Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory
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iowavf
Well-Known Member
You make a good point. Even 10, 15 years ago when the numbers were high, not everyone shot a mature buck. Not every person buys a tag with the goal to shoot a big mature buck. The ones who deer hunt only to shoot a big mature buck, seem to be the ones shouting the loudest because they're not seeing as many big bucks as they used to.
I do agree we have a big decrease in deer numbers, and I think EHD and excessive doe harvest are the main culprits. EHD killed way more mature deer than I think the DNR allowed for. I'm good with only getting one buck tag and LO still being able to get one. Landowners are the main reason I'm able to deer hunt.
I do agree we have a big decrease in deer numbers, and I think EHD and excessive doe harvest are the main culprits. EHD killed way more mature deer than I think the DNR allowed for. I'm good with only getting one buck tag and LO still being able to get one. Landowners are the main reason I'm able to deer hunt.
booneriverbucks
PMA Member
I understand! I should have specified! I My arguement is with the clueless internet crowd who is chasing fantasy land. I was supporting another person on here who also understands basic math! Thank you! The arguments have to be refined and based on facts/data to combat what we are up against!! It’s bad out there and there is a huge lack of reality floating around.
seven twenty
PMA Member
Iowa made it to greatness while issuing multiple antlered only and gradually progressing to anysex tags. The downfall has come from the issuing of way too many “antlerless” tags combined with an epidemic or two. Throw in some modern technology and we end up in the situation we have now. One could also argue that the “HUSH” program was/is a contributing factor to the population decline also. Being able to shoot as many as you want and not having to do anything but drop them off at the locker is pretty easy.
Let’s eliminate the extra antlerless tags and go from there. The majority of hunters want meat in the freezer, not wall art.
If someone can post up some apple to apples comparisons with those states, let’s see them. I don’t think there are many because of the already differing regulations, populations, hunting practices, etc… Book entries mean nothing when trying to make a comparison. It’s probably fair to say that less than 50% of book eligible deer are entered from Iowa anyway.
When we say “one” buck, are we saying one deer only? That’s going to be a tough one to sell.
MN Slick
PMA Member
Minnesota is a 1 buck state.......and is garbage.
This thread is about GIANT bucks, not just big or mature as stated in some posts. Only 3 in 10 bucks have what it takes to become a giant. The deer density has to be high enough to overcome the pressure on the high potential bucks.
This thread is about GIANT bucks, not just big or mature as stated in some posts. Only 3 in 10 bucks have what it takes to become a giant. The deer density has to be high enough to overcome the pressure on the high potential bucks.
Thank you!! Funny how nobody wants to talk about the times one buck didn’t work out. It’s the fact that any hunter can hunt every single season til he’s done that has a lot to do with it.
abell3
Well-Known Member
Disagree. unless our definitions of mature deer are different from each other. It's never been easier to kill a mature buck with today's technology. What do you consider mature?
My first post-Cherry pop…
I’m not sure what part of MN you are in…I’m in SE MN-the best area and habitat in the state-and it’s not a one buck state-it’s 3….for the last several years you can take a buck with archery, a buck with shotgun and a buck with muzzleloader…all hunting on your own tags… do not need to party hunt to do so…we also have a 3 day cwd hunt in late December where any tag you have available is valid for any deer-buck or doe…it’s like the wild, wild west then…you are definitely right about MN being garbage…I have owned land for 30 years and would say the best buck hunting we had was back when this area was a one buck state… guys had to be selective about which buck to take… now, with so many tags and so much “hunter opportunity” as I call it, people shoot one first to “get their buck”, and then maybe hold out for a bigger one…. It has definitely taken the quality way down
abell3
Well-Known Member
The one buck tag regulation has become more louder within the last six months. It's very important that if this does happen Iowa doesn't make it a floating tag. If you only get one buck tag, you only get to pick one season you want to hunt a buck in. The tag shouldn't float. If it floats then were not doing anything. I'm also not so sure 1 buck state fixes our issues. It may help be a step in right direction if the law is written correctly. Getting our population up will help. Many like myself, are seeing the population decrease and have stopped shooting does for a few years now.
hillrunner
PMA Member
I agree, being able to hunt the whole season, including early muzzy would be a step in the wrong direction imo.
It's what we have right now with landowner tags and it's a huge advantage.
I can assure you that is NOT the case. I just like decisions to be made off of merit and facts/numbers rather than feelings. This thread was not started on merely how to increase age structure but how to improve the number of mature/trophy deer. I think those of us who are looking at more than one number see correlation between Indianas improving trophy entry numbers with more factors than just going to one buck state. I AGREE that going to one buck will improve age structure. BUT I have clearly stated that while a some may notice an improvement overall Iowa will not turn out the same trophy numbers as we once did at current population levels. Pretty easy math. 1/3+ less deer there just simply aren’t as many bucks surviving at that herd size to crank out the old trophy numbers. Will one buck improve age structure, I’d say yes. Will it noticeably and decisively be clear to everyone nope. I hunt some pretty marginal and fringe stuff and one buck not gonna help my area or get back to cranking out the trophy’s it once did 15-25 years. Simple odds.
