Buck Hollow Sporting Goods - click or touch to visit their website Midwest Habitat Company

Hf 2009

I am not here to be argumentative but answer concerns. If I have sounded like I have been, my apologies.

Not at all. Thanks for the informative post and welcome to IW. Ken, I read everything you had to say carefully and I have a few areas of concern.

There are poachers and law breakers in our sport and we know it. No matter what laws we have they are going to do as they please. Be it trespassing, spot lighting, hunting with dogs, carrying a weapon when they should not. Allowing the use of tracking dogs is not going to change this.

I'm not sure I agree entirely. While it's true that these types of folks will engage in these activities irregardless, giving them more tools to do it effectively is a fear of mine. Much like putting a crackpipe in front of a junkie. And depending on how the law would be written here, it could give them a pretty good dose of dope. Kinda like winning the lottery for some and here is my reasoning...They have a legitimate excuse for being where they are with the tools of the trade in hand legally. Now who's to say what our particular legislation would look like. Perhaps they would allow certain things and not others but the key point is that once a law is passed, it's likely to get tweaked over time so even if the original regs look good, who knows about the future? It's much easier to make changes once you have a baseline to start with.

On a similar note, I am concerned about fees, licensing and so forth. Why would we want to laden ourselves with that when I contend we can use a dog right now as our current regs are written. I know you have stated that our CO's vary on their stance and I wouldn't argue that may be the case, but I feel that stance is perhaps a showing of scare tactics to disuade people from using dogs in such a way that becomes hunting with them which of course is illegal in Iowa.

Wanton waste, you have that now. Some hunter gets down looks around and does not find sign and figures he did not hit it and gets back in the stand and shots another deer.

I would agree that this may happen in some cases but my guess is those hunters would be the very same ones who would not take the initiative to call in a tracker and pay out a fee or donation so I see no benefit in those cases.

The furthest I have ever gone is just a little over 3 miles, with several around or just over the mile mark.

You would be hard pressed to find any contiginous ground where a hunter could travel either of those two distances without trespassing concerns in Iowa. There will certainly be exceptions no doubt but Iowa is the land of fences and this may be my number one concern. Not only that but our parcels are being divided more and more all the time making for a true patchwork of ownerships many of whom break access chains that were previously open. I'm not sure how effective this entire process would be here. I can see however, how it could be effective in areas of the country where large parcels of land are commonplace.

Our regs allow for a hunter to legally step foot onto private ground in pursuit of wounded game. The fact we have this law creates an immediate snag IMO. I don't think there is any way we could maintain that law AND allow tracking because you are in pursuit of wounded game when using the dog. The only way I could see things working would be to eliminate our current allowance to enter private property. And we can't just say keep the dogs on your side of the fence in the event there's no visible blood and continue on alone because there is waaaay to much room for ambiguity and interpretation as to what is an acceptable track to cross with or without a dog. So bottom line, I see the potential for a trespassing disaster OR losing what we already have which is not too shabby if you ask me.

And finally, I am slightly perplexed at the level of concern from UBT to get legislation passed in all states. What is the reason? Is it truly just a love for what you do? If so, I commend you guys for taking action in something you believe in. Many folks here are doing the very same for our state and it's resources and I suppose that is part of the reason for my asking about things in the first place. I just can't help but feel like there's something else going on that involves an industry or money in some fashion. I may be overanalyzing however and I hope you do not take offense if that's the case.

I realize it must appear that I am strongly against this idea but in truth, I haven't entirely made up my mind. I tend to approach new things with extreme caution because I have found over the years that change is not always good. Perhaps this would be one of those cases in which I'm wrong but I must say, I really like our regs in their current form. Not only in regard to this issue, but most other game laws as well. I feel like we've had some wise decision makers in the past who have set the stage for us here in Iowa.

Anyway, thanks again Ken for taking the time to tap out your thoughts and share your expertise. I'll look forward to watching where this goes.
 
