Greetings and a ?
- Thread starter Kat
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stillhunter
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If you would like to get some more opinions, I have found that Connecticut Valley Arms has an internet forum with some very experienced muzzleloaders that are always willing to help. The forum is at: http://www.cva.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi
There are people on that site who shoot just about every type of muzzleloader you can think of. If price is of any concern, consider looking at the CVA magbolt 150 selling at bassproshops. I bought this rifle at Christmas for $149.99 (stainless steel, mossy oak break up, .50) and I have been very happy with its performance. The lower price allowed me the flexibility to immediately place a nice scope on the gun. Don't forget that you will need cleaning supplies, bullets, powder, etc to get started.
Regardless of what you choose, get ready to have some fun. Muzzleloading is a blast, literally.
There are people on that site who shoot just about every type of muzzleloader you can think of. If price is of any concern, consider looking at the CVA magbolt 150 selling at bassproshops. I bought this rifle at Christmas for $149.99 (stainless steel, mossy oak break up, .50) and I have been very happy with its performance. The lower price allowed me the flexibility to immediately place a nice scope on the gun. Don't forget that you will need cleaning supplies, bullets, powder, etc to get started.
Regardless of what you choose, get ready to have some fun. Muzzleloading is a blast, literally.
biggest buck
Active Member
My father and I are planning on purchasing a ML soon and were wondering if anyone knew anything about the new Winchester. Is it as good as a Remington 700, Knight Master Hunter Disc Extreme or Thompson Center Black Diamond XR? Which one of these would be the better gun to buy. How does it compare to others. The one I am refering to is the one on pg. 348 in the new Cabelas spring catalog. This looks and sounds like a good one but we don't really know too much about ML's. Another question I have is about the action, is the bolt action better and easier to use than the other kind. Please help us out!!!
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sludge
Guest
Kitty, a friend of mine just bought a Savage, the one that shoots smokless powder so you don't have to clean EVERY freaking time you fire it. He loves it.
I saw the results of his gun from photos taken on a hog hunt this past weekend. NICE!
I don't know the ballistics or any of that crap. That stuff makes my eyes fog over more than listening to Harkin speak. (If that is possible)Any-who, you may want to look into those as well. But, it the good Lord wanted us to keep using black powder, he wouldn't have invented a 12 shot holder for my 1100! ML is kinda like shampooing your hair. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I saw the results of his gun from photos taken on a hog hunt this past weekend. NICE!
I don't know the ballistics or any of that crap. That stuff makes my eyes fog over more than listening to Harkin speak. (If that is possible)Any-who, you may want to look into those as well. But, it the good Lord wanted us to keep using black powder, he wouldn't have invented a 12 shot holder for my 1100! ML is kinda like shampooing your hair. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Guest
Guest
Sludge, speaking of cleaning, I just read last night in a mag, and then I checked this morning on the internet,Hodgdon is making a new powder for ML's. It's called Triple Seven.
http://www.hodgdon.com/products/tripleseven/index.htm
The article said how much easier cleaning was.
http://www.hodgdon.com/products/tripleseven/index.htm
The article said how much easier cleaning was.
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couesbro
Guest
Kat,
Sludge's response regarding the extended magazine on the Remington 1100 got me to thinking about your soon-to-be better half. Does he have any hunting and or shooting experience? Will he be hunting in one of the muzzle loader seasons or in the shotgun seasons? Will he be hunting from a stand or in a group of several hunters? If he is hunting in the shotgun season and uses methods similar to what are used around here, groups of 10 to 20 hunters that drive and block sections of timber, he may become very frustrated with only one shot at several deer passing him at Mach VII. If he is hunting the muzzle loader seasons the pressure on deer is not as intense and he will more likely have a shot at a standing undisturbed deer and will have a better chance at making a clean one shot kill which I think is very important in making a lasting good impression on a new hunter. I can think of nothing that would turn off a new hunter more than having to trail a gut shot deer or broken legged deer and then applying more shots to finish them. Especially when they have to go through all of the steps neccessary to get off a 2nd shot with a ml.
While I'm on this ml subject, I recommend getting a good 4x scope on the muzzle loader or a variable 3x-9x. It helps with making that one shot count.
Let us know what you choose.
