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The Kid and a buck

jkratz5 said:
I wasn't going to respond to this post but then you started being classy and making posts about where guys are from, so:

As far as us big buck experts bitching about things you called this "aficionado"
out so now I will lay it out there. I was simply making a statement that despite these deer having cool racks the harvest photos don't do much for me. I enjoy seeing your photos of the deer as they are growing and to see their potential in these environments, and I appreciate the research that these areas have provided, although I don't know how relevant most of the research is since again these are not free ranging animals and their environment protects them from everything until the day they are shot. Howerver, I don't appreciate the harvest photos, that fact that these deer are dead do nothing for hunting, they provide no valuable information about a buck or deer herd that you couldn't obtain by other means, thus I think guys holding a game farm buck up for a hero shot are lame.

Personally, I see high fence operations as black eye to the hunting industry. I think it shows laziness and taking the easy way out. You have guys that go there to kill a deer of a lifetime becuase they can't get it done in the wild. These guys put in zero time scouting, patterning deer, hanging stands, basically learning how to hunt. The only thing they have to accomplish is putting an arrow in a target which is going to show up eventually. If you ask me that is lazy, and promotes that if you have a lot of money you can kill a big deer. It is nothing more than a slaughter house, but in this case you are promoting that it is hunting and it brings down what a real hunt is all about.

The high fence operations then allow the so called "pros" to come in and kill deer and pimp products, making it seem like the cruncher was a good idea, further running up the cost of our sport.

I also believe they are a high source for disease and even though people will argue to the death that High Fences haven't been confirmed in the spread of CWD in the whitetail herd, I don't think it is a coincidence that we have seen an increase in CWD correlating with an increase in the number of deer farms, even while wild deer numbers around the US are on the decline.

If you believe that shooting a deer on a 400 acre high fence area is a hunt then I guess your definition of a hunt is different than 99.9% of us. Every animal on that farm has had human interaction, through feeding, supplements etc. Humans are not a threat to those animals as well as other predators. So it really isn't a big deer being a big deer, it is a big deer being a Cocker Spaniel. I have seen guys simply walk around on fairly large tracts of high fence property and shoot a deer, seems more like going to McDonalds to shoot a fat guy then anything else, everntually it is gonna happen and that is not how I like to see hunting portrayed. I would much rather see people read articles and journals etc. from some of the guys on here that poured 100s of hours into prep work, scouting, etc. and reached their goal of harvesting an animal.

I guess what is really pathetic is all the guys who go on these hunts and then post pictures like they shot a free ranging deer. They remove ear tags or hide them with a knee or hand (real proud of that harvest aren't we). If they truly didn't care they would post the animal and say I shot this guy in a high fence, at least then I would have more respect for them as they wouldn't be trying to pull a fast one and make guys think it is a wild buck.

Oh and if you get lost on that 400 acres again you can just walk the nearest deer trail to the feeder and then take the atv trail to the main gate, should get you out of there in less than 5 minutes
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I got a good laugh at some of your comments, I personally could care less either way. I like looking at giant deer so Bruce... post away. But since this turned into an opinionated discussion, im curious Jkratz what you would think about the guys that pay a guide to hunt. or mabye even just go to a buddies farm for a one time sit in a stand or any other circumstance where the shooter did little to nothing but walk in, sit in a stand that someone els put there and pull the trigger when something walks by, high fence or not. would you publicly tell them you have no respect for them too because they did nothing on there own but pull the trigger at a live target? I get your point you were making, but reallywho are you to judge that kid? or his parents? or Bruce?
 
