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Ethics:

I have a serious question.. On deer drives how do you keep track of how many deer have been killed. You only have a limited amount of tags. It's not like pheasants or waterfowl that drop right away and easy to keep track of. You shoot a deer it runs away do you just say you missed and not go after it? You can't see every one through the trees how do you know how many the other guys have hit? If you shoot too many deer what do you do? Leave them? Go buy more tags to hide your mistake?
Pretty sure this happens a lot. Probably gets a little questionable if someone in the group is buying tags at 4:30 on the last day! Or those that didn't drop in sight get left/untracked if there are enough that did to fill the tags. I don't think there is really any legal way to keep track during the drive, unless everyone shoots their own and nothing else. Guess you could you flares or some kind of call to let others know you have one down, assuming everyone is within sight or hearing range!

I'm not saying that's what we do...but it comes up in conversation. We talk about "what-if" situations, so to speak.

I prefer to let those "tweeners" walk and take a chance they'll not get shot by someone else - shoot a doe instead is my philosophy. But it always seems to come up: "why didn't you shoot that buck? you know the 'smith group' would shoot it." Makes a guy think twice on those borderline bucks.
Shoot it if it makes you happy, don't if it doesn't. Doesn't matter what they would shoot, just what you want out of the hunt. Just my opinion, but I do get what you're saying and have thought about it many times too.
 
Drives do move deer from farm to farm and break up family groups which I think actually helps the breeding and genitics in most areas so that next year that buck isn't breeding 3 generations of does that he sired. That just might have a great bearing on those bucks that are unkindly refered to as "cull bucks" or at least that is the way I see it.

This doesn't really make sense. Deer that scatter don't permanently leave their home range and since most of the breeding is already done they will have months to regroup and return to their normal activity.
 
Might invest in Kleenex after reading this. Can't wait till Saturday. Love these 3 weeks of bow hunters praying that "their" buck doesn't get shot. Got my 4 LOT and ready to rock.
 
Might invest in Kleenex after reading this. Can't wait till Saturday. Love these 3 weeks of bow hunters praying that "their" buck doesn't get shot. Got my 4 LOT and ready to rock.

Good luck with the hunting man! Be sure to post the pics and stories if you so desire. I'll be on a two week hiatus and always enjoy seeing what people bring down during shotgun season.

Oh, and I'm a bow hunter but I don't have a deer. I have one that I want, but he's not mine until I put my tag around his antlers.

To be real honest though, you're kind of the type that gives shot gunners a bad rep (at least on this site). If you hunt legally, fantastic! However to come on a thread that isn't bashing shotgun season and is really just a thread voicing concern about ethics and herd management and give a sarcastic response like you do makes me, and likely everyone else, think that you are one of the shot gun hunters that doesn't give two craps about our herd. I hope you do care but that kind of response certainly doesn't show it. Why can't a shotgun hunter respond to a thread like this with real thoughts and give some decent feedback or criticism? Doesn't seem like it would be too hard.....
 
Not sure what I said that was making a bad name for shotgun hunters. I do find it funny how bow hunters sweat out the 3 weeks. I am a landowner and hunt only my property. I fill my 4 tags if I can and I go on with my day.
 
Deer Drives

Whether the state or legality.... Hmmm, ethical or not??? I guess I don't know. I think they are dangerous but that's your choice & possibly impacting some innocent folks. But, for most part, if you wanna take the risk, that's your choice. It's risky when I climb trees too even though I wear a harness & climbing rope.
I guess my sticking point is this.... SHOOTING AT RUNNING DEER. 1) You can't make good decisions on age & management with running deer (which yes, I think is important if biology & management is at all in your equation) 2) I don't care how good a shot you are, you're going to have super high wound rates. I don't have science behind this one but I've found piles and piles and piles of wounded deer after a drive, late winter or in the spring shed hunting. Ground that's driven bad - anywhere I've been in the state, it's a deer graveyard come post season. It's a shame & I've seen this on countless farms for years. 3) Button bucks are rarely identified, killed just like anything else. Most often the young dumb bucks that finally have nice racks get annihilated even though they are not mature. The mature ones most the time get past and the dandy 2-3 year olds get stacked up. 4) It's not uncommon for a group of 10-20 guys to take out 4-8 bucks, most 1-3 year olds of one farm & drive. That's my observation from countless drives and years. It destroys the mature buck potential which would have the biological backing that it isn't the smartest thing to do BUT most folks who would like mature bucks to hunt get hurt badly by these groups.
So really, unethical? I dunno. I just know "most groups" (in my opinion & experience) blow away a lot of young bucks, have no consideration for management, wound a lot of deer & don't realize what's being shot because deer are often running. But, the law is the law and if you like it and have permission, knock yourself out. It won't go on where I own land. Just cause something's legal doesn't make it smart, advisable or wise BUT to each their own on this one. Not on my land & thankfully my neighbors don't either so it isn't a deer graveyard like many farms in past that neighbors had a war on for 2 shotgun seasons. Good luck with whatever you do and decide though.

