Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory
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booneriverbucks
PMA Member
We actually asked a few wardens about that last year.. All of them basically said well you’re wearing orange and walking around with a group that is deer hunting.. good luck proving that.
booneriverbucks
PMA Member
I don’t! Short bursts are much better! My hands are getting cold while scrolling through the long ones!
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booneriverbucks
PMA Member
Another short burst.. Would be irrelevant if everyone was limited to two bucks no matter what.. I do totally think if you are going to party hunt during gun 1 or 2 you should most definitely have purchased an anysex tag. I know plenty of guys that have party hunted during the shotgun seasons for “does”.. or unless a really big one comes by (of course) with only a county wide doe tag and save their anysex tag for late muzzleloader. Have even seen some bash party hunting on here even though they thoroughly enjoyed shooting their biggest buck ever after only purchasing a doe tag.
The warden here said they are fair game to do it- orange is just a safety precaution. Crazy how different the state can be.
booneriverbucks
PMA Member
No kidding! We asked 3! Either way, I don’t like the thought of a bunch of guys hunting with their friends and family like they have been since before I was born to all of a sudden have to totally change their favorite week of the year all because some are upset with the current trophy potential they are experiencing. There’s got to be some way to make everything a little better without screwing that up.
I’ll make this one short and sweet for everyone….
State ……… Pop ……. Last 3 yr ave harvest
Kansas …….700,000 ………. 89,390
Ohio ………800,000 ……… 221,014
Indiana ……700,000 ………123,106
Iowa ……… 445,000 ……… 105,058
20 years ago
Iowa ……… 650,000 ……… 146,320
I ran with QDM state pops. Iowa is hard to come by and I still question the methods of spotlight survey. But the numbers tell the story. There are more bucks surviving the seasons in these other states so higher chance to show genetic potential and age. If we don’t fix (increase) the population get used to the hunting we have today which will continue to slip in quality because of the high grading, cell cams and other boogeyman stuff because those do have an impact albeit small…
Evidently the cell cams only work in Iowa on dumb Iowa giants (kidding). I think the cell cams are more of a moral argument than the cause of why our trophy quality has gone down.
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Skip, I get it. But when you really look at the changes for weapons based on the season not much has really changed. Many people swapped rifled shotguns (150 yard gun) for muzzleloaders (200 yard gun) in the late 1990’s, Then when straight walls (200 yard gun for most guys) were passed guys swapped their muzzleloader or if they still used a shotgun for a straight wall. Bows have advanced but like you mentioned maybe increased effective range from 25 yards to 40 yards. Our season haven’t changed since they added the late muzzleloader season around 40 years ago.
What has really changed over time is how guys hunt. Sit and wait vs deer drives or spot and stalk. Now the majority sit in stands or box blinds, many times over food plots, standing grain or a field edge. Deer are not usually moving when shots are being taken, they are feeding or slowly walking by the hunter and usually stopped by said hunter at the time of the shot. That has changed the effectiveness of hunters I feel more so than any specific weapons. Also, everyone has a range finder in their pocket so almost every shot is of known distance. Of course this leads to more ethical shots and effective kills. Which are good but also increases the individuals potential success rate. I remember in the 1980’s when I started bow hunting. I would step off 20 yards from the base of the tree my stand was in and place a marker like a stick or branch so in the heat of the moment I knew if the deer was in range. I remember having a 10, 15 and 20 yard pin. And if I sat for 2-3 hours and didn’t see anything, down the tree I went and I would sneak through that 100 acres of timber trying to spot a buck to stalk and hopefully get a shoot at. Dad and I were usually home by 11am to watch the Hawkeyes play (Chuck Long days). Then get back in a stand by 3pm and sit until close. No scent free laundry detergent. Hang clothes outside to dry and descent them or rub cedar branches on them. Cover scent was vanilla extract or red fox urine. Then later came the fall scent wafer from HS. Oh those were the days. Now guys sit in a stand or box blinds in November and December from an hour before daylight until pitch black. Sit in heated box blinds over a food source from noon until dark during late season. Guys actually just work way harder, invest way more time, and way more money into deer hunting than 20-30 years ago. At the same time they also have way more information on how to be successful now a days than anyone did 35 years ago.