Windlooker
Well-Known Member
Pennsylvania is a one buck state, always has been, and is garbage. This thread is great but does anyone know an Iowa wildlife biologist to bounce this off of. 35 pages of opinions with no true expertise adding to the discussion. Anyone know someone who works for the DNR?
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
Minnesota is not a true 1 buck state . They allow party hunting with all weapons. You can shoot multiple bucks. I know a guy that shot 5 in one year ?
If Minnesota changed to one buck it would be a big upgrade. The biggest potential improvement would be to move the gun season back !
I have never hunted Kansas or Indiana. Why would I? I guess I have always thought why travel to hunt whitetails or buy land in another State when I am fortunate enough to have the opportunity to own and hunt in my home State of Iowa. The most highly coveted tag in the country and I have access to three buck tags and doe tags if needed to manage my property. Why would I ever need to leave Iowa to hunt whitetails? Better question would be…Why would I want to sit in a tree in Kansas or Indiana in November when I could be in Iowa on my own farm? Could I buy a farm in Kansas or Indiana? Probably, why don’t I? Because I think about the kid who lives in those States that loves to deer hunt that dreams about owning his own deer hunting place. Just like I did when I was a kid. How does that help him when me or a thousand other NR come in and buy everything up and price him out and then tell him good luck finding a piece to own, or even hunt on in his own State? Or tell him he has to eat ramen the first half of his life every meal and never drive a decent vehicle, then maybe just maybe he could buy a 40 or an 80 if he is lucky.
I guess I’d rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. I have spent too much time over the last two decades trying to protect what Iowa has to turn around and throw in the towel or buy in other States. How many times has someone on IW (myself included) said fix your own State don’t come here and buy. Then follow that up with…if you do buy here don’t complain and then try to change our rules. It would be hypocritical for me to buy in other States because for years I have been opposed to increased NR tags, increased NR land ownership and NR landowners being guaranteed tags. I have always fought to help insulate the next generation of Iowa residents from loosing more acres to NR ownership. So kids who live here might have a chance to own their own slice of heaven just like I have been able to do.
I guess I could go hunt public in Kansas or Indiana but then I would competing with some local that likely doesn’t have somewhere else to go or more NR.
I guess a guy who lives in Iowa and feels the need to buy in surrounding States when they have three buck tags available to them here have way more antler lust than I do, or they are doing it to make money by driving prices higher on the next generation which is even worse in my opinion.
I would tell Iowa landowners that feel the need buy in other States and crisscross the midwest trying to punch tags and rack up inches of antler annually that you can probably quit chasing notoriety because nobody over the age of 25 really cares anymore. At least no one over the age of 25 that knows anything. So get over yourself because you’re only impressing naïve kids who don’t know any better.
I know I quit caring about what other people shot 20 years ago. Because even back then with enough money you could buy inches of antler by locking up acres, either buying it or leasing it. Killing big deer annually has more to do with the size of your pocket book than your hunting ability.
So my opinions which I present come from 40+ years of bowhunting whitetails, 30+ years gun hunting whitetails, 20+ years of managing my own land, 20+ years of contacting legislators and political groups fighting to protect Iowa’s resources, thousands of hours studying, listening and learning about whitetail management including habitat management, deer studies, deer behavior and herd management. But more importantly, my opinions are based on science, research, experience, common sense and the ability to recognize BS when the numbers don’t add up or when I am trying to be sold something.
I assure you and everyone on this site. If I believed for one minute that a one buck limit would improve the quality of hunting for all of Iowa’s deer hunters and would increase our top end potential I would be in favor of it. I don’t believe for one second that it will. It will lead to intensified high grading and less top end bucks and more 130” 5 year old eight points. (If that is your idea of improving age structure and improving Iowa) then I am not in support of it. How can I come to that conclusion? Common sense from looking at and studying the numbers. Also, because we can look at the 20,000 acre Amana Colonies one buck limit for the last 20+ years to back my position. It is basically a case study done right here in Iowa, not in Indiana, not in Kansas, right here in Iowa. What was their conclusion after 20+ years? Their one buck limit led to even greater high grading (due to nobody wanting to waste their only buck tag on a cull buck) and decreased the number of top end bucks inside that 20,000 acres even more so than what was present just outside of it. Their solution, they went back to Iowa’s current tag system to encourage culling.
