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Quality Deer Regulations for Missourians

deep woods goat hunter

deep woods goat hunter

PMA Member
Gents-
I have been working on this the last few days and networking with other organizatoins to network with to assemble an army.
If interested in joining pm me your email address and I will add you to email blast and the FB page I am building as well.
Looking for recommendations on a better name, so open to suggestions.


Good Afternoon,
I am putting together a coalition of like-minded whitetail hunters that are interested in promoting common sense legislative changes to deer seasons in MO.
The goal for the formation of this group is to accomplish two objectives:
  1. Achieve a balanced age structure within the Missouri Whitetail Deer Herd
    • How?
      • Moving the November Firearms Any Deer Season out of the peak of the whitetail rut.
    • Why?
      • Biologically balance the age structure of bucks within the herd, while still providing opportunities for firearms any deer hunting
  1. Return the resource of the Whitetail Deer to the People of Missouri
    • How?
      • Limit Non-Resident hunters to a combined 1 buck harvest (archery and/or firearm).
      • Increase Non-Resident permit prices to align with other midwestern states.
      • Institute limited quantity non-resident permit sales via draw with a reasonable amount of permits granted within each region of MO.
      • Common-Sense permit access for NR Landowners
    • Why?
      • Decrease hunter numbers on overcrowded public hunting areas statewide
      • Increase quality hunting opportunities on public and private hunting areas statewide
      • Increase new hunter recruitment and retention
      • Increasing NR permit prices and quality opportunity would replace lost revenue from selling fewer NR permits
FACTS
  1. A whitetail herd with a balanced age structure and access to high quality land is the #1 issue facing Missouri’s deer hunters.
    1. Balanced age structure is biologically healthier for the herd.
    2. A later firearms season achieves this while still providing excellent buck harvesting opportunities with firearms and taking as many does as needed.
  2. Midwestern states such as IA, KS, IL & OH are regarded as better managed states that are sought after by hunters for more a balanced age structures & quality access.
  1. Later Firearms Season
  2. Limited quantities and Higher prices for Non-Resident Permits
  1. Hunters not targeting mature age class deer will always have the opportunity to do so, even more so because less people will be harvesting the youngest deer in the herd during a later firearms season.
  2. Revenue will increase with a quality deer herd. Limiting the QUANTITY of NR tags will increase the QUALITY of hunting by reducing pressure on private and public lands.
  3. We are lobbying for these initiatives with no $ to be gained, those fighting back against these improvements for MISSOURIANS are special interest “Deer Pimps” out for their own special interests.
What do I need from you?
  • More Contact, Networking, Lobbying
    • Share contact info with me for like-minded hunters within your circle or mine with them.
      • Be sure to share this with contacts with unique abilities
        • Connections to politicians
        • Business Leaders
        • Abilities in Tech, Marketing, Social Media Skills etc
    • Request access to join the Facebook Page “Quality Deer Regulations for Missourians”
    • Recommend other organizations to partner with, even groups that might not normally align. We will be on same side of some of these issues. Examples: Farm & Conservation organizations want less NR ownership.
    • I will add to master email list to brainstorm ideas, update progress and network within the group.
    • Join the Conservation Federation of Missouri https://confedmo.org/ They are the most powerful body working in the best interest of Missourians with MDC regulation setting
      • I had a very good call with the executive director this morning and will be networking with their team to proposed resolution endorsed by CFM.
    • Find those in within MDC that support these issues. It’s likely very few willing to help but find those that do. Find partners in all areas.
I want to emphasize that there are many other issues that need addressed (CWD and beyond) in addition to the current objectives but these items are the most critical to improving the overall structure of the deer herd and quality hunting opportunities for Missourians.

MDC Permit Price Adjustments 2023
MDC is currently proposing increase to permit prices across the board. https://mdc.mo.gov/permits/permit-price-adjustments-2023
The official comment period is July 4 through August 2, 2023 you can mark your calendar and/or comment at the existing regulation comments link below on permit sales.
COMMENT HERE: https://mdc.mo.gov/form/existing-regulations-comments?regulation=251338
Feel free to cut and paste from the body of my email above to fill into the comments form.

