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One buck argument for Troubled states ….

Sligh1

Sligh1

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Staff member
Good faith debate or discussion. & yes, I am widely framing this for states with REAL PROBLEMS to complete train wrecks….. MI, WI, MN, MO, IL, etc. The main issues, IMO, in most these states: early gun season, multiple bucks per person, crossbows during archery & corn piles. IMO- those 4 things are the absolute biggest disasters states can implement to implode the system, get folks to quit, destroying quality of herd & age class, locking up more land, not be able to control does being shot on regions, etc, etc.
In those states …. 4 months of deer season or more. Every technology known to man has been ok’d & added in most those states in last 25 years: crossbows during rut, rifles, cell cams, unlimited or almost unlimited NR tags they can sell, etc.

My question or proposal as one major step to fix it: 1 buck & as many does as needed in the counties that are “overpopulated”. For example…. A hunter could have this experience… “I shoot one buck in Michigan, I go to the lower 1/3rd of the state to shoot 3 does for my freezer. If I need to shoot another buck, I drive to: IN, WI, OH, etc”. My question is this…. How isn’t that enough? In states with real problems. 1 buck…. You got your “trophy” or your “male deer”. Then- dude that needs meat, there you go, 3 more does for the freezer with the buck = 4 deer per person. Seriously- how isn’t that enough for anyone?!!?!? & if it’s not for some random dude- go drive to your neighboring state.
This would alleviate: pressure on bucks & getting a lot more to a reasonable balanced age class. It would put focus on does in areas folks quit shooting them (“don’t wanna screw up my chances at a buck!!”). Reduce how much land is leased & locked up & help access issues. Will improve the quality & balance of the resource. Would keep the serious hunters engaged & not leaving because “my state sucks”. If cases of management bucks- take kids or the countless amount of people desperate for place to hunt.
if you live in some super north area… 1 buck should be the limit anyway & it’s wise to not shoot does & to travel south. This counters & gives relief to the insane killing of rifles in middle of rut or crossbows in archery. Or 50 gazillion gun seasons & every technology known to man to kill bucks. Alleviates it. After that- of course- these early gun seasons need to go!
But…. On the one buck for a lot of states out there (plus 2, 5, 10 (some places will say no limit!) Does for the freezer)- HOW ISN’T THAT ENOUGH??? But…. what’s your thoughts?
 
For MI
We need does SHOT.
way to many does in most of the lower, not the case for the UP.
My family, kids and grands , we have a 1 buck rule, every one must take at least 1 doe .

I have talked to way too many that just set and wait for the buck to show and pretty soon it's dark and go home with nothing, then on the last day and guess what still no doe shot.
Reason I lease this ground and I want a buck

There r a few that fill freezer with does not many but some. I let them Shoot does on my property to help keep r heard in check.

As far as getting a buck to a balanced age.
Very hard in MI to many times hunters r not on the same page .
If I let this buck walk the neighbors shoots him and so very true.
This is a hard 1 to get people on board to agree on each others goals.
I will not comment or debate this last paragraph.
To each his own is what some of this is.
 
Farm boy said:
For MI
We need does SHOT.
way to many does in most of the lower, not the case for the UP.
My family, kids and grands , we have a 1 buck rule, every one must take at least 1 doe .

I have talked to way too many that just set and wait for the buck to show and pretty soon it's dark and go home with nothing, then on the last day and guess what still no doe shot.
Reason I lease this ground and I want a buck

There r a few that fill freezer with does not many but some. I let them Shoot does on my property to help keep r heard in check.

As far as getting a buck to a balanced age.
Very hard in MI to many times hunters r not on the same page .
If I let this buck walk the neighbors shoots him and so very true.
This is a hard 1 to get people on board to agree on each others goals.
I will not comment or debate this last paragraph.
To each his own is what some of this is.
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Where abouts in MI are you out of curiosity? Are you a farmer?
I only ask bc I live near Grand Rapids and hunt here along with a family farm in southern mi almost to the Indiana border (very good hunting “for michigan”). I don’t feel there is some urgent need to kill a bunch of does but I’m sure there are areas that could use it.

