"Mature"?

[JBAGS]

Here's another question......

How much of the does genetics is passed vs. the bucks in any
breeding situation?

Say a 180" class breeds (2) seperate does, what are the odds
that doe produces a buck fawn with the potential to reach 180"?

Obviously the bucks genetics are there, so how much does a doe
influence what that buck will do?

 

[bloodhoundhandler]

This is Gay....

so is this.....

]I am now questioning if I want to share anymore deer or duck blinds with you knowing you have gay deer porn downloaded on your computer

 

[Critter]

I also read somewhere the if a 1 1/2 year old buck does mount a doe that doe WILL NOT become impregnated.Its nature way of insureing that most of the does are bred by the dominate buck.

Umm.......I'd really be interested to know who wrote that. A buck doesn't have to be 4 years old to qualify as dominate. Even though age generally takes a big part in dominance, a deer doesn't actually know how old another deer is, only whether or not it appears as if it is genetically superior.
There are many opinions shared on this site, none of which are any more important than any others. It's best if you learn to take those opinions with a grain of salt and quietly agree to disagree if you so choose to. The one thing we don't do on this site is call each other out........it's the fastest way to loosing any credibility you may have ever had.

 

[archery95]

I am not sure Critter.I will look it up for you.My best guess is that it was either James Kroll,Greg Miller or Leonard lee Rue 111.
I wasn't calling anyone out>i was just rying to inform people on facts.
#1 fact.....80% of does in a given area will be bread by the dominate buck in that area.If 3 1/2 year old bucks are dominate then they do MOST of the breeding.
#2 fact.All the does in an area don't come into heat at he same time.When a dominate buck is "locked down" with a doe it is because after sniffing every trail and doe bed in the area his instincts tell him that that doe will be the next one to come in.While he is with that doe the inferior bucks ARE NOT out breeding all the other does in the woods.Why would the dominate buck be with ONE does if the woods was full of does in heat.
#3 fact..If every inferior buck was breeding does,would the rut really last 3 weeks?Would there even be a secondary rut?I think all the does would be bred in no time if every buck in the woods was breeding.
#4 fact..If you see a buck locked own with a doe it is more than likely a dominate buck..If subordinate bucks did much breeding why don't you see little 6 pointers locked down with does.And if you do see a buck locked down with a doe at 1pm and he is still there the next morning with a doe....who is to say it is even the same does..He may have bred that one and others and have another new doe with him.
This is my last post on this thread.

 

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

3.5 to me is mature, although I see my share of 4.5 and older bucks every year. At the end of the season, I'll put an arrow through a 3.5 year old no questions asked.

 

[SEIowaDeerslayer]

Here's another question......

How much of the does genetics is passed vs. the bucks in any
breeding situation?

Say a 180" class breeds (2) seperate does, what are the odds
that doe produces a buck fawn with the potential to reach 180"?

Obviously the bucks genetics are there, so how much does a doe
influence what that buck will do?

Depends on who was the doe's daddy.

 

[bowmaker]

Depends on who was the doe's daddy.

How much did your Mother influence your genetic potential? How much did the mare influence Secretariat's genetics? How big was the rack on Goliath's sire? How much influence was the genetics of all 4 Grand Parents of John F Kennedy and his future generations? Some genetic traits are dominate and some are passive and since both mother and father contribute both types and both originally received both types who can say what will be passed on? So in a totally uncontrolled population no one can tell what good traits or what bad traits are passed from generation to generation, because there is no way to tell who those different generations even are. These deer don't have ear tags.

Doesn't every buck have the potential to become a 180 with proper nutrition and and minerals and time? Since there is no way we can trace parentage how can we say that any one buck has more potential than another buck? :thrwrck:

 

[IowaDave]

Here's another question......

How much of the does genetics is passed vs. the bucks in any
breeding situation?

Say a 180" class breeds (2) seperate does, what are the odds
that doe produces a buck fawn with the potential to reach 180"?

Obviously the bucks genetics are there, so how much does a doe
influence what that buck will do?

I'm no expert, but I have a basic knowlege of genetics, and a does genes definitely dictate what a buck's potential would be.

Let's say doe #1's daddy was a 180" buck (we'll stop there to try & avoid too much confusion). If she is then bred by a 180" buck and has a buck fawn, basic genetics says that odds are that fawn has the genes to become a 180" buck (given the chance to age that long, nutrition, etc. etc).

On the other hand we have doe #2 whose daddy was a buck that was 120" and (most importantly) that's all he was ever going to be no matter how old he got. If she is bred by a 180" deer, the chances are less that a buck fawn will be a 180" buck. Not to say it wouldn't/couldn't happen, but chances are less.