"One gun, one load, one shot, one kill."
"Speed is fine, but accuracy is final."
Sludge's response regarding the extended magazine on the Remington 1100 got me to thinking about your soon-to-be better half. Does he have any hunting and or shooting experience? Will he be hunting in one of the muzzle loader seasons or in the shotgun seasons? Will he be hunting from a stand or in a group of several hunters? If he is hunting in the shotgun season and uses methods similar to what are used around here, groups of 10 to 20 hunters that drive and block sections of timber, he may become very frustrated with only one shot at several deer passing him at Mach VII. If he is hunting the muzzle loader seasons the pressure on deer is not as intense and he will more likely have a shot at a standing undisturbed deer and will have a better chance at making a clean one shot kill which I think is very important in making a lasting good impression on a new hunter. I can think of nothing that would turn off a new hunter more than having to trail a gut shot deer or broken legged deer and then applying more shots to finish them. Especially when they have to go through all of the steps neccessary to get off a 2nd shot with a ml.
While I'm on this ml subject, I recommend getting a good 4x scope on the muzzle loader or a variable 3x-9x. It helps with making that one shot count.
Let us know what you choose.
"One gun, one load, one shot, one kill."
"Speed is fine, but accuracy is final."
C
couesbro
Guest
Biggest Buck,
I don't have any experience with the new Winchester ml, but I do have with the other 3 you mentioned. As far as easier to use I don't care for the bolt action when a scope is mounted on it as it makes it more difficult to cap. But, if you place your first shot right you should have plenty of time left to reload, because what you where shooting at will already be dead.
I would recommend that you and your dad get identical weapons so that you can use the same componets. I think all of them are fine. I have owned and still own Model 70 Winchesters in centerfire calibers and they are fine weapons.
Good Luck! and welcome to the ML world.
I don't have any experience with the new Winchester ml, but I do have with the other 3 you mentioned. As far as easier to use I don't care for the bolt action when a scope is mounted on it as it makes it more difficult to cap. But, if you place your first shot right you should have plenty of time left to reload, because what you where shooting at will already be dead.
I would recommend that you and your dad get identical weapons so that you can use the same componets. I think all of them are fine. I have owned and still own Model 70 Winchesters in centerfire calibers and they are fine weapons.
Good Luck! and welcome to the ML world.
T
thegeneral
Guest
hey nyshedder, what's the price on a Thompson Center Encore? do you think they're better than Knight? just curious, i'm in the market. congrats on your buck.
B
BuckHusker
Guest
Boy this is good. I personally have a Traditions Mag 209, bought at the Big "C" for $109, on close out. It shoots 300 gr. XTP's in a 2" group at 100 with 120 gr. of RX. Not the highest quality item you would ever want to see, but functional and inexpensive. If top of the line were what I wanted, I'd probably go with the TC Encore. That is one nice piece, which ahs other features such as interchangeable barrels etc. etc. Then if cleaning was my major concern, I'd look at the Savage ML10II and shoot smokeless. Just be sure and follow the load data, and don't try Smokeless in any other muzzleloader they won't take it. The ML 10 is really breaking new ground in a lot of ways. They typically are getting 200-300 fps more than pellets, and with a scope and practice will drive tacks at about any range you want.
C
couesbro
Guest
Hey Smokepole,
Good point. A bench rest group on the target range is different than a shot at a whitetail buck in the woods. Many more factors involved in the woods shot. Time of day, target that may move, wind, low light, brush or twigs in bullet path, additional animals that could be targets, the human factor, we all have blood pulsing through our veins, adrenilin rushes and occasionally we have to breathe, range estimation, etc.
I found this interesting. The Isaac Walton league down here had a meat shoot for muzzle loaders. 4 good 'ole boys from the round ball club went to the shoot even though they were vastly outnumbered and competed against the in-line boys. At the end of the day the good 'ole boys with their old fashioned round ball rifles, iron sights, real black powder and patched round balls won all of the turkeys, hams, and all but one of the chickens. I think the fact that they shoot in competion every month and practise all the time had more to do with them hitting the mark than what make of rifle they used.
So, get a rifle and then practise, practise, practise.
"Beware of the man who only owns one gun, he most likely knows how to use it."