You don’t have to believe me. Call Jase Elliott, the DNR Deer Biologist, he is a great guy to discuss deer herd management with, he has told me straight up that going to a one buck limit won’t improve the number of top end bucks. He has also made the comment to me that he doesn’t know why people would think that it would. He confirmed what I have been saying, we don’t harvest enough second or third bucks to even make a difference. He also agreed that getting the population up is the answer to improving the hunting for everyone including guys looking for top end bucks. He also feels it is important for the future of deer hunting in Iowa that bowhunters have to opportunity to also gun hunt. Likewise, he feels it is important that gun hunters also have the opportunity to bow hunt. He did say that they will be decreasing doe quotas even more for next year. They are on top of it. Let them manage the herd. This will take 3-5 years to recover. Have some patience.
I have presented the numbers for Iowa, then Indiana and now Kansas. I have broke the numbers down and tried to make the case for the importance of having more does on the landscape to improve buck quantity and quality.
We had our best hunting when we had similar deer populations as what Indiana and Kansas currently have now. That is not a coincidence. We didn’t have a one buck limit then and we sure don’t need it implemented now. We need more does on our landscape. As myself and many others have said, It has to do with producing significantly more bucks than what are being harvested so that you’re constantly back filling and stacking up your buck population. That is what allows more bucks to reach the next age class and ultimately age 4,5,6.
As booneriverbucks indicated, those with basic math skills and an understanding of deer herd management can figure this out very quickly.
We can’t take things (buck tags, cell cams, weapons, etc,) away from people or manage our deer herd based on “feelings” or “I think” this will make a difference. We have to manage our herd based on science.
Jase and I were discussing top end potential bucks during one conversation and I mentioned to him I always felt maybe 1 out of 10 bucks had the potential to reach 180” plus. I asked what he thought? His response was “if that”. Let that sink in.
The guys you watch on youtube who are killing 180-200”+ bucks regularly, most are doing that on literally thousands of acres of controlled land with unlimited food and almost zero hunting pressure.
As booneriverbucks said…Guys lower your expectations.
MN Slick
PMA Member
Good point about SEMN being 3 bucks. That said, it is still the best area in the state for giant bucks because the population is strong enough to overcome the pressure on them. .
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MN Slick
PMA Member
True a guy can shoot multiple bucks, but a hunting party of 5 can still only tag 5 bucks. Yes, some guys are cheating and filling granny Myrtle's tag, but the impact is minimal.
abell3
Well-Known Member
Wow. Lower my expectations???? You can't tell someone to lower their expectations. Why should Iowa lower their ceiling? I work in work high volume sales every day and your exact attitude is the type I try to fix or get rid of. This comes from a calm guy just drinking his morning coffee. So I hope this conversation can stay that way. But this exact attitude is what is hurting the sport. "Well I don't have anything good this year might as well shoot the biggest deer I have" "I gotta shoot a buck".. Get out of here with that crap. Most of people on here like myself that want to make hunting harder again have gone several years without filling a buck tag. Guess what? We didn't lower our expatiations.. If there wasn't a buck old enough we didn't shoot one. Just being the adult in the room.
Now as far as Jase and your conversation about bucks that have potential to get to 180s. Him saying even less that 1 out of 10. I disagree agree with. You have got to remember IowaQDM where he comes from. He's a disciple from the Auburn Deer lab. Where he got his education. He is still learning Iowa's genetics and how vastly different they are than the south. Jase is doing amazing things for Iowa and I can't wait to see where he takes it. He's great for our state. We all must continue to learn about the science and conservation of whitetails. Where my farms are located, if you give the bucks age, the percentage of them that can get to 180 is higher than 1/10. The problem like most areas is getting them to the age is the single hardest thing to do. Ever. Now throw in technology... It isn't happening.
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
The biggest problem is they keep hunting. In this case with the 5 bucks, he was using tags of his wife, & who knows. They weren’t even hunting. So he took 5 bucks for 3 legit hunters ?
I know my local warden has cracked down on that now.
It would be a simple decision for Minnesota. I’d even be fine with party hunting only during gun season (no muzzy, archery) ! So then if a hunter shoots a buck during bow they are done, or if they get one during gun, they can’t Muzzy hunt .
No exaggeration there are guys in their blinds from Nov to mid December almost every day !
So on your farm what is the percentage of bucks that have what it takes genetically to be 180” plus by maturity? What age do they have to get to to make 180”?
Daver
PMA Member
Just an anecdote...I have looked at 2 separate farms in the past 60 days or so and both are in historically strong areas and one had zero current year buck pics to show off and the other one had one "shooter" from this year. YIKES!
Should have been at least 4 or 5 to look at IMO.
Should have been at least 4 or 5 to look at IMO.