Things to remember
  • Don’t get caught within this group debating every nitty gritty detail. No set of goals will have 100% of hunters agreeing with 100% of anything. Simple goals for the greatest impact & disregard nay sayers as they will always be there on ANY issue!
  • GROW!!!!!! Build members & the machine. Keep it going!!! DON’T GIVE UP!!!! If u let off gas or throw in towel after a year- won’t work. Have to push through for long haul. Years. It took years to ruin things. Will take years to fix it. If folks are not determined and willing to bring fight for years- won’t work. Must be in for long haul. Take defeats: learn from them, change, get back up and keep fighting. NEVER STOP!!!!
Blessings and Prayers

JC
 
Is there a breakdown of Missouri's historical harvest totals by permit type for Res/NR/NR landowners/Res LO and what was harvested on what permit?
I can't seem to find details, for example how many NR archery permits were sold to LO and NON-LO, and what did they harvest. It'd be interesting to know the expected impacts of whats being proposed. Also, out of the 1.5m deer in Missouri, what is the current estimated age structure? I would think all this information will be discussed at some point in the conversations, I was just wondering if you had it available to you presently?
 
Nice job! Also, having a great hunting state with a balanced age structure brings money and revenue to the state.. It brings a lot of extra money to the state with hunters buying houses, land, gas, food, and the list goes on and on. .. This is one aspect of great deer hunting you never hear much about, but adds up to big revenue for the state. Iowa is the best example.
 
MO is perhaps the most interesting of all states…. Probably because it’s sandwiched between 3 of the “perceived” best managed states: Iowa, Kansas and Illinois. In my strong opinion, MO a would beat all 3 by a long shot if regs got right!!!! Would destroy KS & IA because it has so much more habitat. Premium habitat with ag mixed in. Would smoke surrounding states.

All 3 surrounding have either late gun seasons or very short gun seasons. 2 of the 3 limit NR’s. All 3 have vastly higher NR tag costs.
& BTW- All 3 have a large swath of areas where hunters are complaining deer #’s are way too low. So anyone says a late gun or whatever will cause higher deer #’s is wrong for countless other reasons as well.


All 4 states, including MO, are being bombarded by NR’s fleeing their broken states. All 4 are suffering from lack of access to quality hunting land for residents!!!

Out of the 4- MO has the most potential. I’m right along the border all the time & well into MO often - absolutely, without question, the potential is out of this world!!! If common sense prevails & that gun season starts around when the neighbors do it. Period. & if 1 buck & NR access was limited - u are talking about iowa on steroids. Iowa x 5!!!! The #1 B&C state in country. A balanced age class. Opportunity for every level of hunter.

Hope it happens!!!! MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!! You all are going about this the right way!!! Ignore the nay sayers and keep going!!!! Love that u all are willing to Work at it, never give up and that will Make Missouri Great!!!!!!
 
I am on board with your ideals but what you need to think about is perspective…. To you and I more mature bucks is the goal but to the majority of deer hunters in MO to include both R and NR is the system is not broken. I looked into the numbers and there are not a lot of NRs taking more than one buck in MO already. I do feel age structure could improve with better scoring deer being a result but the majority of the people gun hunting WANT to hunt rutting bucks with a rifle. MO does not allow party hunting which IMO is the most effective harvest method for a non rut rifle season. Yes I know a pretty standing corn or bean plot is really good but Joe Weekend or Joe Public does not have that option. I think you would actually negatively affect hunter recruitment by moving the rifle season out of the rut and you would hurt revenue also because gun hunting the rut is the big draw for both R and NR. I am pulling for you but unfortunately MO deer regs are for Joe Weekend hunter or the two weekend gun hunter rather than mature deer with big racks. And it still produces good deer in the current system. Could it be better, YES. For my ideals but maybe not for Joe Rifle….. The transition you are proposing would be several years to come to fruition and most hunters want instant gratification. Example: If average Joe has a chance at a 130” deer and knows he has several that size in the garage but COULD hold off and hope that deer is 150 next year. I can tell you the answer but I’m guessing you know what the majority woul do. Gratification today don’t worry bout tomorrow mindset. Not a Naysayer just making sure those of us with big deer in our heads understand there are other viewpoints.
 