Good point. A bench rest group on the target range is different than a shot at a whitetail buck in the woods. Many more factors involved in the woods shot. Time of day, target that may move, wind, low light, brush or twigs in bullet path, additional animals that could be targets, the human factor, we all have blood pulsing through our veins, adrenilin rushes and occasionally we have to breathe, range estimation, etc.
I found this interesting. The Isaac Walton league down here had a meat shoot for muzzle loaders. 4 good 'ole boys from the round ball club went to the shoot even though they were vastly outnumbered and competed against the in-line boys. At the end of the day the good 'ole boys with their old fashioned round ball rifles, iron sights, real black powder and patched round balls won all of the turkeys, hams, and all but one of the chickens. I think the fact that they shoot in competion every month and practise all the time had more to do with them hitting the mark than what make of rifle they used.
So, get a rifle and then practise, practise, practise.
"Beware of the man who only owns one gun, he most likely knows how to use it."
Hey Smokepole i'm talking modern day muzzleloading rifle, testing was done on this gun and experts were shooting 3/4" groups at 200 yds using 187 grain hornady 44 cal sabots and 150 grains of pyrodex pellets were talking new out of the box with a decent scope!!! And no you do not have to lap the barrel! Hey couesbro how many people do you know that can shoot a running deer in the woods accurately with any weapon? I do not know many, and yes I can but I practice and I shoot the best weapon available we owe it to the mighty whitetail to maximize our efficiency with our firearms no matter what it is!!! How many jokers are still out there hunting deer lobbing slugs out of an old Remington smooth bore with a plain barrel on it, wounding one deer after the other!! These are the guys who are giving the sport a bad name!!! And what really gets my goat is they brag about the big one that they wounded and almost got! As far as I am concerned they shouldn't be able to carry such a weapon in the woods.Now how about that Encore!
This one is for thegeneral. Thanks for the reply, the Encore will set you back about 550.00 big ones, a small price to pay for a superior firearm! You can shoot any powder out of them, triple fff, pyrodex, cleanburn, up to 150 grains of pyrodex powder. But like all firearms do your homework before you head off into the field!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!
Are the results of this test on the internet anywhere? It would be interesting to see it. I read one a couple of weeks back where they tried different calibers, loads and bullets and they were not able to be consistent at 150 yds. I think that it would be hard to get a 3/4" group with a centerfire rifle!
C
condor
Guest
Hello,
Both are fine guns -- but that's a heck of a deal on the Bighorn!
I've shot a Bighorn for 3 years now and I love the thing; it's never let me down. It is a very solid, well built gun, tough as nails -- you should see the places I drag mine through when hunting! My Bighorn is very accurate. It will shoot 1.5 inch groups all day long at 100 yards.
My friend shot a Thompson Center Encore for the past couple of seasons and he was never quite happy with it, accuracy or otherwise. Sure was a pretty gun, though, but he sold it.
I don't see how anyone would be disappointed with getting a Bighorn for $199. I'm tempted and I already have one!
Good luck with your decision. Either rifle is a fine choice!
Condor...
Both are fine guns -- but that's a heck of a deal on the Bighorn!
I've shot a Bighorn for 3 years now and I love the thing; it's never let me down. It is a very solid, well built gun, tough as nails -- you should see the places I drag mine through when hunting! My Bighorn is very accurate. It will shoot 1.5 inch groups all day long at 100 yards.
My friend shot a Thompson Center Encore for the past couple of seasons and he was never quite happy with it, accuracy or otherwise. Sure was a pretty gun, though, but he sold it.
I don't see how anyone would be disappointed with getting a Bighorn for $199. I'm tempted and I already have one!
Good luck with your decision. Either rifle is a fine choice!
Condor...
C
couesbro
Guest
nyshedder,
I think we are on the same page. If you read my first post I said that the best is never too good. I'm sure the Encore is one of the best, but the question was between a $200 and a $400 rifle and my basic point is that most of the rifles on todays market will do the job and that it is the operator that is the biggest factor, hence the reference to practise. Also, I think a lot of newbies read this site and do not post, some of them are of limited means and I did not want them to think that they have to spend $600 in order to be able to ml hunt. If they have unlimited funds more power to them, they can buy the best and be happy.