I'm no expert on dominant & recessive genes as far as antler growth are concerned and I'm not going to insert a pic of a punnentt square :grin:, but like I said, basic genetics says that a doe and her genes will have an effect on a buck's potential antler growth.

 

[THA4]

I am not sure Critter.I will look it up for you.My best guess is that it was either James Kroll,Greg Miller or Leonard lee Rue 111.
I wasn't calling anyone out>i was just rying to inform people on facts.
#1 fact.....80% of does in a given area will be bread by the dominate buck in that area.If 3 1/2 year old bucks are dominate then they do MOST of the breeding.


#2 fact.All the does in an area don't come into heat at he same time.When a dominate buck is "locked down" with a doe it is because after sniffing every trail and doe bed in the area his instincts tell him that that doe will be the next one to come in.While he is with that doe the inferior bucks ARE NOT out breeding all the other does in the woods.Why would the dominate buck be with ONE does if the woods was full of does in heat.
#3 fact..If every inferior buck was breeding does,would the rut really last 3 weeks?Would there even be a secondary rut?I think all the does would be bred in no time if every buck in the woods was breeding.
#4 fact..If you see a buck locked own with a doe it is more than likely a dominate buck..If subordinate bucks did much breeding why don't you see little 6 pointers locked down with does.And if you do see a buck locked down with a doe at 1pm and he is still there the next morning with a doe....who is to say it is even the same does..He may have bred that one and others and have another new doe with him.
This is my last post on this thread.

This will be my 17th season archery hunting. Not as much as some of you guys, and some more than some ... and I have LOTS to learn. but I find issues with every one of these "facts" When a mature/"dominant" buck is on lock down, do you seriously believe the other younger/subdominant bucks don't attempt to breed does out of reverence to the dominant buck>??? thats absurd! hahaha, thats why rattling works this time of year because the younger bucks are trying to get their deer nuts off while the boss is off servicing his current lady friend....

Further more, ever wonder why so many smaller bucks respond quicker to rattling than the larger ones?? Because they KNOW while two bucks are fighting over breeding rights, there is a good chance that there is a hot doe in the area ALL ALONE...., which she was the purpose of the fight to begin with. They come into the "fight" to look for the doe

Here is a fact for you.... The older bucks get, the less breeding they do..... they have learned its the quality of the experience rather than the quantity. A 5.5 year old buck will breed anywhere from 3-5 does AT MAX... far from EVERY doe in the woods. (this obviously is based on the herd Buck to Doe ratio, but take that as an average) Dominance is more of a personality trait rather than an inherited trait.... sure, some might come from genetics, but more of it is just personality....

Finally, I think dominance has little to do with this..... Rather maturity is the key factor in how many does a buck will breed..... Dominance is really only an issue for 3.5-4.5 year old bucks as they feel the need to assert said dominance to establish their place (kinda like us in a funny sort of way).... the older deer will still respond to intimidation by confronting a younger buck full of piss and vinegar, and teach him a lesson, or he will be lowered pecking order, but he is wiser, smarter, and knows that keeping his does away from other bucks (lock down) is the best way for him to spread his genes.....

 

[Iowa1]

Around this part of Minnesota, about 80% or more of the breeding is done by 1 1/2-year-old bucks.

 

[180class]

I've seen on a couple occasions, where the dominant buck in an area no longer breeds at all. In every case, the buck as been 6.5 years or older.

 

[Thinkin Rut]

I've seen on a couple occasions, where the dominant buck in an area no longer breeds at all. In every case, the buck as been 6.5 years or older.

I agree 100% that some older bucks don't breed but they are no longer a dominant buck or never was. JMO

 

[cedar creek]

Give archery a break. Obviously none of you have read the book!

 

[rutnstrut]

How much did your Mother influence your genetic potential? How much did the mare influence Secretariat's genetics? How big was the rack on Goliath's sire? How much influence was the genetics of all 4 Grand Parents of John F Kennedy and his future generations? Some genetic traits are dominate and some are passive and since both mother and father contribute both types and both originally received both types who can say what will be passed on? So in a totally uncontrolled population no one can tell what good traits or what bad traits are passed from generation to generation, because there is no way to tell who those different generations even are. These deer don't have ear tags.

Doesn't every buck have the potential to become a 180 with proper nutrition and and minerals and time? Since there is no way we can trace parentage how can we say that any one buck has more potential than another buck? :thrwrck:

As far as potential in the wild Id have to guess that MOST deer will never reach 180"s. Im not sure how much impact you could really have if you were just to force feed nutrition into deer like a breeder, otherwise genetically superior deer wouldnt be worth anymore to them than any other deer if time and nutrition were all that was needed. I think under normal circumstances most deer in the wild will never reach the B&C class no matter how long they live or what they eat.

