Crossbow question….

[Rous14]

So I am not a fan of crossguns and hate the fact that in IL where I own land and hunt they are legal and very popular among hunters in the archery season. I think pretty much everyone agrees that they are way easier to kill a deer with, much more lethal, and are being used the entire archery season. What I can’t quite “square” in my mind and when I’m talking with pro crossbow folks is that despite all of those things that everyone agrees on, the overall harvest in IL hasn’t really changed at all since they became legal and widely used. Opinions on why that might be?

 

[northcedar]

Are they making people more selective?

 

[Sligh1]

So I am not a fan of crossguns and hate the fact that in IL where I own land and hunt they are legal and very popular among hunters in the archery season. I think pretty much everyone agrees that they are way easier to kill a deer with, much more lethal, and are being used the entire archery season. What I can’t quite “square” in my mind and when I’m talking with pro crossbow folks is that despite all of those things that everyone agrees on, the overall harvest in IL hasn’t really changed at all since they became legal and widely used. Opinions on why that might be?

I’ll take a stab at that….
If u looked at access to quality land in IL, for the everyday guy across the state in last 20 years, bet that graph or line goes down at a rapid rate. I’m certain it does.
The amount of people killing with crossbows is likely counterbalanced with loss of access to shoot deer. I bet it’s a wash if that’s reality. The other thing I think is correct…. IL has had a decrease in deer population in 20 years. I’m going back in my memory there.
It has hurt age structure overall. Over the whole state- there is no doubt in my mind, I’m 100000% certain the age structure is vastly deteriorated now vs the time I was there late 90’s to early 2000’s…. BOTTOM LINE IMO:
1) crossbow addition generally (wisconsin data is great example) does not create new hunters…. It takes gun hunters from gun season & adds more guys to archery…. Which destroys access (reference archery permission in any state: dwindling. In IL- pretty much GONE!!!!).
2) less deer #’s, deteriorated age structure & less places for folks to go …. It kinda counterbalanced itself out. I’d say the average hunting simply got dropped down in quality several notches. Access has been wiped out in 30 years. It’s all pay to play. Top ending of best gen deer has increased & crossbows have absolutely helped with that!!!
So- we see what all these things do to a system… add this or that or crossbows or _______. IL did them. More hunters? Nope. More access to quality land? Nope. Better age structure & balanced herd? Nope. New hunters starting & staying? Nope. I really can’t see any changes IL has made in 20-30 years that has had positive results. The one area the “hard core hunters” might appreciate is their success at locking up large tracts & some might celebrate the vast amount of everyday guys that quit. & in a sense, I don’t blame them & I don’t blame the guys that quit. I understand both. The sad part is- it didn’t need to happen like that. Both groups could have had quality hunting if they didn’t liberalize the regs over 30 years. Now- the well-to-do “find a way” & lock it up & the everyday hunter lives with crumbs or quits. Crossbows absolutely fit perfectly into this $hitstorm. This is what we call a broken system. Typical governmental policies & regulations where the unintended consequences made the situation far worse. Hope the pendulum swings the other way. More importantly- lesson to iowa!!!! Don’t follow that path!!!!!!!!

 

[Muskrat24]

I’ll take a stab at that….
If u looked at access to quality land in IL, for the everyday guy across the state in last 20 years, bet that graph or line goes down at a rapid rate. I’m certain it does.
The amount of people killing with crossbows is likely counterbalanced with loss of access to shoot deer. I bet it’s a wash if that’s reality. The other thing I think is correct…. IL has had a decrease in deer population in 20 years. I’m going back in my memory there.
It has hurt age structure overall. Over the whole state- there is no doubt in my mind, I’m 100000% certain the age structure is vastly deteriorated now vs the time I was there late 90’s to early 2000’s…. BOTTOM LINE IMO:
1) crossbow addition generally (wisconsin data is great example) does not create new hunters…. It takes gun hunters from gun season & adds more guys to archery…. Which destroys access (reference archery permission in any state: dwindling. In IL- pretty much GONE!!!!).
2) less deer #’s, deteriorated age structure & less places for folks to go …. It kinda counterbalanced itself out. I’d say the average hunting simply got dropped down in quality several notches. Access has been wiped out in 30 years. It’s all pay to play. Top ending of best gen deer has increased & crossbows have absolutely helped with that!!!
So- we see what all these things do to a system… add this or that or crossbows or _______. IL did them. More hunters? Nope. More access to quality land? Nope. Better age structure & balanced herd? Nope. New hunters starting & staying? Nope. I really can’t see any changes IL has made in 20-30 years that has had positive results. The one area the “hard core hunters” might appreciate is their success at locking up large tracts & some might celebrate the vast amount of everyday guys that quit. & in a sense, I don’t blame them & I don’t blame the guys that quit. I understand both. The sad part is- it didn’t need to happen like that. Both groups could have had quality hunting if they didn’t liberalize the regs over 30 years. Now- the well-to-do “find a way” & lock it up & the everyday hunter lives with crumbs or quits. Crossbows absolutely fit perfectly into this $hitstorm. This is what we call a broken system. Typical governmental policies & regulations where the unintended consequences made the situation far worse. Hope the pendulum swings the other way. More importantly- lesson to iowa!!!! Don’t follow that path!!!!!!!!

