You are not wrong there. SNAP is 80% of the farm bill. That's insane!
Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory
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I am 100% on the population front. As I have mentioned that aligns with OP topic. If we concede that the population is going to stay around 450k then unfortunately yes we will have to TRY to regulate some changes. GOOD LUCK getting any to fly because we are the minority. The other 20 topics combined would not even touch the impact of population increase. How can I say this, name me two of those topics not allowed in any state doing better in trophy number that they don’t allow. Keep in mind some offer baiting which Iowa does not. Most of those topics were allowed when Iowa was at its best. I’m just not big on spending capital in time and money chasing changes that IMO will not likely make a noticeable impact to the majority of us.
To say they wouldn't have a huge impact.... no problem. To say the most important thing is population.... no problem.
I only have a problem with saying having more does is the ONLY thing that will impact anything. We can agree or disagree on how certain things move the needle but there is no such thing as ZERO impact.
We on the same page that all things contribute to the demise but one has had significantly more impact. My entire premise goes to how do we get Iowa back to producing the number of trophy deer it used to and that is population, we simply won’t get back to that level of output with 450K deer. OP implied the question how we get back to the good ole days. We can chase the 20 cuts but I still have yet to hear any answers as to why Iowa has an issue with 2-3 any sex tags, cell cams, straight walls, you pic your poison, yet other states have access to the same or more “cuts” and are improving quality… I worry that many are getting caught up chasing cuts when we are not putting the DNR on notice that they are failing Iowa deer hunters and need to get back to managing.
hillrunner
PMA Member
Which of those states is better than Iowa?
Matthewfox_45
Well-Known Member
My freezer full of deer meat begs to differ. Here’s my season goals in order of priority every year
1. Hunt as much as I can
2.Shoot a doe or two for the freezer
3.Shoot a mature buck
I broke a 6 or 7 year buckless streak in 2022, didn’t shoot another buck until this year. My family doesn’t buy beef.
See the original post on this thread to see what I am referring to. People should quit reading word for word and be able to see context. The chart suggests that several states are not only better than Iowa but Iowa is “decreasing”. The argument and questions have not been who is better than Iowa but instead why has quality deer hunting in Iowa gone down hill. After 42 pages I think we can agree that Iowa is not what it was and several of us would like to see it again. Just because we are still the best does not mean we should be happy. The clear conversation here has not been why other states are better than Iowa, it has been how has Iowa come so far off of its prime. At current pace of all “cuts” combined Iowa is CLEARLY not what it used to be, head and shoulders above the rest. In my opinion I hunt two other states that are currently better than Iowa from what I have to hunt. I would not even considered saying that 20 years ago.
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Bucksnbears
Well-Known Member
IIt dawned on me today listening to Jace in that podcast that in 42 pages I don’t think anyone has blamed CWD for Iowa’s decline .
Not that I do, but a lot of people around the country would love to put the blame on that and that’s the only thing that we haven’t disagreed on yet.
Not that I do, but a lot of people around the country would love to put the blame on that and that’s the only thing that we haven’t disagreed on yet.
I thought by the time it kills a whitetail deer they are usually dead from hunters or natural causes?
One thing I've been thinking throughout this thread is the major disconnect of some of the people on this thread to the average hunter. The stat from the other thread summarizes my point the best: 40% of Iowa bucks shot are 1.5 year olds. There's a lot of talk on here about 4 year olds getting shot when they should have been passed. I'd argue 80%, probably more like 90%, can't even tell the difference between a 3.5 and 4.5 year old. The theme here is you shouldn't shoot a deer unless it 7.5 years old, and if it's a 4 year old 170, you definitely shouldn't shoot it. I've hunted Iowa for almost 25 years and I've never gotten into the 170's. Most of the hunters I know haven't either. I don't disagree that hunting isn't as good as it used to be, but some of the expectations here are just so far away from the average hunter's reality.
I agree population is the biggest change/challenge, but I'd like to throw out another thought on what else is not helping the giant numbers - more people are shooting older deer. Take me for example - I started out gun hunting, got into bowhunting, started having success, and started increasing my goals. People are raising their standards, and I think that's really taken off in the last 10-15 years. A lot more are passing 2.5 year olds and even 3.5 year olds- maybe they don't know the age, but they know their antlers are big enough for them. Most deer don't make it to 4+ years old, and I'd say a higher percentage of them are getting shot now than before, so fewer percentage are making it past 5.5 years old. I used to hold out for 130s, then 140s, now I want 150s. I'd say the percentage of 4 and 5 year olds not making it is a lot higher now than it was in the past which makes it really hard for a buck to get older. Bowhunters are holding out for older deer, then gun hunters mow down the younger ones.
Side note - if 40% of the bucks shot are 1.5 year old, then I'd say those bucks are getting shot because they're the first buck the hunter saw. In other words, going to a 1 buck state isn't going to impact that 40%.
I agree population is the biggest change/challenge, but I'd like to throw out another thought on what else is not helping the giant numbers - more people are shooting older deer. Take me for example - I started out gun hunting, got into bowhunting, started having success, and started increasing my goals. People are raising their standards, and I think that's really taken off in the last 10-15 years. A lot more are passing 2.5 year olds and even 3.5 year olds- maybe they don't know the age, but they know their antlers are big enough for them. Most deer don't make it to 4+ years old, and I'd say a higher percentage of them are getting shot now than before, so fewer percentage are making it past 5.5 years old. I used to hold out for 130s, then 140s, now I want 150s. I'd say the percentage of 4 and 5 year olds not making it is a lot higher now than it was in the past which makes it really hard for a buck to get older. Bowhunters are holding out for older deer, then gun hunters mow down the younger ones.
