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The "Right" Number of Does

This 52 acres suffered from a bully buck next to Bill Winke's ground...watch the entire clip. In the long run, you will put more big mature bucks on the wall taking out bully bucks and passing young bucks with good genetics.

Its kind of taking the one step back to take 2 steps forward approach getting rid of the "bully". Sure you burn a tag, but now you have more bucks calling your place home till the next "bully" shows up...then it time to start the process all over again.

I am with Skip, I like to call it "filtering" out. Young bucks that are 140 for instance are off limits. The mature bucks are all okay to shoot...this allows those younger bucks to mature, call your place home and then you can start the filtering process again.

http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/gallery/96/media/3758/midwest-whitetails-latest-show.html
 
I agree on bully bucks -- that they certainly exist. It's just that I don't think we can -- just be noticing a few observations -- figure out exactly which ones they are a high percentage of the time. And I don't think most people correctly deem the genetic potential of the buck they may deem to be a bully buck (or correctly deem the age). I also don't think most bully bucks chase other bucks out of very large areas -- and keep them out of there all the time.

I had a 135 inch "bully buck" I watched, for instance, chase a 170 inch buck out of a clover field every chance he got three years ago. But the 170 inch buck didn't leave my farm because of it. He just shied away from that field. The next year, I shot that same bully buck and he grossed nearly 170 inches typical. If I'd have shot him as a 135 inch what would I have accomplished? I say it is silly to shoot a buck that you don't really want to shoot. If one KNOWS a buck is older than say 6.5 years, and one KNOWS that that buck is keeping other really good bucks out of a main hunting area -- or is breaking all their racks up -- and one is happy to shoot that deer, then I say go for it. But, it is so hard for most people to know how old these bucks are once they get past that 4.5 year mark and so hard to know what kind of buck they may become that I think it is usually best to let them grow into old age whenever possible (into that 7-10 year old age class). Nothing wrong with shooting a 7 or 8 year old 130 inch "beater buck" though, in my opinion -- what a real trophy that is! I just think judging these mostly younger aggressive bucks we call “bully’s” and deeming them forever inferior is silly when we don't really know until we let them grow and let them show what they can offer when they reach their full potential in years.

Like Dedgeez says, too, much of the breeding, in so many areas in general is being done by bucks in the 3.5 and younger age bracket (when the older bucks may be with a doe the younger ones are with all the other does coming into season). So many people lose sight of that. With no idea of the potential of these bucks at these younger ages, we take what we get in terms of genetics. And trying to control it by shooting what we see as ugly or low potential "cull" bucks that may be middle age is just counter-productive and backward thinking. This really does nothing for the fellow with an average to large size piece of land --say anything less than 500 acres, and free ranging Iowa deer. You need property tucked inside a deer fence for that to work, in my opinion. And -- a highly trained eye and intimate knowledge of the animal in question. And the does contribute equally too. Sometimes that's easy to forget.

What I used to think about deer staying “at home”, and on my property, has since been washed away with the help of advanced and up to the second scouting cameras with instantaneous emailing technology. I have seen several bucks that I used to think stayed on my farm and in my sanctuary almost all of the time that I have come to find out are roaming one or even two miles away in all directions of the compass for at least a few days each year. We have seen this on multiple farms when running these systems. Nearly every buck -- if not every single one -- on your farm is going to roam a long way off too most likely at least once during the year and possibly for several days or weeks. There is nothing that can be done, in my opinion to stop it. If the first doe of the season is in heat and upwind a mile away from your farm on November 01 that is plenty reason enough for your “at home” buck to hit the road jack! It happens. While he’s gone searching a 1.5 year old deer with bad genes breeds a doe that just comes into heat on your farm. Tough deal but we can’t control everything.

Guess I got off track there a bit. Back on -- the absolute best thing anyone can do to help themselves out with trying to shoot a monster buck, in my opinion, is to simply shoot bucks in that 4.5 year old and older age bracket. It’s that simple. This way, at least all the bucks get to show what they can do and most will show something pretty impressive by the time they get to that age! Oh, and shooting some does is pretty important too! Keep enough to bring in the bucks but not so many that they are like flies at the picnic table.

Good luck and have fun….Rich
 
I just think judging these mostly younger aggressive bucks we call “bully’s” and deeming them forever inferior is silly when we don't really know until we let them grow and let them show what they can offer when they reach their full potential in years.


I agree, bully bucks would apply mostly to smaller acerage farms and they have to be aged right. If you have 300-1000 acres, they are not going to push them anywhere close to off your property for instance.