I would add Ken that I was typing my post at the same time you were responding. It may be that some of the questions I posed were addressed in your newest post.
 
Ok so a monster buck that would stay on your place gets nicked by a road hunter now can get driven off your hunting area with a dog too before recovering . I'm for the recovery but think about it . Just another twist in the law to screw with what a guy had tried to build .
 
Ok so a monster buck that would stay on your place gets nicked by a road hunter now can get driven off your hunting area with a dog too before recovering . I'm for the recovery but think about it . Just another twist in the law to screw with what a guy had tried to build .

If they are rd hunting they are illegal and you are not going to give them permission to track on your property. Rd hunters are not going to take the time or effort if it is not laying there. The dog is keep on leash so it will not be running the deer. So if it is just nicked then the deer will go lay down somewere on your place and still be there. That 3 miler we tracked was shot 2 days latter chasing a doe within a reasonable home range for a mature buck. he ended up pnly being grazed across the shoulder. But we did not know that till the second hunter shot it. We had found enough sign along the way to allow us to keep tracking.

Just to point out that people who are going to do wrong will. We just found a fresh gut pile in one of our food plots 2 weeks after season. Someone came in and shot a deer. People who are going to do that kind of stuff do not need a reason or a new law they are just going to do it.
 
What happens if a guy can't maintain grasp of the leash through heavy cover and the dog ends up on my ground appearing to be chasing a deer, (wounded) and I whack the dog for chasing and here comes the dog owner?
 
Iowabowtech your first point is again one of the main concerns of every state that has concidered new legislation to allow tracking dogs. If this became law yes it might be legal to use a tracking dog but if they do not have permission to be on the property then the act would not be legal. Again in no state have they shown nor have they reported an increase in the illegal activity associated with the legalization of tracking dogs. We all know that there will be someone. But just like poachers they are the minority but make all the legitimate hunters look bad but we still hunt. If a few use the dogs illegal that should not be a reason to not allow the legal use by others.



As far as fees go I am assuming you are talking about if they decided to charge handlers before they would be allowed to track. If so that is just how one state decided to do it so that they could keep up with and control the trackers. They do not have to charge anything like here in Ga. If you are referring to the fees trackers might charge then it could be put that they could only accept donations. Will you have as many trackers probably not as most can not afford to do it for nothing.



Every year you get hunters who call that do not want to pay, but in areas that only allow donations get plenty of calls. People in my area will call for a buck but rarely a doe but both deserve the same respect and deserve to be found and not wasted. Tracking dogs are one aspect that even those in the middle that do not hunting support. They see it as hunters going the extra step toward recovering game.

Distance, I am in the same boat fences everywhere. But there are those times that it just works out. I wrote and article one time that talked about getting permission or phone numbers from adjoining land owners before season just incase you needed to track across the line. Sometimes the hunter has done everything right and has made those calls before I get there. Then there are the times we are just lucky. I went right across the back of about 5 houses in the middle of the day one time. The hunter would go up to each house as we would get to the line and ask permission. It just so happened that someone was home at each place. If they had not been then that is where I would have stoped. You can also go over a mile on just a couple hundred acres. I have noticed a mature buck that is in its home range will tend to circle back to what is familar. Those that are out cruising and away from home will make a bee line back to what is familar.

As far as UBT getting legislation passed in every state. UBT did not even know about the current legislation till it was already in the works. We do not go out and activley try to change a state. It usually is one or two people in that state working with other groups that gets the rules changed. We are just a tool/resource they use to bring facts to the table.
All UBT tries to do is get it allowed. We do not care how a state implaments it. If we wanted it only one way,our way then I would even be concerned. We feel that every hunter should have the best tools out there to recover wounded animals and that includes tracking dogs.
As far as money UBT does not stand nor does any of the board members stand to gain from Iowa passing legislation to allow tracking dogs. Yes UBT has a small store that brings together the resources that a tracker might need but that money is then used for putting on seminars/training, reimbusrment of exspenses for speakers or judges to travel that kind of stuff. As I said earlier no one gets paid. It is for the love of tracking, recovering the animals and the dogs that we do this. When you see the look on the face of a kid when you recover that first deer that they thought was lost forever. Maybe you recover some guys biggest deer ever and see the excitment on their face it makes all the work training and late night calls worth it.