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deerdown said:
Is there a breakdown of Missouri's historical harvest totals by permit type for Res/NR/NR landowners/Res LO and what was harvested on what permit?
I can't seem to find details, for example how many NR archery permits were sold to LO and NON-LO, and what did they harvest. It'd be interesting to know the expected impacts of whats being proposed. Also, out of the 1.5m deer in Missouri, what is the current estimated age structure? I would think all this information will be discussed at some point in the conversations, I was just wondering if you had it available to you presently?
Click to expand...

Working on this data
I got the MDC biologists contact info to reach out to this morning. He’s out on vacation this week, so inplan to reach out Tuesday of next week.
Stay tuned


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Muskrat24 said:
I am on board with your ideals but what you need to think about is perspective…. To you and I more mature bucks is the goal but to the majority of deer hunters in MO to include both R and NR is the system is not broken. I looked into the numbers and there are not a lot of NRs taking more than one buck in MO already. I do feel age structure could improve with better scoring deer being a result but the majority of the people gun hunting WANT to hunt rutting bucks with a rifle. MO does not allow party hunting which IMO is the most effective harvest method for a non rut rifle season. Yes I know a pretty standing corn or bean plot is really good but Joe Weekend or Joe Public does not have that option. I think you would actually negatively affect hunter recruitment by moving the rifle season out of the rut and you would hurt revenue also because gun hunting the rut is the big draw for both R and NR. I am pulling for you but unfortunately MO deer regs are for Joe Weekend hunter or the two weekend gun hunter rather than mature deer with big racks. And it still produces good deer in the current system. Could it be better, YES. For my ideals but maybe not for Joe Rifle….. The transition you are proposing would be several years to come to fruition and most hunters want instant gratification. Example: If average Joe has a chance at a 130” deer and knows he has several that size in the garage but COULD hold off and hope that deer is 150 next year. I can tell you the answer but I’m guessing you know what the majority woul do. Gratification today don’t worry bout tomorrow mindset. Not a Naysayer just making sure those of us with big deer in our heads understand there are other viewpoints.
Click to expand...

