Tell me why we should shoot more does

[Daver]

Excellent point on segmentation, take a look at Buffalo County on Onx. That is the future.

FWIW, I got an education on land segmentation, and also strict, strict trespassing regulations about 25 years ago when I traveled to extreme southern Texas for a hog hunt. There, this phenomenon was well under way at that time and had not yet become a "thing" back here in Iowa. The wise hosts of our Texas hunt predicted that it would be the future here in Iowa too...and they were right.

Down there, at that time, land access was tightly controlled and up here we were still accessing super properties via knocking on doors. Their advice and input did little to dissuade me from buying my own slice of heaven in Iowa a few years later. I am so grateful that I was able to get in the game for relatively little money compared to now. Now, if someone can swing it, like I did 20+ years ago, they might be getting a 20, or a 40, etc. Then...I was able to get 4 or 5 times that acreage.

 

[bluedog69]

In NW Missouri about 15-20 years ago they opened up doe season to unlimited.
You could literally shoot as many as you wanted to buy $7 tags for. I heard of a few guys that first year shooting 80+ doe.(rifle not bow)
The population slowly kind of shrunk and leveled off until 2012 EHD put us back into about 1960 levels of populations.
Practically no deer left at all. We are now back to a decent deer population, but nothing like our peak population.
So in NW MO we don't need to manage does...we are still lower populations than most places when it comes to deer.
I have had friends from MI and IN come hunt, and they were very disappointed in how few of deer we had compared to what they are used to seeing.

 

[bluedog69]

I have to agree here, the lower deer numbers in the last 10 years seem to also correspond with less quality. Many of our IL neighbors feel this way too and all of us have about stopped shooting does.

Obviously a few get shot during gun season and kids have open game on any deer they want to shoot. However, I think we have taken less than 1 for off the farm per year the last 6-7 years. Neighbors same thing, and our herd is back up substantially and the quality of bucks has improved. We have had no issues getting on the big deer either so I am not sure I buy the buck to doe ratio and the high number of does making it more difficult to kill a mature buck.

We will keep pushing this until we see it not working

This reminded me of angus cattle breeders.

If you go and buy the best bull calf that a small registered farmer produced from his herd of 30 cows(15 bulls)
what are the chances that he will be of equal quality as the best bull calf produced by the farmer with 600 cows(300 bull calves to pick from)

 

[bluedog69]

Im not sure what the situation in Iowa is like anymore as Ive not hunted out there since the hay day you speak of, but the Illinois farm I own still has stupid high deer numbers on it. I struggle to get a 15 acre soybean field to grow beans unless everything is perfect weather wise. The deer just destroy it so I wouldn't mind a few less deer.
Speaking of Bill Winke and his Iowa farm. He claims a lot of his success was from his focus on heavy doe harvest. Said it caused his farm to be a highly favored spot for young bucks to shift to.

I am pretty sure that when I was a "young buck" I would have shifted to areas of high "doe" concentrations.

 

[jflournoy]

BINGO: Cell cams = #1 destroyer of top end bucks. Those 150" 3 year olds no longer make it. For every "positive" a cell cam provides, their is a negative that has a much more dramatic effect IMO.

Cell cams are the cheapest, most effective tool to come out in the past 25 years for consistent antler harvest.

I think this is an oversimplification. I was the only hunter last year on a 300+ acre farm in southern Iowa during bow season. Great deer habitat, tons of deer, 10+ cell cams running during hunting season (and before) and probably at least 8 bucks in the 140-170" range throughout the entirety of the season. It was my first year on the place so I was still learning it, but I'm a decent to good hunter, and I ate tag soup. Had all kinds of cell cam intelligence on buck movement, but the idea that I could take that intelligence and easily turn it into a successful hunt on a specific big buck was definitely not the case. I saw my target buck in the daylight in a 5 acre standing bean field at least 4 times in the last 10 days of late bow season but he came out in a different spot every time I was there. Could have killed him with a muzzy twice but I was determined to get him with a bow and he never came in range. He's alive still so I'm hoping to get another crack at him this year.

Maybe in some scenarios on certain properties it would be easier, but for sure not on the one I hunted, and I was out there probably at least 50 days during the season.