Thank you for being open minded and asking question. It does not seem that you have made your mind up but are searching for answers one way or the other, I comend that. There are plenty out there that will jump one way or the other with out facts.

I hope I have been able to adaquity answer your qustions or concerns. If not ask again and I will try again.

Ken
 
I would have no problem with this law passing. Probably would never benefit from it. Also wouldn't loose sleep over those who might use it as a new twist for illegal activity. I just don't think that will happen much, if at all.
 
I like the idea of being able to legally use dogs to find a downed deer but why do we need to create new legislation to do this?

If I shot a deer and let's say rain washing away the obvious blood trail or maybe the deer runs into a vast field of switch grass or corn making very tough tracking and I had access to a trained dog I would surely take advantage of it.

Currently it wouldn't be an issue if I were to use that method for a doe or an average buck but I can see some issues if it were a top end buck. Unfortunately for that very reason, a grey area, it would be nice to have clarification on the legality of this practice ... is it currently legal or illegal to do so?

Unless I am missing current regulation or law - I don't see that specifically tracking a deer with a dog is illegal - assuming the dog is on a leash, no weapon is carried and no trespass occurs.


Prohibited Devices and Activities

You may not use dogs, domestic animals, bait,
radios, handguns, rifles and crossbows (except as de-
scribed below), automobiles, aircraft, electronic calls
or any mechanical conveyance or device to hunt
deer. Paraplegics and single- or double-leg amputees
may hunt from any stationary motor-driven convey-
ance. “Paraplegic” means an individual afflicted
with paralysis of the lower half of the body with the
involvement of both legs, usually due to disease or
injury to the spinal cord.

Would it make more sense and better use of our tax dollars to lobby the DNR to simply modify the existing regulation(s) to clarify the intent in the above regulation vs creating a new law?? Unarmed pursuit and no trespass would be two key points in the update in my opinion. Again maybe I missed another law/reg that specifically disallows this activity??
 
Last edited:
I found the article I wrote back in 08, it has just one years worth tracking numbers, it shows the potential of what a tracking dogs can do.
I was wrong earlier about the number of trackers it was only 50 listed back then we have a lot more than that listed in GON now.

During the 2007 hunting season GON list of tracking dogs was about 50. I was able to contact 36 of these people during the off season to see what type of dog they were using and get some information on how there season went. There were many different breeds of dogs being used. The number 1 breed used was the bloodhound. Followed by mixed breeds, labs, Bavarian Mountain hounds, Beagles, Mt. Cur, Basset hound. Then at least one each of Rat Terrier, Boykin Spaniel, Pit bull, Black and Tan, Blue Tick, German Short hair pointer and one German Shepard. These 36 trackers and their dogs tracked 716 deer for hunter across our state; of the deer tracked 357 were recovered. That comes out to just under a 50% recovery rate. There are many reasons why deer are never recovered even with a tracking dog. There are many things that can cause a deer to not be recovered anything from not a fatal hit or at least not within a period of time that would allow the deer to be recovered to flesh wounds that will never be recovered. I heard back from many of the trackers that property line issues were still the number 1 reason many more deer were not recovered. I remind every hunter to make contact with the property owners surrounding your hunting property before hunting season and before you need them. Have the contact numbers for the land owners or an agreement ahead of time that will allow you to gain access legally to recover your animal. I personally ran into this 13 times this year and had to stop at the property line because the hunter did not know who owned the land or how to get a hold of them.