But what is crazy is you would think it is easier for everyone to be successful and put big ones on the ground but our success rate and harvest numbers remain extremely consistent based on population looking back over the years even with all the changes in equipment. The real difference is the addition of high grading.
Guys are definitely more persistent with their pursuit of the big one and the amount of time they will commit which leads to high grading. But on the other side of the spectrum others are just trying to get one.
I have an young man that I know who has been bow hunting deer for probably five years that I am aware of and he just bagged his first bow buck after numerous close calls, a 2 1/2 year old ten, and he would have shot any decent racked buck that came by. Just so happens that it was a 10. He was pumped. Pretty cool to see him succeeded. Not everyone can go out a shoot one anytime, or a big one. But some guys want you to believe that anyone can.
It always comes down to personal choice and self control as far as management.
We are hurting as far as population is concerned. That is obvious. How do we fix that, quit shooting does. Get the additional doe quota reduced to a maximum of 500 for any county. Our trophy quality will also be fixed by increasing the population. The sooner we increase the population the sooner the top end bucks will improve in quality but more importantly quantity.
So dialing back, I think the party hunting is by far the most abused regulation we have. The one regulation that makes everyone feel uncomfortable with regards how it gets abused. Even guys who gun hunt that will only shoot their own deer don’t like the regulation. How many time have you seen or heard of guys using extra tags bought for people who are not even present or participating in the hunt. Like their wife, sister or kids. One guy in the party shooting several bucks. I think that regulation could be changed with some intelligent conversation with the right people at the capitol.
Rather than trying to change season structure, clean up late season to what it was initially intended, archery equipment and muzzleloaders. but exclude smokeless muzzleloaders and pistols. Dial those two things back. Closing party hunting will add thousands of bucks and does back onto the landscape. Cleaning up late season should add some additional deer back as well as slow the deer drives once the AR pistol loophole is closed. Hopefully, decreasing deer drives late season will help decrease additional stress. Most guys archery hunting or muzzleloader hunting are not doing deer drives.
What has really changed over time is how guys hunt. Sit and wait vs deer drives or spot and stalk. Now the majority sit in stands or box blinds, many times over food plots, standing grain or a field edge. Deer are not usually moving when shots are being taken, they are feeding or slowly walking by the hunter and usually stopped by said hunter at the time of the shot. That has changed the effectiveness of hunters I feel more so than any specific weapons. Also, everyone has a range finder in their pocket so almost every shot is of known distance. Of course this leads to more ethical shots and effective kills. Which are good but also increases the individuals potential success rate. I remember in the 1980’s when I started bow hunting. I would step off 20 yards from the base of the tree my stand was in and place a marker like a stick or branch so in the heat of the moment I knew if the deer was in range. I remember having a 10, 15 and 20 yard pin. And if I sat for 2-3 hours and didn’t see anything, down the tree I went and I would sneak through that 100 acres of timber trying to spot a buck to stalk and hopefully get a shoot at. Dad and I were usually home by 11am to watch the Hawkeyes play (Chuck Long days). Then get back in a stand by 3pm and sit until close. No scent free laundry detergent. Hang clothes outside to dry and descent them or rub cedar branches on them. Cover scent was vanilla extract or red fox urine. Then later came the fall scent wafer from HS. Oh those were the days. Now guys sit in a stand or box blinds in November and December from an hour before daylight until pitch black. Sit in heated box blinds over a food source from noon until dark during late season. Guys actually just work way harder, invest way more time, and way more money into deer hunting than 20-30 years ago. At the same time they also have way more information on how to be successful now a days than anyone did 35 years ago.
But what is crazy is you would think it is easier for everyone to be successful and put big ones on the ground but our success rate and harvest numbers remain extremely consistent based on population looking back over the years even with all the changes in equipment. The real difference is the addition of high grading.
Guys are definitely more persistent with their pursuit of the big one and the amount of time they will commit which leads to high grading. But on the other side of the spectrum others are just trying to get one.