 

[rutnstrut]

I've seen on a couple occasions, where the dominant buck in an area no longer breeds at all. In every case, the buck as been 6.5 years or older.

Not trying to call you out but what would make you think that a certain buck no longer breeds? I would have to imagine that a buck is a lot like me and if everything still works than Ill always be open for business. :grin:

 

[Thinkin Rut]

As far as potential in the wild Id have to guess that MOST deer will never reach 180"s.

Great point...and we need to remind ourselves of that from time to time.

 

[bowmaker]

As far as potential in the wild Id have to guess that MOST deer will never reach 180"s. I'm not sure how much impact you could really have if you were just to force feed nutrition into deer like a breeder, otherwise genetically superior deer wouldn't be worth anymore to them than any other deer if time and nutrition were all that was needed. I think under normal circumstances most deer in the wild will never reach the B&C class no matter how long they live or what they eat.

I agree with you, but in I really didn't express it very well. Part of my point is if MOST bucks will never reach the 180 level. How, as just observers in the field, can any hunter say which bucks do have that potential, so we should pass them and let them get older and which ones can't get there so we might as well shoot them now? We can make 2 general assumptions. 1 Any deer we kill at 140 will never make it to 180. 2. Any 140 might have the potential to make it to 180 if he lives a couple more years, unless he is already very old and going down hill. We have absolutely no way to gauge what future potential that a buck has, so how can we decide which to shoot and which to let grow?
Bottom line is I feel that all this genetics stuff does play a part in deer hunting, but one that none of us, with out a completely controlled environment and population can ever possibly track.

 

[Daver]

Great point...and we need to remind ourselves of that from time to time.

I think this is a good point too. One thing that I have noticed is that when people post trail cam pics of a buck in the 130"-140" range there is almost always a poster or two that will reply, "give him one more year" or "he'll really blow up next year", etc.

Undoubtedly, a buck cannot get to 180" if he gets shot when he is 140" and a good number of bucks will move up the ladder from one year to the next, but some seem to top out at around 140" or so. Several years ago I had a buck right underneath me that I am very confident was an old, old buck and his rack, while pretty gnarly, was probably only 120". (He may actually have been a bit bigger the previous year, but he was never going to get to 180".)

 

[rutnstrut]

I agree with you, but in I really didn't express it very well. Part of my point is if MOST bucks will never reach the 180 level. How, as just observers in the field, can any hunter say which bucks do have that potential, so we should pass them and let them get older and which ones can't get there so we might as well shoot them now? We can make 2 general assumptions. 1 Any deer we kill at 140 will never make it to 180. 2. Any 140 might have the potential to make it to 180 if he lives a couple more years, unless he is already very old and going down hill. We have absolutely no way to gauge what future potential that a buck has, so how can we decide which to shoot and which to let grow?
Bottom line is I feel that all this genetics stuff does play a part in deer hunting, but one that none of us, with out a completely controlled environment and population can ever possibly track.

Yeah its pretty much a crap shoot, the only time I really think a deer is going to make a big jump or has the potential to become a monster is if he is already exceptionally good for his age class. Like I would think a 10point 1 1/2yr old is probably going to have more potential than a spike or fork horn of the same age class. Or if you have a 2 1/2yr old throwing abnormal points already theres a good chance he will blow up into something really big. I wouldnt just say that oh yeah that 140" 3yr old should get a couple years because he could turn into something real special, but if it was a 140" 2yr old and had a couple splits or extra points then I would tend to get excited. I wouldnt ever give anyone a hard time for shooting anything that made them happy all though I do see some pics of of some exceptional young deer that are shot and find myself biting my tongue.

So basically the only time I ever really say that deer should have a get out of jail free card for a year or two is if he is already showing signs of being something special... I wouldnt ever just pass what I think of as a good buck because he MIGHT get bigger in a year or two because some just wont. A perfect example of this is a 8 point I shot a few years back, he was probably one of the most mature bucks I have ever shot and he wasnt going to get any bigger than what he was he carried basically the same upper 150s 8 point frame for three years without putting on anything. The only difference from when I first noticed him as what I think was a 4 or 5 year old until the day I shot him at 6 or 7 years old was he added a small 3.5" G-4 on one side his last year. Another example is a giant six point I have had on camera for 3 years now, hes probably 7 years old and up until this year he has only been a giant fork horn with brows now this year hes got a small 2" G-3 on one side but thats it.

 

[loneranger]

It is great if you have enough low hunted property, that you can see the same bucks year after yr. and decide to let them grow. In my situation, all I have is a travel corridor for land. Heavy hunting on all sides. If a deer makes it to 4 yrs old, it is quite spectacular. To see a buck that old anyway. The size of the antlers might vary, but to me the special part of the buck is that he managed to live that long. The age is a trophy to me.