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Story and first-time muzzleloading/NEED CRITIQUE!

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idsman75

New Member
Well, it was a long weekend. I had two whole days off in a row and didn't know what to do with myself. I had a Nikon "Team Realtree) 2-7X32 scope put on my T/C Omega. Te camo almost perfectly matches the camo on the stock and barrel of my gun. I did some shooting with a friend out in Nebraska with a .22 and a 12-gauge and then went back to his place until his wife and baby fell asleep. The we went to "Crazy Carl's" place. He's an ex biker-gang dude who used to ride in Louisiana. We sat around the table drinking coffee and telling tall hunting tales until about 3:30am. We went to sleep and then woke up to do some more shooting. We gave guns of several calibers a true workout. We shot everything from .22 LR, .270 Win, 7.62X39, 12-guage and a Mauser in .30-06.

After all that fun I got down to some serious work with the T/C Omega (.50). I swabbed the barrel from the muzzle between each shot with a patch that was dampened with saliva. I was using Hodgdon Triple-7 and tap water is all that is recommended for cleaning. I did this each time and could get the bore pretty clean except for the first inch or so past the breech plug (where the saboted bullet seats). After six nice shots (and nice groups) I couldn't get my bullet to seat. I ended up taking out the breech plug and using T/C No. 13 to clean the barrel from breech to muzzle quite thoroughly and then swabbed it with dry swabs until the barrel was dry and pristine again. Then I shot some more and repeated this practice until I grew weary of cleaning/loading/shooting.

I took the gun back home and swabbed the barrel with patches soaked in Cabelas Citrus Black Powder cleaner and then I ran boiling water from breech to muzzle. Then I went in with the T/C No. 13 to make sure that everything was perfect and repeated the boiling water routine again. After the barrel was dry (but still quite hot) I took some Bore Butter that I had melted and soaked a patch with it. I passed that patch down the barrel twice and then put the gun away.

Does this cleaning routine sound reasonable? I know that many black-powder shooters have their own routine that works for them but I wanted to run it by everyone here in order to get a good critique.

Do you think that it was plastic build-up that prevented me from seating another saboted bullet after the six shot which necessitated thorough cleaning before continuing?
 
Re: Story and first-time muzzleloading/NEED CRITIQ

It could be plastic build up, but more than likely a combo more of not getting it clean enough than plastic build up. You can be cramming all the powder build up into that last inch when you attempt to swab the barrel. We usually have a couple swabs pre soaked with TC no 13 and dry swabs. We shoot and wet swab and dry swab. Shoot again and repeat. This keeps the barrel pretty clean. Be careful not to get the breach wet and have a mis or hang fire.

When we are done we usually use TC no.13 and really swab the barrel good and use a couple dry swabs to make it really tight. Then repeat until the two dry swabs come out as clean as they went in. Usually it doesn't take more than 4 repeats.

I shoot a Knight Disc and my father shoots an Encore. Never have shot the Omega, but can't see how it would be much different.

Hope that helps.
 
idsman a barrel is made of metal,the metal has microscopic holes.When you clean with water the water gets in the holes,even if you dry patch the patch cant get in the holes to get the water out.Putting bore butter over the holes filled with water will cause rust.
Some have had good results using bore butter as a storage lube but many many others have had barrels rust so bad they were ruined over time,most where shooting pyrodex.
Potassuim Perchlorate is a ingident in pyrodex and 777 which is not totaly water soulable,it wont all come out with water alone.So if you use water use a bore solvent after words like you did,but dont use the water after that because then your increasing your chances for rust.
Heres what has worked for me,if i clean with water or not i use a bore solvent of some kind then i dry patch.
After that i use a 90% rubbing alchole with a sloppy wet patch and realy scrub the dickens out of it for a spell.Pull the ramrod and patch and let it set for a couple of min then dry patch.
The alkey will help evaporate the water out of the pores in the metal.Then i put a sloppy wet patch of breakfree clp in the bore and work it in good and store.
Next time i go shooting a dry patch the breakfree out and then a wet patch of alkey and then dry patch.Good to go.
I have found when target shooting with 777 in my knight that i can shoot about 3 shots with out cleaning,if i want it the most accurate i can get it then i use a patch wet with alkey and clean the barrel spot less and then dry patch.With the right bullet and sabot i can put them all in a 1 inch dot at 100 yards at my shooting rest,which is nothing more than a ammo box over the hood of my ford.
Before hunting snap a cap on a clean dry barrel to remove any lube or moisture that may be in the breech plug.
You need to now for sure where a bullet will go the first shot out of your gun for that is the one that counts,the more fouling in the bore the higher it will shoot.Keep that in mind when target practiceing.
Now go clean the bore butter out of your barrel with the solvent,dry patch,use the alkey patch,dry patch and use a good petroulim based gun oil to store it.Just remember to remove it before you shoot again.
Hope this helps.
 