Pretty much nailed it Skip. Couldn't have said it better myself. I'll also add that the trespassing rate on some of our farms during the two gun seasons is simply ridiculous. Not saying everyone does it, but it only really happens during the gun seasons. The people who trespass have no regard for signs or the fact that they see our trucks parked in the gates watching. As Skip said, each to his own and if you have permission to hunt the ground knock yourself out. You won't find me doing it.
 
Most people have ethics that personally satisfy themselves. I am not saying I am not one of them.

I also think people have a tendency to exaggerate to make things seem worse than they are.
 
Can't complain about me ... I just shot my shotgun tonight and it's as ready as ever!! 3 out of 10 slugs hit the mark!! That's three dead deer in my eyes... Only kidding! You guys whine about this year in and year out...good for you if you don't like it or don't allow it on your ground... Wish our ground butted up to yours!!! But all kidding aside, if pushing deer is done properly the wounded deer scenarios drop substantially...its two or three idiots in your neck of the woods that ruin it for the rest of us! I've shot two slugs in three years while hunting... Two were at coyotes...to me it's about getting with my family and making memories! A trophy to you may be 160 inch deer or mature deer but to some it's not about that... Some folks are out to kill "wallhangers " and some are out to fill freezers! To each there own but you guys whining every year isn't going to make me or others in the "orange army" stop! Good luck to everyone hunting shotgun season and goodluck to the whiners at home on the couch praying that we don't kill any 3 year olds!!
 
Honestly, I don't think anyone is "whining." I do think that there are some in the shotgun-party-hunting groups that do it the wrong way. Glad to hear that your group does it the right way.

Good luck and be safe.
 
Good luck with the hunting man! Be sure to post the pics and stories if you so desire. I'll be on a two week hiatus and always enjoy seeing what people bring down during shotgun season.

Oh, and I'm a bow hunter but I don't have a deer. I have one that I want, but he's not mine until I put my tag around his antlers.

To be real honest though, you're kind of the type that gives shot gunners a bad rep (at least on this site). If you hunt legally, fantastic! However to come on a thread that isn't bashing shotgun season and is really just a thread voicing concern about ethics and herd management and give a sarcastic response like you do makes me, and likely everyone else, think that you are one of the shot gun hunters that doesn't give two craps about our herd. I hope you do care but that kind of response certainly doesn't show it. Why can't a shotgun hunter respond to a thread like this with real thoughts and give some decent feedback or criticism? Doesn't seem like it would be too hard.....
I think you're confusing herd management with quality deer management which isn't what the DNR is striving for. I don't agree with the part of no shotgun being bashed on this thread. When a person says all southern Iowa deer drives are done with pickups and cb's, they''re not complimenting the hunting style. I don't have a problem with drives and I think they're more ethical than states who allow baiting for deer. Yes we have people who aren't ethical deer hunters and they don't all use shotguns either.
 
I think you're confusing herd management with quality deer management which isn't what the DNR is striving for. I don't agree with the part of no shotgun being bashed on this thread. When a person says all southern Iowa deer drives are done with pickups and cb's, they''re not complimenting the hunting style. I don't have a problem with drives and I think they're more ethical than states who allow baiting for deer. Yes we have people who aren't ethical deer hunters and they don't all use shotguns either.

Agreed. I am talking about QDM, not just the herd in general. I also didn't see the post about the southern iowa comment. Get me on that one too! :D
 
I look forward to this one every year!

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I think you're confusing herd management with quality deer management which isn't what the DNR is striving for.

