Coyote control?

[tc1968]

Just woundering what the opinion of coyote control should should be. I think the gloves should come off (keeping saftey regulations in place) and the regulations need to be changed to:

1) From Feb 1st through April - shooting a rifle from the road at a coyote should be allowed.
2) You don't need permission to shoot a coyote across a property line and you can retrieve it unarmed.
3) Cell phones and VHF radios are allowed.

I have found dens where there are 5 to 10 deer kills (spring) around them. It is time for the DNR to get serious about this problem!

 

[iowaqdm]

I would be fine with those changes. I would also like to see the State start controlling the coyotes with planes like South Dakota has been doing for years. I have heard of planes in South Dakota taking out 175-200 coyotes in a township in 2 days of flying. The only good coyote is a dead one IMO! :way: Sure wouldn't hurt the pheasant population either. But wait I was told by a DNR biologist and a PF representative a year ago that coyotes don't eat many pheasants and that fox are much harder on the pheasants. They even went as far as to say that a heavy coyote population supresses the fox population helping pheasants?????
:thrwrck:
I guess that would explain how in last 15 years I can count on two hands the number of fox I have seen in my area of Iowa while the coyote population has exploded and in that same 15 years the pheasant populations have also continued to spiral downward. Their reply to that was we have had several wet springs followed by bad winters. I guess that it didn't rain in the spring or snow in the winter between 1980 and 1995 because we had plenty of fox and pheasants. People also say that CRP was what caused the pheasent to do so well in the mid 80's thru the 90's but when questioning my dad about the subject he talks about the good days being the 60's and 70's for pheasant and quail hunting in Iowa. So my question would be....Do I believe my dad who was there and hunted from the 1960's thru today or the DNR biologist or PF representative who read it in a book in college? Let's just say that when it comes to our wildlife management in this State, every year that passes I think it is based more on their budget than on what is best for us as hunters or the species we are talking about.

 

[Shredder]

I have no love for coyotes either. They are hard on populations of all sorts and they are expanding to suburban and urban areas as well. I rarely give one a free pass...well never do but occasionally miss. Most I have shot in the past, aren't worth taking out of the woods as they are covered with mange or other skin diseases and they STANK!!!!!

 

[Liv4Rut]

I hear yah all there. They are crafty little critters. I love coyote hunting but pretty much only hunt the public ground. If any of you landowners want some yotes shot late winter and don't get out much yourself, I will come down with the FX3 and shoot as many as I can Hey, a guys gotta ask

 

[shedhunter93]

We put the smack down on them shotgun season...

 

[Daver]

I hear yah all there. They are crafty little critters. I love coyote hunting but pretty much only hunt the public ground. If any of you landowners want some yotes shot late winter and don't get out much yourself, I will come down with the FX3 and shoot as many as I can Hey, a guys gotta ask

Gotta ask though...do you intend to keep the hide or will you give it to the person that lets you on their ground?

 

[Iowa1]

Iowaqdm here is a little background on the historical pheasant population in Iowa. Back in the 60's there was a program called the soil bank program that set aside a lot of good pheasant habitat. Plus Iowa was a lot different place those days. There were brushy fencerows everywhere, many many farm groves and marshes. Remember, in the 1960's the average farmer could make a living on 160 acres. Nowadays, all those groves havve been torn down, the fences removed and much of the sections are farmed from road to road. When I first got really serious about pheasant hunting in the 70's, the population was not that great, and it was seeing the strain of the things I just mentioned. The farm bill of 1985 and the millions of acres of the new CRP program changed all that. Suddenly we were in the heyday of pheasant hunting. It was the best pheasant hunting I have ever seen and probably will ever see. High commodity prices and fewer CRP acreage is what has spelled the end of the pheasant heyday. Combine that with the wet springs, ice storms, etc. and we have a perfect storm so to speak and the lowest pheasant populations in my lifetime. They will come back, but they will never be back to the levels there were in the 80's and 90's. No matter how many coyotes you kill. The habitat isn't there for it.

Coyotes do not kill many pheasants, but they do take a toll on foxes, which raid pheasant nests. The problem really is that the numbers of furbearers being harvested is way down. Skunks, possums and coons take far more pheasants than coyotes ever will. They do it by eating the eggs. So if you take all these things into account, you can see why the pheasant population is so bad. I do not think we will ever see the amazing pheasant hunting that we had in the 80's and 90's ever again.

 

[Adventure]

I would agree with you but my fear is always that the coyote population may one day end up similar to the Wolf population in much of the US. If we try to control it to much, we may do more harm than good.

