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DBLTREE ROTATION

smithhunter1975 said:
I am interested in responses to this as well. I like the steps that Sure Shot laid out and curious if others agree with those steps. I am halfway through my first year of trying this as well. I already frost seeded clover into my 1/2 that is brassicas, sounds like I need to do some oats as well.
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Oats are not necessary. They just act as a nurse crop. I have done it with and without oats and cant say that I notice a difference either way. Also if you are establishing a new plot then you will most likely have a weed issue and need to spray which will most likely kill the oats anyways.
 
The reason I questioned the peas is I've done peas for several years, but they never amount to anything. I'm assuming it's because they get eaten but can't confirm. When I've done them, I've mixed them in with the brassicas and planted them late July. I can find some pea plants on my plot, but they are always sparce and small. My plots are usually pretty small 1/2 acre or less, so that doesn't help with them getting eaten.

If the answer is I should just leave out the peas, that's fine. I was just wanting to make sure I shouldn't be doing something different to get better pea results.

I am broadcasting them on bare dirt and then dragging a harrow behind the 4wlr after. Maybe my issue is I'm not getting them in a good enough seed bed?

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Regarding peas in a mix...I have literally watched deer graze the pea plants FIRST, over everything else in the plot. I have had them close, say 5 yards or less, and used my binos to REALLY WATCH them and by dog, they will carefully nibble every pea, even though they will readily return at later times to vacuum up whatever else is present.

(BTW, I have seen them do the same thing in a brassica field, only there, they will go for the radishes first over the turnips, etc.)

I would be curious to see if they would prefer white oak acorns OR peas, but I can't think of any other food choices that would rate over these two. My guess is that you are getting peas to grow, but then they are consumed quick like a bunny.
 
Ya- peas get pummeled. & yes, they need ideally >.5” deep. Think of them like soybeans…. If a guy planted 1/2 acre of soybeans alone in a plot with cover around it…. Would be eaten to dirt. Peas do well in the Dbltree cereal rye mix. Since there’s so much other browse. Peas need at least 50 lbs to the acre. Ideally a bit more…. If it’s part of a mix & they do get wiped out- oh well. Other things that still keep growing & there’s still value to that. But ya, a bit bigger plot or a bit higher seeding rate cant hurt.
I doubt peas do much in brassicas but I’ve never tried it. Hmmmmm.

OATS IN SPRING…. Agree with Tmayer.. Id do em if u have bad weed pressure & if anyone worked the soil (which i really never do unless I’m trying to convert sod to a plot. If it’s in rotation- no need to tearing up soil too. Frost seeding clearly needs no oats & one of best ways to go RIGHT NOW. If going into dead brassicas- seed HEAVY on clovers!! Should have a nice carpet with little weed pressure that can be managed with mowing &/or herbicides.
 
Sligh1 said:
Here’s dbltree’s condensed instructions….
I believe the update he would make to this is: once the soil is corrected, far less fertilizer is needed. Maybe only some lime. Wanted to have this in one spot.


Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice, Kopu II, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or crimson and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot...we use 50# each rye, oats and peas along with radish and clover seed all planted in half of each feeding area

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 50-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Frostmaster Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre

Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28 but for best results soil test and add only what is necessary.

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year
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I wanted to understand this a bit better since there's alot of details here. So should I do this? Frost seed clovers and oats in each plot and then in July kill off 90% of clover and plant 45% in peas,oats and rye and the other45% in brassicas? Then rotate the grains and peas with the brassicas every other year? Frost seed annual and biannual clovers over grain and brassica plots every spring to get soil right. All I've been doing so far is clover and chicory Frost seeded in spring on all of plots,disc it under and then rye on one half and brassicas on other side then Frost seed clovers in spring again and repeat
 
dreambig@84 said:
I wanted to understand this a bit better since there's alot of details here. So should I do this? Frost seed clovers and oats in each plot and then in July kill off 90% of clover and plant 45% in peas,oats and rye and the other45% in brassicas? Then rotate the grains and peas with the brassicas every other year? Frost seed annual and biannual clovers over grain and brassica plots every spring to get soil right. All I've been doing so far is clover and chicory Frost seeded in spring on all of plots,disc it under and then rye on one half and brassicas on other side then Frost seed clovers in spring again and repeat
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Your overthinking this. Dbltree put percentage numbers out there as an idea not a guideline. You can make the plot into anything you like. You'll want to get your red/white perennial clover frost seeded ASAP. Then you can plant some annual clovers(crimson, balsana, etc) once frost is out of the real of possibility. Then in early Aug you will terminate and till under however much of the annual clovers you want to turn into brassicas and plant those. Then in early Sept youll want to do the rest in the cereal grain mix.

