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My Knowledge & Solution quest for Info to combat EHD & TICKS....

I don't think I have feasibility of riprap. If I did it'd be for part of ponds and a few watering spots I leave out. I did talk to my excavator guy and he said he does do quite a few ponds where he makes the banks steeper and said it is doable & not erode. He explained it. Maybe I try one or 2 this summer to see how fast it Would be and see if improvement at all. If it's "2 hours a pond" I sure could handle that. 2 days, no. But at $100-125 an hour on an excavator while I have him there anyways it's worth trying some & seeing if it's got any merit to it. I've got a few ponds I'm close to deciding to blow the damns out of and redoing them (silted on from last 15-25 years) so I'll pry experiment with some of em and try to make the walls a bit steeper, etc. almost wished I could do solar powered bubblers at all my ponds to circulate water but again, just don't think it's real practical. But- sure learning and open to things and I will be trying a little goofing off & experimenting with some ponds with the excavator.
 
Here's one for you guys!!! Doing some thinking. Talking to a buddy of mine. A million ways you could adapt this or change this.... "How to get Permithrin on deer" (which, if you can, BAM, that would have a HUGE impact, I'm almost certain of it). So, Permithrin, same stuff you treat your clothes with, let dry, pretty much no smell and keeps ticks off for 4-5 washes in washing machine and still works. It's AMAZING STUFF. So, one thing earlier, the paint rollers on feeders. Which, great idea. Then, could do something where they go through fence, whatever.
Where my mind started going...... Made up example that will likely keep me thinking, trying different things, experimenting....
My idea is this...... SO, I plant 3-4 Egyptian wheat or sorghum patches on my farms, SMALL, say the size of your living room, let's just say 300 square feet, WHATEVER, small. SO..... I make an opening somewhere in it and put corn or feed out in it. THEY WILL EAT IT. THEY WILL FIND IT. NO QUESTION. Maybe some mineral, attractant, WHATEVER...... So...... I go by these tall milo/sorghum small plots every few weeks.... Spray the piss out of it with Permithrin. All the stalks and growth. It would stay on there for weeks, EASY. Wouldn't destroy all the insects on my farm, just that little area. So.... The deer walk in and out of those milo/sorghum/egyptian wheat spots.... They brush against all the plants to get to food. They get Permithrin on them going in and out. LOW COST, LOW RISK (essentially little to no harm to anything) & I'll bet you a nickel this would work. Especially if you all know how amazing Permithrin is on insects like ticks, flies, etc. That's ONE idea I'm gonna work off of, trial. Don't cost squat to do this either and won't take hardly any time at all. So easy. Worth a shot!!! Could do same thing putting feed/corn by a path through corn field, maybe fence opening where something there to rub against deer, whatever. The Egyptian wheat thicket may be one ticket that might help though, big time and cheap, easy.
 
I say yes. But I may be wrong. Ur plants will have dew in am and allow permethrin to transfer. Plants gonna have some moisture on outside. It takes so little permethrin to kill insects it's insane. I don't know for sure but thought the same thing. Using the stuff over the years and seeing how potent & effective it is- I'm going to "guess yes". Worth the tiny amount of time and $ and gonna try that and other stuff.
 
Put 150 lbs out at each location. Bout 4 weeks ago I refilled spots. I tried a few different quality mineral brands- all pretty similar. Since I was unsure about "preference" and desire to consume, I mixed in about 5 lbs dried molasses. A lot of deer yes. Came back last weekend- cleaned most them out. Unreal. Piles of deer making few minute stops to gobble a little up. Absolutely pounding them. Had mineral out for probably 15 years and this dried molasses made major difference. I know enough deer use them and don't "over eat" based on couple cams I had up for fun. But they love it.
Most would say "I can't prove this, in your head" BUT.... looking at the bases & browtines on these deer and seeing bucks all over other areas- I know it's working. It's sick the bases and junk already blowing up. Not a coincidence.
Mixing up some sulfur and garlic in certain spots & put more molasses with it to see how that goes. Want these deer to taste like crap to flies & ticks.
 
