turtlshell
PMA Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> shoot does THEN the fawns! </div></div>
I AGREE. Deer are creatures of habit. Chances are very high that if you take out momma, you'll be offered a shot at the fawns in the same spot a few days later.
I should say that a few deer on my hunting grounds do get a free pass and I have passed up a certain doe or two. Last year I took out a momma doe really early over a hay field. I knew that her twins were a button and doe. After double lunging momma I heard the fawns bawling near where she went down. I left the area and returned an hour later with some help to drag her out and the fawns were actually bedded about 25 yds up the hill from where momma expired. I spooked them off, but could tell they didn't go far. I saw those two on three different sits from the same stand after that and just couldn't bring myself to shoot the doe fawn. I watched them play around and decided that everyone needs a buddy so sis got a free pass because her bro could be a future booner. Given this situation, if it were two doe fawns, they'd both get zipped.
The other free pass is for a doe that calls a certain spot home. She will get a free pass by me forever because she always comes into heat late and has brought some nice bucks past my stand. Two of which I overshot in consecutive nights 3 years ago. She has a boogered up ear and is easy to identify...
...all the rest are fair game.
I AGREE. Deer are creatures of habit. Chances are very high that if you take out momma, you'll be offered a shot at the fawns in the same spot a few days later.
I should say that a few deer on my hunting grounds do get a free pass and I have passed up a certain doe or two. Last year I took out a momma doe really early over a hay field. I knew that her twins were a button and doe. After double lunging momma I heard the fawns bawling near where she went down. I left the area and returned an hour later with some help to drag her out and the fawns were actually bedded about 25 yds up the hill from where momma expired. I spooked them off, but could tell they didn't go far. I saw those two on three different sits from the same stand after that and just couldn't bring myself to shoot the doe fawn. I watched them play around and decided that everyone needs a buddy so sis got a free pass because her bro could be a future booner. Given this situation, if it were two doe fawns, they'd both get zipped.
The other free pass is for a doe that calls a certain spot home. She will get a free pass by me forever because she always comes into heat late and has brought some nice bucks past my stand. Two of which I overshot in consecutive nights 3 years ago. She has a boogered up ear and is easy to identify...
...all the rest are fair game.
risto2351
Well-Known Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sligh1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Risto /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
I probably think of genetics MORE when it comes to bucks where AGE of the deer would not be an issue in genetics BUT look forward to the response on educating me when it comes to does /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
Sligh,
In Trophy Deer Management(TDM) does older than 2 1/2 are harvested.
Book says similar to the hybridization of plants, to increase the rate at which "desirable" genetic traits are concentrated within the population, the offspring of parents expressing desired genetic traits are used in the next generation of selective breeding. These offspring have the greatest possibility of displaying more of the desired traits and are more likely to pass those traits onto the next generation. If "better" bucks are being produced and being allowed to breed, then their doe offspring should be allowed to breed while older does are removed. These older does were a product of breeding when less-desirable genetic selection was achieved within the herd.
I honestly can not take credit for the above but was in a book I read. Pretty interesting stuff.
I probably think of genetics MORE when it comes to bucks where AGE of the deer would not be an issue in genetics BUT look forward to the response on educating me when it comes to does /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>
Sligh,
In Trophy Deer Management(TDM) does older than 2 1/2 are harvested.
Book says similar to the hybridization of plants, to increase the rate at which "desirable" genetic traits are concentrated within the population, the offspring of parents expressing desired genetic traits are used in the next generation of selective breeding. These offspring have the greatest possibility of displaying more of the desired traits and are more likely to pass those traits onto the next generation. If "better" bucks are being produced and being allowed to breed, then their doe offspring should be allowed to breed while older does are removed. These older does were a product of breeding when less-desirable genetic selection was achieved within the herd.