I have an young man that I know who has been bow hunting deer for probably five years that I am aware of and he just bagged his first bow buck after numerous close calls, a 2 1/2 year old ten, and he would have shot any decent racked buck that came by. Just so happens that it was a 10. He was pumped. Pretty cool to see him succeeded. Not everyone can go out a shoot one anytime, or a big one. But some guys want you to believe that anyone can.
It always comes down to personal choice and self control as far as management.
We are hurting as far as population is concerned. That is obvious. How do we fix that, quit shooting does. Get the additional doe quota reduced to a maximum of 500 for any county. Our trophy quality will also be fixed by increasing the population. The sooner we increase the population the sooner the top end bucks will improve in quality but more importantly quantity.
So dialing back, I think the party hunting is by far the most abused regulation we have. The one regulation that makes everyone feel uncomfortable with regards how it gets abused. Even guys who gun hunt that will only shoot their own deer don’t like the regulation. How many time have you seen or heard of guys using extra tags bought for people who are not even present or participating in the hunt. Like their wife, sister or kids. One guy in the party shooting several bucks. I think that regulation could be changed with some intelligent conversation with the right people at the capitol.
Rather than trying to change season structure, clean up late season to what it was initially intended, archery equipment and muzzleloaders. but exclude smokeless muzzleloaders and pistols. Dial those two things back. Closing party hunting will add thousands of bucks and does back onto the landscape. Cleaning up late season should add some additional deer back as well as slow the deer drives once the AR pistol loophole is closed. Hopefully, decreasing deer drives late season will help decrease additional stress. Most guys archery hunting or muzzleloader hunting are not doing deer drives.
Iowa’s population estimates are questionable. I think they are probably over estimating a bit but it is all we can go by. One thing to remember is they are done before season. So you have to take 445,000 and subtract the 105,000 harvested. So you only have a total of 340,000 bucks and does left in the spring for replacement calculations.
KEEP IOWA GREAT! If I sat down with everyone of you & explained all the dynamics at play… I do believe we will do it & continue to improve in the next few years.
That’s pretty good for me on these types of posts - right?!?
booneriverbucks
PMA Member
The most important hunting stats of them all! Yes, this is two years old but you could say that only reinforces that major changes are not necessary to solve what could be temporary problems. Around 80% of hunters are happy with the overall hunting experience. Why on earth would anyone want to screw with that?? Small changes.. kill less does. No need to take the 20% side on an 80/20 issue. Regs are about the PEOPLE first. Not the deer.
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Very good stuff. Great data. Overall I like data like this & obviously it’s a source, guide or an influence on how decisions or changes are derived. The things to watch, add or consider with data like this…
1) data is 2023. 2024 was the most ehd we have ever had. The remaining deer got picked off at far too high of a rate as dnr could not address regs in time. They did adjust this year. My question- do we think that satisfaction rate is still 80%? Hypothetically, if that data even dropped to 70% in 1-2 years - that’s a critical trajectory of data change that needs reaction fast. Which- adjusting quotas like dnr did is a big start & fantastic they did it. We need to watch this data & make sure that doesn’t decline. I watched a state go from great to ruined in 5 years: Illinois. Point is- things can change super fast. Most of this data is positive & our dnr is the best in the Midwest.
2) in the weeds but most state data lacks input from the most seasoned & serious hunters. Which is no fault of dnr. I’ve seen some detail, demo & insight behind scenes of several states. Long story but “serious hunters” & long term hunters don’t fill these out. Which is our own fault. The only point from that I’ll make: using only data & academic approaches to wildlife management are not enough. U need bright minds who are serious hunters that are in the DNR. Like we have. We need a lot of dialogue with the serious hunters who do spend a ton of time out there or who have seen changes through the years. Those meetings & discussions with DNR, legislators & things like the town hall gatherings around state. Which we have improved in all those areas. So- this is generally a positive thing overall. What we are doing in all of above “need to get better” have happened & continue to grow. So- keep doing what we doing, keep growing as well- this is how we keep trends going up for positive data and all this truly are the fundamentals of how we Keep Iowa Great. Overall- I am more positive for the years ahead than negative. By a long shot.