Tracking dogs are used to differing extents across the state. Just by the figures that I collected it is obvious that the QDMA (throphy managed) counties were putting the tracking dogs to work more often looking for the big bucks. We had one tracker take over 100 calls this year and 5 that got 1 or fewer calls. The top 6 trackers across the state tracked 380 of the 716 deer tracked for an average of 53 deer a piece. The over all average was just over 21 deer per tracker.

A few misconceptions about tracking dogs

"It has been raining so a dog will not be useful." Actually a light rain helps to hold the scent. Some dogs are even able to track after heavy rains.

It is always better to call as soon as possible but if you can not get a tracking dog until it 12 hrs or more then do not worry. A lot of people think that a dog is only good if the track is under a few hours old. Actually a well trained dog will be able to follow a scent trail 20 even 40 hrs old, even if other deer or wildlife has traveled the same trail. The meat may not be any good if the weather is hot or the yotes might have gotten to it, but if you want to recover your trophy do not be afraid to call in a quality tracking dog.

Another misconception is that "a tracking dog will always find your animal". A tracking dog greatly increases your chances of finding a wounded animal but it is by no means a guarantee. Dogs have bad days just like people do. Also many deer survive what hunters think to be a kill shot.
 
I like the idea of being able to legally use dogs to find a downed deer but why do we need to create new legislation to do this?

If I shot a deer and let's say rain washing away the obvious blood trail or maybe the deer runs into a vast field of switch grass or corn making very tough tracking and I had access to a trained dog I would surely take advantage of it.

Currently it wouldn't be an issue if I were to use that method for a doe or an average buck but I can see some issues if it were a top end buck. Unfortunately for that very reason, a grey area, it would be nice to have clarification on the legality of this practice ... is it currently legal or illegal to do so?

Unless I am missing current regulation or law - I don't see that specifically tracking a deer with a dog is illegal - assuming the dog is on a leash, no weapon is carried and no trespass occurs.




Would it make more sense and better use of our tax dollars to lobby the DNR to simply modify the existing regulation(s) to clarify the intent in the above regulation vs creating a new law?? Unarmed pursuit and no trespass would be two key points in the update in my opinion. Again maybe I missed another law/reg that specifically disallows this activity??

I share this approach over legislation.
 
Ironwwod, in some states that is all that is required. DNR makes the decision to allow tracking dogs then they make the rule changes. In other states is takes an actually legislative motion putting forth a bill and make it law to change things. Not knowing how Iowa is set up I can not say which it is. If all DNR has to do in Iowa is change the regs then yes that would be the simplest process.
 
Last edited:
Hello, my name is Brian and I am the person that pursued getting this bill going through legislator Nate Willems. I first contacted the DNR people and was then pointed to the legislator that represents me. I live outside of Oxford IA. My main love is bow hunting. I also shotgun and or muzzleload whitetail. I got interested in tracking wounded deer after my brother shot a buck with a bow that quit bleeding and we didn't find it. A farmer found it about a week later close to where we had quit looking. I am not interested in this being legalized so I can charge money and have a business. I just want to be able to use this tool myself or help out friends that need a hand finding a deer that they have lost visual sign from, and felt that they made a good shot. I also like dogs, and especially dogs that work. The dog I have been training is a Wire Haired Dachshund. That's right,a weiner dog. They are a hound and they have a good nose for hunting. It is legal in Iowa to use dogs to pursue coons, ducks, coyotes, rabbits, pheasants and whatever else I am forgetting about. Most of the above mentioned use of dogs entails loose running dogs. All I ask is that we as Iowa deer hunter's can legally use our dogs on a lead to help search for a deer that might be recoverable. I think the deer hunter's in Iowa are being unfairly treated by not being allowed to use a dog to help retrieve a mortally wounded deer. The proposed bill HF2009 is a bit rough and will probably be tweaked by the DNR committee people before they would ok it. I would just prefer to be able to use a dog on a lead to look for a deer legally. I don't want to say I'm just out walking my dog when I am trying to recover a deer. If you don't agree with me I respect your opinion. If you think you would like to see this made legal in Iowa you could call or email the folks listed on the Natural Resources Commitee to show your support. Thanks. Brian.
 