One buck in MI would be awesome. Would have to think it would all but guarentee a better age structure and probably leads to a few more does being killed as guys want to kill something and hear their gun go bang but can’t do it on a second buck. Win win imo. Would love to see it.
 
Rous14 said:
Where abouts in MI are you out of curiosity? Are you a farmer?
I only ask bc I live near Grand Rapids and hunt here along with a family farm in southern mi almost to the Indiana border (very good hunting “for michigan”). I don’t feel there is some urgent need to kill a bunch of does but I’m sure there are areas that could use it.

One buck in MI would be awesome. Would have to think it would all but guarentee a better age structure and probably leads to a few more does being killed as guys want to kill something and hear their gun go bang but can’t do it on a second buck. Win win imo. Would love to see it.
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Between GR and muskegon.
Yes I am a farmer,
With lots of crop damage from deer.
Way to many does
 
OK, will chime in on this.
I'm only speaking for the Nw 1/4 of Mn.
There are MANY opportunities to hunt here with a door knock. Problem is, this generation is just to afraid of DOING IT!. Social media has all but killed human face to face interactions.
I've personally given up a few 1000s acres of PRIME (private) land in the past few years.
I used to be the greediness S.O.B. you can imagine! I had the knack of getting permission to hunt properties no one else could. Im not talking small 10 acre pieces but 100s of acres of prime riverbottom.
Not sure why?

A good majority, I'd never even hunt but felt good knowing these properties were mine and mine only. I'm ashamed to say, my greed/ antics no doubt kept several/ many others from getting into hunting.

Fast forwards to now. I've given names/ numbers to quite a few people that are interested in hunting but they WONT call the landowner ! I've had many discussions with multiple landowners thanking them for the past permission but I'm no longer gonna hunt there so please give permission to someone else.
Most seldom get asked?

# 1 reason for dwindling hunter #s is lack of acsess. And not because it's not there, it's because of those like ME ( the way I used to be).:mad:
People need to get off thier phones and go TALK to people!.


No baiting is allowed in Mn (thank God) but...., I walk many miles in the winter hunting coyotes and come across MANY enclosed blinds and the first thing I look for is.." where was the bait pile".?
It's like 100% I can see where it was.;)

Yep, illegal but seldom enforced.
Here is my observation. Once you/ me/ anyone is given permission (free) and you/ me go through the expenses/ time to build and enclosed blind, it 10x̌s the feeling of " this place is MINE"... and will/ do become an asshole to anyone else coming near it. FACT!.

I was a staunch hater of crossbows up untill just a few years ago (unless elderly or physically handicapped). My stance has changed on that topic a bit.
Reason being is....., gun hunting around here has become almost non e:)xistence to what it was up untill 15 years ago or so.
Unless a sever winter sets in and knocks down the population, we NEED hunters to control our deer herd. The ONE MAJOR gripe I have with new hunters that start with a crossbow is...., it damnear ingrained in thier minds that they HAVE TO BE in an enclosed blind overlooking a foodplot!

It's as though they want to skip all/ everything that makes a true hunter a HUNTER.

have a couple more things to add to this topic Skip started but I'm gonna finish my beer, eat some tasty Bear Brats for supper.
 
MI is in free fall collapse for hunting. Had a call from MI legislator a month or so ago discussing iowa regs & the problems MI has. There’s a HUUUUGGGGEEEE group of people from hunters to dnr to legislators that see the massive problems MI has. They are TRYING to come up with solutions. 1 buck is a HUGE relief to those problems. Why anyone in MI “NEEDS” to shoot 2 bucks is beyond me. & still to this day- most those dudes are shooting all 1 & 2 year old bucks …. 2 of em?!?! While there’s pockets filled with does no one will shoot!! Oh my gosh!!!
I’ve hunted from the bottom county of MI into the UP & everywhere in between …. The lower peninsula has countless pockets where few does get shot & its out of hand. Dinker bucks that all get shot & no does get shot. Silly. Also pockets with low deer #’s where guys over did it. For sure needs to be managed like iowa at a county level or maybe even more granular since there’s so much area & deer habitat. UP…. So few deer it’s sad. Areas I been to- last 30 years- no point in even hunting. I’d feel guilty shooting a deer there. 1 buck & no does in the UP. It’s bad!!!!

