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Changing opinions on the amount of does to shoot…

Sligh1

Sligh1

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Sometimes I do feel like I live in a bubble or don’t check back with changing tides on many issues. Seems like there’s a growing chatter or pendulum that’s swung to where folks are shooting less does. I see areas of the state void of deer or any huntable amount of deer- especially above I-80.
I hunt in a variety of areas but all of them I’d call “medium to a few higher density areas” & shooting does is common. Even in those areas…. I’ve seen pockets that change by only maybe 5-ish miles…. get way over-killed… like “way too many got shot off this section & very few deer left”.

Admittedly, several years ago we shot too many off one farm. There’s zero doubt in my mind I had many bucks kill eachother over it. Amount of locked up bucks we found dead was pretty crazy. Busted up, gouged eye balls, gored bucks, rutted to death- u name it. I crossed a line that was a mistake. It recovered of course when we eased up. Seen the pendulum swing heavily both ways in a matter of 5 years in many regions of country.
If I am listening carefully & getting out of my bubble…. Seems like majority of areas - hunters feel like it’s gone “too far”. Fair assessment? Clearly we have areas void of deer all the way to pockets of crazy high numbers …. But overall - maybe the doe killing gone too far & guys dialing back???
Dnr or gov can also shower areas with doe tags but some pockets have Landowners that simply won’t use them no matter what. Those pockets- gov isn’t going to fix that with throwing more tags & quotas out.

I personally think the “pass the young buck and shoot A DOE” has made the Midwest reach its potential & done huge things for management. Where it’s came off the rails is maybe “pass the young buck & shoot 3-10 does” which probably has occurred more in last 10 years or so & has some guys struggling. Has to be a middle ground. What happened in northern 2/3rd’s of iowa is staggering…. Lot of areas void of deer. The pendulum sure can swing fast & hard in both directions.

What’s current thoughts & current dynamics in your area? I need to get out of my little bubble & hear more about other regions. Any current thoughts on what’s gone on in last 10+ years and current situation … go!….
 
It is so sporadic in my area just south of 80. There are pockets where no hunting is allowed and deer population crazy and then the sections all around it are basically void year round. Farmers all complain there are too many but it is down a lot from 10 years ago as a whole in the county especially age class.
 
Although I live about 80 miles away from my farm, I am on it frequently throughout the year. On our place and in the immediate vicinity deer numbers are still high...despite us, and some other neighbors, shooting multiple does per year. However, due to prime habitat, lots of food plots and management, etc, and not all neighbors are shooting very many does...they just keep coming seemingly.

But where I definitely notice the lower #'s overall is on the drive to and from my farm. In short...it is spotty and the differences from one area to another can be stark.
 
I’m up north- way up here. Not many deer. My plots bring every deer for 4-5 miles once snow falls and I know that, so I don’t think we have an over abundance. Most people see those late groups and panic there are to many.
Guys hammered does because they wanted to pound their chest and say they killed 10 deer a year. One group of 17 guys will shoot at least 50 every year during shotgun, and donate all but 10 (that is not an exaggeration either). My opinion in low density deer areas, HUSH needs to be derailed or somehow change incentives for that.
LOT tags need to be excluded from party hunting because the same group as mentioned, all get tags and use them not necessarily on their ground (I know a ton of people who have traveled with a LOT tag and shouldn’t)

Up in this area- I’d love to see the county gets “x” doe tags, you have to draw for them. If you’re in a county with no tags being given out- they sure as heck better not be handing out depredation tags.
Late doe season should be done- that’s another “shot my doe at 400 yards then took it for HUSH”.
I do what I can with what I have- if we need the meat, I might shoot an extra doe or two but haven’t gone crazy. We raise beef, pork, and chicken- so I really never “need” more than 2-3 deer for jerky/sticks/etc.
 
I jumped on the bandwagon when the DNR asked for people to thin the herd. I shot lots of does, had friends out to help. A wave of EHD came through one property and the herd is very slow to rebound. Haven't shot a doe in many years and don't see shooting many (if any) in my future.

My car insurance company tried to raise my rates this month. After all that help I gave them limiting their exposure to car/deer accident liabilities? They WERE my insurance company, as I found a much cheaper provider.
 
Outside of the past couple years in the urban program I've only every shot a couple of does. I've never hunted in an area that felt justifiable to just shot a bunch of does. I do know people that shoot does mainly just because they want to shoot deer and because its sort of been the the thing to do and promoted by tv people, youtube people etc to 'help the herd' etc just to donate them to hush. I agree with newfarmer that the hush program needs changed in some way. I dont watch hunting shows much at all anymore for several years, but i remember watching like the bonecollector guys or other tv hunters coming to iowa and talking about how when a NR draws a tag they get a doe tag too and they are "doing their part" when they shot a doe like it was some noble deed and I've seen the same speech little from random youtubers and how they are helping the state when they get their doe and half of them are hunting public ground where really probalby dont need any does shot.

