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Hf 2009

ironwood

ironwood

Active Member
Ok, let's hear your thoughts on the use of dogs as proposed in HF2009 below.

House File 2009 - Introduced




HOUSE FILE
BY WILLEMS

A BILL FOR

1 An Act allowing the use of a leashed dog to retrieve a wounded
2 deer and providing a penalty.
3 BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF IOWA:
TLSB 5061HH (8) 83
av/nh

PAG LIN



1 1 Section 1. NEW SECTION. 481A.56A Retrieval of wounded deer
1 2 by leashed dogs.
1 3 A person having a valid hunting license and a valid deer
1 4 hunting license who has wounded a deer while hunting may use
1 5 a dog to locate and retrieve the wounded animal. The hunter
1 6 or any person in the company of the hunter shall not possess a
1 7 firearm or bow while using a dog in this manner and shall have
1 8 control of the dog by leash at all times during the search.
1 9 The commission shall adopt rules pursuant to chapter 17A to
1 10 implement this section.
1 11 Sec. 2. Section 805.8B, subsection 3, paragraph c, Code
1 12 Supplement 2009, is amended to read as follows:
1 13 c. For violations of sections 481A.6, 481A.21, 481A.22,
1 14 481A.26, 481A.50, 481A.56, 481A.56A, 481A.60 through 481A.62,
1 15 481A.83, 481A.84, 481A.92, 481A.123, 481A.145, subsection 3,
1 16 sections 483A.7, 483A.8, 483A.23, 483A.24, and 483A.28, the
1 17 scheduled fine is twenty=five dollars.
1 18 EXPLANATION
1 19 This bill creates new Code section 481A.56A to allow a hunter
1 20 with a valid hunting license and deer hunting license who
1 21 wounds a deer while hunting to use a dog to locate and retrieve
1 22 the wounded animal. The hunter or any person in the company of
1 23 the hunter shall not possess a firearm or bow while using a dog
1 24 in this manner and shall have control of the dog by leash at
1 25 all times during the search. The natural resource commission
1 26 shall adopt rules pursuant to Code chapter 17A to implement
1 27 this provision.
1 28 A violation of the new provision is punishable by a scheduled
1 29 fine of $25.
LSB 5061HH (8) 83
 
We recently purchased a German Shepard pup. She's sharp as tacks. I was planning on teaching her to trail. I'd love to see this legislation pass.

I would like if better if there were a couple of changes. I don't like the wording about "carrying a firearm or bow" way too specific. Wording like that will have people looking to cheat in some fashion. A better wording would be: "The hunter or any person in the company of the hunter shall not possess any weapon including but not limited to firearms, cross bows or archery equipment while using a dog in this manner and shall have control of the dog by leash at all times during the search. " Look at the spotlighting law, you can't even have a knife in the vehicle, maybe even ban the carrying of knives while pursuing wounded deer with a dog (which I think the suggested phrasing above leaves the definition of weapon up to the CO).

Then, a $25 fine? I thought fines were supposed to be a deterrent? That is just laughable, hardly worth the court time to prosecute. Up it to a hundy min, IMO.
 
I'm all for it. The DNR already doesn't care if you do it even though they frown on it, so they might as well make it a law. One of my buddies friends has a $2000 dollar dog that is specifically trained in finding deer. I guess it can even determine if a deer is mortally wounded. Anyways he has talked to the COs in every county he has tracked deer in and everyone said its against the law, but keep it on a leash and don't carry a weapon. He actually calls them before he goes out and looks for the deer. I guess this dog has found many deer that hunters simply could not due to lack of blood. It's pretty impressive I guess.

Anything to help find wounded game I am for it as long as it makes sense. If there is only a $25 dollar fine right now for tracking a wounded deer with a dog on a leash without a weapon then what is stopping anyone from doing it. I would rather spend $25 and find the deer than let a deer go to waste.
 
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Maybe stiffen the fine up to $1000 and let the season determine the weapon brought along. There's gonna be times that having a weapon with is gonna make or break a recovery. I do think keeping the dog on a lead is a good idea. You definitely want this baby spelled out to the T or your gonna see some bozo's outright hunting deer with dogs.

Just some thoughts.....
 
River1 said:
Maybe stiffen the fine up to $1000 and let the season determine the weapon brought along. There's gonna be times that having a weapon with is gonna make or break a recovery. ..
Click to expand...