That state has lost 1/3rd of hunters in 25 years. Their new hunters quit or don’t go and don’t have access to quality hunting & management. When MI says “50% of hunters quit”…. Which they are trending that direction…. A huge shift is gonna take place…. Like they could do the worst thing and say “gun season 2 months long” or something crazy. Or they will be forced to make a quality of the resource improvement like one buck. I predict right here- they will be forced to change. The OLD MI approach would be the first option: “we’ll just make gun season way way way longer” & it’ll make it worse. Second actually has merit behind it… 1 buck & then focus on does. When quality & balance improve & guys tagged out- more folks will get back in. Access gets better & it’ll start fixing itself. Deer hunting in MI is either gonna run off a cliff in the next 10-15 years or they will finally try a different tactic (VS Insane approaches of past) & start fixing it. One or the other for MI. What’s going on TODAY - is on verge of collapse & will happen if they don’t make changes.

Again: how isn’t it enough to say PER HUNTER: 1 buck & 2, 5 or 10 does?????? In my mind it’s so obvious & no one needs more than that. Especially in a state like that where their system IS NOT WORKING!!!! The only logic for 2 bucks I can honestly see in those states: 1) me me me me me me me me me 2) you can’t take anything away from me me me me me me me me me 3) if i shoot a buck, I want to keep hunting! “But you can- for does!!!” - well, I want another buck because…. Ahhh, ummm, hmmmm, ahhh….. ME ME ME ME ME.
It’s laughable the stubborn selfish idiots in these ruined states that only think about themselves….. the 2 little bucks they “have to shoot” (grown men that have shot piles!) while their whole system collapses & they screw the kids & next generation out of the sport.

& I’m dead serious. With how bad it is, it’s mind boggling these states can’t see how much success their neighbors have from going to 1 buck…. OH, IN, KS, etc. Again- all the serious hunters leave their states or lock up as much land as possible anyways so maybe you could keep a few more around & have those that “NEED 2 bucks” drive to countless neighboring states to do it.
 
Sligh1 said:
MI is in free fall collapse for hunting. Had a call from MI legislator a month or so ago discussing iowa regs & the problems MI has. There’s a HUUUUGGGGEEEE group of people from hunters to dnr to legislators that see the massive problems MI has. They are TRYING to come up with solutions. 1 buck is a HUGE relief to those problems. Why anyone in MI “NEEDS” to shoot 2 bucks is beyond me. & still to this day- most those dudes are shooting all 1 & 2 year old bucks …. 2 of em?!?! While there’s pockets filled with does no one will shoot!! Oh my gosh!!!
I’ve hunted from the bottom county of MI into the UP & everywhere in between …. The lower peninsula has countless pockets where few does get shot & its out of hand. Dinker bucks that all get shot & no does get shot. Silly. Also pockets with low deer #’s where guys over did it. For sure needs to be managed like iowa at a county level or maybe even more granular since there’s so much area & deer habitat. UP…. So few deer it’s sad. Areas I been to- last 30 years- no point in even hunting. I’d feel guilty shooting a deer there. 1 buck & no does in the UP. It’s bad!!!!

That state has lost 1/3rd of hunters in 25 years. Their new hunters quit or don’t go and don’t have access to quality hunting & management. When MI says “50% of hunters quit”…. Which they are trending that direction…. A huge shift is gonna take place…. Like they could do the worst thing and say “gun season 2 months long” or something crazy. Or they will be forced to make a quality of the resource improvement like one buck. I predict right here- they will be forced to change. The OLD MI approach would be the first option: “we’ll just make gun season way way way longer” & it’ll make it worse. Second actually has merit behind it… 1 buck & then focus on does. When quality & balance improve & guys tagged out- more folks will get back in. Access gets better & it’ll start fixing itself. Deer hunting in MI is either gonna run off a cliff in the next 10-15 years or they will finally try a different tactic (VS Insane approaches of past) & start fixing it. One or the other for MI. What’s going on TODAY - is on verge of collapse & will happen if they don’t make changes.

