No till drill but poor results

[MN Slick]

Trying to figure why we had poor germination and growth. Lick Creek fall mix was drilled around 9/1, got a couple light rains the week after then 1" on 9/9. Plot was sprayed late July so some of the grasses greened back up at the time of plantting. Gly was sprayed right after planting.

The only thing I can come up with is Gly doesn't touch the grasses and they hampered germ and growth. I know there is some sedge of some sort on the low side of the plot but anyone know what this stuff is? It's quite prevalent. It's wispy and stays short.

Any other thoughts on what may have happened. Drill seemed to function just fine and all seeds we're 1/2" or less deep. Rain was adequate.

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[Kaleb]

My guess is .5” is too deep for that seed along with too long waiting after spraying to plant


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[Tim Hull]

What is in the mix?

 

[MN Slick]

What is in the mix?

Rye, oats, radish, red clover. 1/2" would be Max depth it was planted. There is definitely evidence of all seed germinating but just not much growth. Far less germ where the carpet of wispy grass is.

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[mrush]

How think was the dead grass residue when you planted into it? I’ve had similar trouble and found that once the is residue shrinks up you will have better luck. Thick residue prevents sun from getting to the newly germinated seedlings. There may also have been some gly residue left over in the dead grass that washed onto the new seedlings?


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[hillrunner]

I agree with above, looks to me like the old residue may have been the issue, acting like mulch in a garden. Maybe needed a burn ahead of seeding?
It sounds like you only used gly so you shouldn't of had a residual issue with your herbicide unless you had some 24d or something along those lines in the tank.

 

[MN Slick]

Maybe my expecations for no till are too high. I didn't feel the thatch was too thick and thought mulch was good as it keeps moisture and suppresses weeds. All part of the learning curve but I sure hope thatch was not my issue. My long term plan was to plant through my green cover crop then spray after planting and walk away.

 

[hillrunner]

Maybe my expecations for no till are too high. I didn't feel the thatch was too thick and thought mulch was good as it keeps moisture and suppresses weeds. All part of the learning curve but I sure hope thatch was not my issue. My long term plan was to plant through my green cover crop then spray after planting and walk away.

Hopefully some of the guys with no till drills will respond here. When I see farmers planting into a cover crop, they are using a planter with row cleaners. That leaves the rows open to the sun and the cover crop acts as a mulch between the rows. The thatch is good between the rows as it will do like you said, hold moisture and suppress weeds. But I don't see how it wouldn't suppress what you plant as well if it's on top of it.
My experience on a no till drill is limited so hopefully someone who has been using one for a while will chime in.

 

[mrush]

This is one week old rye drilled into dead grass at 1/4 inch depth. The grass was mowed 5 weeks before planting and sprayed 4 weeks before playing. The time in between gave the grass time to shrink up. I did the same thing on a different field but only waiting 1 week after mowing to spray and plant and had poor germination.


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[Farm boy]

First off no till is not a 100% and your golden, but it can be done very successfully.
We farm for a living and also do food plots, Just like anything there is learning curve.
1. We always kill off before we plant so the roots have time to die and let loose of the soil.
2. Yes we do use row cleaners when planting into corn stubble but not into bean stubble , fine line of how much residue you can get away with.
3. Very important to keep the soil in shape and mellow.
4. When doing no till you need a no till planter that is set up to handle the no-till application, that would be not only to keep the seed at the right depth but to close the soil back up.
If soil is not closed and certain herbicides hit the open seed the seed is toast.

 

[Sligh1]

Looking at pics..... did drill cut through the trash efficiently ? At a glance- just looks like it didn’t get cut through and into soil for good soil to seed contact.
On the weeds... 2 sprayings usually does it. U might have simply had a ton of weed seed there. & if ur planted seeds don’t take - weed pressure be worse.

 

[Daver]

Hopefully some of the guys with no till drills will respond here. When I see farmers planting into a cover crop, they are using a planter with row cleaners. That leaves the rows open to the sun and the cover crop acts as a mulch between the rows. The thatch is good between the rows as it will do like you said, hold moisture and suppress weeds. But I don't see how it wouldn't suppress what you plant as well if it's on top of it.
My experience on a no till drill is limited so hopefully someone who has been using one for a while will chime in.

I am also not an expert on all things no till, and I don't have a no till drill, but I continue each year to try to do more no till and so I have scraped my knee a few times now in doing so and consequently do know some things...I think. But too much thatch seems to me to be a definite negative factor, one that I stumbled over a couple of times this year. I think Hillrunner's advice above is right on.

 

[turkeyriver]

Long time no-tiller here,both as a farmer and food plotter. The grass that is growing back is proof that you didn't get the sod killed completely. It's either bromegrass or bluegrass or both as near as I can tell from your pics. Completely killing old established sod is very tough to do the same year as planting your food plot unless you deep plow. Timing is everything. HEAVY R'up spray in June. Burn off after it browns. Then another R'up spray after green starts up should do the trick. It's amazing how much R'up established grass will absorb before it dies. The thatch is pretty thick from your pics and brassicas don't like that thick cover. They WILL NOT grow if the grass is still alive. Rye will grow in thick cover, but not very well if the grass is alive. Don't give up on the no-till, it works beautifully but you have to know what you can get away with. Once the grass is dead and the thick thatch is gone, everything will work.