This might sound crazy to most but I actually disagree with that. I actually think the DNR is looking for quality deer herd management, older bucks, balanced buck to doe ratio, etc. It's tough to find & some thinking has to be done BUT, here's just a FEW examples why I disagree & believe even the DNR pushes a form on QDMA....
1) they put a $15k-18k fine on bucks scoring over a certain threshold that are taken illegally, putting a higher value on higher scoring deer. For example (don't know EXACT #'s) - a 185" you take illegally may cost you $18,000 while a 120" taken illegally may cost you $1,000. Something along those lines.
2) DNR puts out a news release each year about identifying button bucks and shed bucks and how to "avoid shooting them". Also their support of getting rid of shed buck season in Late January.
3) DNR hosts & supports a whole page & library they run that posts & tracks the "trophy bucks of Iowa".
4) State/DNR still give out Governor Tags to bring attention to the state- a trophy state is fundamentally the goal and what is done with program. The program goal & how you are judged if getting a tag is: how much exposure you bring to Iowa as a destination & attraction for hunting (big bucks).

Those are just 4 examples I personally feel go against the idea that the DNR has no care about QDMA, balanced deer herd, ratios, trophy bucks, old bucks, etc.
 
This might sound crazy to most but I actually disagree with that. I actually think the DNR is looking for quality deer herd management, older bucks, balanced buck to doe ratio, etc. It's tough to find & some thinking has to be done BUT, here's just a FEW examples why I disagree & believe even the DNR pushes a form on QDMA....
1) they put a $15k-18k fine on bucks scoring over a certain threshold that are taken illegally, putting a higher value on higher scoring deer. For example (don't know EXACT #'s) - a 185" you take illegally may cost you $18,000 while a 120" taken illegally may cost you $1,000. Something along those lines.
2) DNR puts out a news release each year about identifying button bucks and shed bucks and how to "avoid shooting them". Also their support of getting rid of shed buck season in Late January.
3) DNR hosts & supports a whole page & library they run that posts & tracks the "trophy bucks of Iowa".
4) State/DNR still give out Governor Tags to bring attention to the state- a trophy state is fundamentally the goal and what is done with program. The program goal & how you are judged if getting a tag is: how much exposure you bring to Iowa as a destination & attraction for hunting (big bucks).

Those are just 4 examples I personally feel go against the idea that the DNR has no care about QDMA, balanced deer herd, ratios, trophy bucks, old bucks, etc.
I would think if they're into QDM and managing the state as a trophy state, they would have an antler restriction? I think the higher fine for the bigger bucks is to discourage more poachers to consider risk versus reward since they get more money if you have a 185 rack versus a 120 rack. Yes they want you to hopefully use a doe tag on a doe and not a button buck because that's a tool to keep the herd in check and they're not worried about that button buck not growing up to be a P & Y buck. The deer numbers are down and that was the reason to open the late doe season was to reduce the numbers in those areas. Iowa doesn't need governor tags to advertise the fact they have big bucks, the local Iowa residents with TV shows prove that far more than some governor tags ever will. A healthy deer herd isn't about having trophy bucks.
 
I would think if they're into QDM and managing the state as a trophy state, they would have an antler restriction? I think the higher fine for the bigger bucks is to discourage more poachers to consider risk versus reward since they get more money if you have a 185 rack versus a 120 rack. Yes they want you to hopefully use a doe tag on a doe and not a button buck because that's a tool to keep the herd in check and they're not worried about that button buck not growing up to be a P & Y buck. The deer numbers are down and that was the reason to open the late doe season was to reduce the numbers in those areas. Iowa doesn't need governor tags to advertise the fact they have big bucks, the local Iowa residents with TV shows prove that far more than some governor tags ever will. A healthy deer herd isn't about having trophy bucks.

I think it's well beyond a proven fact, demonstrated by countless states.... The way to grow big or old deer is to move the gun season out of the rut- NOT ANTLERLESS RESTRICTIONS! Or a shorter gun season. I believe there's supporting documents I've read that show how much more effective moving gun season out or 1 buck rule or short gun season is vs the antler restrictions but I could be wrong. I for sure believe it's almost a non-debate though that most effective is moving gun season out of the rut - most have to agree with that? Really, I think we all, on here, can agree, antler restrictions are silly. Like 4 points to a side? Seriously, so the best 1.5 year olds get killed. Antler restrictions are for places so over-run with hunters killing off the vast # of 1.5 year olds, it's a last ditch effort to get some deer to 2.5. We don't need this in Iowa and we are not like MI, PA, NY, etc. Antler restrictions will do little to get bucks to mature ages, like 5.5. Not a topic we ever need to bring up in Iowa.