Its interesting how you can drive around and see area that really dont have much cover, but seem to have a lot of deer, and other areas that look the same, but hardly any.

As for me, if I dont plan to eat it Im not going to shoot it. I like seeing deer and lots of them, I dont want to be shooting does just to shoot them. I went with a shotgun group last fall and it was pretty cool how we decided once we had enough deer that people wanted to keep we were done. Even though we had more tags we discussed going back out and donating to hush, but we all decided to call it and not just be filling tags and keep the numbers good for next year.
 
I would say we have just a few too many deer….it’s tough to grow food plots. Between Brad (Hillrunner) & I we shoot enough to help. He gets more than I .

I guess I don’t have cameras out right now, so not sure how the fawns survived?

EHD a few years ago killed off some.
 
Interesting that you think hunters’ general opinion is starting to change a bit Skip. I’ve shared my opinion on this topic many times on here and so I really, really hope you are right about that. Personally I’ve not gotten a sense that the pendulum has started to swing back but again I hope that you’re right and that it is.
I was just reading this week an article in either NDA’s weekly email or maybe it was Whitetail institutes print magazine can’t remember but “killing more does” was one of the bullet points in a management type article. I’ve said many times that the next article in a major publication suggesting a reduction in doe harvest will be the first. You just don’t see it. Same with the “t.v. hunters”. You won’t hear any of them saying that the herd has been reduced significantly in the majority of the Midwest and therefore they’re reducing or eliminating their doe harvest. Just the opposite.

So I’ve kinda felt that until those two things change a bit, all the general hunting industry & hunters hear are that they need to kill more does to make their hunting better. Drives me crazy.
 
IMO- last 10 years - quality & age structure has gone down in iowa. IMO- across the country - the peak for quality was around the 2000-2012 time frame. Ballpark. I really do think the “pass a young buck & shoot a doe” mindset that finally changed with hunters is why this period was THE BEST NATIONWIDE in history. So many guys started passing young bucks & filling tags with does instead- it ignited the fire for better age class of bucks. Nationwide, it probably went over the bell curve to a “decline in buck quality & amount of bucks” in 2012-ish…. Ehd hit across iowa & Midwest & guys were still on this path of shooting more & more does. This was around the same time our Politicians put in the genius plan of Late Shed Buck season!!!…. Rifles to February!!!! Remember that beauty of a decision?!?!? Remember the results?!?! What a Frigin disaster. IMO - since that season happened - that was the end of the peak for Iowas quality. That’s when it went downhill & why guys say “iowa isn’t as good as 10 years ago”. It all boils down to too many deer being killed in those years. I would argue the crazy high deer # pockets had little change. SE iowa is probably #1 on that list. Big landowners that won’t allow this to go on. The heavily hunted areas got pounded more than needed. Threw the balance off & we never fully recovered. That’s state wide average & why we have been in decline overall IMO. Guys in high density areas probably never noticed much difference in quality. Guys in “mid range” quality saw their hunting degraded substantially. We need a better balance for sure & the emphasis should be improving the areas that were devastated or degraded badly to start…. Pass a young buck, shoot a doe- great!! In areas where it’s not overloaded or near carrying capacity…. I personally think we need to dial it back…. Multiple Guys shooting 2, 5, 10 does - can really hurt a large area in most of the state that’s not vast areas of massive cover.
 
Quality and quantity is the best it's ever been for my area.

A neighbor and myself shot 20 does a year for a few years off 400 acres. We were trying to drop the #'s and it didn't change daily sightings the years following.

The neighborhood has always been good, but it's even better now with more selective hunters not over-harvesting does or young bucks.

Looking forward to seeing this young'n this year...

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letemgrow said:
Quality and quantity is the best it's ever been for my area.

A neighbor and myself shot 20 does a year for a few years off 400 acres. We were trying to drop the #'s and it didn't change daily sightings the years following.

The neighborhood has always been good, but it's even better now with more selective hunters not over-harvesting does or young bucks.

Looking forward to seeing this young'n this year...

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Imo, and as skip has alluded to I think, there are “pockets” like what you have. They do exist no question. However those types of farms, pockets, areas are without a doubt the exception. They might represent 10% of all the land in the Midwest.
So that said, in my post above regarding articles and messaging from the hunting industry at large, the message should be that 90% of landowners/hunters should probably be reducing or eliminating doe harvest. Or put another way 9 out of 10 articles you read online, in print, coming from the mouth of tv personalities etc….should be suggesting a reexamination of doe harvest strategies. The problem is is that it’s the exact inverse of that. 100% of articles and messaging all say the same thing…..kill more does. It’s like it’s taboo to suggest anything different. I don’t get it.
 