Had a talk with a cattle feed guru in MN. He has lots of experience in both cattle and the deer industry. He feels one of the keys to antler growth is not just a good diet, mineral, but also year round water, good access . Anyone else ever here that theory.

He said it will help the bucks (rack and body size) if they get good year round water, and not have to travel long distances...eat snow, that type of thing. I have just never heard that theory?
 
Hardwood11 said:
Had a talk with a cattle feed guru in MN. He has lots of experience in both cattle and the deer industry. He feels one of the keys to antler growth is not just a good diet, mineral, but also year round water, good access . Anyone else ever here that theory.

He said it will help the bucks (rack and body size) if they get good year round water, and not have to travel long distances...eat snow, that type of thing. I have just never heard that theory?
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Makes sense. Good thing about Iowa, at least by me. Ponds every few hundred yards (which is bad for EHD on other hand) & rivers & Streams always have water. Again, Midge issues. Talk to some guys in western areas of KS.... drought year, maybe due to lack of plant growth too - racks will suffer without a lot of water. Suppose same here though during drought.
Sure makes sense though, stress of any kind (need for water) has to have impact.
 
http://deerfarmer.com/deer-farm-production/systemics-ehd-control-7077/

Interesting perspective. Example of a resources I've learned a lot from.... Guys that grow whitetails and their income/livelihood depend on it. What does & doesn't work, what they spend their money on and what they do for prevention, healthier deer, minerals, EHD stuff, etc. Now, again, MANY things guys with deer they raise can do, I can not do in a WILD setting. SOME things I can duplicate though, fairly obvious to think about things we can and cannot duplicate in wild. Read through above forum/discussion, I thought it had some interesting perspectives.

Another read, horses, dogs, cattle, etc.... Garlic feed for sale, marketing & information flyer. Interesting points & read.....
https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.springtimeinc.com/downloads/Garlic-Flyer.pdf
& https://www.springtimeinc.com/FB-2014-04-Bug-Off-Garlic

And finally... CHECK THIS OUT.... *Question, could you get deer to come to feeding locations (say you did 1-8 per farm? Depending on farm size, say 1 per 80 acres for example) - I think yes. Could you get them used to a quiet fine mist that's motion activated like a trail cam? I also think yes. If you could get it on them, that stuff sticks on em and works for long time (so once every week or 2 would be pretty impactful). HMMMMMM.....
https://www.facebook.com/livestcock/?hc_ref=SEARCH&fref=nf
$1200 for solar powered set up
 
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Sligh1 said:
Here's one for you guys!!! Doing some thinking. Talking to a buddy of mine. A million ways you could adapt this or change this.... "How to get Permithrin on deer" (which, if you can, BAM, that would have a HUGE impact, I'm almost certain of it). So, Permithrin, same stuff you treat your clothes with, let dry, pretty much no smell and keeps ticks off for 4-5 washes in washing machine and still works. It's AMAZING STUFF. So, one thing earlier, the paint rollers on feeders. Which, great idea. Then, could do something where they go through fence, whatever.
Where my mind started going...... Made up example that will likely keep me thinking, trying different things, experimenting....
My idea is this...... SO, I plant 3-4 Egyptian wheat or sorghum patches on my farms, SMALL, say the size of your living room, let's just say 300 square feet, WHATEVER, small. SO..... I make an opening somewhere in it and put corn or feed out in it. THEY WILL EAT IT. THEY WILL FIND IT. NO QUESTION. Maybe some mineral, attractant, WHATEVER...... So...... I go by these tall milo/sorghum small plots every few weeks.... Spray the piss out of it with Permithrin. All the stalks and growth. It would stay on there for weeks, EASY. Wouldn't destroy all the insects on my farm, just that little area. So.... The deer walk in and out of those milo/sorghum/egyptian wheat spots.... They brush against all the plants to get to food. They get Permithrin on them going in and out. LOW COST, LOW RISK (essentially little to no harm to anything) & I'll bet you a nickel this would work. Especially if you all know how amazing Permithrin is on insects like ticks, flies, etc. That's ONE idea I'm gonna work off of, trial. Don't cost squat to do this either and won't take hardly any time at all. So easy. Worth a shot!!! Could do same thing putting feed/corn by a path through corn field, maybe fence opening where something there to rub against deer, whatever. The Egyptian wheat thicket may be one ticket that might help though, big time and cheap, easy.
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I hope you're joking, Permethrin is toxic to aquatic life and is a restricted use substance according to the EPA. Although I doubt it would last long enough to leach into your water, it would probably affect your honey bee population negatively as well. I wouldn't think it would be good for deer to ingest it or have it come in contact with their eyes either.
 