Let me throw one more fact out there. Every year my partners donate their time and deer to kids that have life threatening illnesses who might not ever have the chance to shoot a buck if it wasn't for a situation such as a preserve. I really wish you could see some of their faces after they take a nice buck, it might shed a different light on hunting preserves to some..........but I dought it.
 
antlerfreak said:
I got a good laugh at some of your comments, I personally could care less either way. I like looking at giant deer so Bruce... post away. But since this turned into an opinionated discussion, im curious Jkratz what you would think about the guys that pay a guide to hunt. or mabye even just go to a buddies farm for a one time sit in a stand or any other circumstance where the shooter did little to nothing but walk in, sit in a stand that someone els put there and pull the trigger when something walks by, high fence or not. would you publicly tell them you have no respect for them too because they did nothing on there own but pull the trigger at a live target? I get your point you were making, but reallywho are you to judge that kid? or his parents? or Bruce?
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I could care less either way because i will not be shooting a high fence deer anytime soon. Unless my neighbor who has cwd in the deer pen needs help! But there is no comparison to a guided hunt and a canned hunt.
In a pen you know 100% that there is a shooter deer there. If you think that most people go home empty handed you would be wrong.They get paid for the inches of antler on the deer you shoot! they dont get paid big bucks if you dont shoot anything!
A guide or outfitter in the wild gets paid to try to put you in a good spot. There are plenty of people on free ranging guided hunts that go home empty handed.
 
Jarin, not to be argumentative with ya, but let me ask you this: :grin:

You consider fenced hunting a black eye on the industry, and I can understand why you feel that way. And the purest in me doesn't blame you for that. Is the "Black eye" perceived by you or the general non-hunting public or the antis? Personally, I think the black eye is something that is coming from within the hunting industry more so than from external parties. Do you think the anti's care whether a deer is killed in a fence or the wild? Do you think if high-fenced hunting preserves were banned it would actually further the growth and objective of the industry?

Truth be told, the anti's don't give a rip, they just want to force their agenda down our throats, high fences or not. They want to see it ALL ended. From the outside looking in, non-hunters and anti's alike will not likely be swayed either way by the fact that high fences exist.

I can see how some might think that these operations are bad for the industry, but how about what they bring to the industry?? I don't think a guy who hasn't the time to put into the sport such as you or I should be judged by those who do have the time. If they want to pay an outfitter to scout, run cams, hang sets, and then lead the hunter to the stand with the best chances at a kill--let them!! If they want a higher chance of success and are willing to pay big bucks (pun intended) and go to a preserve with a fence around it... I don't see the problem with it. Additionally, if they wanna brag about it, let em--if lying to themselves make them feel better, so be it.

Death is death no matter how you cut it. Fair chase vs. high fence vs. slaughter house. The animals make the ultimate sacrifice for our enjoyment/food needs... I don't think they care whether they are forced down a shoot and get a 16 penny nail in their forehead or accidentally wander by your stand. Its all the same in the end. Yes, how it is perceived might vary from case to case, but the nuts and bolts of it remain the same.

If it's not for you, it's not for you. It isn't for me either and never will be, but I sure enjoy seeing the pictures Bruce posts. I see NOTHING wrong with it whatsoever. Furthermore, I'm a conservative, everyone knows that about me, I don't hide it. BUT, I'll be the first to admit to accomplish anything in this great nation of ours, we need bipartisan workmanship. Being completely AGAINST the opposition within only brings the entire nation down. Similarly, high-fence operations are apart of the same industry as YOU and like it or not, they are our brethren and we need to stand together for the common goal.

IF high fence hunting were to become illegal, our days as DIY obsessive whitetail'r's will be numbered. Again, if it's not your thing, it's not your thing. That's a great aspect about this great nation of ours--we can pursue our passions as we see fit. If the meat is going in your freezer and the head on your wall--and its LEGAL, I don't have a problem with it.

To each their own.
 