I honestly can not take credit for the above but was in a book I read. Pretty interesting stuff.
wiseguys25
PMA Member
Risto,
I don't doubt what you read about genetics in a book, but I think it is bunch of BS as it applies to wild deer in Iowa. The book is using research discovered by Mendel. However, those diserable genetics in plants were observable. With does how do you go about judging the genetics that older does are likely to pass on to their male offspring? Bucks are easy to judge you look at their rack.. In order to know that killing older does improves genetics you would have to know what her genetic makeup is. She could have been produced by a BC buck and female that had produced several BC bucks.
I would argue the fact the the doe was able to survive to an old age would indicate that her genetics are pretty desirable and thus should be passed on to other deer. In order for bucks to grow large they must get old as well and are more likely to do so if their genetics provide them the health and intelligence to do so.
The plant theory seems more viable in areas with poor genetics. Especially if specimens containing disired genetics have been introduced to the herd.
I don't doubt what you read about genetics in a book, but I think it is bunch of BS as it applies to wild deer in Iowa. The book is using research discovered by Mendel. However, those diserable genetics in plants were observable. With does how do you go about judging the genetics that older does are likely to pass on to their male offspring? Bucks are easy to judge you look at their rack.. In order to know that killing older does improves genetics you would have to know what her genetic makeup is. She could have been produced by a BC buck and female that had produced several BC bucks.
I would argue the fact the the doe was able to survive to an old age would indicate that her genetics are pretty desirable and thus should be passed on to other deer. In order for bucks to grow large they must get old as well and are more likely to do so if their genetics provide them the health and intelligence to do so.
The plant theory seems more viable in areas with poor genetics. Especially if specimens containing disired genetics have been introduced to the herd.
Seth
New Member
Last year I doubled up on two twin doe-fawns. Easy pickins if you ask me. They tasted great and the best part was, I drug both of 'em out at the same time- by myself. The year before that I took out a whole family (aside from the daddy). Heck last year I almost shot a doe during the rut that was being dogged hard by a 3 pointer just because I didn't want that turd breeding with her. Never took the shot however, but my point being- shoot 'em all!
JNRBRONC
Well-Known Member
As to the genetics of an old doe, here is my take:
For "survival of the fittest" and genetic reshuffling, you don't want a stagnant breeding pool. Once a doe has contributed her genes to the herd a couple of breeding season, she has placed her genetics into the herd and I want things to progress from there. Old does might result in "line breeding" where closely related individuals mate. Line breeding can reinforce some desirable traits in a small portion of the offspring, but the other portion can get all of the undesirable traits. Having her contribute her same genes for many seasons could minimize the "hybrid" effect, where hybrids show greater vigor
As to an old doe who has survived many season being one who is smart and thus should be allowed to pass her genes on, well, maybe she is buck toothed, wears a plaid dress with thick glasses and hangs out at the library. Her only redeeming trait would be that by hiding at the library she survives (her longevity). Do you want to reinforce only one trait?
Me, I try to shoot as many as I can, trying my best to not shoot buttons. I've shot mom before, then shot the yearling that hung around.
Shooting a doe with twins ended my wife's desire to hunt. She clipped the femoral artery of the doe with her broadhead and then came to get me to help trail. The blood trail was easy to follow and when we got to the doe, we had to chase her twin fawns off. My wife was not impressed to say the least! So I can sympathize with the position some have taken about not wanting to shoot fawns or does with fawns.
For "survival of the fittest" and genetic reshuffling, you don't want a stagnant breeding pool. Once a doe has contributed her genes to the herd a couple of breeding season, she has placed her genetics into the herd and I want things to progress from there. Old does might result in "line breeding" where closely related individuals mate. Line breeding can reinforce some desirable traits in a small portion of the offspring, but the other portion can get all of the undesirable traits. Having her contribute her same genes for many seasons could minimize the "hybrid" effect, where hybrids show greater vigor
As to an old doe who has survived many season being one who is smart and thus should be allowed to pass her genes on, well, maybe she is buck toothed, wears a plaid dress with thick glasses and hangs out at the library. Her only redeeming trait would be that by hiding at the library she survives (her longevity). Do you want to reinforce only one trait?