An interesting research project would be to see what happened to license sales. IMO there was probably (very likely) a spike in archery permit sales the first few years after crossbows were allowed. From what I see of people is that it is cool when it is new and then interest dwindles off. Gun hunters are gun hunters and that is not a jab at them. You can still shoot farther with a gun. From what I saw with MO interest was huge when crossbows first legal but a small percentage actually stuck with it if they were traditionally not archery hunters to start with. I actually see more aging hunters that were die hard bow hunters using crossbows because their age caught them and they still enjoy being out but difficult to pull a bow than I do gun hunters that switched to using crossbows. Population, age structure, more selective hunters and reduced antlerless permits are likely factors as well in regards to the flat harvest data. Reduced access because of crossbows is a stretch IMO. Iowa is no different on losing access, that is a factor of greed and horn porn more than crossbows IMO. I am not in favor of crossbows in Iowa archery season.

 

[Rous14]

An interesting research project would be to see what happened to license sales. IMO there was probably (very likely) a spike in archery permit sales the first few years after crossbows were allowed. From what I see of people is that it is cool when it is new and then interest dwindles off. Gun hunters are gun hunters and that is not a jab at them. You can still shoot farther with a gun. From what I saw with MO interest was huge when crossbows first legal but a small percentage actually stuck with it if they were traditionally not archery hunters to start with. I actually see more aging hunters that were die hard bow hunters using crossbows because their age caught them and they still enjoy being out but difficult to pull a bow than I do gun hunters that switched to using crossbows. Population, age structure, more selective hunters and reduced antlerless permits are likely factors as well in regards to the flat harvest data. Reduced access because of crossbows is a stretch IMO. Iowa is no different on losing access, that is a factor of greed and horn porn more than crossbows IMO. I am not in favor of crossbows in Iowa archery season.

Reduced antlerless permits? Are you talking MO specifically? I could be wrong but I’m not sure, at least in IL, there’s been any meaningful reduction in doe permits. I wish that were the case and it’s what the state needs badly imo.

But I do agree that it seems like the connection to access idea isn't something I’d really considered before and I’m not sure I’m seeing the connection necessarily. Talking with the Huntr podcast guys and they kinda said the same thing Skip is. Maybe there were way more landowners than I think that used to give permission to folks for gun season and then bc that group didn’t bow hunt, additional permission to a couple of guys to bow hunt but I have to think that was a pretty small % of cases. In my mind, access didn’t suddenly go from very hard to impossible once crossbows were legalized. It’s always been at the impossible level. We simply took half the vertical bow hunters that were already hunting/leasing land and they switched to crossguns. No net effect on access but I could be wrong. it should’ve however had an impact on harvest numbers though I’d think and that’s what I can’t quite piece together.

 

[Sligh1]

An interesting research project would be to see what happened to license sales. IMO there was probably (very likely) a spike in archery permit sales the first few years after crossbows were allowed. From what I see of people is that it is cool when it is new and then interest dwindles off. Gun hunters are gun hunters and that is not a jab at them. You can still shoot farther with a gun. From what I saw with MO interest was huge when crossbows first legal but a small percentage actually stuck with it if they were traditionally not archery hunters to start with. I actually see more aging hunters that were die hard bow hunters using crossbows because their age caught them and they still enjoy being out but difficult to pull a bow than I do gun hunters that switched to using crossbows. Population, age structure, more selective hunters and reduced antlerless permits are likely factors as well in regards to the flat harvest data. Reduced access because of crossbows is a stretch IMO. Iowa is no different on losing access, that is a factor of greed and horn porn more than crossbows IMO. I am not in favor of crossbows in Iowa archery season.