Rous14 said:
Imo, and as skip has alluded to I think, there are “pockets” like what you have. They do exist no question. However those types of farms, pockets, areas are without a doubt the exception. They might represent 10% of all the land in the Midwest.
So that said, in my post above regarding articles and messaging from the hunting industry at large, the message should be that 90% of landowners/hunters should probably be reducing or eliminating doe harvest. Or put another way 9 out of 10 articles you read online, in print, coming from the mouth of tv personalities etc….should be suggesting a reexamination of doe harvest strategies. The problem is is that it’s the exact inverse of that. 100% of articles and messaging all say the same thing…..kill more does. It’s like it’s taboo to suggest anything different. I don’t get it.
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Independent thinking goes a long ways.

Landowners are given 6 CWD tags yearly on top of the regular season tags in my CWD zone.

It's surprising the number of people that do not participate in that option to kill all bucks if they want for the given season. They could shoot 7 bucks with a rifle now if they so choose. We use them to take out older bucks that no one would shoot with a regular season tag.

Such as this guy

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Rous14 said:
Interesting that you think hunters’ general opinion is starting to change a bit Skip. I’ve shared my opinion on this topic many times on here and so I really, really hope you are right about that. Personally I’ve not gotten a sense that the pendulum has started to swing back but again I hope that you’re right and that it is.
I was just reading this week an article in either NDA’s weekly email or maybe it was Whitetail institutes print magazine can’t remember but “killing more does” was one of the bullet points in a management type article. I’ve said many times that the next article in a major publication suggesting a reduction in doe harvest will be the first. You just don’t see it. Same with the “t.v. hunters”. You won’t hear any of them saying that the herd has been reduced significantly in the majority of the Midwest and therefore they’re reducing or eliminating their doe harvest. Just the opposite.

So I’ve kinda felt that until those two things change a bit, all the general hunting industry & hunters here are that they need to kill more does to make their hunting better. Drives me crazy.
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Lee Lakosky has talked about not shooting does on his farms a bunch of times after they lost so many deer to ehd. There’s also been some podcasts lately with guys showing concern over shooting does because the does influence the genetics as much if not more than the bucks.
 
Here in SW Missouri, we haven't had the battle with EHD like y'all up north. I know this sounds crazy, but I don't know if we could catch up to where we need to in order to balance our ratio. We need to harvest 3 does for every 1 buck...and we are at a 1:1 on our harvest.
 
MarkF said:
Lee Lakosky has talked about not shooting does on his farms a bunch of times after they lost so many deer to ehd. There’s also been some podcasts lately with guys showing concern over shooting does because the does influence the genetics as much if not more than the bucks.
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Think I saw those podcasts you are referring to. Love it. That’s what it’s going to take and it’s EXTREMELY rare. Maybe it’s unfair of me to say 100% but it has to be 99% of the content.
 
Mid 2000s the iowa deer population was it's highest ever, and the deer hunting was the best ever (at least for me, although I've heard others say the same thing).

That being said, I still sit shoot 1-2 does per year. The farmer that let's me hunt wants deer shot, and I don't always get a buck every year, so I want meat.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk
 
Eggs are good for you. Eggs are bad for you. Eggs are good for you. Eggs are bad for you. (We're on like the 27th cycle of this within my lifetime already...)

It's pretty simple really. If you notice the doe #'s in your area could use a little pruning, then wack em and stack em. If not, don't.
 
letemgrow said:
Independent thinking goes a long ways.

Landowners are given 6 CWD tags yearly on top of the regular season tags in my CWD zone.

It's surprising the number of people that do not participate in that option to kill all bucks if they want for the given season. They could shoot 7 bucks with a rifle now if they so choose. We use them to take out older bucks that no one would shoot with a regular season tag.

Such as this guy

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This is awesome!!!! All of it. ^^^^ area is good habitat & food dynamics. Amazing landscape. I’ll leave it at that!!! ;). & I’m glad to see this area doing really well!!!!! I’d say my area is very similar - great habitat & ratio to food.
& that’s why I posted this - from my view - my area is still good. Great…..

But…. I’m in a lot of areas that are NOT & far from it. Those areas are wide spread & need help!!!
 
No reason for bucks to move much if you are overpopulated with does. Doe overpopulation also allows a lot more younger bucks to breed since most of the does come into heat all at once. The one argument I see against shooting does is the fighting/locked up and broken racks that result from all the fighting.
 
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