Standby for this reply…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Muskrat24 said:
I am on board with your ideals but what you need to think about is perspective…. To you and I more mature bucks is the goal but to the majority of deer hunters in MO to include both R and NR is the system is not broken. I looked into the numbers and there are not a lot of NRs taking more than one buck in MO already. I do feel age structure could improve with better scoring deer being a result but the majority of the people gun hunting WANT to hunt rutting bucks with a rifle. MO does not allow party hunting which IMO is the most effective harvest method for a non rut rifle season. Yes I know a pretty standing corn or bean plot is really good but Joe Weekend or Joe Public does not have that option. I think you would actually negatively affect hunter recruitment by moving the rifle season out of the rut and you would hurt revenue also because gun hunting the rut is the big draw for both R and NR. I am pulling for you but unfortunately MO deer regs are for Joe Weekend hunter or the two weekend gun hunter rather than mature deer with big racks. And it still produces good deer in the current system. Could it be better, YES. For my ideals but maybe not for Joe Rifle….. The transition you are proposing would be several years to come to fruition and most hunters want instant gratification. Example: If average Joe has a chance at a 130” deer and knows he has several that size in the garage but COULD hold off and hope that deer is 150 next year. I can tell you the answer but I’m guessing you know what the majority woul do. Gratification today don’t worry bout tomorrow mindset. Not a Naysayer just making sure those of us with big deer in our heads understand there are other viewpoints.
Click to expand...
Yep - That will be the biggest challenge imo, convincing the regs makers to make a change for the minority. I would love to see bigger bucks roaming Mo but it's going to be a tough sell. I've followed DWGH posts on a couple forums, I think he's got the grit to make it happen if anyone can, the question is can anyone.
I'm a NR Mo landowner and support reduced NR tags and even an increase in NR permits costs. This idea is wildly popular with the Mo Res hunters, but as soon as you start talking about changing something that affects the Res rifle and Archery hunters, oh boy, the fireworks start. There will probably need to be some comparison data collected from states that had a firearm season in the rut, which they then moved the rifle season outside of the rut and what the comparable harvest data was between the 2 for the conversation. It would also be interesting to collect data on how many Res Archery hunters also buy rifle permits, I suspect a majority, and is this a net positive or a negative to moving the dates? Not sure.
Mo Dept of Conservation wants deer killed, the goal, as I see it, should be to change the kind of deer killed (less bucks) which means you probably need to kill more does, less immature bucks. How is that best accomplished would be my focus. I think changes that reduce the overall harvest will be viewed negatively by the MDC.
Could also suggest a Temporary OBR for residents in certain counties along with moving rifle season later. Say 3 years of OBR, then agree to liberalize the Res buck harvest. I think if Res hunters saw the quality of improvements that quickly, they'd be more willing to make some changes permanent whatever those might be. It's one of those lets open the eyes of others and see what's possible, but do it quickly.
Lots of things to consider and options with this one. I wish you luck DWGH, get it done!
 
Muskrat24 said:
I am on board with your ideals but what you need to think about is perspective…. To you and I more mature bucks is the goal but to the majority of deer hunters in MO to include both R and NR is the system is not broken. I looked into the numbers and there are not a lot of NRs taking more than one buck in MO already. I do feel age structure could improve with better scoring deer being a result but the majority of the people gun hunting WANT to hunt rutting bucks with a rifle. MO does not allow party hunting which IMO is the most effective harvest method for a non rut rifle season. Yes I know a pretty standing corn or bean plot is really good but Joe Weekend or Joe Public does not have that option. I think you would actually negatively affect hunter recruitment by moving the rifle season out of the rut and you would hurt revenue also because gun hunting the rut is the big draw for both R and NR. I am pulling for you but unfortunately MO deer regs are for Joe Weekend hunter or the two weekend gun hunter rather than mature deer with big racks. And it still produces good deer in the current system. Could it be better, YES. For my ideals but maybe not for Joe Rifle….. The transition you are proposing would be several years to come to fruition and most hunters want instant gratification. Example: If average Joe has a chance at a 130” deer and knows he has several that size in the garage but COULD hold off and hope that deer is 150 next year. I can tell you the answer but I’m guessing you know what the majority woul do. Gratification today don’t worry bout tomorrow mindset. Not a Naysayer just making sure those of us with big deer in our heads understand there are other viewpoints.
Click to expand...
Sure there will be other viewpoints, though other viewpoints you speak do not care enough to have a united voice behind "leave gun season where it is"

Where can you find data on the most recent survey on the season timing? I have a contact with MDC I will be emailing for some of that next week when he gets back from vacation. I talked to my area's private lands conservationist and he said the last survey conducted was in the early 2000s (when I was in middle school).

I would argue that younger hunters are more apt to be after mature deer than "got my buck".
As for gun hunting the rut being a draw for NR, I would disagree. The NR's I know would much rather hunt a herd with a balanced age structure.
Attitudes have changed since social media, the internet, TV hunters etc have come around and the next generation of deer hunters are more geared towards targeting mature deer.
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
Sure there will be other viewpoints, though other viewpoints you speak do not care enough to have a united voice behind "leave gun season where it is"

Where can you find data on the most recent survey on the season timing? I have a contact with MDC I will be emailing for some of that next week when he gets back from vacation. I talked to my area's private lands conservationist and he said the last survey conducted was in the early 2000s (when I was in middle school).