Again: how isn’t it enough to say PER HUNTER: 1 buck & 2, 5 or 10 does?????? In my mind it’s so obvious & no one needs more than that. Especially in a state like that where their system IS NOT WORKING!!!! The only logic for 2 bucks I can honestly see in those states: 1) me me me me me me me me me 2) you can’t take anything away from me me me me me me me me me 3) if i shoot a buck, I want to keep hunting! “But you can- for does!!!” - well, I want another buck because…. Ahhh, ummm, hmmmm, ahhh….. ME ME ME ME ME.
It’s laughable the stubborn selfish idiots in these ruined states that only think about themselves….. the 2 little bucks they “have to shoot” (grown men that have shot piles!) while their whole system collapses & they screw the kids & next generation out of the sport.

& I’m dead serious. With how bad it is, it’s mind boggling these states can’t see how much success their neighbors have from going to 1 buck…. OH, IN, KS, etc. Again- all the serious hunters leave their states or lock up as much land as possible anyways so maybe you could keep a few more around & have those that “NEED 2 bucks” drive to countless neighboring states to do it.
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I see this behavior a lot, so hunter goes out opening weekend of gun season. Whacks a buck from 200 yards away on a running shot or quick decision. Gets up to the downed deer and guess what, ground shrinkage…. Hunter thinks to himself, “I can’t show this to my buddies or on FB, it’s a dink. So slap the wife’s tag on it or no tag and keep hunting. Last day of season rolls around, hunter has a tag burning a hole in his pocket, guess what, another 2.5 year old is out being stupid in the rut gun season and he shoots a second buck of the same size…. The me, me, me is greed. I would love to see one statewide buck tag in the states I hunt.
 
Pa always had a one buck/yr limit and added antler restrictions quite a few years ago. That made a huge difference in mature buck numbers. Back in the day we could only take one deer per year either a doe or a buck, that sucked. I think it's something the mid-west should do.
 
IMO we need it in Iowa and soon. I certainly appreciate you Skip and have much respect for your efforts and especially your ability to bring all groups together. I am still a bit leery of the ISC but you are making me question my bias with some organizations.

I am curious, do you see an opportunity with some of the old and ethically challenged leaving the state legislature? Sand may have an opportunity at the governors mansion but that may hinge on how well Feenstra does with the moderates. Sand being a bowhunter could be an ally perhaps??
 
madplotter said:
IMO we need it in Iowa and soon. I certainly appreciate you Skip and have much respect for your efforts and especially your ability to bring all groups together. I am still a bit leery of the ISC but you are making me question my bias with some organizations.

I am curious, do you see an opportunity with some of the old and ethically challenged leaving the state legislature? Sand may have an opportunity at the governors mansion but that may hinge on how well Feenstra does with the moderates. Sand being a bowhunter could be an ally perhaps??
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The ISC is the best group iowa has ever had…. Along with probably the IBA & a handful of others. Few reasons… 1) every dollar stays in state & basically no overhead. The labor & work done by all members are completely donated time, because they care. The time & effort people take- it actually costs them. 2) no group EVER has had “100% consensus”…. I’ve said this to every group I’ve ever spoke to, been involved in or supported…. No one is gonna ever agree on 100% of issues. Ever. If folks agree on 80% or more- you’re in a great place. If there’s folks who can’t have a disagreement & have a man-tantrum because they didn’t get their way on some issue … “take their ball & go home”… that’s just not the type of person that should be involved in anything that requires change…. Could be in a church, politics, wildlife organization, school, work- whatever- those type of people exist in any situation in life & generically - they can’t run the show because they don’t have the maturity & critical thinking for those situations. Disagreement is fine… it just has to be debated & discussed in a respectful manner & sometimes an individual might not get his/her way. 3) members guide ISC decisions. Non members won’t as much impact. Same with “ONE PERSON” …. If I wanted XYZ or anyone in ISC wanted XYZ…. Could be proposed but if vast majority don’t support it - won’t happen. Issues with overwhelming support will get worked on. Issues with a handful of loud man-childs or the few idiots on social media… nah. & keep in mind - anything anyone posts on social media (hunting or non hunting) - look at the replies…. There’s always a few knuckleheads that will counter anything. “We found a cure for cancer!!!”….. IDIOTS: “we are over populated, don’t cure it!!! OR… you are going to destroy the livelihood of cancer treatment centers!”
Hunters can’t all agree on things. & let’s be honest - there’s been a lot of hunters that wanted or went along with lunatic policies….. look at 95% of the Midwest states….. it’s been ruined!!!!! U try to fix it- ya, those clowns that ruined it are gonna have tantrums. There’s a substantial group of hunters that cannot think past themselves & can’t grasp anything that limits their ease of killing or ability to take take take.