Me, I try to shoot as many as I can, trying my best to not shoot buttons. I've shot mom before, then shot the yearling that hung around.
Shooting a doe with twins ended my wife's desire to hunt. She clipped the femoral artery of the doe with her broadhead and then came to get me to help trail. The blood trail was easy to follow and when we got to the doe, we had to chase her twin fawns off. My wife was not impressed to say the least! So I can sympathize with the position some have taken about not wanting to shoot fawns or does with fawns.
risto2351
Well-Known Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cor Dor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Risto,
I don't doubt what you read about genetics in a book, but I think it is bunch of BS as it applies to wild deer in Iowa. The book is using research discovered by Mendel. However, those diserable genetics in plants were observable. With does how do you go about judging the genetics that older does are likely to pass on to their male offspring? Bucks are easy to judge you look at their rack.. In order to know that killing older does improves genetics you would have to know what her genetic makeup is. She could have been produced by a BC buck and female that had produced several BC bucks.
I would argue the fact the the doe was able to survive to an old age would indicate that her genetics are pretty desirable and thus should be passed on to other deer. In order for bucks to grow large they must get old as well and are more likely to do so if their genetics provide them the health and intelligence to do so.
The plant theory seems more viable in areas with poor genetics. Especially if specimens containing disired genetics have been introduced to the herd.
</div></div>
Don't know if what they stated is 100% correct or not. I don't think anyone actually can say for certain.
The pros do outweigh the cons though in shooting the older does.
I don't doubt what you read about genetics in a book, but I think it is bunch of BS as it applies to wild deer in Iowa. The book is using research discovered by Mendel. However, those diserable genetics in plants were observable. With does how do you go about judging the genetics that older does are likely to pass on to their male offspring? Bucks are easy to judge you look at their rack.. In order to know that killing older does improves genetics you would have to know what her genetic makeup is. She could have been produced by a BC buck and female that had produced several BC bucks.
I would argue the fact the the doe was able to survive to an old age would indicate that her genetics are pretty desirable and thus should be passed on to other deer. In order for bucks to grow large they must get old as well and are more likely to do so if their genetics provide them the health and intelligence to do so.
The plant theory seems more viable in areas with poor genetics. Especially if specimens containing disired genetics have been introduced to the herd.
</div></div>
Don't know if what they stated is 100% correct or not. I don't think anyone actually can say for certain.
The pros do outweigh the cons though in shooting the older does.
SaskGuy
Active Member
Being unable to even take a doe this yr and only one most yrs this topic is one I don't put much thought in.
That siad, I arrowed a doe last yr that was being pushed by a buck, her twins were there as well and they watched me gut mama. Next time I'm allowed a doe, it'll be a dry one.
Managing land is the last thing on my mind when I hunt, b/c it's pointless to think about it.
That siad, I arrowed a doe last yr that was being pushed by a buck, her twins were there as well and they watched me gut mama. Next time I'm allowed a doe, it'll be a dry one.
Managing land is the last thing on my mind when I hunt, b/c it's pointless to think about it.
Fishbonker
Life Member
What Cor Dor failed to take into consideration is at what point was the TDM started? If it started a few breedings ago and you are selectively harvesting bucks based on bone, the does that were around when you started the TDM will potentially have the inferior bone genetics from pre TDM to pass on, so taking out the older does and leaving the young ones with the potentialy superior genes will more than likely pass on those superior genes. Sure it is theoretical, but it stands to reason. ‘Bonker reason that is.
So that’s my take on Mendelian genetics as it pertains to TDM, not to be confused with the Darwinian pangeisis theory of heredity which only proves that theories are only educated assumptions at best.
The ‘Bonker
So that’s my take on Mendelian genetics as it pertains to TDM, not to be confused with the Darwinian pangeisis theory of heredity which only proves that theories are only educated assumptions at best.
The ‘Bonker