I think you're going to need to be able to bring a season specific weapon. What happens when you find the deer and its not dead but can't move or has coyotes eating it alive? You can track deer on your own with your weapon so why not with a dog?
 
tlambert said:
I think you're going to need to be able to bring a season specific weapon. What happens when you find the deer and its not dead but can't move or has coyotes eating it alive? You can track deer on your own with your weapon so why not with a dog?
Click to expand...

Allowing the person to carry a weapon opens the door wide for abuse, IMO. Granted, there will be abuse no matter how ironclad the wording is, but you want to make it easy for the CO to press charges and get a conviction. I can see an armed group surrounding a section of timber and the dog handler "just happened" to drop the dog lead.

I'd guess coyotes would be scared off by the human and the dog.

As to the deer not being dead yet, either it isn't mortally wounded or "when in doubt, back out". Yeah, not ideal maybe but it's the best a person can do currently and after an extended time leaving a deer, a dog to assist in recovery would be even a greater asset.
 
Isn't it already legal to walk a leashed dog in the timber if you desire? If the answer to the previous question is yes then why do we need a new law to tell us the same thing? Maybe I should ask it this way, is there anything about the current regs that makes it ILLEGAL? Sometimes I'm a fan of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ideology. Thoughts??
 
Iowabowtech said:
Isn't it already legal to walk a leashed dog in the timber if you desire? If the answer to the previous question is yes then why do we need a new law to tell us the same thing? Maybe I should ask it this way, is there anything about the current regs that makes it ILLEGAL? Sometimes I'm a fan of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ideology. Thoughts??
Click to expand...
It's legal to walk a dog but illegal to use a dog for deer related purposes.

DNR regs: Prohibited Devices and Activities
You may not use dogs, domestic animals, bait,
radios, handguns, rifles and crossbows (except as described
below), automobiles, aircraft, electronic calls
or any mechanical conveyance or device to hunt
deer.
 
While I support this bill in theory it is fraught with potential negative impacts for hunters.

The main impact that I can foresee is an outfitter that will charge the hunter to come find his deer with a substandard dog, not be able to find the deer and still charge the hunter a large sum of money. What is the hunter’s recourse? Better Business Bureau? DNR? Guide and Outfitters Association? Who ya gonna call?

Will the thought they can always come find the deer with a dog make hunters take poor percentage shots? Will it allow them to practice less with their weapon of choice because they can find a wounded animal with a dog?

Will this enable outfitters who sell hunts to someone who has never held a weapon before to sell hunts based on “100% recovery”?
And what does “wounded animal” really mean? Does there have to be a blood trail? If so how big?

Let’s say you take a marginal shot on a deer, perhaps not a lethal shot, how long do you run the deer that may not die from the injury?
What if the dog and his handler come to a fence? Cross because they are pursuing wounded game?

At what point in time will a hunter who wounds a deer be required to hire a dog and its handler? If I don’t can I be charged with wanton waste?

Again, in theory this is a good idea but in practice without further regulation it would turn into an enforcement and consumer nightmare.

I think this is well intentioned legislation by the bill’s sponsor but I fear there is more to it than meets the eye. I think somebody is angling to make a buck off a buck. I think the unintended consequences of this legislation are necessary to consider before supporting it.
I wonder how the DNR enforcement division feels about the bill?

The ‘Bonker
 
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JNRBRONC said:
It's legal to walk a dog but illegal to use a dog for deer related purposes.

DNR regs: Prohibited Devices and Activities
You may not use dogs, domestic animals, bait,
radios, handguns, rifles and crossbows (except as described
below), automobiles, aircraft, electronic calls
or any mechanical conveyance or device to hunt
deer.
Click to expand...

I'm not reading the part about "deer related purposes" though. What I see is...You may not use dogs, etc, etc, to hunt deer. I'm not sure I can relate walking a leashed dog without a weapon to the act of hunting deer. :confused:
 
Iowabowtech said:
I'm not reading the part about "deer related purposes" though. What I see is...You may not use dogs, etc, etc, to hunt deer. I'm not sure I can relate walking a leashed dog without a weapon to the act of hunting deer. :confused:
Click to expand...

I think you are probably right. It would be totally useless legislation if you look at it like that.
 
I do not see the need for this if it is already legal to walk your dog on a leash, daa. Is someone trying to open a bigger issue up here. More here that meets the eye IMO.
 
i saw on a hunting show that its legal in new york. they even have guys you can call, and for a fee, they bring out their dog and track your deer.

if this passes, i may have found my new part time job. "have dog, will travel" you pay my mileage, and time for tracking, and a "finder's" fee if rover finds your buck. if the buck is alive when we find it, and no one is allowed to carry a weapon, and your deer runs off........you still owe me the finders fee
 
Unless they end up tweaking it to model it after NY. Only licensed guides can charge for such services per their regs. Great deal for outfitters, not so much for the average Joe.
 
