So, I didn't "actually" mean a "VS" each other to the EXTREME context. starting this out with a little bit of a Controversial post & I don't think it's bad to have a little debate on here either 
I'll keep it civil & please do the same.
Here's where my post comes from & little context.... I spent a day with a close friend who is a "casual hunter". He's not a serious manager & he would say, he goes out hunting a few times a year for some "action" & "fun". His group does eat the meat but they would admit, they do it for the event as it would be cheaper & easier to buy meat from the store. Some of the guys eat the deer & some of them make sure others get the meat as they don't eat it. This group & several others he knows drop the meat off at lockers for HUSH program. "FUN, ACTION, TIME WITH FRIENDS, TRADITION, ETC" would be what many in the group explain the reasons they do this yearly event. Most in this group are just out for gun season with a few guys who do bowhunt as well. I felt this good friend & his group represented what a lot of groups are out there to do & why. Now, I talked to them about the "goods & bads" of what they do... Here's almost exactly some feedback I got....
-We try and shoot older bucks but it usually doesn't work out like that. Quite a few younger bucks & button bucks. Try and educate some of the guys but most of the time, we just realize it's not gonna work.
-Get sick of being stopped and getting into "tense situations". "YEARLY" either: someone crosses into where they aren't supposed to be (on accident) or the neighbors who want to "manage" seem to get into it with them for a variety of reasons... let's say some of those reasons are: The neighbor's are genuinely A$$holes. The neighbors do see some safety issues like wizzing bullets, etc. Some neighbors are burnt on tresspassing. Some don't like what the group is doing (right wrong or indifferent BUT - law is law & if it's not on your land, most would say "no place to talk"). Some just want to chat & be decent. It really seems to run the gammit & spectrum & I see good & bad folks on BOTH SIDES OF THIS.
-Access is worse every year. Pendulum is swinging where more & more landowners do not want gun pushes on their land.
-Land managers & stand hunters are uptight, too obsessed with antlers & some think they own the deer.
-Most of the guys we hunt with are ethical, safe & law abiding. We do get some new members who are not and they usually don't get invited back.
-We love it & have had a blast every year doing it. We'll continue to do it as long as there's access & deer to hunt.
-There's plenty of "stand hunters" who are slobs as well, bad shots, continually shoot young bucks even as experienced hunters, don't shoot does, etc.
My buddy owns a good bit of land & gets a lot of access. He also says he does get sick of babysitting & fighting & being the point of contact with every issue they have. I totally understand this part would not be fun to deal with.
The groups I know, most don't have interest in sitting or have a deep concern about management. Most I know think it's a bit too boring & not the experience they want to have.
OTHER SIDE:
OK.... So, I will openly admit, I would never allow pushes on my land & I won't do them. I'd be on the "other side of this discussion" - no doubt. With that said: I have done pushes in the past & had some fun doing them. As I've grown as a hunter & aged, I sure know my place is not to tell others how to hunt or what hunting is. Dividing hunters is not the goal or desire of this post either, just constructive thinking & some debate. I do respect the right to do what you want on your land. I won't allow drives on my land but I won't say a thing to my neighbor that does. I don't like gun pushing & all that BUT.... There's some perspective or big picture things I personally want to think about & I'm sure there's things I'm dead wrong about!!!! Here's what folks on "THIS SIDE OF THE POSITION" would say about pushing, the one week hunters, etc....
-There's few mature bucks out there and the gun hunters shoot a vast majority of younger bucks, making it a lot harder to find or have mature bucks around.
-Way too many deer get wounded in gun drives, running deer are the norm. Finding the dead deer after season is horrible.
-Shooting at running deer or fast paced- little room to judge age or make management decisions in those scenarios - or even pick out a button buck.
-"20 guys" that did pushes, if all 20 had sat in the evening, they likely would have gotten bigger/older bucks (or does) & more of them.