Now, I'm no scientist but isn't rust "iron-oxide"? If you coat a bore with liquified melted Bore Butter, aren't you basically putting a wax seal all the way down the barrel? Wouldn't that seal out the oxygen required to make "iron-oxide"?

Previously posted by bowmaker in my first thread about muzzleloading quite a few months ago:

[ QUOTE ]
Cleaning is very important with any muzzel loader. Some powders clean pretty easily, but I'm still a little old fashion. I like to use very hot soapy water and then hot water rince. I think this is important to get out the salts which are created when the powder burns. Cleaning this way also gets the barrel really hot, that heat then dries the barrel. The Bore Butter is used to lube and seal the barrel while it is still hot. Run a patch coated with butter down the bore and the heat will distribute it . This will help prevent a rusty bore and make loading easier as the barrel becomes more and more seasoned. You can then use the same patch to wipe down the out side of the gun to prevent rust there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to argue. It's just that I have NEVER met anyone that this has happened to just like I've never met anyone that's had a Glock blow up on them but you hear about it all the time.

I'd like someone to either concur with this or set me straight. Almost everyone that I know who muzzleloads does it the way I described (hot water then Bore Butter).
 
Idsman go over to huntamerica.com and ask this question on the modern muzzle loader forum.
You will find many people who will tell you about the bore seasoning.
Bill Knight is a blackpowder chemist who makes and test black powder and has done test on the sub powders.He used to give us good info over on the shooters talk forum from time to time,shooters has seens gone under from lack of sponsers or something.
Any way he has taken barrels and cut them in half,barrels that where bore season with bore butter and had been shooting pyrodex.Under the seasoning were pitted barrels that were ruined and accuracy was gone.Thats were the pottuasium pherchlorate comes in,it aint totally water solubable,and it is found in pyrodex,which is the most corrisive powder there is,worst than black powder,now 777 has the same stuff in it but much less but it is there.
He also told us what bore butter was made of but i cant remember all the ingidents.It was mostly a wax and some olive oil with some winter green scent
also told us that tc bore cleaner isnt what people think it is either,its mostly just plain water mixed with something else.
Im gonna put up a link to some Bill Knight info,it dosnt deal with what we are discuson but it gives you some idea of what knowledge he has about black powder and there subs,much more than any clod like me are any one else here could ever hope to know about the stuff.
http:www.schetzen.net/bill_Knight.htm

you can season your bore if you want with bore butter or use it for a rust protecter but dont be surprised when your accuracy is gone and find out your barrel is ruined in a matter of a couple of years.if you lived in Ariziona where there is limited humidity it might work but we live in iowa.
 
Don't get me wrong. I totally agree that trapping a corrosive substance under a layer of bore butter is certain to do long-term damage. However, a hot rinse and then a solvent bath followed by another hot rinse should have rid my barrel of that corrosive substance (which is indeed found in lower quantities in the Hodgdon Triple-7). The only think that I would tend to contest would be the idea that the water itself would cause problems. Bore Butter is essentially a wax. I effectively sealed out all oxygen from the pores in the barrel which were created by cutting and lapping at the factory. Oxygen (an issential ingredient in causing the type of corrosion that is caused when metal is exposed to moisture) is sealed out. The only other way corrosion could be caused (IMHO) would be via the trapping of a corrosive chemical under the Bore Butter. Then again, I could be full of it.

On a second note....

Like I said before, Bore Butter is essentially a waxy substance. When you season a piece of cast-iron cookware you only do it once and don't do it again until the "seasoning" is worn off and the touted virtues of the seasoning are no long evident when you cook. I would never even assume that one should use Bore Butter every single time they do cleaning maintenance. Wax build-up is CERTAIN to occur thus reducing the bore diameter and filling in the rifling and ruining the performance of the barrel. Along the lines of cast-iron-cookware analogy, you don't scrub and scour cast iron cookware with an abrasive material. You just use warm soapy water and agitate it with a soft cloth. Why is that? You don't want to scrape off your seasoning. I can see where someone would season with Bore Butter more often if they were religius with a bronze bore brush during the cleaning session. You'd scrape off all the bore butter.
 