1) data is 2023. 2024 was the most ehd we have ever had. The remaining deer got picked off at far too high of a rate as dnr could not address regs in time. They did adjust this year. My question- do we think that satisfaction rate is still 80%? Hypothetically, if that data even dropped to 70% in 1-2 years - that’s a critical trajectory of data change that needs reaction fast. Which- adjusting quotas like dnr did is a big start & fantastic they did it. We need to watch this data & make sure that doesn’t decline. I watched a state go from great to ruined in 5 years: Illinois. Point is- things can change super fast. Most of this data is positive & our dnr is the best in the Midwest.
2) in the weeds but most state data lacks input from the most seasoned & serious hunters. Which is no fault of dnr. I’ve seen some detail, demo & insight behind scenes of several states. Long story but “serious hunters” & long term hunters don’t fill these out. Which is our own fault. The only point from that I’ll make: using only data & academic approaches to wildlife management are not enough. U need bright minds who are serious hunters that are in the DNR. Like we have. We need a lot of dialogue with the serious hunters who do spend a ton of time out there or who have seen changes through the years. Those meetings & discussions with DNR, legislators & things like the town hall gatherings around state. Which we have improved in all those areas. So- this is generally a positive thing overall. What we are doing in all of above “need to get better” have happened & continue to grow. So- keep doing what we doing, keep growing as well- this is how we keep trends going up for positive data and all this truly are the fundamentals of how we Keep Iowa Great. Overall- I am more positive for the years ahead than negative. By a long shot.
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
From an outsider looking in , Iowa should be a one buck state . A second buck tag for a landowner with more than say (80 acres)…
Counties in the northern half, mostly agricultural counties should be 1 buck tag period. They don’t have the habitat to support 2 or 3 bucks being shot by one hunter ?
I’d also highly recommend ending all seasons on Dec 31 !!
Just my take ….
Counties in the northern half, mostly agricultural counties should be 1 buck tag period. They don’t have the habitat to support 2 or 3 bucks being shot by one hunter ?
I’d also highly recommend ending all seasons on Dec 31 !!
Just my take ….
Was discussing with skip and Curtis. Im curious on input from a broader audience
Topic: Thermal predator hunting
You can hunt year round with a thermal. You cannot hunt during deer season with Night Vision. I think the original intent was to eliminate guy out with rifles at night during deer season.
1. Its very clear to me that the technology (thermals) outpaced regulations.
2. More coyotes dead the better. Clearly.
3. If everyone followed the rules this wouldnt even be a discussion. I understand the "poachers gonna poach" argument.
4. We are losing deer to thermal poaching. Zero doubt about it.
So, should thermal hunting be allowed during deer season? If it was outlawed anyone out doing it would be "up to no good". Much easier to police and monitor. Right now you cant tell the good guys from the bad unless you catch them red handed in the act.
Thoughts?
Topic: Thermal predator hunting
You can hunt year round with a thermal. You cannot hunt during deer season with Night Vision. I think the original intent was to eliminate guy out with rifles at night during deer season.
1. Its very clear to me that the technology (thermals) outpaced regulations.
2. More coyotes dead the better. Clearly.
3. If everyone followed the rules this wouldnt even be a discussion. I understand the "poachers gonna poach" argument.
4. We are losing deer to thermal poaching. Zero doubt about it.
So, should thermal hunting be allowed during deer season? If it was outlawed anyone out doing it would be "up to no good". Much easier to police and monitor. Right now you cant tell the good guys from the bad unless you catch them red handed in the act.
Thoughts?
Hawk32
PMA Member
Everyone makes great arguements both ways. Its easy for me to agree with most all of you in some fashion but the for me the winning argument is Skips comment of "Death by 1000 cuts". It's not one particular thing alone that got us to our current situation and it's not one particular change that will solve our issues and stop the bleeding. We need to remedy the situation somehow someway even if that means the smallest of changes in our regulations. Slow the bleeding of just a couple of those 1000 cuts. Sacrificing a little could help a lot.
hillrunner
PMA Member
I'd like to see it. The new too me thing that scares me even more is thermal on a crossbow. You don't even need to hide your tracks because it will just look like any other legitimate bow kill with a broad head hole in it.