 

[Snail3496]

Very solid thread. The too many doe thing is so property dependent. Most of the time it's just an excuse someone gives to kill stuff but there are no doubt high end farms that need it kept in check. Regarding the fewer top bucks topic I have some first hand unique experience I'll try to be concise on. Iowa's is more caused by EHD and pressure/flatbillers not letting off, but here's my case study:

I hunt and own land in a very un-famous 3 county part of eastern IL where I grew up. No outfitters exist for hours in any direction.

There is a very isolated 2-3 sq mile area out in the prairie where the main cover (large crp tree plantings) is completely state owned no hunting & has been for 30 years. There are satellite patches of cover around & approximately 25 huntable privately owned properties in the section, none are over 20 acres, and none are really "great", they just have a huntable tree or two on them. I have exclusive permission to about a third, a few don't allow hunting, and the rest are heavily hunted by other locals I know of.

There are zero managed "deer" properties. It has never experienced EHD and has experienced zero drastic changes in the 15 years I've been obsessed with it. Yet the age structure and top end bucks have plummeted over the last 5 years. It's the crossbow.

The shotgun hunters now are out just about every day all season, yet their standards haven't changed. Enough years in a row of them all filling both buck tags in October with the easiest bucks in the woods to kill takes a toll. They aren't generally killing any of the top end bucks, nor "outhunting" anybody. It's just eventually the top end bucks from pre X-bow got old and died and now there isn't the next group to fill their place. It's been really really sad to see unravel & is happening across the entire state here. Hope you all never have to experience it.

The only non-law change solution is to let more deer live in hopes just a couple more slip through just one more year. That's all I can come up with anyway.

 

[hesseu]

I think this is an oversimplification. I was the only hunter last year on a 300+ acre farm in southern Iowa during bow season. Great deer habitat, tons of deer, 10+ cell cams running during hunting season (and before) and probably at least 8 bucks in the 140-170" range throughout the entirety of the season. It was my first year on the place so I was still learning it, but I'm a decent to good hunter, and I ate tag soup. Had all kinds of cell cam intelligence on buck movement, but the idea that I could take that intelligence and easily turn it into a successful hunt on a specific big buck was definitely not the case. I saw my target buck in the daylight in a 5 acre standing bean field at least 4 times in the last 10 days of late bow season but he came out in a different spot every time I was there. Could have killed him with a muzzy twice but I was determined to get him with a bow and he never came in range. He's alive still so I'm hoping to get another crack at him this year.

Maybe in some scenarios on certain properties it would be easier, but for sure not on the one I hunted, and I was out there probably at least 50 days during the season.

I didn't say that cell cams = bag a bug. As mentioned, I believe cell cams are the cheapest, most effective tool to come out in the past 25 years for consistent antler harvest. You stated that you COULD have harvested, but chose to hunt with archery which didn't allow.

They provide real time data without intrusion. Can get them under $150 / each. Many folks only find out about certain bucks by camera, and then are able to "zero" in on that buck via multiple cams. Before cell cams, A LOT more work was involved. I would imagine that 80% or more of hunters who use cell cams, base their hunting strategy around the cell cams. Almost like the "hub" of a wheel. I've heard numerous stories of "had him on cam 2 days in a row in that spot, wind was right on day 3, so I went in after him..." harvest stories. I've also heard many guys talking about which farms they hunt based on summer trail cam info. That's insane! 20 years ago that wasn't even a thought. You had trail cams, 90% of pictures were of the same tree

 

[Rous14]

Very solid thread. The too many doe thing is so property dependent. Most of the time it's just an excuse someone gives to kill stuff but there are no doubt high end farms that need it kept in check. Regarding the fewer top bucks topic I have some first hand unique experience I'll try to be concise on. Iowa's is more caused by EHD and pressure/flatbillers not letting off, but here's my case study:

I hunt and own land in a very un-famous 3 county part of eastern IL where I grew up. No outfitters exist for hours in any direction.

There is a very isolated 2-3 sq mile area out in the prairie where the main cover (large crp tree plantings) is completely state owned no hunting & has been for 30 years. There are satellite patches of cover around & approximately 25 huntable privately owned properties in the section, none are over 20 acres, and none are really "great", they just have a huntable tree or two on them. I have exclusive permission to about a third, a few don't allow hunting, and the rest are heavily hunted by other locals I know of.

There are zero managed "deer" properties. It has never experienced EHD and has experienced zero drastic changes in the 15 years I've been obsessed with it. Yet the age structure and top end bucks have plummeted over the last 5 years. It's the crossbow.

