the shotgun idc if it's a 2 year old or a 15 year old - if i decide to pull the trigger than I guess it was good enough. If I walk up to the critter and there's a little ground shrinkage what am I out? The chance at him next year? Bragging rights? Well there's plenty of bucks out there and I've never considered myself to be much of a bragger. I understand both sides of this debate but different strokes for different folks or something along those lines. No matter what season you master debaters decide to hunt, be safe and good luck!!! :)
 
A lot of guys don't care about management, I think we can all agree on that. The guys that don't care will ALWAYS be able to blast away. The guys that DO CARE about management & trying to get deer to maturity will always be hurt by the others though, nothing they can do about it except keep their land more desirable & pressure free or as somewhat of a sanctuary. So, who really is impacting who? The "Management Guys" are doing no harm, actual good to the deer driving groups that don't care while the deer driving groups are going against what the managers are doing. Just a fact, not trying to change it but that's just how it works. *If we really want to split hairs, I guess one could say the "Management guys" are taking away from Drivers/pushers by buying up land or leasing it to accomplish management. Thus taking away access from Drivers. I understand why and the Driving group obviously doesn't like this SO I see that point of view too. I see both sides even though I'm extremely opinionated and skewed toward management & biology. I get the other side and understand your perspective or the perspective of the everyday guy that wants to just out and "blast". I get it, don't agree but I respectfully understand. If we really wanted to drag it out- which we won't, I'd continue the conversation about WHY we all should care about management, biology, our herd, our neighbors, the herd we share across fences that's a public resource, managing for age classes & health, etc BUT I won't drag that out and to most on the "blast" side of things, it's deaf ears 99% anyways. I respect the other point of view and respect having fun hunting and totally agree there's danger in anything we enjoy in life.

In regards to a coyote or pheasant or duck & shooting at them moving.... I get that too. BUT - for those 3 categories brought up - that's pretty much the ONLY WAY to shoot them. I mean, sure, I guess folks could try and shoot ducks on a pond or find a way to shoot at a still coyote but that rarely, if ever, happens. On the other hand, it's extremely easy to shoot at a still deer. That's a deer's natural state when you see them 99% of the time - still, walking, feeding, etc. Ok - well at least when you're in the stand. And in the stand, no way to do I shoot at a running deer, shotgun, bow - anything, won't do it. If you choose to, I just disagree and think it's bad judgement & I've seen the consequences overwhelmingly. For guys who wound a deer with a bow.... Great point, yep, it happens. Thankfully it's somewhat of a rarity in that far less deer get arrows flung at them that shotgun slugs. One arrow, carefully placed at 15 yards by someone who is experienced and waits for the right shot, seldom does a wound happen but yes, it will happen and has happened to me. But, I'm batting maybe 90% in kill shots vs misses or wounds. A lot less bowhunters out there & they often only have 1 shot. Many wounds are due to poor decisions with a bow - the same category as what I consider shooting at a running deer with a gun, a poor decision. I see them both in the same category to be honest... For example, shooting a deer quartering to in shoulder area with bow- poor decision. Shooting a buck running at 15 mph - poor decision. that's just my OPINION from experience in BOTH cases with bow or gun. I do gun hunt & I don't think I've ever wounded a deer with a gun BUT I stopped shooting at running deer at 15 years old after thankfully missing a bunch. To each their own and I respect the other point of view, good debate and obviously one more joe schmo's opinion is expressed with some experience & reasoning behind it. Good luck coming up soon, stay safe
 
Southern Iowa deer drive actually means drive them with pickups and CBs ! Dare the Iowa DNR to even try to stop it what a joke the DNR is.
 
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A lot of good comments here, some guys do things differently than I would but I'm not gonna give them a hard time for doing something within the law. In the places I hunt, the shotgun hunters shoot almost anything and this really frustrates me. Even when the population was low they were still blasting away at does. But who can blame them, the state gave them tags and allows their practices so I'm not gonna knock em, even though I don't agree with them. It all comes down to if the group decides to manage their herd or shoot anything that moves.