I’ll say it…. There’s a point where things get so broken that there has to be some adults in the room. If it comes from folks that truly care with pure motives where it’s rooted in others, the future, kids & the resource - we need them!!! We need less of those where their motives are just: ME, $, make it easy, no care of others & future, selfish, etc. There’s 2 very distinct groups in hunting. The me me me group has dominated policy for 10-50 years (depending on the state) & we need a counter balance to that. Other states have had zero counter balance. Thank goodness for iowa having the IBA!!!! Make no mistake…. Without IBA (and now IBA & ISC)…. Iowa would have been completely ruined decades ago!!!!! Cut & dry, black & white FACT. These 2 groups are Iowa’s best hope to fight for what’s right & make iowa better for the everyday guy, kids & next generations.
 
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Sligh1 said:
The ISC is the best group iowa has ever had…. Along with probably the IBA & a handful of others. Few reasons… 1) every dollar stays in state & basically no overhead. The labor & work done by all members are completely donated time, because they care. The time & effort people take- it actually costs them. 2) no group EVER has had “100% consensus”…. I’ve said this to every group I’ve ever spoke to, been involved in or supported…. No one is gonna ever agree on 100% of issues. Ever. If folks agree on 80% or more- you’re in a great place. If there’s folks who can’t have a disagreement & have a man-tantrum because they didn’t get their way on some issue … “take their ball & go home”… that’s just not the type of person that should be involved in anything that requires change…. Could be in a church, politics, wildlife organization, school, work- whatever- those type of people exist in any situation in life & generically - they can’t run the show because they don’t have the maturity & critical thinking for those situations. Disagreement is fine… it just has to be debated & discussed in a respectful manner & sometimes an individual might not get his/her way. 3) members guide ISC decisions. Non members won’t as much impact. Same with “ONE PERSON” …. If I wanted XYZ or anyone in ISC wanted XYZ…. Could be proposed but if vast majority don’t support it - won’t happen. Issues with overwhelming support will get worked on. Issues with a handful of loud man-childs or the few idiots on social media… nah. & keep in mind - anything anyone posts on social media (hunting or non hunting) - look at the replies…. There’s always a few knuckleheads that will counter anything. “We found a cure for cancer!!!”….. IDIOTS: “we are over populated. OR. you are going to destroy the livelihood of cancer treatment centers!” Hunters can’t all agree on things. & let’s be honest - there’s been a lot of hunters that wanted or went along with lunatic policies….. look at 95% of the Midwest states….. it’s been ruined!!!!! U try to fix it- ya, those clowns that ruined it are gonna have tantrums.

I’ll say it…. There’s a point where things get so broken that there has to be some adults in the room. If it comes from folks that truly care with pure motives where it’s rooted in others, the future, kids & the resource - we need them!!! We need less of those where their motives are just: ME, $, make it easy, no care of others & future, selfish, etc. There’s 2 very distinct groups in hunting. The me me me group has dominated policy for 10-50 years (depending on the state) & we need a counter balance to that. Other states have had zero counter balance. Thank goodness for iowa having the IBA!!!! Make no mistake…. Without IBA (and now IBA & ISC)…. Iowa would have been completely ruined decades ago!!!!! Cut & dry, black & white FACT. These 2 groups are Iowa’s best hope to fight for what’s right & make iowa better for the everyday guy, kids & next generations.
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Absolutely the best take I have read. I bet most of us have volunteered time to school & rec activities so we can all appreciate everything you just posted. I better just join ISC.
 
We need a one buck limit if we want to at least maintain what we have, every year the overall quality is getting a little worse.
 
In my home state of MO.

It would save a fair portion of bucks prior to the rifle opener if guys don't get the " do over" of another tag for rifle. I bet the size of the bucks shot pre-rifle would jump considerably.
 
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