-Dangerous & recipe for trouble. Most I know who have been here for enough time know what it's like to hear a whizzing slug or have bullets hit close by or even seen an accident. Almost all guys I know have had to constantly deal with guys trespassing or "oops, I thought this was Jim Bobs land" & get rid of people often who are trespassing.
-A feeling that the reasons or simply ACTIONS of gun hunters express that they don't care about age structure, proper deer #'s, sex ratios, etc.
-As a land owner or manager, this is the time of year that's "Stressful" & can expect an ARRAY of problems, most of which of concern are the illegal problems.
-Land managers would take the position "if you held off on XYZ age class & only shot those above that.... You could have older deer to hunt EVERY SINGLE YEAR & everyone would be better off" "WIN/WIN FOR EVERYONE".
That's my lil tangent for tonight. What I think goes through both sets of hunters minds when I really try and understand each side. Some of us fit into both groups. LET'S BE CLEAR: we are BOTH HUNTERS & on the same side. How we view this issue: sure, we have a vast difference of opinion. I personally don't think either group is entirely right or entirely wrong. I also think there's bad apples in both sides of these groups or guys. I was going to say "kinda like Republicans and Democrats" (but we all know there's really no good Democrat! ) You get my point though.
Let's call a spade a spade here.... The landscape is shifting though. Gun drives will become less & less. Access is a big one & guys who want to keep it from happening on their land is another reason. BUT - is that good or bad???? I can argue that it's both good & bad!!!!! ...... Managers will have better ground, more deer & quality deer and more folks will be interested in hunting that land, the bordering land, etc - helps everyone. Lower access hurts the little guy who wants to get into hunting though. State land gets worse every year & on areas that "suck" - new hunters might just throw in the towel (yet, some of the reason areas "SUCK" is because they get blasted to heck). There's no black & white answer here. No magic bullet. It likely will work itself out with the access & land changing hands- for good or for bad. Is there any middle ground here where these two groups could better get along & see some common ground? I don't know.
My deep thoughts & long ramble for today. If you have any thoughts, love to hear em. Spirited debate - GREAT! Being a d-bag, not so much. I get it folks, two sides to both stories. sorry for the long rant. Fire off
I'll keep it civil & please do the same.Here's where my post comes from & little context.... I spent a day with a close friend who is a "casual hunter". He's not a serious manager & he would say, he goes out hunting a few times a year for some "action" & "fun". His group does eat the meat but they would admit, they do it for the event as it would be cheaper & easier to buy meat from the store. Some of the guys eat the deer & some of them make sure others get the meat as they don't eat it. This group & several others he knows drop the meat off at lockers for HUSH program. "FUN, ACTION, TIME WITH FRIENDS, TRADITION, ETC" would be what many in the group explain the reasons they do this yearly event. Most in this group are just out for gun season with a few guys who do bowhunt as well. I felt this good friend & his group represented what a lot of groups are out there to do & why. Now, I talked to them about the "goods & bads" of what they do... Here's almost exactly some feedback I got....
-We try and shoot older bucks but it usually doesn't work out like that. Quite a few younger bucks & button bucks. Try and educate some of the guys but most of the time, we just realize it's not gonna work.
-Get sick of being stopped and getting into "tense situations". "YEARLY" either: someone crosses into where they aren't supposed to be (on accident) or the neighbors who want to "manage" seem to get into it with them for a variety of reasons... let's say some of those reasons are: The neighbor's are genuinely A$$holes. The neighbors do see some safety issues like wizzing bullets, etc. Some neighbors are burnt on tresspassing. Some don't like what the group is doing (right wrong or indifferent BUT - law is law & if it's not on your land, most would say "no place to talk"). Some just want to chat & be decent. It really seems to run the gammit & spectrum & I see good & bad folks on BOTH SIDES OF THIS.
-Access is worse every year. Pendulum is swinging where more & more landowners do not want gun pushes on their land.
-Land managers & stand hunters are uptight, too obsessed with antlers & some think they own the deer.
-Most of the guys we hunt with are ethical, safe & law abiding. We do get some new members who are not and they usually don't get invited back.