I shotgun hunt simply because I don't have my own land to manage. By the time late muzzy season gets here the deer virtually disappear from my farms to places where the guys manage and have standing crops or food. By shotgun hunting at least I see deer and have a chance to pull the trigger on a shooter.

I'm not gonna say that deer drives aren't dangerous, but I still feel a lot safer hunting in Iowa with drives than I did opening day of rifle season in Missouri and drives aren't real common there. I remember sitting in the stand hearing bullets buzzing through the treetops and we had bullet holes in our garage after one season. My neighbors hunted with SKS's and extended clips so on opening day it sounded like WWIII.
 
My biggest frustration is the amount of trespassing that goes on. Too many times guys will push entire sections even though they only have permission on 40 acres. I know not every group does this but the area i hunt it seems to be the norm. I also disagree with the law that says you can tag your deer with someone else's tag. Never made sense to me.
 
My only gripe at first was the idea that deer drives were unethical. In my neck of the woods there is not anyone that I have seen or know of that chace down deer with trucks, but I don't doubt that it happens in some places and that need to be addressed. I have been deer hunting since about 1970 usually mostly in the form of small or short drives and have not had any issues with unsafe or illegal activities. Currently we will be on stand for the first and last couple of hours of the day. During the rest of the day we will make some small drives with only 4 or 5 of us. During these drives I can't remember shooting at very many running deer, unless it was a followup shot after a miss or maybe a poor hit. If set up correctly most drives will give shots at deer which are standing looking back or just slowly moving away from the drivers, and can be stopped with a grunt or whistle. I have killed a lot of deer this way over the years. The other thing that we need to understand is with out these drives most of the stand hunters would have very little to shoot at, because these drives get the deer up on their feet and moving much like the rut does for the bowhunters. With out some one or something to keep the deer moving, after the first shots of the morning these deer would hunker down in the same thick nasty brushy spots that the drivers push them from and most hunters would never see them at all, because they would just stay there and come out to feed after dark. Drives do move deer from farm to farm and break up family groups which I think actually helps the breeding and genitics in most areas so that next year that buck isn't breeding 3 generations of does that he sired. That just might have a great bearing on those bucks that are unkindly refered to as "cull bucks" or at least that is the way I see it.
 
The style of hunting is not indicative of whether the hunting is ethical or not. Its the people doing the hunting that determine the ethics.

Its like saying that eating fast food will make you fat. That's a blanket statement that is just not true. It depends on each individual and how much self control they have. Cheesy analogy but you get the point.

People who party hunt and do drives don't HAVE to shoot at running deer. Its a choice that each hunter has to make about the ethics of their shot selections. I've done many sits where I could have shot at running deer, but have chosen not to. Some hunters may have, so does that make sitting in a stand waiting for deer to work into a food source unethical? Nope.

Myself and friends I hunt with do many drives during late muzzleloader. I don't consider it one bit unethical mainly because we don't take running shots. Drives may hold somewhat of an unfair advantage, but I don't think that necessarily means its unethical.

In the end its up to each individual to determine what is ethical for them and hold themselves to that standard. In some sense, we could all be more ethical (practice more, not take any questionable shots, practice more, only shoot broadside shots, practice more, did I say practice more?). There's ALWAYS room for improvement.
 
This is a good topic, because it does come up annually.

I've done both - grew up driving deer in southern Iowa with a large group that did it right: no CB's, no trucks (other than for hauling out deer), no trespassing, and no poaching/shooting with illegal weapons. And it was safe - at least as safe as you can be with 15-20 people. Majority of deer shot were does, and all the meat was used/donated thru HUSH.

However, they started losing land, and due to a son's birth, I was forced to switch seasons. Found another group, but didn't really fit what I wanted, and I wasn't as comfortable hunting with them.

Since then, I've been stand hunting for shotgun season, and really enjoy it (mostly because I've not started bow hunting...YET). To me, it is just as fun sitting in the woods in a stand, as it was exciting to jump deer out of a ditch to get them moving. Maybe its because I'm older, I don't know, but I feel safer hunting with a small group. We still do some "drives" if you want to call them - mostly still hunting is a better way to describe it. Its more about the comraderie than anything else for me these days.