 

[MN Slick]

Thanks guys, great info. Sure sounds like a combo of thatch and live grass at time of my planting stifled me. Sounds like I can shelf my plant into cover crop and spray plan too which is ok. We will get back on our normal plan of spraying 2 weeks before planting. Learning curve for sure. What sucks is a guy only gets a couple chances to learn a year.

 

[MN Slick]

Long time no-tiller here,both as a farmer and food plotter. The grass that is growing back is proof that you didn't get the sod killed completely. It's either bromegrass or bluegrass or both as near as I can tell from your pics. Completely killing old established sod is very tough to do the same year as planting your food plot unless you deep plow. Timing is everything. HEAVY R'up spray in June. Burn off after it browns. Then another R'up spray after green starts up should do the trick. It's amazing how much R'up established grass will absorb before it dies. The thatch is pretty thick from your pics and brassicas don't like that thick cover. They WILL NOT grow if the grass is still alive. Rye will grow in thick cover, but not very well if the grass is alive. Don't give up on the no-till, it works beautifully but you have to know what you can get away with. Once the grass is dead and the thick thatch is gone, everything will work.

Great info, thank you. I was thinking of planting soybeans in the spring just so I could hit it multiple times with gly hoping it and the shade would kill the grass but it sounds like another failure in the making.

 

[turkeyriver]

FYI. My food plot rotation is half the plot winter rye and half the plot brassicas. Frost seed red clover in March after the brassicas or if you don't get that done, drill oats. Mow the red clover/oats once or twice in the summer and kill it with R'up beginning of August. Drill rye end of August, first of Sept. The rye side will grow like gangbusters in the spring and deer and turkeys love it because it's the first green food out there. Mow it the day it starts to head out. That should kill it. Usually end of June. May be earlier or later depending on weather. I have frost seeded clover into the rye with good results. Usually the rye gives good soil cover but a few weeds will grow in the weeks before you want to plant brassicas, the end of July. Spray R'up 10 days -2 weeks before you drill brassicas. Be ready for the weather to screw things up! A couple years it was too wet to get the rye mowed on time and got too mature. Then I had a huge crop of straw that couldn't decompose quick enough before I drilled the brassicas and i had to burn the straw off first. Last couple years has been so wet, things have been tough to get done, but no-tilling made it possible to plant. You can't till mud but you can no-till into NEAR mud and get good results.

 

[turkeyriver]

Just one more FYI. The optimum time to plant rye is different from brassicas by about a month. Sept. 1 is perfect for rye, but not for brassicas. They will grow, but don't have time to get full growth if planted that late.

 

[MN Slick]

FYI. My food plot rotation is half the plot winter rye and half the plot brassicas. Frost seed red clover in March after the brassicas or if you don't get that done, drill oats. Mow the red clover/oats once or twice in the summer and kill it with R'up beginning of August. Drill rye end of August, first of Sept. The rye side will grow like gangbusters in the spring and deer and turkeys love it because it's the first green food out there. Mow it the day it starts to head out. That should kill it. Usually end of June. May be earlier or later depending on weather. I have frost seeded clover into the rye with good results. Usually the rye gives good soil cover but a few weeds will grow in the weeks before you want to plant brassicas, the end of July. Spray R'up 10 days -2 weeks before you drill brassicas. Be ready for the weather to screw things up! A couple years it was too wet to get the rye mowed on time and got too mature. Then I had a huge crop of straw that couldn't decompose quick enough before I drilled the brassicas and i had to burn the straw off first. Last couple years has been so wet, things have been tough to get done, but no-tilling made it possible to plant. You can't till mud but you can no-till into NEAR mud and get good results.

Darn straight the weather will screw it up. I'm 6 hours away so timing is always an issue for our plots. I've got a guy to mow and spray so that helps a ton but he's busy and battles the weather like everyone else.

 

[Farm boy]

First off no till is not a 100% and your golden, but it can be done very successfully.
We farm for a living and also do food plots, Just like anything there is learning curve.
1. We always kill off before we plant so the roots have time to die and let loose of the soil.
2. Yes we do use row cleaners when planting into corn stubble but not into bean stubble , fine line of how much residue you can get away with.
3. Very important to keep the soil in shape and mellow.
4. When doing no till you need a no till planter that is set up to handle the no-till application, that would be not only to keep the seed at the right depth but to close the soil back up.
If soil is not closed and certain herbicides hit the open seed the seed is toast.

 

[Farm boy]

Don't beat yourself up too bad, remember this is a learning curve.
As earlier stated remember spray kill, spray kill. You have a lot more leeway with no-till as you do with tilled ground as far as getting the crop in, that is a huge factor being 6 hours away.
Keep at it