meyeri said:
I hope you're joking, Permethrin is toxic to aquatic life and is a restricted use substance according to the EPA. Although I doubt it would last long enough to leach into your water, it would probably affect your honey bee population negatively as well. I wouldn't think it would be good for deer to ingest it or have it come in contact with their eyes either.
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It's been used on cattle, goats, horses, dogs, people's clothes, etc, etc etc for decades.

"Unfortunately" it's used in mass sprayings on every thing from fields of alfalfa to many other things. I don't like killing bees either. It's far better than the bee killers which bring insecticides back to hives though. Permethrin spot treated is "not very harmful" imo & from a whole lot of reading I've done & research I've looked at. I'm not putting it in my water systems and what u are referring to is guys using permethrin to treat waterways. What I am referencing above is 1/100,000th of what it's used for around the country. Im talking extremely minimal use. One idea and far far worse insecticides and mass use of them exist & are used all over unfortunately.
 
Fair enough, you've done your research and due diligence on the topic. Not trying to be a jack wagon; just concerned anytime chemicals come into the mix. Ever looked into CO2 traps for ticks?
 
Ya- i think it's good for backyard stuff. Etc. farm wide- so different.
Here's where a lot of research comes on this subject..... out east where high populations of people and deer intermix- Lyme's disease is severe. Rampid horrid problems. So- counties out there or with state funds, buy systems to put small amounts of permethrin in the deer (previous link a few pages in)- 4poster feeder or whatever. Getting a small amount of permethrin on Deer. If u can do it- it will rid deer of ticks and also impact tick population.
Again, anything I'm saying on Permethrin is in tiny tiny tiny amounts and environmental impact is almost non-existent it's so small.

On a "larger scale" fields sprayed with it are not great for bees and I'm not a fan. On a "medium scale"...... deer breedera across the country almost all use a fogger or something like the "Guardian mister" which sprays on a time schedule with nozzles surrounding pen and puts a light mist of permethrin on deer & in pen. Very effective & I have read nothing where it's been harmful to deer. Yes- bees in that pen alone would not be in good shape. But still pretty minor big picture. No harm to deer though or I haven't read anything that has any issue. On the other hand- harm to deer from ticks, ehd/midges (death), fly stress is a big deal.

When discussing bees- permethrin like this is not a problem what-so-ever VS the big ones like treated seeds, insecticides by airplane or massive sprayings. Malathion, perythrins at wide large use and then u have an insecticide by Bayer I believe where the bees can bring it back to hive- hives die. Neonicotinoids I believe are the ones that contribute to colony collapse. ya, nasty sad stuff out there but permethrin application for deer is .000000000000000001% of the problem compared to some massive farming practices

This is also coming from a guy that uses many organic pest solutions and has about 155 acres in Pollinator program :)
 
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Well- ehd or not- not a fan of this. I got the deer gobbling up garlic and light amounts of sulfur right now in a mix I put out Mix has all sorts of other stuff if u read the earlier mineral I got. Coat it with molasses. Etc.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-bulk-granulated-garlic-25-lb/102707696.html

this map likely has some of us frustrated. I always expect to have years like this. Still frustrating.
 