I think you have brought up some good points about ml accuracy, but it is nothing new. Read "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle" by Ned Roberts. Small groups at long distances were being shot 130 years ago with ml rifles.
As far as shooting running deer, I know some that are good, some that are lucky, and some that are good and lucky but not every time.
I am not passing judgement on any hunters. I know a little about human nature and guys that will look you in the eye over the campfire and declare that they always use a rest and shoot at standing ______ fill in the blank with deer, pronghorn, elk, bighorn, etc. will the next day start blazing away off hand at a running animal. I always felt relived when I asked someone I was taking out what hunting they had done in the past and they replied squirrel hunting with a .22 or prairie dogs and wood chucks. Normally these guys could shoot and I did't have to spend hours tracking wounded game.
The drive and block method is popular here in southern Iowa during shotgun season. Many of these guys are the farmers that have been feeding the deer all year and just use their smooth bore shotgun for the 2 or 3 days that they have availble to hunt and when the 12 ga. slug connects it is effective. It is not my cup of tea, but it is a free country and it is legal. I prefer bowhunting and using the special ml seasons.
When Kat asked for opinions she certainly got some! I think it is human nature to rationalize one's choices on equipment. Every one says to them self, "Self you are a logical and intelligent human being, you shoot a _______ (fill in the blank with name of your rifle) therefore this rifle must be the best, 'cause you don't buy junk!" I think they are probably right.
I lurk in sporting goods shops and on different discussion boards on the internet and it amazes me the number of people that get so hung up on equipment like is Nikon a better camera than Canon, or is Mathews better than Hoyt and then the flame wars start.
I think this site is one of the most civil I have discovered. I hope I have not offended you as that is not my intention, many times typed words can be taken in the wrong way. And I hope that this thread has been beneficial to Kat and all of the other unknown lurkers out there.
These are just my opinions and worth exactly what you have paid for them!
I think we are on the same page. If you read my first post I said that the best is never too good. I'm sure the Encore is one of the best, but the question was between a $200 and a $400 rifle and my basic point is that most of the rifles on todays market will do the job and that it is the operator that is the biggest factor, hence the reference to practise. Also, I think a lot of newbies read this site and do not post, some of them are of limited means and I did not want them to think that they have to spend $600 in order to be able to ml hunt. If they have unlimited funds more power to them, they can buy the best and be happy.
I think you have brought up some good points about ml accuracy, but it is nothing new. Read "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle" by Ned Roberts. Small groups at long distances were being shot 130 years ago with ml rifles.
As far as shooting running deer, I know some that are good, some that are lucky, and some that are good and lucky but not every time.
I am not passing judgement on any hunters. I know a little about human nature and guys that will look you in the eye over the campfire and declare that they always use a rest and shoot at standing ______ fill in the blank with deer, pronghorn, elk, bighorn, etc. will the next day start blazing away off hand at a running animal. I always felt relived when I asked someone I was taking out what hunting they had done in the past and they replied squirrel hunting with a .22 or prairie dogs and wood chucks. Normally these guys could shoot and I did't have to spend hours tracking wounded game.
The drive and block method is popular here in southern Iowa during shotgun season. Many of these guys are the farmers that have been feeding the deer all year and just use their smooth bore shotgun for the 2 or 3 days that they have availble to hunt and when the 12 ga. slug connects it is effective. It is not my cup of tea, but it is a free country and it is legal. I prefer bowhunting and using the special ml seasons.
When Kat asked for opinions she certainly got some! I think it is human nature to rationalize one's choices on equipment. Every one says to them self, "Self you are a logical and intelligent human being, you shoot a _______ (fill in the blank with name of your rifle) therefore this rifle must be the best, 'cause you don't buy junk!" I think they are probably right.
I lurk in sporting goods shops and on different discussion boards on the internet and it amazes me the number of people that get so hung up on equipment like is Nikon a better camera than Canon, or is Mathews better than Hoyt and then the flame wars start.
I think this site is one of the most civil I have discovered. I hope I have not offended you as that is not my intention, many times typed words can be taken in the wrong way. And I hope that this thread has been beneficial to Kat and all of the other unknown lurkers out there.
These are just my opinions and worth exactly what you have paid for them!