Side note - if 40% of the bucks shot are 1.5 year old, then I'd say those bucks are getting shot because they're the first buck the hunter saw. In other words, going to a 1 buck state isn't going to impact that 40%.
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Daver
PMA Member
IMO, I think you are, in the main, correct with your observations above. I do disagree though that "the percentage of 4 and 5 year olds is higher now than in the past...". For our area, and multiple other areas that I know of, there are now significantly fewer older bucks alive than even just a couple/few years ago, FWIW. But...keep in mind that the genesis of this thread was "Giant deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory". So, the thoughts expressed here are pretty on point to that topic, IMO and I think, reflective of so many guys experiencing this drop off AND being quite concerned about it.
Speaking as someone who has commented about "...4 year olds getting shot that should have been passed. ..." I do realize that the notion of an area being under such "management" isn't the reality everywhere in the state, for sure. But...it was pretty much a reality for the past 20 years or so in some areas...so those of us that experienced that "boom" are now lamenting the disappearance of the same. Again, FWIW.
Your last comment makes me think of this question...Do the proponents of a One Buck Limit (OBL) envision that any given hunter will NOT be able to then take down multiple bucks while party hunting during a gun season, or not? I don't know the answer to that...but it could be a key differentiator. I would definitely agree that the vast majority of young bucks that are harvested nowadays are by young, or new, hunters OR by a random lucky dude on a gun season deer drive. Freezer fillers, if you will. I too have been in various meat lockers after a couple of days of gun season and there are often A LOT of young bucks there then. It really isn't something that I have seen during other seasons, FWIW. (Are there any stats as to WHEN the bucks are harvested each year?)
My understanding is that multiple bucks being harvested by any one hunter, while party hunting, which is legal, are NOT "showing up in the box score", because they are being reported by the tag holder, not necessarily by the shooter. I suspect that there are significantly more "multiple buck harvesters" people "hidden" by this wrinkle each year than there are dudes who are shooting two or more bucks per year and reporting their own deer on their own tags. Just my opinion on that...I know of no data that supports that. But over many years...I have witnessed that (multiple bucks via party hunting) than guys taking two or more deer per year on discreet tags.
I meant the percentage of 4 and 5 year olds getting shot is higher now, not that there are more of them. I meant more are getting shot making far fewer 6 and 7 year olds.
I used to party hunt years ago. The party started with my Dad, myself, and 1 uncle in 1996. My brother joined when he was old enough. After that everyone brought a friend and another uncle joined in. Pretty much continued that way until 2011 when we were at 20+ people the year my oldest was born. That year, my dad was also killed in a car accident. My brother and I took our one friend and made a 4 person group and got permission on new ground. To give you an idea of who was killing all the deer and letting everyone else take them, the 4 of us killed 14 deer in less than two days. The entire rest of the old group hunted the entire season and killed 3 deer. It was not due to different deer numbers in different areas. It was due to shooting and hunting ability. This was all back when there were too many deer in the areas we hunted. Now, there are so few deer in the areas we hunt, I don't shoot does unless someone invites me into an area that actually has enough does to take a couple.
Based on my experience hunting with my family group and a couple other groups over the years, a few guys are filling all the tags for the group. Also, most of these groups are full of or run by farmers that hate deer. If it's brown, its down, or you are out of the group.
If my experience is consistent with reality, you could save a lot of deer by making people shoot their own deer.
Daver
PMA Member
That ^^ sounds about right to me in terms of what I think happens a lot of places. Although I have not hunted in a group in years, that's about the way it went in the group(s) that I was involved in. I still don't know though if the one buck proponents are envisioning it applying to party hunting too...or just discreet, individual tags. I am truly curious about that.
PS. I am sorry to hear that about your dad.
After following this thread for the past 42+ pages it has become obvious that there is very little hope for Iowa to produce giant deer “Organically” meaning on the average random farm in Iowa. I truly believe that going to one Buck would be the quickest path to improving the Quality on more of a State wide level. The general consensus is increasing the population will magically fix the lack of mature bucks on the landscape. The problem is while this is being discussed the late rifle seasons is pounding the remaining doe population as well as shed bucks and button bucks. There have been groups almost daily driving the public land around Lake Rathbun. In reading all these posts it is clear people will manipulate data to support their opinions. Our Pheasant and Quail populations are down 50%+ from 20 years ago yet the seasons and limits remain the same.
Our Deer Seasons and Buck limits remain the same while the technology has increased 10 fold. The solution that I am taking is to manage and control as much land as possible myself thru buying,Leasing and improving this habitat to the best of my ability’s.
Our Deer Seasons and Buck limits remain the same while the technology has increased 10 fold. The solution that I am taking is to manage and control as much land as possible myself thru buying,Leasing and improving this habitat to the best of my ability’s.
tall@wide
PMA Member
Agreed. You have to buy up as much as you can and get friends to buy in the same neighborhood. You really need to tie up 1000s of acres to have a chance. That is the only consistent chance of hunting mature deer until change takes place (which will probably not happen). I have a small farm (40 acres) in S Central, and I had some great 3-4 year olds on it during bow season. I didn't shoot them and during the gun seasons they got wiped out. I think that is a pretty typical scenario in most locations, and the same process repeats the next year and so on.
scottonbuck
Well-Known Member
Im also in Jefferson county where abouts is your farm located?
jkratz5
Well-Known Member
Yep, this is a big problem when trying to push deer into the mature status. No tag sharing, 1 buck and appropriate doe management has to be on the landscape to get back to where it was