The shotgun hunters now are out just about every day all season, yet their standards haven't changed. Enough years in a row of them all filling both buck tags in October with the easiest bucks in the woods to kill takes a toll. They aren't generally killing any of the top end bucks, nor "outhunting" anybody. It's just eventually the top end bucks from pre X-bow got old and died and now there isn't the next group to fill their place. It's been really really sad to see unravel & is happening across the entire state here. Hope you all never have to experience it.

The only non-law change solution is to let more deer live in hopes just a couple more slip through just one more year. That's all I can come up with anyway.

Crossguns are huge factor no doubt about it. Hate them in the archery season. But would say that the quality figures in IL dropped off a cliff from 2012-2018 or whenever that was prior to them becoming legal too. The huge reduction in deer numbers was first death blow, then crossguns coming in cleaned up the few remaining older age class deer in a quick hurry too. I think if I had to choose though between xguns being legal or herd levels going back to the way they were in the 2000’s I’d choose the herd levels. Still feel that’s the best way to have best chance at quality hunting.

 

[Rous14]

I didn't say that cell cams = bag a bug. As mentioned, I believe cell cams are the cheapest, most effective tool to come out in the past 25 years for consistent antler harvest. You stated that you COULD have harvested, but chose to hunt with archery which didn't allow.

They provide real time data without intrusion. Can get them under $150 / each. Many folks only find out about certain bucks by camera, and then are able to "zero" in on that buck via multiple cams. Before cell cams, A LOT more work was involved. I would imagine that 80% or more of hunters who use cell cams, base their hunting strategy around the cell cams. Almost like the "hub" of a wheel. I've heard numerous stories of "had him on cam 2 days in a row in that spot, wind was right on day 3, so I went in after him..." harvest stories. I've also heard many guys talking about which farms they hunt based on summer trail cam info. That's insane! 20 years ago that wasn't even a thought. You had trail cams, 90% of pictures were of the same tree

Agree w you. Cell cams don’t equal a guarentee but I know of a lot of big deer just in the last few years that were killed as a direct result of having real time info. Would they have eventually been killed at some point by a gun or muzzleloader….certainly possible but cell cams are huge game changer imo

 

[hesseu]

Crossguns are huge factor no doubt about it. Hate them. But would say that the quality figures in IL dropped off a cliff from 2012-2018 or whenever that was that they became legal too. The huge reduction in deer numbers was first death blow, then crossguns coming in cleaned up the few remaining older age class deer in a quick hurry too. I think if I had to choose though between xguns being legal or herd levels going back to the way they were in the 2000’s I’d choose the herd levels. Still feel that’s the best way to have best chance at quality hunting.

My anecdotal evidence would be a bit different. Here in Missouri, x-bows were legalized for everyone a couple of years ago. Years Past the introduction of cell cams by around 7 years or so. I haven't seen a difference in quality on the before / after x-bow inclusion. Cell cams, there seemed to be a lot more folks consistently harvesting better bucks vs years prior where harvest was more intermittent (i.e. they would harvest a good buck every 3 years vs every year with cell cams). And those who were harvesting good bucks yearly put in a lot more time when cell cams weren't around. I personally know folks who would almost consider it a "failure" now if it took them more than 4-5 days to harvest a "target" buck with the intel they have. Heck, just the fact we now have target bucks! That wasn't a thing 20+ years ago.

Unrelated, Missouri's biggest issue is our firearms placement in the heart of the rut. There are some things going on behind the scenes working to try and move this.

 

[jflournoy]

I didn't say that cell cams = bag a bug. As mentioned, I believe cell cams are the cheapest, most effective tool to come out in the past 25 years for consistent antler harvest. You stated that you COULD have harvested, but chose to hunt with archery which didn't allow.

They provide real time data without intrusion. Can get them under $150 / each. Many folks only find out about certain bucks by camera, and then are able to "zero" in on that buck via multiple cams. Before cell cams, A LOT more work was involved. I would imagine that 80% or more of hunters who use cell cams, base their hunting strategy around the cell cams. Almost like the "hub" of a wheel. I've heard numerous stories of "had him on cam 2 days in a row in that spot, wind was right on day 3, so I went in after him..." harvest stories. I've also heard many guys talking about which farms they hunt based on summer trail cam info. That's insane! 20 years ago that wasn't even a thought. You had trail cams, 90% of pictures were of the same tree

Oh I agree that cell cams have made it easier to gain intelligence on what deer are on the property, I just don't have personal experience it's made it that much easier to kill my target buck. Your mileage may vary.