The main issue we have now, is that we have big groups that drive deer the "wrong" way (in my book) - with is both illegal and unethical. By "wrong" I mean: shooting/chasing with trucks, not tagging deer, and trespassing. They simply go wherever they want, and shoot whatever they want.

Which brings me to a question dealing with management: How do I pass on a 2.5 to 3 year old deer on ground that "everyone" hunts - knowing these guys will shoot it at a moments notice. Basically, what I'm getting at is the deer don't have a chance to grow, so why would I not shoot it? That's what my small group now ponders every year...what is our definition of a shooter?

Good luck everyone, no matter how you hunt, and please be safe!
 
BigOLBuck said:
Which brings me to a question dealing with management: How do I pass on a 2.5 to 3 year old deer on ground that "everyone" hunts - knowing these guys will shoot it at a moments notice. Basically, what I'm getting at is the deer don't have a chance to grow, so why would I not shoot it? That's what my small group now ponders every year...what is our definition of a shooter?
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If the only reason you shoot a young buck is because someone else might if you don't, that tells me its not really a deer you truly want to harvest. Why shoot a deer that doesn't make you happy or is not what you are really after? Especially if that deer COULD be what you are after in a couple years? I understand the concern of someone else shooting it, but here's what I do know. If you shoot it now, you won't really be happy with it anyway and I can guarantee it will never get any bigger. If you don't shoot it, you will at least be giving it a chance to make it another year. Yeah the other groups may get it, but they my not....
 
I have a serious question.. On deer drives how do you keep track of how many deer have been killed. You only have a limited amount of tags. It's not like pheasants or waterfowl that drop right away and easy to keep track of. You shoot a deer it runs away do you just say you missed and not go after it? You can't see every one through the trees how do you know how many the other guys have hit? If you shoot too many deer what do you do? Leave them? Go buy more tags to hide your mistake?
 
We always had enough tags it was never an issue. Especially when we bought doe tags for every county we hunted in. We never got close to filling them all.
 
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I don't ever remember a year when my group tagged out. Most in my group are very selective. There are usually around 10 of us. Last year the group filled 3 tags total, all of which were bucks. I've filled 3 any sex tags since I've been out of high school. The last one being 2011. I've never bought a doe tag and haven't killed a doe since my junior year of high school (13 years ago). It's the guys that chase them in pickups and shoot everything they see that give (shotgun/all) hunters a bad name but I know how I hunt and how my group hunts and I guess I could really care less what people think. I could get a late muzzy tag and probably fill it every year but Im ok with not tagging one every year and it would take away from my ice fishing time.
 
CurtisWalker said:
I have a serious question.. On deer drives how do you keep track of how many deer have been killed. You only have a limited amount of tags. It's not like pheasants or waterfowl that drop right away and easy to keep track of. You shoot a deer it runs away do you just say you missed and not go after it? You can't see every one through the trees how do you know how many the other guys have hit? If you shoot too many deer what do you do? Leave them? Go buy more tags to hide your mistake?
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Never an issue- 90%+ of the deer I have killed shotgun season have dropped at the shot or a few steps later. And our group fills MAYBE 1/2 the tags we purchase. Big maybe.
 
LYON said:
If the only reason you shoot a young buck is because someone else might if you don't, that tells me its not really a deer you truly want to harvest. Why shoot a deer that doesn't make you happy or is not what you are really after? Especially if that deer COULD be what you are after in a couple years? I understand the concern of someone else shooting it, but here's what I do know. If you shoot it now, you won't really be happy with it anyway and I can guarantee it will never get any bigger. If you don't shoot it, you will at least be giving it a chance to make it another year. Yeah the other groups may get it, but they my not....
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I'm not saying that's what we do...but it comes up in conversation. We talk about "what-if" situations, so to speak.

I prefer to let those "tweeners" walk and take a chance they'll not get shot by someone else - shoot a doe instead is my philosophy. But it always seems to come up: "why didn't you shoot that buck? you know the 'smith group' would shoot it." Makes a guy think twice on those borderline bucks.
 
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