By adding the clover into the Cereal grain mix you are eliminating the need to plant annual clovers on the whole plot year after year. You will just plant them where the cereal grains will be going that year.
 
I am no artist
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ok so here's a plot:

-The clover was established in spring with a combo of red/white clovers frost seeded around now.

-Then in late April to early may(depending on temps) The rest of the plot was seeded to crimson clover and oats.

-The clover was taken care of the same way across the entire plot all summer long

-Then in mid/late July half(or whatever size you want) of the plot was terminate with herbicide.

-Then in early Aug the terminated portion was planted to brassicas by whatever means you have.

-Then in late Aug the other half was terminated

-Then in early Sept the now terminate portion was planted to Oats, rye, CLOVER, radishes(peas, although I choose to leave them out)

-Then you hunt over it and shoot booners(guaranteed)

Then the following spring:

-The area that was brassicas you plant to annual clover/oats( oats are NOT necessary)

-Then you terminate the perennial clover that was in the grain area and plant your brassicas

-The you terminate you annual clover and plant your cereal grains

*****You can also frost seed a perennial clover into your formally planted brassicas if you wish****
(I do not do this because the annuals grow far more vigorously and provide more Units of N)(Personal Preference)

Then you start the process all over again. This keeps clover on your farm year around. And food readily available at all times.

You can change the timing depending on your location but the timing I listed is solely what I try to shoot for. You can make any sort of design or shapes with this plot design. The goal is to have deer feeding in the same location everyday of the year depending on what's available at that time. I hope this helps!
 
dreambig@84 said:
I wanted to understand this a bit better since there's alot of details here. So should I do this? Frost seed clovers and oats in each plot and then in July kill off 90% of clover and plant 45% in peas,oats and rye and the other45% in brassicas? Then rotate the grains and peas with the brassicas every other year? Frost seed annual and biannual clovers over grain and brassica plots every spring to get soil right. All I've been doing so far is clover and chicory Frost seeded in spring on all of plots,disc it under and then rye on one half and brassicas on other side then Frost seed clovers in spring again and repeat
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Tmayer13 said:
Your overthinking this. Dbltree put percentage numbers out there as an idea not a guideline. You can make the plot into anything you like. You'll want to get your red/white perennial clover frost seeded ASAP. Then you can plant some annual clovers(crimson, balsana, etc) once frost is out of the real of possibility. Then in early Aug you will terminate and till under however much of the annual clovers you want to turn into brassicas and plant those. Then in early Sept youll want to do the rest in the cereal grain mix.

By adding the clover into the Cereal grain mix you are eliminating the need to plant annual clovers on the whole plot year after year. You will just plant them where the cereal grains will be going that year.
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Thanks. I tend to overthink everything in life lol. Thanks for the assistance
 
Tmayer13 said:
I am no artist
b2f8f727ae13b0f443789972e8be124e.jpg
87808ec35c6df685efec020f70db83cc.jpg


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THIS!!!!!!! ^^^^^^^ !!!!!! Somehow I missed this but this is it!!! Any variation…. Ratios, how it’s rotated each year & the 3 definitive sections - spot on!!!!!
 
With the lack of rain coming through central Iowa this year, my Brassicas plots that are on the North side of a tree line may be able to make it through this dry patch. The ones on the south Big No! 3 year in a row this has happen.
I have in past years when this happen put Winter Rye mix in those areas.
Wondering if anyone has any other ideas of to add or a different mix in there.
 
iowathumper said:
With the lack of rain coming through central Iowa this year, my Brassicas plots that are on the North side of a tree line may be able to make it through this dry patch. The ones on the south Big No! 3 year in a row this has happen.
I have in past years when this happen put Winter Rye mix in those areas.
Wondering if anyone has any other ideas of to add or a different mix in there.
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The original Dbletree mix of rye, oats, peas, radishes and red clover is a great backup plan to any failed straight brassica planting.
 
Here’s a spot where the brassicas were junk. & a spot where it was a bit of a waterway. I seeded to the Dbltree mix. Very short vid….
 
drilled in 4 days ago. Clearly zero rain. Obviously no till & the soil organic matter has gotten better over the years. If u have been outside around 6-7am - u see how much dew is out. Crazy. Things are drenched. I’m guessing one day of dew - went down in furrows and bam! It’s up. I spotted everything in the mix germinated!!!! Who needs rain?!?! This mix doesn’t. ;)
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