dogs for deer tracking

I don't know the specifics of this bill but the one experience I had with a dog trained for tracking allowed me to find a deer I'd wounded. A couple of friends and I had searched for quite a while and had pretty much given up. We called a friend whose lab had been successful in finding other wounded deer, and he showed up with his dog. The deer bled very little, had headed west where we were mainly looking, but had turned to the north. Our search wasn't even close to where this deer was finally located.
 
Well that did not take long. Just heard that the committe shut it down. I hope the ones that support this do not give up. If done right tracking dogs can be a great resource.

Thanks for letting me come aboard for this short time and talk to you about tracking dogs.

Ken
Hillock Kennels &
UBT Board member

Here is the contact info for the sub committe that shut it down.

E-mail: Curt.Hanson@legis.state.ia.us
Home Address: 801 N. Court St., Fairfield , IA , 52556

Capitol Telephone: 515-281-3221
Cell Phone: 641-919-2314


E-mail: richard.arnold@legis.state.ia.us
Home Address: 26875 407th Street , Russell , IA , 50238
Home Telephone: 641-535-6313


E-mail: dolores.mertz@legis.state.ia.us
Home Address: 607 110th Street , Ottosen , IA , 50570
Home Telephone: 515-887-2952


 
Well that did not take long. Just heard that the committe shut it down. I hope the ones that support this do not give up. If done right tracking dogs can be a great resource.

This bill was tabled indefinitely by the subcommittee. The DNR pledged to address the issue via administrative rule. DNR staff have different positions and they want to get everyone talking the same line.
 
Thanks Elk Hunter, at least it is not dead completly. It sounds like DNR is doing what many on hear wanted by addressing this in house with a policy change instead of a new law. Hopefully the DNR staff can get on the same page and get something changed.


Again thanks for the more accurate information
Ken
 
wildlands, thanks for great input here. I completely believe the use of dogs as stated here would be a good thing. Hopefully a clear policy will be created as a result deersniffers efforts.
 
I was told the 3 person commitee assigned to SF2009 spent a bit of time discussing the worst case senarios and then decided not to pursue it. The problem is there are several legislators that probably have never shot at a deer making decisions for a lot of ethical hunters. Using Wildlands advice I've recontacted the DNR liason listed below. I've asked if it is true the DNR will pursue this, who will be handling this, who might have concerns and how we can address them. To anyone that would support the use of leashed dog tracking wounded deer in Iowa I ask that you contact Diane Ford and let her know your feelings. If you know of any others in favor please have them do the same. I appreciate the help. The DNR needs to know that there are numerous people in favor of this. Thanks and I will keep all interested updated.

Diane Ford
Deputy Division Administrator
Legislative Liaison
Department of Natural Resources
Conservation and Recreation
515-281-6341
cell 238-4354
Ford, Diane [DNR] [Diane.Ford@dnr.iowa.gov]
 
I received a response from the DNR. They confirmed that they are going to proceed forward with this matter. The response I received from them is written below.
Brian,
I reiterated the points you and I have exchanged in emails during the subcommittees, with the strongest message remaining that the department can accommodate retrieval of wounded deer through the administrative rule process as the most appropriate method. The department agreed to go through this process, which will have the benefit of full public participation, legislative oversight and providing guidance for all DNR staff on the issue. I have urged our staff to start this process immediately, so legislators (and you) know we are progressing on this issue. Thanks again for all your input, and I’ve asked our Wildlife staff to keep you appraised of the rules process. I will also make sure Rep. Willems and staff are aware of this progress.

Diane

Diane Ford
Deputy Division Administrator
Legislative Liaison
Department of Natural Resources
Conservation and Recreation
515-281-6341
cell 238-4354
 
Top Bottom