 

[tc1968]

Iowaqdm here is a little background on the historical pheasant population in Iowa. Back in the 60's there was a program called the soil bank program that set aside a lot of good pheasant habitat. Plus Iowa was a lot different place those days. There were brushy fencerows everywhere, many many farm groves and marshes. Remember, in the 1960's the average farmer could make a living on 160 acres. Nowadays, all those groves havve been torn down, the fences removed and much of the sections are farmed from road to road. When I first got really serious about pheasant hunting in the 70's, the population was not that great, and it was seeing the strain of the things I just mentioned. The farm bill of 1985 and the millions of acres of the new CRP program changed all that. Suddenly we were in the heyday of pheasant hunting. It was the best pheasant hunting I have ever seen and probably will ever see. High commodity prices and fewer CRP acreage is what has spelled the end of the pheasant heyday. Combine that with the wet springs, ice storms, etc. and we have a perfect storm so to speak and the lowest pheasant populations in my lifetime. They will come back, but they will never be back to the levels there were in the 80's and 90's. No matter how many coyotes you kill. The habitat isn't there for it.

Coyotes do not kill many pheasants, but they do take a toll on foxes, which raid pheasant nests. The problem really is that the numbers of furbearers being harvested is way down. Skunks, possums and coons take far more pheasants than coyotes ever will. They do it by eating the eggs. So if you take all these things into account, you can see why the pheasant population is so bad. I do not think we will ever see the amazing pheasant hunting that we had in the 80's and 90's ever again.

All good points. But if you go around Iowa, there are areas like you described above (brushy fence rows, CRP, etc)- but yet no pheasants. Why? Who knows for sure but one thing that is being discussed is the farming practices and the use of chemicals. Now is it weakening the egg shells? Killing the spring bugs off? (just walk around in the spring and there are not the creepy crawlies needed for chicks to eat) More efficient farming? Or is it predator control? I say all of the above and then some!

 

[DannyBoy]

Iowa1, you hit the nail on the head. When I was involved with ISU's student chapter as a chair-holder and later President, I learned a lot and much of what I learned you summed up pretty well. Coyotes don't even make the top 5 as far as pheasant predation goes. They are much more likely to take out a deer fawn or gang up and take out a mature deer.

 

[tc1968]

Iowa1, you hit the nail on the head. When I was involved with ISU's student chapter as a chair-holder and later President, I learned a lot and much of what I learned you summed up pretty well. Coyotes don't even make the top 5 as far as pheasant predation goes. They are much more likely to take out a deer fawn or gang up and take out a mature deer.

That is what the original question was about - deer control. But to your point and knowledge we need to allow people to control the coyotes by any safe means possible. In our area the DNR are "hunting" out coyote hunters who run in groups (during late winter) and these groups actually do some good. For a number of years now these "outlaw" groups (if you ask the DNR) have killed a lot of coyotes. Now guess what? In areas they hunt we are now seeing fox again. We are seeing more pheasants. We see more deer. But if you ask a conservation expert that can't be!

<O</OI am in no way and expert, biology major or involved with the DNR. I am just “a nobody” in NW Iowa who lives in the literal world and relies on common sense. But there are a lot of “us” out here and we see what we see. The issue is the majority of our officials don’t care – don’t listen –don’t change or even hunt! It is time to change all of this or my kids are going to look at pictures of family hunts and explain to their kids – “once upon a time, grandpa could own a gun and had animals to hunt”.<O</O<O</O

 

[Liv4Rut]

Gotta ask though...do you intend to keep the hide or will you give it to the person that lets you on their ground?

Whoever wants the hide can have it!! I usually just let them lay. I know its probably wrong but they are coyotes.

 

[KSHUNTER]

I live in Kansas and coyotes can be hunted almost any way you want with no closed season. The only law that is in place is you must have permission to be on the place. <O</O
<O</O

I personally know and sometimes hunt with a group of guys who use trucks and grey hounds to run down coyotes. They are pretty good at what they do, and have hunted the same areas for 20 plus years, and on a typical year take 300+ coyotes from November 1st to April 1st. <O</O
<O</O

Even with taking out this many coyotes every single year it has yet to affect the numbers of coyotes. I’m not sure how many you would have to kill a year to see a decline in the population, but it would be a ton. Short of dropping poisoned bait it would be very difficult to decline the population to a significant degree using traditional hunting methods. <O</O

 

[DoneRight]

I believe that coyotes are a problem with regards to the pheasant population. However, I believe that the Red Tail Hawks are a bigger problem. Next time you go for a drive, look and count how many hawks you see. It is nothing to 1 to 2 every linear mile. I've had red tails swoop down & take turkey decoys until they figure out they are fake. Do you think they wouldn't take a pheasant?

 

[Shredder]

I'm kind of surprised the bobcat has not made it into this thread. I really surprised the harvest number hasn't been on the increase either...well more than the allotted 250 until the season gets closed.

All the fur bearers that are predators are on the rise in population since not many folks hunt them anymore and if coon hunters do, its for the dog's benefit for the chase and many don't get harvested. I think all of that has taken a toll on the game bird numbers in general.