Iowabowtech, I replied to your post over on Archerytalk but there have not been any replies since mine. I was forwarded this link by one of the other UBT Board of Directors.

Just to introduce myself. I am one of the directors for United Blood Trackers. A national tracking dogs association formed several years ago with the specific purpose of training others, promoting and working toward the legalization of the use of tracking dogs for the ethical recovery of wounded animals. I have been around tracking dogs for a little over 9 years and worked my own dog for the last 7. I am in Ga and have been on over 150 tracking jobs in that time.

I know some will say what is someone from Ga doing telling us what to do or think, that is not what I am here for. What I hope to do is be able to provide facts so that people can make sound judgments not just react without knowing or getting some facts.

Now that I have more time I will answer and elaborate on what I post to A.T.

Fishbonker, brought up some good points. Actually it is the same points that are brought up just about every time a state looks at the legalization of tracking dogs.

It has been disproved over and over again, having the ability to use a tracking dog does not cause people to take more marginal shots. Those people are out there and going to take those shots either way.

As far as charging. There is nothing in the bill that says you can or can not charge. In N.Y. only registered outfitters can charge but a donation can be given to deer search. Here in Ga some charge some do not. I can tell you right now it is just about impossible to do it on a regular bases without charging something. If you take calls from other hunters you will end up spending a lot in gas and time. I have an average of 20 calls a year average trip of 30 miles round trip taking about 4 hrs. Some take as many as 100 calls and travel a lot further. So the time and gas can be a lot, allowing people to charge helps off set this. Hunters will dictate what trackers can charge. Too much and trackers will never get a call, to little and the tracker will be running silly. As far as outfitters they could use it as a promotion point yes. Would you not want to go where they have the best tools available. And I can tell you right now no dog has a 100% recovery. If someone says they do, look out. There are too many things that can go wrong that reduces the chance of recovery.

What does a wounded animal mean, any animal that is shot at deserves being checked out. Put the dog on it for a hundred or so yards to see if you find any sign. most trackers learn to read their dog and can tell if they are on a owunded animal. Then after trackign it a while and seeing the sign left by the animal tell if it they are going to be able to catch up to the animal. The furthest I have ever gone is just a little over 3 miles, with several around or just over the mile mark. A seriously wounded animal can travel a long ways if pushed before expiring. Leg hit deer are some of the worse. They might or might not make it. They have to be able to get away from you , then predators then survive infection. That is the reason allowing the tracker or hunter to carry a weapon is good. There are a lot of tracks I do that the blood does not show for 30-40 yards and there are a lot of marginal shots that I track. I track till we can go no further and that means no trespassing. We are allowed to carry a weapon to put a wounded animal down. The thing is a lot of the times you do not know how bad the animal is till you get up to it.

Wanton waste, you have that now. Some hunter gets down looks around and does not find sign and figures he did not hit it and gets back in the stand and shots another deer. Tracking dogs are just another tool that hunters can use to retrieve legally taken game. Just like hunting not every hunter has or can afford the latest camo or rifle. So no hunter should be required to call a tracking dog. But if they have one or can find someone with one then just like any tool they should be able to use it, but not punished if they do not.

As far the angle for the legislation. I have spoken to the person several times that spoke to this legislator and got him to sponsor this bill. The only angle is to get tracking dogs legalized.


As far as other states go. Some see no problem tracking at night with a weapon and have not had any problem with people spot lighting. Some require that the tracker pass a written test and the dog pass a tracking test. Then only a certifed tracker can carry a weapon at night to put the animal down. But during the day the hunter can carry a weapon that is currently in season for that particular animal. Illinois your dog has to pass a tracking test to track on state land but not on private. Some states you must call the G.W. before tracking and let them know where you are going to be, I only do it here out of curtsey to the G.W. when I am tracking on state lands. Wissconsin you can not carry a weapon, gun bow waht ever is in season but they can carry a knife. It is not considered a weapon normally used in the pursuit of deer so can be carried.
Here is a link to the UBT legislative page. You can click on any state that allows tracking dogs and see what is allowed.
http://www.unitedbloodtrackers.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=10

Bowtech, I have spoken to the Iowa DNR about this before we made the above page for the UBT web site. The problem is one GW might allow it in his area "under the table" but not across the state. This bill would make a standard that everyone on both sides would know. A G.W. can charge you with anything they just have to prove it layer. Having a bill would help clarify what is already going on and give a peace of mind to those that are doing it now out of sight of the G.W. Leashed tracking dogs work best on long lines. So no the chances are a G.W. might not stop you walking your dog in the woods on a short leash but you also will not have an effective tracking dog. So why even take the chance when a simple change will allow tracking dogs.