-We love it & have had a blast every year doing it. We'll continue to do it as long as there's access & deer to hunt.
-There's plenty of "stand hunters" who are slobs as well, bad shots, continually shoot young bucks even as experienced hunters, don't shoot does, etc.
My buddy owns a good bit of land & gets a lot of access. He also says he does get sick of babysitting & fighting & being the point of contact with every issue they have. I totally understand this part would not be fun to deal with.
The groups I know, most don't have interest in sitting or have a deep concern about management. Most I know think it's a bit too boring & not the experience they want to have.
OTHER SIDE:
OK.... So, I will openly admit, I would never allow pushes on my land & I won't do them. I'd be on the "other side of this discussion" - no doubt. With that said: I have done pushes in the past & had some fun doing them. As I've grown as a hunter & aged, I sure know my place is not to tell others how to hunt or what hunting is. Dividing hunters is not the goal or desire of this post either, just constructive thinking & some debate. I do respect the right to do what you want on your land. I won't allow drives on my land but I won't say a thing to my neighbor that does. I don't like gun pushing & all that BUT.... There's some perspective or big picture things I personally want to think about & I'm sure there's things I'm dead wrong about!!!! Here's what folks on "THIS SIDE OF THE POSITION" would say about pushing, the one week hunters, etc....
-There's few mature bucks out there and the gun hunters shoot a vast majority of younger bucks, making it a lot harder to find or have mature bucks around.
-Way too many deer get wounded in gun drives, running deer are the norm. Finding the dead deer after season is horrible.
-Shooting at running deer or fast paced- little room to judge age or make management decisions in those scenarios - or even pick out a button buck.
-"20 guys" that did pushes, if all 20 had sat in the evening, they likely would have gotten bigger/older bucks (or does) & more of them.
-Dangerous & recipe for trouble. Most I know who have been here for enough time know what it's like to hear a whizzing slug or have bullets hit close by or even seen an accident. Almost all guys I know have had to constantly deal with guys trespassing or "oops, I thought this was Jim Bobs land" & get rid of people often who are trespassing.
-A feeling that the reasons or simply ACTIONS of gun hunters express that they don't care about age structure, proper deer #'s, sex ratios, etc.
-As a land owner or manager, this is the time of year that's "Stressful" & can expect an ARRAY of problems, most of which of concern are the illegal problems.
-Land managers would take the position "if you held off on XYZ age class & only shot those above that.... You could have older deer to hunt EVERY SINGLE YEAR & everyone would be better off" "WIN/WIN FOR EVERYONE".
That's my lil tangent for tonight. What I think goes through both sets of hunters minds when I really try and understand each side. Some of us fit into both groups. LET'S BE CLEAR: we are BOTH HUNTERS & on the same side. How we view this issue: sure, we have a vast difference of opinion. I personally don't think either group is entirely right or entirely wrong. I also think there's bad apples in both sides of these groups or guys. I was going to say "kinda like Republicans and Democrats" (but we all know there's really no good Democrat!
) You get my point though.Let's call a spade a spade here.... The landscape is shifting though. Gun drives will become less & less. Access is a big one & guys who want to keep it from happening on their land is another reason. BUT - is that good or bad???? I can argue that it's both good & bad!!!!! ...... Managers will have better ground, more deer & quality deer and more folks will be interested in hunting that land, the bordering land, etc - helps everyone. Lower access hurts the little guy who wants to get into hunting though. State land gets worse every year & on areas that "suck" - new hunters might just throw in the towel (yet, some of the reason areas "SUCK" is because they get blasted to heck). There's no black & white answer here. No magic bullet. It likely will work itself out with the access & land changing hands- for good or for bad. Is there any middle ground here where these two groups could better get along & see some common ground? I don't know.
My deep thoughts & long ramble for today. If you have any thoughts, love to hear em. Spirited debate - GREAT! Being a d-bag, not so much. I get it folks, two sides to both stories. sorry for the long rant. Fire off