Interesting & good points.
One big ? I pose or know.. what happened to archery access in 20 years? In Illinois - 2000 to 2004 we had the permission on countless farms across several counties. We quit going when outfitting exploded. Leasing dominated & u would see huge groups of NR’s (I also was a nr) stack up the 2-3 year olds. Huge groups would even shoot the 1.5’s if it was there last day. Somewhere along the way with all those other disasters- they through xbows in there too. Not one single issue is at fault but all of these things added up to ruining what I saw in Illinois in 5-10 years. 10-15 years after I went there…. Countless buddies continued. Or residents I know discuss it with me to this day. Archery access is GONE. U own, lease, outfit or hunt public. That’s a MASSIVE SHIFT in 20 years.
Iowa is not nearly that bad. It’s “bad” & “getting harder” but not even close. Now- we can speed this up to get to IL type archery access….. get more outfitters tags, put crossbows during our archery season & increase tags in any fashion…. Access is gone. & dudes around me still do get reasonable access. Why We’d ruin this & make it drastically worse is perplexing. The only answer: crossbow companies make $. That’s it. There’s no other motive or reasoning. Period. I’ll use a crossbow when I’m old or my body falls apart. No one has issue with this. Literally, the only/main driving force to all this is the crossbow pimps who are from ny & co that want to profit off exploiting states resource & hunters. Not happening to iowa. Hunters don’t want it & we are not for sale.

Last side note…. Iowa having <8% timber & smaller deer herd than all our neighbors…. Our saving grace has always been “guns aren’t in middle of rut” & “gun is 5 days long”…. U stuff xbows in 60 days of archery season- that’s gonna negate a big issue that has kept this fragile state great. Xbows are “shorter range guns” & would be in the heart of archery season if the xbow pimps got their way. & many of these xbows are shooting the same distances a lot of guys shot slugs at 30 years ago. Don’t ruin this state!!!!!

 

[Rous14]

Interesting & good points.
One big ? I pose or know.. what happened to archery access in 20 years? In Illinois - 2000 to 2004 we had the permission on countless farms across several counties. We quit going when outfitting exploded. Leasing dominated & u would see huge groups of NR’s (I also was a nr) stack up the 2-3 year olds. Huge groups would even shoot the 1.5’s if it was there last day. Somewhere along the way with all those other disasters- they through xbows in there too. Not one single issue is at fault but all of these things added up to ruining what I saw in Illinois in 5-10 years. 10-15 years after I went there…. Countless buddies continued. Or residents I know discuss it with me to this day. Archery access is GONE. U own, lease, outfit or hunt public. That’s a MASSIVE SHIFT in 20 years.
Iowa is not nearly that bad. It’s “bad” & “getting harder” but not even close. Now- we can speed this up to get to IL type archery access….. get more outfitters tags, put crossbows during our archery season & increase tags in any fashion…. Access is gone. & dudes around me still do get reasonable access. Why We’d ruin this & make it drastically worse is perplexing. The only answer: crossbow companies make $. That’s it. There’s no other motive or reasoning. Period. I’ll use a crossbow when I’m old or my body falls apart. No one has issue with this. Literally, the only/main driving force to all this is the crossbow pimps who are from ny & co that want to profit off exploiting states resource & hunters. Not happening to iowa. Hunters don’t want it & we are not for sale.

Kinda talking about a couple separate issues though imo Skip. Demise of the quality and quantity of the IL deer herd. And access. Crossguns were only legalized in 2017.

Access- In my mind access to “quality“ illinois ground was nearly impossible back in the 2000s with the explosion of outiftters. Outfitters went away big time after ehd, still a bunch but not nearly as many. Access to quality IL ground from 2012-2016 was still impossible. I’m just not sure crossbows, as much as I hate everything about them, moved the needle much on the access side of things. I just think the existing hunters (like you said, we didn’t create new hunters w xguns) switched which weapon they were using.