Would not consider a bully buck 4.5, but rather a 5.5 or older buck that has been on the farm a few years to know his age that is not progressing much in antlers....time to take those deer out and see what takes their place.
 
I agree with what you are saying letemgrow. The one thing that I see here on my 100 acre farm is that the oldest bucks -- those in that 6.5 year old and older range -- are never (and I hate to use the word "never" but so far I haven't seen it) the aggressors. The oldest bucks are usually living a life someone isolated and off to the side from the others. They can and do get pushed around by other bucks but they don't leave the farm if habitat conditions are good and lots of does are present -- well they do leave, as I mentioned -- but come back to hang out most of the time anyway. Most of the aggressive bucks that I see here are the 3.5 - 5.5 year old's (most often the 3 year old's)
 
The 3.5s are certainly the most active breeders IMO, they can hold their own in any fight and also cover larger ranges is seems than say a fully mature buck looking for does.

If they are the bully on the farm, then there is no bully buck to shoot :D
 
What I used to think about deer staying “at home”, and on my property, has since been washed away with the help of advanced and up to the second scouting cameras with instantaneous emailing technology. I have seen several bucks that I used to think stayed on my farm and in my sanctuary almost all of the time that I have come to find out are roaming one or even two miles away in all directions of the compass for at least a few days each year. We have seen this on multiple farms when running these systems. Nearly every buck -- if not every single one -- on your farm is going to roam a long way off too most likely at least once during the year and possibly for several days or weeks. There is nothing that can be done, in my opinion to stop it.

Similarly, I just heard a first hand story today from a very dedicated deer manager/hunter that has a very intimate knowledge of the deer in his hunting area through personal scouting/spotting and sophisticated use of multiple trail cams. For no discernable reason one particularly noteworthy buck that he was really focused on and prepared to hunt just up and moved right around the 1st of November about 1/2 mile away.

Fortunately though he relocated in another area that this hunter could still keep tabs on him, and stayed there..whew! Then about 3 weeks later...he moved back "home" and was killed soon thereafter. But Mr. Big had everything(does, cover, food, sanctuary, etc.) a big deer could want on his home range...but he still packed his bags and went rutting somewhere else.

Big buck movement is fascinating stuff to me. Without the trail cams and spotting scopes, etc, this hunter may have been freaking out when Mr. Big disappeared just before "prime time". But he knew he was still alive, if not unkillable, in his temporary rut range due to the advanced scouting opportunities that we have nowadays. The old theories are being reformed in many cases as to what these animals do and when and why.
 
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If they are the bully on the farm, then there is no bully buck to shoot :D

I agree with this and with what Rich is saying. I saw on IW (Iowa) maybe two weeks ago in which a fairly young and decent looking buck was taken because he was deemed the "bully"

I remember thinking why and that no way could I take an animal like that knowing he might grow into a great deer.

:thrwrck:

I do have one old 8 on my farm that i swear is a 'lunch $- stealing-beat you up after school' BULLY and if he ever got close enough I might be calling the hotline with a report :D
 
I agree with this and with what Rich is saying. I saw on IW (Iowa) maybe two weeks ago in which a fairly young and decent looking buck was taken because he was deemed the "bully"

I remember thinking why and that no way could I take an animal like that knowing he might grow into a great deer.

:thrwrck:

I think you meant MidWestWhitetail Iowa....and yah, I saw the same episode. I have watched a lot of hunts on tv and the internet where guys shoot smaller racked deer and say that they were 'bully bucks' or deer with 'bad genetics' when most of the time they don't know their age or status. Not saying that this was the case on that episode, but that deer did look like it had the potential to possibly turn into something.
 
Yep, your right SS on your comments and the episode (MW..not IW)

I just put baby down to sleep after he got done crying for an hour and Im not right in the head ;)
 
Still think this centering on the antlers as to what is "Good", or "bad", is crazy. Of coarse if that is your standard,,,Ok, but to me the "Bully Bucks", are the real trophy. A buck that has made it past all the people after it for 5 or 6 seasons,, that,,,is a trophy! No matter what he has on his head.
 
A lot of the bully bucks that I know of don't 'make it' but instead are passed up due to a less desirable rack.....
 
A lot of the bully bucks that I know of don't 'make it' but instead are passed up due to a less desirable rack.....


Couldn't agree more- u r right on!!! I can't tell u how many 155" 3.5's I've seen being killed after passing a 5.5 130" 8 point for example. I wish folks would b willing to shoot those old deer that need to go and met their potential and let the 3.5, etc go that score well but r far from their potential. Again- ur right on and I hope more folks will b willing to shoot those in future!!
 