I would argue that younger hunters are more apt to be after mature deer than "got my buck".
As for gun hunting the rut being a draw for NR, I would disagree. The NR's I know would much rather hunt a herd with a balanced age structure.
Attitudes have changed since social media, the internet, TV hunters etc have come around and the next generation of deer hunters are more geared towards targeting mature deer.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree with statements above and I personally am in favor of what you are suggesting. The draw to MO is the ability to hunt decent to good deer during the rut with a rifle. I would not say that the majority of the young hunters I know in MO would give up their rifle rut hunting for a better chance for a better scoring bow buck which is essentially what is being proposed as moving the rifle season out of the rut will make killing mature deer more difficult for gun hunters which is why it is being proposed. If everyone had managed private ground and loved to bow hunt I think you are spot on but most don’t desire the time and effort to get close range for a bow shot when they can shoot a deer they are happy enough with now to pull the trigger. And BTW I don’t gun hunt any state but grew up in MO and buy NR archery license that I fill maybe every third year. I’m just suggesting what people will counter your arguments with. I have looked into what you are proposing IN DEPTH and if you dive into the numbers and pursue it with the majority point of view it is a HARD SELL IMO!
 
Another concern I have with the finite changes suggested is that nature has been altered. I am fortunate to hunt some better than average ground in MO where deer can reach over the hill maturity. The last two deer I have shot in MO were documented 7+ yo and the biggest scored high 160s. The expectation of making the proposed changes creating higher scoring deer is again relative. Will there be older age class deer, yes, will they be 200 inches, not many…..
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
Sure there will be other viewpoints, though other viewpoints you speak do not care enough to have a united voice behind "leave gun season where it is"

Where can you find data on the most recent survey on the season timing? I have a contact with MDC I will be emailing for some of that next week when he gets back from vacation. I talked to my area's private lands conservationist and he said the last survey conducted was in the early 2000s (when I was in middle school).

I would argue that younger hunters are more apt to be after mature deer than "got my buck".
As for gun hunting the rut being a draw for NR, I would disagree. The NR's I know would much rather hunt a herd with a balanced age structure.
Attitudes have changed since social media, the internet, TV hunters etc have come around and the next generation of deer hunters are more geared towards targeting mature deer.
Click to expand...
The last paragraph SCARES ME! Hunter numbers are decreasing exponentially compared to population growth. I have commented on this in other threads that we are narrow minded to solely support targeting big deer as the main stream hunting ideal because people with that mindset do not hunt public ground and our instant gratification society will lose interest in hunting QUICKLY and if the only desire is mature bucks once they are unsuccessful for a short period of time thus losing more of the backing of a hunters voice as a group. Again just my $.02…..
 
Muskrat24 said:
I respectfully disagree with statements above and I personally am in favor of what you are suggesting. The draw to MO is the ability to hunt decent to good deer during the rut with a rifle. I would not say that the majority of the young hunters I know in MO would give up their rifle rut hunting for a better chance for a better scoring bow buck which is essentially what is being proposed as moving the rifle season out of the rut will make killing mature deer more difficult for gun hunters which is why it is being proposed. If everyone had managed private ground and loved to bow hunt I think you are spot on but most don’t desire the time and effort to get close range for a bow shot when they can shoot a deer they are happy enough with now to pull the trigger. And BTW I don’t gun hunt any state but grew up in MO and buy NR archery license that I fill maybe every third year. I’m just suggesting what people will counter your arguments with. I have looked into what you are proposing IN DEPTH and if you dive into the numbers and pursue it with the majority point of view it is a HARD SELL IMO!
Click to expand...
I agree, it will initially, but if you can significantly change the age structure Quickly, then I think people will be more accepting and flexible in making changes permanently in the future. Not knowing harvest numbers by permit by res/NR, by those who gun&rifle hunt I can't guess what the current proposals might mean. It's important to know that data to formulate the propsals and expected impacts. However, I think the data will show that Residents have to participate with some concessions that are proposed as temporary to allow everyone to see the benefits in a short amount of time. If it takes 7-10 years before most folks see a marginal change to the age structure, or if estimates from biologists determine that's the likely outcome, people might be less willing to accept even a trial period proposal. I think it needs to be a "Shock and Awe" result. People do want instant gratification, 3 years to see a good number of mature deer might be acceptable to many. while 7-10 years would be a lifetime for some. .02
 