Quality- The quality in IL was still exceptional in 2010, 2011 right up until the massive EHD outbreak in 2012. Had it started to decline some prior? Maybe but it was marginal. I see the reasons folks point to as to why Illinois got ruined and it’s always outiftters, non resident hunters, now crossguns, and I definitely think those 3 things make it harder to have high quality age structure but I still maintain that by far and away the #1 reason for IL’s downfall is simply a massive reduction in herd numbers and that’s the one nobody ever mentions and it drives me nuts. Like I say, from 2000-2012 the hunting was truly exceptional and there was tons of nr’s and outfitters. The only thing that massively changed things was the ehd outbreak in 2012. That’s 95% of the reason. I’m convinced that if IL grew the herd numbers back up to the same levels (will never happen) they were in mid 2000’s it would still be phenomenal. Maybe not Iowa level, but a small step behind.

As I mentioned in a separate thread, right now IL has the least number of deer it’s had in 33 years! Pressure is the same, high like everywhere else. You put the same number of fisherman on a lake as there was 15 years ago but reduce the number of fish in the lake by 30-50% and the quality will suck because guys are still going to take some fish home to eat.

 

[Rous14]

Would also add one small comment too to your point about all the nr’s flooding the state in the 2000s and shooting the 1.5 to 3.5yr olds. Don’t disagree, that was definitely happening, but the residents that may have been displaced on that same farm when the outfitter leased it out from them were shooting the same 1.5-3.5 yr olds in the majority of situations anyway. In other words, you take a random group of 2000 resident hunters in IL back then and compare it to the 2000 NR hunters that came in and hunted w an outfitter and I’d suspect the breakdown of the age and quality of the deer that those two groups killed were nearly identical. Still to this day when we take our deer to the local processor, the majority of bucks laying there are 1.5-3.5 yr olds and 90% of them are local resident hunters.

 

[northcedar]

I agree with Rous's points. The herd was too big. That's when the most big bucks were running around. My county doesn't have any outfitters, so not sure how to comment on that. We've been looking at a few fb pages that are somewhat local to the area and to IL in general and I'm seeing no shortage of excellent big mature bucks being taken. Looks like the local taxidermists are filling up.

I wish there were more restrictions on crossbows. Like only December on, or only age 50 or 60 and up.

 

[Sligh1]

Kinda talking about a couple separate issues though imo Skip. Demise of the quality and quantity of the IL deer herd. And access. Crossguns were only legalized in 2017.

Access- In my mind access to “quality“ illinois ground was nearly impossible back in the 2000s with the explosion of outiftters. Outfitters went away big time after ehd, still a bunch but not nearly as many. Access to quality IL ground from 2012-2016 was still impossible. I’m just not sure crossbows, as much as I hate everything about them, moved the needle much on the access side of things. I just think the existing hunters (like you said, we didn’t create new hunters w xguns) switched which weapon they were using.

Quality- The quality in IL was still exceptional in 2010, 2011 right up until the massive EHD outbreak in 2012. Had it started to decline some prior? Maybe but it was marginal. I see the reasons folks point to as to why Illinois got ruined and it’s always outiftters, non resident hunters, now crossguns, and I definitely think those 3 things make it harder to have high quality age structure but I still maintain that by far and away the #1 reason for IL’s downfall is simply a massive reduction in herd numbers and that’s the one nobody ever mentions and it drives me nuts. Like I say, from 2000-2012 the hunting was truly exceptional and there was tons of nr’s and outfitters. The only thing that massively changed things was the ehd outbreak in 2012. That’s 95% of the reason. I’m convinced that if IL grew the herd numbers back up to the same levels (will never happen) they were in mid 2000’s it would still be phenomenal. Maybe not Iowa level, but a small step behind.

As I mentioned in a separate thread, right now IL has the least number of deer it’s had in 33 years! Pressure is the same, high like everywhere else. You put the same number of fisherman on a lake as there was 15 years ago but reduce the number of fish in the lake by 30-50% and the quality will suck because guys are still going to take some fish home to eat.