I do have some questions about this bill though. It makes it sound like only the hunter can use the tracking dog and not that a hunter will be able to call in someone with a dog.

There are poachers and law breakers in our sport and we know it. No matter what laws we have they are going to do as they please. Be it trespassing, spot lighting, hunting with dogs, carrying a weapon when they should not. Allowing the use of tracking dogs is not going to change this. The use of tracking dogs is an ethical and effective tool that can be added to the hunter’s arsenal. In Ga we have around 100 trackers listed on a message board. A few years ago I poled them and got response from about 60. The group as a whole recovered around 600 animals and took close to 1000 calls. The good ones get plenty of calls the bad ones quickly either get better or the word gets out and people stop calling them. If a dog can help just one hunter recovery an animal that would otherwise be lost then it is a good thing. Tracking dogs also help save our natural resource for future use by recovering animals the hunter would have other wise lost. If a hunter shots and can not recover the animal most just go back and hunt again. Thus potential being able to shot a second or third animal going over what they normally would have been allowed to harvest if the animal lost had been recovered.

I am not here to be argumentative but answer concerns. If I have sounded like I have been, my apologies. If anyone has a question about how something has been done or handled in other states or a specific about the tracking dogs in their working style and abilities please ask. The more information that can be brought up the better informed both sides will be.


Thank you for your time.

Ken
 
Ken, thanks for the input, I have several questions that I will try to answer for myself by looking at the UBT pages. Until I have a chance to peruse it fully can you tell me what percentage of the deer the members of UBT recover are does?

And to be honest I kinda figured there was probably a large group behind this legislation. No offense intended, I know there are expenses involved but I just get a little edgy when a group or an individual tries, in my opinion, to profit from a natural resource and/or a hunter in a desperate situation.

Thanks for the link, I look forward to looking over the UBT site and furthering my understanding of UBT and our continued conversations here on IWT.

The ‘Bonker
 
Our members are indpendent. One member there in Iowa ask us to step up and offer our advice/knowledge to the board if they would like it to help them make an infomed decision. We have and have not gotten and request back so we have not had any direct action on this. We are a not for profit so we can not lobby but only offer advice, training and demonstrations. No one takes a salary or gets paid. All money collected goes to putting on training, paying for the web site, exspense to promote teh use of tracking dogs. I can tell you a lot of the board has spent a lot of their own money traveling to promote the use of tracking dogs. They do not do it to become rich that is for sure. Think of it this way, we are a clearing house for tracking dog information, put together by dedicated people that want to pass on their sport and knowledge.

I would say nationaly the average recovery rate is somewere around 40-45%. We just got the new web site up and have started an annual poll of the members and their season to try and collect some hard numbers for occasions like this. The number is higher in parts of the country were they turn the dogs loose. The dogs have the freedom to run and bay so the hunter can then finish the animal off if it is stll alive and yes the dogs for the most part stick with the wounded one. I get quite a few high back or neck calls every year. These are tough since the animal is not mortally wounded per say. Will they die there is a good chance if yotes catch them before they heal and can move good or infection gets them down the rd. Can you get them sometimes. These are the ones that hit the ground like a sack of taters then as you are getting down out of your stand or lowering your weapon they pop up and walk off. Since nothing vital is hit they will travel a long way and stay out in front of you. If the yotes and infection does not get them then they have a good chance of surviving. I have friend who use to track in Illinois who would recover several deer during shotgun season that had been hit high or right in the shoulder during bow season. Deer are very tough animals. Tracking for others and seeing lots of tracking jobs will open your eyes up to what deer will and can do when shot.

Non recoveries also include ones that are deemed no fatal and cross property lines and the hunter can not get or does not know how to get permission to go onto the other property so I stop. discount them and the number goes way up. The most I ever had was 13 in one year. 6 of those track I felt were recovereable deer, but we stoped since we did not have permission to continue.

I will be up front about my charging I charge $60 to show up within 30 miles of my house and $20 more if the deer is found and take calls up to 10:30 at night. I honestly do not think that is to much. I give it as long as it takes, that has been as much as 6 hrs and as little as 10 minutes. I do know of others that charge over a hundred just to show up here in Ga. but they also do not get many calls to work their dogs.
 
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