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Sligh1 said:
Been doing as much research as I can. Is there a SOLUTION to EHD? Absolutely nothing concrete for sure. Especially in wild applications. I've asked some Experts and Veterinarians I know about some practical ideas... I've also asked them about what some deer breeders do (effectively) for pen raised deer and whether anything can be replicated in wild settings that's practical (won't kill you for time or $).... Interesting. Here's an UPDATE..... **NOT SAYING ANYTHING HERE IS SETTLED SCIENCE, I want anyone to do their own research and come up with their own opinions, etc.
1) Ticks are going to be BAD this year. Mild winter. I was talking to one buddy who is a Veterinarian who works with deer, horses, cows, etc. Said tick infestation alone, when really bad, can reduce deer body weight & rack size, easily by 15%+ on average if they infest deer. Or worse. Stuff like "Permithrin" & minerals have benefits to both Ticks & Midges.... Ticks are generally bad in ALL WAYS (parasites, suck deer dry, transmit Lyme's to people, etc). Midges bite deer and transmit EHD.

link here for A treatment idea....
http://www.crdaniels.com/4poster .... Creating or buying feeding station that has "paint rollers" on it that you treat with Permithrin or a "tickicide" - deer eat from it, get insecticide on necks, ears, etc- keeps ticks and insects off and kills them for a while, also reducing population. I actually read some studies.... Some were "REALLY GOOD" some were "iffy". But, it sure is "common sense" and somewhat practical. Could make it yourself possibly. I honestly think you could put mineral in instead of corn but who knows. For sure gets me THINKING.

2) Minerals. I used to use Pro-Phos 8 by land 'o lakes. I believe in this so much, IMO & experience, I can't explain. Rack size, adding mass, kickers, droptines, etc - it's sick. Deer with faces in it all summer for a few seasons, OMG, the increases I see are sick VS what I've watched for 20 years vs deer that don't have minerals they need (deficiencies on phosphorous, calcium, etc). Or- what the average 2-4 year olds looked like on XYZ farm BEFORE doing this VS 2-3 years later - good gosh, HUGE difference, IMO. Improving health, immune systems, etc - has same thing & reasons cattle guys give to cows year round. & Vitamin & mineral defiencies happen in people, cattle, deer, etc, no question about it. Purina quit making pro-phos 8 (owns land o lakes) and have a CLOSE product now.... Either Fescue Pro Mineral 8 or Regular Pro Mineral 8 (Fescue has a little more for mineral on immune boosting, etc) but essentially both are darn close. 8% phosphorous (most areas being phosphorous deficient), and all the minerals I could dream up + Molasses to attract. Product codes, regular: 3003534-106 and fescue: 3003536-106. I ALSO DO A BLOCK AT EACH AREA that's same ingredients. one block & 1-2 bags loose mineral.
View attachment 113877

3) Additives.... Do your own readings on the benefits of Garlic & Sulfur for: resistance to deer being bitten by flies, ticks, midges, etc. & the benefits of garlic by possibly "increasing immune system"??? Benefits, data, effectiveness (or possibility of it) go above my head. Getting deer to eat it..... I got extra "dried molasses" in 50 lbs bags. & jugs of it in liquid to experiment. Sulfur needs to be put down in "correct ratios", Garlic doesn't need to be that carefully figured. Way way more info out there or thinking on this one could do. BTW- bulk bag of powder garlic & feed grade sulfur are both readily available and cheap.

4) Keys to POSSIBLE resistance to midges, flies, ticks AND also fending off through immune system: information that talked about making sure your minerals had correct amounts (or had it period) of: Selenium, Vitamin E, B12 (COBALT to make simple), etc. Mineral above obviously has all those.