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jclaws said:
I could care less either way because i will not be shooting a high fence deer anytime soon. Unless my neighbor who has cwd in the deer pen needs help! But there is no comparison to a guided hunt and a canned hunt.
In a pen you know 100% that there is a shooter deer there. If you think that most people go home empty handed you would be wrong.They get paid for the inches of antler on the deer you shoot! they dont get paid big bucks if you dont shoot anything!
A guide or outfitter in the wild gets paid to try to put you in a good spot. There are plenty of people on free ranging guided hunts that go home empty handed.
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AntlerFreak, I really couldn't say it any better than this.

iowabruce said:
Let me throw one more fact out there. Every year my partners donate their time and deer to kids that have life threatening illnesses who might not ever have the chance to shoot a buck if it wasn't for a situation such as a preserve. I really wish you could see some of their faces after they take a nice buck, it might shed a different light on hunting preserves to some..........but I dought it.
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This is the one situation that I can see these hunts being useful. For those that are disabled, handicapped, or for things like catch a dream hunts. However, I still think a kid could be just as happy hunting wild deer, I can't gurantee that I will put you on a 250" buck but I would be happy to donate my time and land for these hunts, as I am sure many others would, and if you give me a week I think I could put people on animals.

Thomas,

The one big difference is in the way this is viewed is not by the anti's, but by the general public. I will even throw my only family out there. My mother and wife both love that I hunt, support it, even go with me on occassions to shed hunt, take photos, heck have even seen mom whack a couple of geese..

However, the first thing that comes out of their mouth when they see a high fence operation is "how could someone really think that is sporting" or"thats gotta make you feel real proud". I would say that these are people with the common view of hunting, they get it, understand that it is for conservation and for the betterment of the herds. But like myself will never understand why there is a need for high fence deer farms. That is where I think it really hurts our sport. If you sway enough of the people that are in the norm it hurts hunting and conservation in the end.
 
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jkratz5 said:
Thomas,

The one big difference is in the way this is viewed is not by the anti's, but by the general public. I will even throw my only family out there.
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Fair enough, but having said that, are YOU the only exposure your wife and mother have had to hunting? Or perhaps the largest outlet? Let me ask you this--if you represented high fence hunting as a necessity to the overall objective of the sport of hunting, but not a path you would take personally, would they be more receptive to it having a place?

If you hate it, then those around you who FOLLOW you will hate it also--by default. Conversely, if you say, "I support it, but its not for me," they will likely have the same stance.

As far as conservation and disease is concerned, its NO different than a farm. The only reason it gets jacked is because of CWD and how the disease is perceived among the hunting and non-hunting public. CWD can be isolated under a high fence scenario, therefore BLAMED on someone. CWD happens in nature too, but they can't isolate it there so they lay the blame on the deer farms, which is the easiest thing to do.

Honestly, there is more good brought to conservation through these places as opposed to bad, disease studies, behavioral, scent collection, etc. The only bad is generated by the press and those that want to bring them down.

Again, its not how I prefer to hunt, but I also don't think its the devil. We ARE all in this together.
 
I am also in the group that believes the non hunting general public that are not "anti"... believe hunting inside of a fence is not sporting at all and agree with Jarin in the thoughts of a "black eye". Screw the anti's, they're not being swayed, it's the indifferent folk that I'm more concerned with.

I'd personally be embarrased to say I shot any deer inside a 400 acre fence. That is hardly more than a 1/2 section.

However, I am not going to say anything about Bruce's friends, I know nothing about them. If that's a terminally ill kid, awesome stuff, great for him, good for them. If it's some rich kid, it's really no more impressive to me than a vehicle of the same value.
 
THA4 said:
Death is death no matter how you cut it. Fair chase vs. high fence vs. slaughter house.
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No. It's not the same. Animals that die in the wild at least had a chance to outsmart you and survive. They are wild animals. How many whitetails have you heard of in a high fence preserve die of old age/natural causes? Few, if any. It's just a matter of time before someone with a deep pocket puts a bullet or arrow in them. A feral cat would be tougher to hunt than most of these high fence animals.