We are hurting from ehd as well. It’s always a “multiple of things” that define the end result. We got devastated several different periods. I would say Iowa age structure is substantially better than IL. IL clearly has more deer, way more habitat but also has more hunters. But overall - iowa does a superior job & it’s for sure multiple issues.
Population being down…. What do u feel like the quality of age structure is on Average across state? Obviously u said deer numbers are lower and ehd. Has age structure gotten better since ehd gets behind u further?
I would add…. I think Iowas age structure is down in last 10 years. Big part of it is ehd. The other part is more pressure on average parcels where more 2-4 year olds got shot. That’s for sure changed here in 20 years. For sure got tougher on average farms.
Seems like the trend on all issues is “getting tougher”. Some states maybe it won’t get any tougher as they been at the bottom so long- the only way is up!! MI & PA have both got better - for different reasons but they have. Those are exceptions. IA & KS are still on top IMHO but they have taken a beating. From my perspective - looking across the river…, IL seems a good bit behind iowa but maybe im off. & I sure hope it gets better. I really do. I’ll never go there again but I wish the overall quality would increase …. It absolutely could ALONG WITH HIGHER REVENUE!! Which is what the politicians want - increase quality- u guys could bring in more $ at same time.
Sorry- back on topic…. I’ll just reiterate…. The trend for most states is degrading the resource & access…. Iowa does not need to continue to follow those lost & broken paths!!! Crossbows is a BIG ONE in our fragile state. We have enough struggles as it is & they would hurt us. Leave em in their own season, for seniors & disabled & the crossbow lobbyists need to go back to chasing ambulances for a living!

I agree with Rous's points. The herd was too big. That's when the most big bucks were running around. My county doesn't have any outfitters, so not sure how to comment on that. We've been looking at a few fb pages that are somewhat local to the area and to IL in general and I'm seeing no shortage of excellent big mature bucks being taken. Looks like the local taxidermists are filling up.

I wish there were more restrictions on crossbows. Like only December on, or only age 50 or 60 and up.

Agree on residents shooting same as NR’s. But what happened was…. There were few NR’s for a long time…. U added a huge NEW group to come in and shoot 1-3 yo old bucks. Instead of “20,000 residents shooting them” - eventually u had “20,000 residents + 15,000 NR’s shooting them”. Or whatever the # would be for NR’s. It hurt that state big league!!!! I watched armies of dudes travel there for 5-7 days that “had to get their buck”. 5 years that states quality went down toilet & that was pre-ehd.

 

[Rous14]

We are hurting from ehd as well. It’s always a “multiple of things” that define the end result. We got devastated several different periods. I would say Iowa age structure is substantially better than IL. IL clearly has more deer, way more habitat but also has more hunters. But overall - iowa does a superior job & it’s for sure multiple issues.
Population being down…. What do u feel like the quality of age structure is on Average across state? Obviously u said deer numbers are lower and ehd. Has age structure gotten better since ehd gets behind u further?
I would add…. I think Iowas age structure is down in last 10 years. Big part of it is ehd. The other part is more pressure on average parcels where more 2-4 year olds got shot. That’s for sure changed here in 20 years. For sure got tougher on average farms.
Seems like the trend on all issues is “getting tougher”. Some states maybe it won’t get any tougher as they been at the bottom so long- the only way is up!! MI & PA have both got better - for different reasons but they have. Those are exceptions. IA & KS are still on top IMHO but they have taken a beating. From my perspective - looking across the river…, IL seems a good bit behind iowa but maybe im off. & I sure hope it gets better. I really do. I’ll never go there again but I wish the overall quality would increase …. It absolutely could ALONG WITH HIGHER REVENUE!! Which is what the politicians want - increase quality- u guys could bring in more $ at same time.
Sorry- back on topic…. I’ll just reiterate…. The trend for most states is degrading the resource & access…. Iowa does not need to continue to follow those lost & broken paths!!! Crossbows is a BIG ONE in our fragile state. We have enough struggles as it is & they would hurt us. Leave em in their own season, for seniors & disabled & the crossbow lobbyists need to go back to chasing ambulances for a living!

Agree on residents shooting same as NR’s. But what happened was…. There were few NR’s for a long time…. U added a huge NEW group to come in and shoot 1-3 yo old bucks. Instead of “20,000 residents shooting them” - eventually u had “20,000 residents + 15,000 NR’s shooting them”. Or whatever the # would be for NR’s. It hurt that state big league!!!! I watched armies of dudes travel there for 5-7 days that “had to get their buck”. 5 years that states quality went down toilet & that was pre-ehd.