Could these help? That's up to your thoughts & research. Weighing ups and downs, no brainer to me. All the benefits, no brainer. Some of the other stuff.... sulfur, garlic & trying to treat deer somehow with insecticide, I'm gonna try. It's gotta be practical, no question. Open to anyone's ideas, no doubt!!!!! No silver bullet, I get it- probably never will be. I lost 26 bucks 2 years ago though on one farm alone (yes, this was EHD.... not hunting, bullets/arrows, car accidents, etc) & I'm not gonna sit back and do NOTHING. I fully realize 99% of farms - folks are gonna let "nature take its course" - I get it & understand their feelings and every "so many years" a wave is gonna come through and wipe the place out or hit it hard. I guess I'm not going down that road & it's not an acceptable stance I'll take, especially if I can make other benefits in addition to possibly keeping some more deer from being infested with insects that suck em dry or kill em. I'm talking about, IMO - fairly minor intervention against this cruel part of nature. I personally made my mind up, if there's a "little bit" I can do to not see a repeat of "26 dead bucks" on one farm again, I'm gonna try and help the situation. & yes, I know EHD for one runs in cycles & hits in pockets. I also did find out that there's a strong relation between high levels of cattle in your area, transporting in NEW CATTLE (from down south for example) & an increase in EHD (which is very UN-NATURAL in our wild deer setting to have these things brought in and all that comes with them).
I think there's a huge lack of knowledge on EHD, almost like I think we have a ton to learn about CWD. I personally think there's doable solutions that are PRACTICAL, EASY & NOT HIGH COST where benefit far outweighs the risk BUT that's my opinion and I sure don't want to tell anyone else what to do or feel like there's a magic solution. I PERSONALLY AM OPEN TO ANY OTHER PRACTICAL & EFFECTIVE IDEAS for ticks, immune system support, "natural" ways to fend off midges, treatments, whatever.
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I think you are really on to something about the proximity of cattle to pockets of EHD. As we all know EHD midge needs mud to thrive. I'm sure you are aware of the difference in appearance of a pond that has no cattle around it opposed to one that cattle have free access to. Cattle ponds are always muddy. A deer walks up to a pond and drinks. a cow goes in neck deep and wallows in it. They create mud slides on the banks and their footprints fill with water and create thousands of miniature larvae nurseries. cattle are also carriers of the disease. A friend of mine had a very pocketed patch of EHD in 2015. he found 7 EHD killed deer on a little over 20 acres. he came to find out that his neighbor's bull died of EHD around the same time. It's not a coincidence IMO. Even if you think about a guy like Mark Drury who had a massive die off in 2012...his farm is surrounded by cattle on 3 sides. It doesn't matter how much he does on his property to try to prevent it... a deer can take one trip across the fence and drink out of the cattle pond and get EHD. An opposite example is one farm I hunt. It is a working 460 acre cattle farm. but the farmer has fenced off all the ponds. The cows cannot access them. none of the ponds are muddy. the grass grows all the way to the waters edge. The creeks running through the property are all limestone/shale bottom, so once again, no mud. The deer density in the immediate area is stupid...I bet its over 75 per square mile. that tells me the herd has not suffered a bout of EHD in a very long time...if ever. Coincidence?
 
Boonerville - although I have no scientific studies to back me, I too am of the opinion that EHD is tied to cattle in the area. (For the contrarions...I am not saying that a given deer will get EHD just because there are cattle nearby and I am not saying that a given deer will not get EHD just because there are no cattle around, I am talking in generalities only.)

But back a few years ago where many, many people were finding scads of dead deer from EHD...we found nary a one. Sure, we didn't grid search the whole farm, so something could have happened that we just didn't find, but with so, so many others finding in some cases several dozen dead ones, we found it very odd that we found none. BUT...our neighborhood has very few cattle around...so maybe that was a factor. I tend to think it was, because as near as we could tell...we had every other factor present, but had markedly better luck with avoiding EHD kills.
 
Daver said:
Boonerville - although I have no scientific studies to back me, I too am of the opinion that EHD is tied to cattle in the area. (For the contrarions...I am not saying that a given deer will get EHD just because there are cattle nearby and I am not saying that a given deer will not get EHD just because there are no cattle around, I am talking in generalities only.)

But back a few years ago where many, many people were finding scads of dead deer from EHD...we found nary a one. Sure, we didn't grid search the whole farm, so something could have happened that we just didn't find, but with so, so many others finding in some cases several dozen dead ones, we found it very odd that we found none. BUT...our neighborhood has very few cattle around...so maybe that was a factor. I tend to think it was, because as near as we could tell...we had every other factor present, but had markedly better luck with avoiding EHD kills.
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Very interesting. That is precisely my point. Nothing can conclusively say that cattle cause EHD in deer herds, but I think it happens too often to be merely coincidence. It's odd to me that I have not heard any of the mainstream "experts" pick up on this phenomenon.
 
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