Another thing - if the results of a survey will be the means of getting reg changes done, I think a biologists' writeup of the expected impacts from each proposal will be required to educate those taking the survey of what to expect from each proposed change.

Without that, if the question is just on the survey like: Do you want rifle season moved into Dec. I think you'll get a lot of No answers because folks won't see the benefits only the negatives.
 
Muskrat24 said:
The last paragraph SCARES ME! Hunter numbers are decreasing exponentially compared to population growth. I have commented on this in other threads that we are narrow minded to solely support targeting big deer as the main stream hunting ideal because people with that mindset do not hunt public ground and our instant gratification society will lose interest in hunting QUICKLY and if the only desire is mature bucks once they are unsuccessful for a short period of time thus losing more of the backing of a hunters voice as a group. Again just my $.02…..
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Bold statement here is factually inaccurate.
 
Muskrat24 said:
Another concern I have with the finite changes suggested is that nature has been altered. I am fortunate to hunt some better than average ground in MO where deer can reach over the hill maturity. The last two deer I have shot in MO were documented 7+ yo and the biggest scored high 160s. The expectation of making the proposed changes creating higher scoring deer is again relative. Will there be older age class deer, yes, will they be 200 inches, not many…..
Click to expand...
Growing 200" deer is not the objective. Balanced age structure within the herd is.
 
Muskrat24 said:
I respectfully disagree with statements above and I personally am in favor of what you are suggesting. The draw to MO is the ability to hunt decent to good deer during the rut with a rifle. I would not say that the majority of the young hunters I know in MO would give up their rifle rut hunting for a better chance for a better scoring bow buck which is essentially what is being proposed as moving the rifle season out of the rut will make killing mature deer more difficult for gun hunters which is why it is being proposed. If everyone had managed private ground and loved to bow hunt I think you are spot on but most don’t desire the time and effort to get close range for a bow shot when they can shoot a deer they are happy enough with now to pull the trigger. And BTW I don’t gun hunt any state but grew up in MO and buy NR archery license that I fill maybe every third year. I’m just suggesting what people will counter your arguments with. I have looked into what you are proposing IN DEPTH and if you dive into the numbers and pursue it with the majority point of view it is a HARD SELL IMO!
Click to expand...
You keep making this about score. It is not about score.
"
moving the rifle season out of the rut will make killing mature deer more difficult for gun hunters which is why it is being proposed."
Click to expand...
If there are more mature deer within the herd, how will that make it more difficult for gun hunters to harvest said mature deer?
 
Found this on MDC website. Article is old but nothing has changed since. Scroll to the page 2 under goal #1
1685651775796.png

There's lots more in there that will make your head spin, and now MO has crossbows in entirety of archery season.
That document is nearly 10 years old. Time to re-evaluate.
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
Chatted with a colleague today and getting recipe for setting up Non-profit/501c3 for the cause.
Will start that next week.
Click to expand...
I just learned a little about a non-profit 501c recently when I attended a prescribed burn seminar where they were trying to get like minded folks in a 3 county area to create an prescribed burn association. There's benefits/grants available if you go that route, but it doesn't come without some paperwork to file with the MAN (IRS) annually as I understood it. Unfortunately, we failed to get enough interest to move it along but the 501c and benefits sounded interesting. I wonder if there's some benefits or grants available for this effort?
 
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