All good conversation. On your question to me on age structure it’s hard for me to truly quantify because it’s one of those things that I feel none of the states do a good job of measuring (and admittedly it’s hard to do). My true belief is that in IL the age structure is actually better than most folks think it’s just that there’s not a big enough herd, not enough of them relative to the hunting pressure. But % wise, the number of 5 plus old deer in my area is actually very decent imo. Now if you added 30-50% more deer I’m of the opinion that you would be adding 30-50% more of every age class of deer. That’s what it was like in the 2000s. Age structure was similar, you just had way more deer. Neighbors of mine would find 100 sheds in those days. Today they find 20. It’s less about age structure, buck:doe ratio, etc….at least imo. It’s a simple math problem. Add more deer or add more fish to the lake (assuming the habitat can support it and in IL it obviously can) while keeping the number of hunters steady or declining (like it is in most Midwest states) and it’s impossible to not have more 5 year olds walking around.

 

[MarkF]

So I am not a fan of crossguns and hate the fact that in IL where I own land and hunt they are legal and very popular among hunters in the archery season. I think pretty much everyone agrees that they are way easier to kill a deer with, much more lethal, and are being used the entire archery season. What I can’t quite “square” in my mind and when I’m talking with pro crossbow folks is that despite all of those things that everyone agrees on, the overall harvest in IL hasn’t really changed at all since they became legal and widely used. Opinions on why that might be?

Could it be that crossbows haven’t really recruited many new hunters but instead converted gun hunters to archery hunters?

 

[Rous14]

I agree with Rous's points. The herd was too big. That's when the most big bucks were running around. My county doesn't have any outfitters, so not sure how to comment on that. We've been looking at a few fb pages that are somewhat local to the area and to IL in general and I'm seeing no shortage of excellent big mature bucks being taken. Looks like the local taxidermists are filling up.

I wish there were more restrictions on crossbows. Like only December on, or only age 50 or 60 and up.

Just to clarify, you’ll never hear me say the herd was too big. I’m saying that it was phenomenal in the 2000s and if we simply went back and mirrored the herd population to what it was in those days IL would once again be one of the top 3 or 4 states in the country despite crossguns, outfitters, liberal NR tags, etc…The herd right now is way too small to allow for that to happen. Im not naive though, the farm bereau and auto insurance lobby will never allow it to get that big again. What I’ve always tried to say is that the hunters taking a 30-50% hit was unfair and that the middle ground should’ve been a 10-15% reduction and that’s what we should be fighting for right now.

 

[Rous14]

Could it be that crossbows haven’t really recruited many new hunters but instead converted gun hunters to archery hunters?

Definitely has happened. To what extent I’m not sure. But still, IL basically has a 3 day gun season followed by a 4 day season a couple weeks later. if some of the gun hunters switched to the bow season bc of crossguns they now have like 60 days to kill something instead of 7. Seems like the harvest would go up as a result of that and that’s what I can’t quite sort out.

 

[MarkF]

Definitely has happened. To what extent I’m not sure. But still, IL basically has a 3 day gun season followed by a 4 day season a couple weeks later. if some of the gun hunters switched to the bow season bc of crossguns they now have like 60 days to kill something instead of 7. Seems like the harvest would go up as a result of that and that’s what I can’t quite sort out.

Sounds like the herd numbers are so low that guys that would kill more deer can’t find any, and guys with tracts that hold large numbers won’t give access to people who would. A friend of mine owns/hunts 5000 acres in southern Illinois, they have plenty of deer but still have an extremely hard time finding anything over 170 and that’s gotten a lot worse since crossbows.

 

[Rous14]

Sounds like the herd numbers are so low that guys that would kill more deer can’t find any, and guys with tracts that hold large numbers won’t give access to people who would. A friend of mine owns/hunts 5000 acres in southern Illinois, they have plenty of deer but still have an extremely hard time finding anything over 170 and that’s gotten a lot worse since crossbows.

Wow that’s surprising. 5000 acres is beyond comprehension haha. I don’t know much about southern IL, haven’t ever really had any experience down there. Is he getting bucks to 5-7 years old but they just don’t have the racks or is he struggling to get them to age? Hard to imagine w that much ground he doesn’t have some slammers and quite a few of them.

 

[northcedar]

Hah no kidding. Something not right there. What's he have, 250 20 acre farms?