Interesting reading! My simple procedure is hot water, rusty duck black off, and bore butter. Have never had any problems with rust or accuracy. Rusty duck contains Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether. My traditional Hawken shoots just as straight as the day I bought it and my in line T/C Encore stays clean as a whistle. I always check the barrel several days after cleaning and seasoning. No rust!
Good hunting
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If you take any metal and magnafi it enough you will see the pore holes.when you shoot fouling is forced into the pores under the pressure of the charge.
Know you got it out with water,and a bore solvent,why would you want to put more water in after the solvent,your just puting moisture back into the pores,as the waxy bore butter patch slides over the pores some will get in the pores but will it displace the water away from the metal where it cant cause rust or will it cover it up or seal it so no oxygen can get to it to start the rust?
Maybe,maybe not.If you keep a close eye on it and check it every couple of days you will know if any rust is starting.The worst thing you can do is shoot it and clean it and store it for long periods of time with out checking it.
Black powder and the subs dont cause rust,the moisture they draw from the air is what gets rust started,and when you have moisture,water present any time with out a proper rust protecter you will be flirting with a problem down the road,it may be a week or it may be a year but it will reveal its self in time.
Ask about bore butter at this link.

http://www.cva.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi
 
tryper rusty duck is a decent protecter,you dont need the bore butter,the rusty duck is doing its job,and you have no seasoning if your using rusty duck for it is cleaning it out.
Black powder cartridge shooters have been using petroulem based storage lubes for years and it is now becoming realized in the muzzle loading comunity that it some of the best protection for a front stuffer bore.
Idsman do what you want,at least check your bore once a week to see if any problems are acuring.
 
I took your advice and registered on the CVA site. I've been reading on and on about Bore Butter. I guess my "theory" was just that. There are too many people there having problems doing what I considered was standard practice in the BP community.

I'm going home to take care of my front-stuffer. I'm going to go to town with patches and some Butch's Bore Shine and hopefully that solvent (which is fairly aggressive) will be able to take out some of that Bore Butter. Then I guess I'll run some CLP patches down there just to make sure there's a good protective coating.

Man I feel like an idiot. I love this gun. It's one of those Omegas that has the camo stock AND the camo barrel. Hard to find. Scheel's has em and Cabela's has a hard time keeping them on the shelves.
 
Bucknife, Basically youre saying that after I clean with water then use the rusty duck I don't need to put any bore butter for storage for the season. Makes sense to me I guess. You say you use breakfree for storage. Is that just the normal spray that comes in the small canister or is it something else?
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tryper its BreakFree clp,comes in the black spray can.Can be found at walmart or most sporting goods.
Wet a patch with it and let the ramrod go in the bore about 6 inches then spray a good dose in the barrel.Work it up and down slow and let it twist with the rifling.Its good stuff,the same stuff the military uses.
Idsman your no idiot,your new at muzzle loading,i was new at one time and i too tryed out the bore season thing for a spell.
I just didnt want your gun to be one of the used muzzle loaders i see at the mall and other places that have deep pitted rust in the muzzle,lord knows what they look like with a bore scope.
Theres many ways to keep a bore protected and many products.
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I think the T/C cleaner & bore butter are great but then I never use water. Have always shot Pyrodex & I found that after a couple sessions I never needed the brass brush anymore. I always swab bore with dry patch to wipe out the bore butter then fire a 209 through the barrel before loading.
 
I have a question. When you are out on the range and you've shot a few times, can you just clean the barrel with a sovlent, wire brush and dry patches; and go back to shooting OR do you need to use hot water "deep cleaning" after every few shots???
 
Waukon1 your sovent and dry patch will get it clean.Some just spit patch it out,some run a lightly damp spit patch in once and flip it over and run it in again and keep on shooting,if you do this every shot the bore will stay some what consistant up to a point,depends on the gun and the powder.
Ive found that 90% rubbing alkey works good to clean 777 and leaves the bore very dry after the dry patches,no film or lube left in the bore to raise havic with the sabots.
It leaves a dryer bore than the spit patch method and seems more accurate in my guns anyway.
 
Years ago i used to use bore butter but had the same problem mentioned here. getting a bullet seated was impossible after a few shots. When I ran out of bore butter I didn't have that problem and never used it again. During season I clean my disc with hot (as hot as I can stand it) soapy water. Let the barrel cool and dry, then will use compressed air to get rid of any water that might be left and thats it. When I store it I will coat the inside and out with a light oil.
 
Hey sorry if I miss lead you way back when. I was just passing on the way I was taught and have done for the last 15 years. I have 2 Lymans, 1 T/C, a Knight Disc, and a Knight shotgun and this is how I have always cleaned them. I use either Pyrodex, or 2FFg and have fired thousands of shots without experiencing any problems. I have used both Borebutter and Wonder Lube for all these years and my old 50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle will still take the head off of a squirrel even with my aging eyes. Do what ever seems right to you and enjoy shooting your rifle! Good luck this fall.
 
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