I 100% agree we don't need Gov tags - it's a JOKE. Ridiculous. Totally agree.

A healthy deer herd and trophy bucks go hand in hand, just does. If you raise a deer herd with proper age classes, not over carrying capacity but at healthy levels of deer - you will have enough mature bucks & of those, some or many of those will be trophies. So, a goal of healthy & balanced (age class, ratios, not over carrying capacity) might not be 100% or all about trophies but they absolutely go hand in hand or have a very strong relation at the least. On the flip side, find a place that's over-run and massive deer die off: few "trophies". Find a place that's not balanced for age, all young bucks shot: few trophies. Find a place with 10 to 1 ratio does to bucks, likely: few trophies. Huge relation to eachother. Health & balance creates the best environment to produce "trophies".
 
A lot of guys don't care about management, I think we can all agree on that. The guys that don't care will ALWAYS be able to blast away. The guys that DO CARE about management & trying to get deer to maturity will always be hurt by the others though, nothing they can do about it except keep their land more desirable & pressure free or as somewhat of a sanctuary. So, who really is impacting who? The "Management Guys" are doing no harm, actual good to the deer driving groups that don't care while the deer driving groups are going against what the managers are doing. Just a fact, not trying to change it but that's just how it works. *If we really want to split hairs, I guess one could say the "Management guys" are taking away from Drivers/pushers by buying up land or leasing it to accomplish management. Thus taking away access from Drivers. I understand why and the Driving group obviously doesn't like this SO I see that point of view too. I see both sides even though I'm extremely opinionated and skewed toward management & biology. I get the other side and understand your perspective or the perspective of the everyday guy that wants to just out and "blast". I get it, don't agree but I respectfully understand. If we really wanted to drag it out- which we won't, I'd continue the conversation about WHY we all should care about management, biology, our herd, our neighbors, the herd we share across fences that's a public resource, managing for age classes & health, etc BUT I won't drag that out and to most on the "blast" side of things, it's deaf ears 99% anyways. I respect the other point of view and respect having fun hunting and totally agree there's danger in anything we enjoy in life.

In regards to a coyote or pheasant or duck & shooting at them moving.... I get that too. BUT - for those 3 categories brought up - that's pretty much the ONLY WAY to shoot them. I mean, sure, I guess folks could try and shoot ducks on a pond or find a way to shoot at a still coyote but that rarely, if ever, happens. On the other hand, it's extremely easy to shoot at a still deer. That's a deer's natural state when you see them 99% of the time - still, walking, feeding, etc. Ok - well at least when you're in the stand. And in the stand, no way to do I shoot at a running deer, shotgun, bow - anything, won't do it. If you choose to, I just disagree and think it's bad judgement & I've seen the consequences overwhelmingly. For guys who wound a deer with a bow.... Great point, yep, it happens. Thankfully it's somewhat of a rarity in that far less deer get arrows flung at them that shotgun slugs. One arrow, carefully placed at 15 yards by someone who is experienced and waits for the right shot, seldom does a wound happen but yes, it will happen and has happened to me. But, I'm batting maybe 90% in kill shots vs misses or wounds. A lot less bowhunters out there & they often only have 1 shot. Many wounds are due to poor decisions with a bow - the same category as what I consider shooting at a running deer with a gun, a poor decision. I see them both in the same category to be honest... For example, shooting a deer quartering to in shoulder area with bow- poor decision. Shooting a buck running at 15 mph - poor decision. that's just my OPINION from experience in BOTH cases with bow or gun. I do gun hunt & I don't think I've ever wounded a deer with a gun BUT I stopped shooting at running deer at 15 years old after thankfully missing a bunch. To each their own and I respect the other point of view, good debate and obviously one more joe schmo's opinion is expressed with some experience & reasoning behind it. Good luck coming up soon, stay safe

I own ground and manage it during bow and when we group hunt it during shotgun. Only kids get to shoot at bucks we would not consider wallhangers and once they shot a buck they have to become selective too. Not everyone is hunting for wall hangers. Many groups hunt for the tradition, comradery and venison to name a few. I think its sad you think you are being "HURT" because of this style of hunting. You think you are being hurt because the "trophy" is at the top of your reason to be hunting, that is not the case for a lot of deer hunters and there is nothing wrong with that.

Not every buck has Boone and Crockett potential, in fact I'd say a large % of deer could be let grow to 5.5 or older and never reach 150"s.
 
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