 

[CottonwoodCanyon]

My anecdotal evidence would be a bit different. Here in Missouri, x-bows were legalized for everyone a couple of years ago. Years Past the introduction of cell cams by around 7 years or so. I haven't seen a difference in quality on the before / after x-bow inclusion. Cell cams, there seemed to be a lot more folks consistently harvesting better bucks vs years prior where harvest was more intermittent (i.e. they would harvest a good buck every 3 years vs every year with cell cams). And those who were harvesting good bucks yearly put in a lot more time when cell cams weren't around. I personally know folks who would almost consider it a "failure" now if it took them more than 4-5 days to harvest a "target" buck with the intel they have. Heck, just the fact we now have target bucks! That wasn't a thing 20+ years ago.

Unrelated, Missouri's biggest issue is our firearms placement in the heart of the rut. There are some things going on behind the scenes working to try and move this.

My statement isn't anything novel but a reminder that we should consider ourselves lucky in Iowa to (1) not have a firearm season in Nov and (2) not have to deal with unlimited crossguns in archery seasons. Those two things alone are the only thing keeping Iowa from going down the tubes in 1-2 years. If MO can get rifle season moved...wow, look out. I might just have to pack up and move again We're lucky we get to argue about the effects of cell cams on age structure.

That being said, I don't think we'll ever see the herds increase to where they were in the 2000s. Big ag and big insurance won't let it happen. So if we want to see the buck quality seen back then, we have to start limiting/regulating somewhere. The biggest one I would like to see...return muzzleloaders to more primitive. Blackpowder and iron sights, none of this smokeless and 12x scopes BS calling it a "muzzleloader" because you jammed something down the barrel.

 

[JNRBRONC]

The biggest one I would like to see...return muzzleloaders to more primitive. Blackpowder and iron sights, none of this smokeless and 12x scopes BS calling it a "muzzleloader" because you jammed something down the barrel.

Why not get rid of straight wall rifles during shotgun, go back to pumpkin ball smooth bore shotgun?

I doubt either is happening.

 

[CottonwoodCanyon]

Why not get rid of straight wall rifles during shotgun, go back to pumpkin ball smooth bore shotgun?

I doubt either is happening.

Sure, if you think you could peel back not only the straight wall rifles but also the rifled barrels. Personally, I don't see a huge difference in capability between a 350 legend and a scoped 12ga with a sabot slug and rifled barrel. It's not the vast difference of an open sighted blackpowder and a scoped smokeless. We're talking hundreds of yards difference.

We're also talking about impacts to buck age class and high end quality. In the DNRs eyes, the two "shotgun" seasons are for numbers management. More does are harvested during either of those two seasons than any other season by sheer number and also per hunter afield. During late muzzy, lots of "target" bucks are plunked off of standing beans with a scoped, high end muzzleloader rather than someone looking for a freezer queen. So, I do think the move to blackpowder/open sights is something that is more possible than re-regulating "shotgun" season weapon options. I'd bet it could even be a "rule change" within the DNR after some public meetings and wouldn't have to be legislated.

 

[JNRBRONC]

We're also talking about impacts to buck age class and high end quality. In the DNRs eyes, the two "shotgun" seasons are for numbers management. More does are harvested during either of those two seasons than any other season by sheer number and also per hunter afield. During late muzzy, lots of "target" bucks are plunked off of standing beans with a scoped, high end muzzleloader rather than someone looking for a freezer queen. So, I do think the move to blackpowder/open sights is something that is more possible than re-regulating "shotgun" season weapon options. I'd bet it could even be a "rule change" within the DNR after some public meetings and wouldn't have to be legislated.

So shotgun season, filling the trucks with any legal deer doesn't have an impact on age structure?
2006
2023
You are against a property owner planting a food plot over which he uses a muzzleloader to selectively harvest a buck he's happy with late season? I guess changing that regulation is easier due to less MZ hunters and thus less lobbying against the rule change? Choose the easier battle?

I have 4 muzzleloaders and haven't taken them hunting in a long time, so it's not like I'm advocating for them. Just discussing the issue.