 

[AZHunter]

I live in Kansas and coyotes can be hunted almost any way you want with no closed season. The only law that is in place is you must have permission to be on the place. <O</O
<O</O

I personally know and sometimes hunt with a group of guys who use trucks and grey hounds to run down coyotes. They are pretty good at what they do, and have hunted the same areas for 20 plus years, and on a typical year take 300+ coyotes from November 1st to April 1st. <O</O
<O</O

Even with taking out this many coyotes every single year it has yet to affect the numbers of coyotes. I’m not sure how many you would have to kill a year to see a decline in the population, but it would be a ton. Short of dropping poisoned bait it would be very difficult to decline the population to a significant degree using traditional hunting methods. <O</O

There is a very good reason why taking that many coyotes every year doesn't affect overall numbers. As a wildlife biologist working to conserve and restore endangered and declining species across the southwest, I have to review all kinds of peer-reviewed scientific literature. One of my responsibilities is working to recover the Mojave desert tortoise and one of the issues is predation by coyotes. There is a pretty good amount of research that shows coyotes (across the country, not just in the SW) respond to depradation by increasing their fecundity. That is, females have higher numbers of litters per year and increased litter size (# pups/litter) in response to heavy depradation. Its been well documented by state wildlife agencies when trying to help raise pronghorn numbers. If anyone is interested, I can dig up the articles I have on depredation (coyote specific) and pass along the pdf articles.

Having said all that, I'm in no way anti-coyote hunting. I've removed a few myself when I was younger and before I became a "shoot-only-what-you-eat" hunter. As a professional wildlife biologist with more than a decade of practical experience in wildlife management and, particularly, assessing and trying to stop threats to declining wildlife and plants, I can thoroughly support what several have said about coyotes and their lack of threat to pheasants, etc. and what the real issues are (lack of habitat, increased nest predation, chemical use, non-native species invasions, etc.). Those have also been VERY WELL documented by top notch researchers across the country with several different species. As to the original question someone came back to regarding deer numbers; again, as one who looks at the needs of the ecosystem as a whole over the needs of individual species (including with endangered species quite often), I firmly believe in predator management where necessary. Coyotes can certainly wreak havoc on deer populations and attempts should be made to contol them in several areas, even if they respond by producing more than you started with. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying as anti-coyote hunting. I just thought I'd take the opportunity to share a little good science.

As my BIL in south Texas said, when I explained the futility (science-based, not opposed as I said earlier): "I guess I'll just have to start shooting even more of them."

 

[IQDM]

There is a very good reason why taking that many coyotes every year doesn't affect overall numbers. There is a pretty good amount of research that shows coyotes (across the country, not just in the SW) respond to depradation by increasing their fecundity. That is, females have higher numbers of litters per year and increased litter size (# pups/litter) in response to heavy depradation.

I agree with AZHunter... the best way to protect deer and phesants alike from Coyotes is -- to hire a good trapper to take out furbearers that are nest robbers. -- to improve the habbitat, creating better (safer) fawning and nesting areas -- Try to keep the buck to doe ratio fairly ballanced so that the rut is shorter, making the fawns drop all at once as opposed to a long drawn out drop where the yotes have more time to pick them off at a young age -- Concentrate your coyote hunting efforts on "problem coyotes" that are ganging up and taking out full sized deer... normal coyotes still suck, but the coyotes that have learned how to pack hunt and bring down full sized deer are really the ones you have to worry about IMO -- and finally try not to take out too many coyotes so they they go into re-establishment mode having 13pups per litter!
Like AZHunter, I am def. not anti-yote hunting by any means! I just simply have come to accept that the coyote is one of the most adaptable creatures on this earth and we will never be able to get rid of them! My fox pro is on the charger as we speak, but the above tactics are really the true ticket to coyote control IMO. :way:

 

[AZHunter]

I've got to say, IQDM, I thought my post would go over like a turd in a punchbowl. I totally didn't expect to be agreed with on this one, but I couldn't resist sharing a little sound science anyways. I think you summed up the solution about a good as I've ever seen it! Last year, I put the crosshairs on a coyote in S. TX that was eyeing a fawn very closely and as I was about to give him a good fill of Barnes TSX, he wandered off. Have fun up there, guys. Our archery season opened back up today and I'm hoping to get back after them next weekend (son's bday party tomorrow and Christmas shopping Sunday) through the end of January. Hoping for a buck in Dec. and one again in Jan!

 

[captain]

I hear yah all there. They are crafty little critters. I love coyote hunting but pretty much only hunt the public ground. If any of you landowners want some yotes shot late winter and don't get out much yourself, I will come down with the FX3 and shoot as many as I can Hey, a guys gotta ask

Liv...you are more than welcome to come up and shoot as many as you want.Just let me tag along and let me buy you as many beers as you want afterwards.
Seriously.
PM me.

 

[IQDM]

ha ha thanks AZ... I've always said this about the adaptability of coyotes and deer... when the world ends, the last 3 living things will be a coyote, a 6yr old buck, and Bear Grylls! (man vs. wild)