Being we don't have tags in Mississippi we can kill 3 buck 5 doe's plus 2 more does with a bow. Anytime I see a old mature deer that his rack has gone down hill I shoot him considering he is 5.5+.
 
Just wondering how you know that a particular buck is 5.5 plus....trail cam documentation or body characteristics? I know I could post some of my trail pics that I've got over the years and fool a lot of people. Seems like every time someone post a pic and asks how old we think it is there are a wide range of 'guesses.' Personally, I think that aging a deer beyond 4 is a crapshoot. They are just like people, some are big, some are small, some have sagging bellies and some dont. The buck my hunting partner shot this year was 5.5. We had three years of pictures of him which is how we knew. Anyways, he had one of the smallest bodies I have ever seen on a mature buck. I have seen does bigger than him. Maybe I'm just a poor judge when it comes to trying to age a buck just by looking at its body, but I'm thinking most of us just throw out an educated guess.....emphasis on the guess.
 
IMO after 5-6 it doesn't really matter anyway. Without trail cam documentation it is indeed a crapshoot. but in most cases they seem to make a significant body change from 3 to 4. Like I said earlier, bully bucks or not, the only true way to manage for "big" deer is to let them get old. :way: The buck I shot this year went from a 140 class 9 at 4 to a 170 class 9 at 6. That's not a huge jump, but pretty good for a main frame 9. imo
 
sureshot1 said:
Just wondering how you know that a particular buck is 5.5 plus....trail cam documentation or body characteristics? I know I could post some of my trail pics that I've got over the years and fool a lot of people. Seems like every time someone post a pic and asks how old we think it is there are a wide range of 'guesses.' Personally, I think that aging a deer beyond 4 is a crapshoot. They are just like people, some are big, some are small, some have sagging bellies and some dont. The buck my hunting partner shot this year was 5.5. We had three years of pictures of him which is how we knew. Anyways, he had one of the smallest bodies I have ever seen on a mature buck. I have seen does bigger than him. Maybe I'm just a poor judge when it comes to trying to age a buck just by looking at its body, but I'm thinking most of us just throw out an educated guess.....emphasis on the guess.

Where I hunt a lot of deer don't have hardly any browtines so we try to kill most that are like that to help the geine pool. When you see a sway back long snout deer you can tell he's old. A guy killed a 8 yr old right next to my property that I was going to kill cause I had see him year after year and new he was old. He's rack was not big at all. The deer only was only 165 pounds. My dad also killed a 16 inch inside spread had some good mass 6 point that was 6.5. He had bird shot plasterd in his side and was missing a toe
 
IMO after 5-6 it doesn't really matter anyway. Without trail cam documentation it is indeed a crapshoot. but in most cases they seem to make a significant body change from 3 to 4. Like I said earlier, bully bucks or not, the only true way to manage for "big" deer is to let them get old. :way: The buck I shot this year went from a 140 class 9 at 4 to a 170 class 9 at 6. That's not a huge jump, but pretty good for a main frame 9. imo
Yep!
Also- if I only had a couple trail cam pics to go off of- I think I and most can guess within a year- especially if 2.5-4.5 year olds. Get me out seeing the deer outta my stand with binos on him makes a huge difference vs trail cam. And if ur trying to get rid of inferior genetics- if a deer is a 6 or 8 that's say 130 and I think he's 4.5 or older- I'll shoot and don't care if he's 5.5 or 8.5. I do shoot good genetic bucks at 5.5+ and after aging them, we r correct about 80% of the time and when we do make a mistake, it's usually within a year and most of those have been a year older than thought. It's not a perfect science but someone with reasonable experience and desire to make wise biological decisions can accomplish this the majority of the time. 2 more days and me and some buddies r targeting some old bucks with inferior genetics- I'm pumped!!
 
Guys with large tracks that hold the same deer, year after yr, seen on cameras, , judging ages,, are in a whole other league than those with small pass through properties.
 
Guys with large tracks that hold the same deer, year after yr, seen on cameras, , judging ages,, are in a whole other league than those with small pass through properties.


Not necessarily! I killed a 5 year old 10, 3 years ago and my buck this year (6 yr old) off a 40 acre piece (mostly CRP). Pressure on 3 sides. Plant food and don't hunt it until it's right, and you will have big deer. The one nice thing about Iowa is that you don't have to have a big chunk to kill big deer. Sure they wander, all of the neighbors had seen and were hunting the buck I killed this year. With the last and best available food source, we had the does, so he always came home. :D
 
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