 

[tall@wide]

I did not read all the comments above, but I can say a couple things about cross bows for sure.
1. People that did not bow hunt in the past are now bowhunting more and more with crossbows. This means that during the rut when young bucks are vulnerable, they are getting shot. In my past area of Illinois most of the good genetic 2–3-year-old bucks were getting shot by crossbow hunters. The age structure in Illinois is being destroyed and Illinois will continue to see this more and more as the years pass.
2. More crossbow hunters means less private land available to hunt and it also means more crowded public land hunting areas. In return, lease prices go up because all the NR hunters pile into places like Illinois each fall.
Crossbows are doing a lot of damage that will really be seen in the years to come when it comes to age structure and areas to hunt.

 

[MarkF]

Wow that’s surprising. 5000 acres is beyond comprehension haha. I don’t know much about southern IL, haven’t ever really had any experience down there. Is he getting bucks to 5-7 years old but they just don’t have the racks or is he struggling to get them to age? Hard to imagine w that much ground he doesn’t have some slammers and quite a few of them.

Multiple farms of different sizes, they always have a couple big deer that are over 5 years old, really struggle to get high scoring young deer past 3-4 years old. Hunting pressure has really hurt them, 10-15 years ago he would film bachelor groups and there would be multiple 180-200 inch bucks, now you’re lucky to see a 160. I also have a buddy with 400 acres in pike county and it’s absolutely pathetic, in 4 years they have not had a good buck on the place( he’s bordered by an outfitter that kills everything).

 

[Sligh1]

on possibly another take…. take my MI or PA examples in high population areas. Or even MO…
U can find tons of areas with massive deer populations…. Look out in fields of “50 deer” & it’s a handful of 1.5’s with a 2.5 on occasion. Those bucks got picked off one by one - day by day of a multi-month season.
I’ll give u a real example that’s more apples to apples…. Go across the line into MO …. I literally know 100+ dudes that own across into MO…. Areas they don’t shoot does & some of them “too many”….. the amount of 5.5’s is staggeringly low vs iowa. I’ll say it how it is…. Like, no doubt in my mind, dudes on iowa side might have 10 mature bucks to the MO guys 1. Consistently across countless farms I know. I talked to a guy witn multiple hundreds to thousand acre tracts. Dude is mega loaded & has 7,200 m/l acres in N MO (i won’t name him & I don’t think he even goes on the internet so all good ) …. He had 5 fully mature bucks going into deer season. He’s down to 2. He was telling me about his best 2-4 year olds…. He had a 170’s 3.5…. Shot with crossbow on his fence. 75%+ of his best 2-4 year olds have been shot by neighbors with “all weapons”. Clearly rifles is the big one in MO. U get to Nov 20 (when I talk to him) & 75% of his up & comers are killed. That’s with huge land & infinate food plots. I asked if this was normal? “Bit worse than normal yes”. He had a year where he had 10+ mature bucks on all these farms in past. He’s beyond frustrated. I talk to COUNTLESS dudes just like this, just with less land & less resources. A few exceptions yes. But overall - in MO or mi or Wi or MN or u name it…. Vast majority of best 2-4 year olds killed every year. Plenty of does. So- what does that tell us??? Guys are out to fill their tag with whatever “highest scoring buck they can” & for many of these hunters- age is not an issue. The regulations allow this. Months with crossbows. Guns when deer are running wild. These examples are the NORM across country. The only exceptions are: states that have great regs, neighborhoods that self regulate, areas where hunters have quit or no hunting parcels exist. Mature bucks in other states are the exception. Young best genetic bucks being shot- a broken record that happens across the country 4 Frigin months out of the year!!!!!!! Anyone here remember when deer hunters used to go out for “a week”? Or “couple weeks of archery & 5 days of gun”? Stuff like that. Now we bumped it up to 4+ months of season & with crossbows - it’s getting close to saying “4 months of gun season”. & we wonder why guys are frustrated or locking ground up at alarming rates. We all know many folks that “hope half the hunters quit”. & I understand why. It just doesn’t need to happen, totally avoidable & better solutions by far. It’ll happen though at this rate & there will be bigger bucks because of it.

Last…. The thing we can’t change & why regulations are PARAMOUNT!!!!! Regs define all!!!!….. there’s GIVERS & TAKERS in hunting & every area of life!!!! When 80% of guys are TAKERS!!!!! ……. Why our regulations are the only thing keeping quality up!!!!!
Sorry on the rant.