Imagine a bait pile with a cell cam telling you the big one shows up after dark. No problem with the thermal scope crossbow.
I know people that take hand held thermals hunting with them because it's easier to spot deer even in daylight using a thermal.
If I could wave a magic wand, all this thermal technology would go back in the box.
Biden had a 57% approval rating at one point so I never really take any polls seriously.
The most important hunting stats of them all! Yes, this is two years old but you could say that only reinforces that major changes are not necessary to solve what could be temporary problems. Around 80% of hunters are happy with the overall hunting experience. Why on earth would anyone want to screw with that?? Small changes.. kill less does. No need to take the 20% side on an 80/20 issue. Regs are about the PEOPLE first. Not the deer.
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booneriverbucks
PMA Member
Just to be clear, believe it or not, I actually hardly ever disagree with anything you believe on deer management. Obviously you’re as qualified as anyone to speak on the subject. My disagreements are purely about the management/wants of the hunters/citizens/taxpayers of this state. They all have a different opinion on what makes Iowa great and how to keep it that way. What the DNR,Law Enforcement and Legislature think is important will never come before the will of the citizens of this state. Last time I checked they all work for US!
Personally, I feel what makes Iowa great is that we are the last state to have a quality BOW season, free of crossbows for all and heavy non-res pressure and if we like gun hunting we have quality there too. Trophy potential is always subjective. I have never hunted in this state and not felt I did not have a chance at a mature deer (and typically a high scoring mature deer). They are there! Now, obviously I could be a bad hunter and definitely do not always get them but they are there. Every year bucks from 180-200+ are killed ON PUBLIC within a half hour of my house. Every resident in this state had access to those deer. It is nobody’s fault but my own that I didn’t get them.
I agree that the thoughts/opinions of serious hunters are important for everybody to hear. I also think the guy who spends more money on bush light than hunting equipment and takes his limited vacation during gun season to hunt with his friends and family has an opinion on things too.. really doesn’t matter if I agree with it or not. After all, he seems to enjoy the crap out of deer hunting while many are constantly complaining. Maybe I’m the idiot. Either way, there’s lots of opinions on what makes Iowa great. We absolutely need to realize that online forums,websites, social media pages, etc. become echo chambers and hardly ever measure the true opnions of everyone. If we want to make real changes we have to do better at truely understanding all hunters in the state regardless of what we think of them.
seven twenty
PMA Member
Acreage limit isn’t the way to handle it. Someone with 80 acres in the FR program would qualify and they don’t even pay taxes on it. Eliminate them completely if needed as depredation tags are available where warranted. 2 anysex tags, 1 bow and 1 firearm and nobody can cry that they’re being discriminated against. If you’re a horn hunter, shoot 2 bucks, if you’re a meat hunter, you have options.
This whole debate is about horns yet the majority are meat hunters. If bucks were just a different color, we wouldn’t even be having it.
100% agree that the late season should be the first to go. That would also address the shed buck concerns and help the population. 65% of counties having antlerless quotas doesn’t help.
Quote fm Iowaqdm:
Just because a county has extra doe tags allocated doesn’t mean they have a surplus of does. In any county there are pockets of management or controlled hunting that will have good populations.
This is exactly what I see locally. If we could get the state to take that into consideration when they set their quotas, it would also improve a lot of things. It’s almost as if the route surveys are only along those areas. Taking disease into account would also help. I see less than 1/4 the deer I did 5 yrs ago and it’s not for lack of habitat.
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Went thermal hunting for the first time the other night, eye opening. This is a poachers best friend, law enforcement cant do anything about guys driving around with loaded rifles with thermals and suppressors on them. Get pulled over and just gotta say you’re going coyote hunting. My opinion is it needs to be shut down during deer season. It’s a lot of fun but no doubt guys are poaching with them.