THA4 said:
high fence hunting were to become illegal, our days as DIY obsessive whitetail'r's will be numbered.
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Really? How so? I completely disagree. Look at how much money is generated each year by hunters.....tags, licenses, gas, equipment, food....etc....the list goes on and on. The government makes big dollars off of hunting. The government uses hunting as their main conservation tool in wildlife management. So, you're telling me if high fence operations are shut down, lets just say due to diseases being spread, that our days as DIY whitetail hunters will be numbered. I don't agree Mr. Allen :confused:

Oh, and btw, up until now I haven't voiced my opinion on high fence killing, but to be honest, I don't agree with it. IMO it's not sporting. I don't even think it should be called hunting. Killing an animal that does not see you as a threat to it's life just doesn't seem right to me. Killing an animal that lives in a high fence with no opportunity at escaping is not fair. Personally, I would rather go the rest of my life without killing a deer than to kill one that was in a cage....but then again, like you said Thomas, to each their own.
 
Bruce, let's bring this back to a serious conversation... Were the hunters using Ozonics when they shot this big boy?

I hope you keep posting, we all don't have to agree on here and no matter how much you argue the future of high fence hunting won't be decided on IW.

I have been to HF exotic ranch in Texas and thoroughly enjoyed myself. I compare it to fishing in a really well stocked farm pond. In doing so I also met new friends and found it to be an incredibly relaxing way to enjoy my bow. Sticking every hog you see and drinking lots of cold ones afterwards=good times for this guy.
 
THA4 said:
Honestly, there is more good brought to conservation through these places as opposed to bad, disease studies, behavioral, scent collection, etc.
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Thomas, c'mon man! What a broad statement....with absolutely nothing provided to back it up. I don't even want to dive into this statement! :moon: :grin:
 
I wonder if the situation ever comes up..when your taking a youth out hunting and a small buck comes out the hunter who has never killed a deer before "begs" and "begs" to kill that deer.(since they have never killed a deer before) what would u say to the kid who's hunting in the high fence? No!! U can't kill that deer, there's a 200in running around here somewhere!

Also it would take the confusion out of the common problem. You get a text or the common posts on here. Hey!! You hear about that 200in deer killed in Iowa I wonder if it was a "legit" kill or "pen raised"
 
I don't think high fence is the 'norm' in any kind of hunting. I don't have any ill-will towards you iowabruce, but I also don't think you and I have any sort of the same mindset towards hunting.

I share similar views as many of the people replying on this thread. High fence just doesn't do it for me. At the end of the day, those animals were put there. They can't leave. It's pretty simple if you ask me..... not fair chase... end of story. It's not what I consider hunting.

Also, I know many of these high fence operations differ.. both in size and operation, so we can't write blanket statements condemning all of them. BUT, they all share one common feature... a cage.
 
hoythunter28 said:
I wonder if the situation ever comes up..when your taking a youth out hunting and a small buck comes out the hunter who has never killed a deer before "begs" and "begs" to kill that deer.(since they have never killed a deer before) what would u say to the kid who's hunting in the high fence? No!! U can't kill that deer, there's a 200in running around here somewhere!

Also it would take the confusion out of the common problem. You get a text or the common posts on here. Hey!! You hear about that 200in deer killed in Iowa I wonder if it was a "legit" kill or "pen raised"
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Your kidding yourself if you think they are letting those kids kill the top end animals.

A pen is meant for keeping domestic animals. I would not shoot a domestic animal.
 
Dwilk,

Do you really think I have a different mindset on hunting. I'm 52 years old and have hunted wild iowa deer since I was 11. I own my own 70 acres that I've managed for the last 20 years. I grew up hunting in a time when we needed the food just to have meat on the table, and in my dad's own words...."here's 2 shells, don't miss"

So how are your thoughts different than mine on hunting? One last question, does the size of the enclosure determine if it's fair chase in your opinion?

Would it matter if it was 4000 acres? Would you still think it was a cage with 6 1/4 square miles for the deer to roam, or do you not think a buck could get away from you in that big of area? If you were invited on a Texas Hill Country exotic hunt on that big of an area fenced, would you consider it?

The problem gang is you are only considering a fence and no other factor in determining what is fair and what is not or what my definition is compared to yours. Why is it bad to hunt in one of these preserves, just because you wouldn't?
 
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