Thought of day- NR’s, lobbyists & politicians wanting to change our laws..

[Rous14]

One point of clarification that’s important IMO…. A lot or MOST of the “shoot does” RIGHTFULLY stems from this general idea or situation …. The dudes that always shot the young bucks. When there is “a good # of does”….. LET’S SHOOT “A DOE” VS SHOOTING ANOTHER YOUNG BUCK!!!! (Or just want ONE for freezer) Which I actually think is a very very very good thing & good change!!!!!! Where that precise motive & goal changes or veers a vastly different direction is: “I used to shoot a doe vs shooting another small buck…. If that’s good…. Let’s shoot 10 does!!!” …. & countless guys with multiple small tracts doing the same. If 10 guys shoot 10 does off small tracts for example- clearly we can see it going the other direction REALLY FAST. & that does happen!!!!!! It’s so hard to balance.
When above rightfully shoots 30 deer off one farm- I personally know guys like that are spot on with the thinking & results. When Jim Bob & 40 cousins all shoot a pile of does not really knowing about deer density - it can destroy an area & does.

SO!! …. IMO- Shooting does vs another small buck- awesome!!! Shooting way too many does for guys that are not dialed in to deer management - not a good thing. Deer managers in uniquely high density areas surgically taking the right amount out with a lot of knowledge- great!!
The balance & folks doing right thing is what’s way out of whack right now. Most folks are shooting & not understanding deer densities/populations.

Average it all out… educated deer managers + general public - overall - too many does are shot in Midwest. Period, IMO

Great point Skip, totally agree. I’d add to your very last sentence/equation…..educated deer managers + general public - coyote explosion - overall - too many does being killed

I know you’ve been raging against them on here and I’m with ya. Don’t think most hunters are factoring in just how much damage those damn hyenas have done and continue to do to fawn recruitment and overall herd numbers.

 

[Daver]

Just a FWIW, with a fresh skiff of snow on the ground this AM...the coyote hunters are out IN FORCE today around our area. But...we then really don't see the radical coyote population around here then either. Pros and cons, pros and cons...

 

[Daver]

Also, between us and nearby neighbors, we had to have shot 25+ does this year. But...there are still "too many". We must be in that 10% zone or something.

For real...it is highly situational.

 

[Rous14]

Also, between us and nearby neighbors, we had to have shot 25+ does this year. But...there are still "too many". We must be in that 10% zone or something.

For real...it is highly situational.

It is but at the same time my concern is that if 90% of the state(s) is down significantly I feel like we’re not sending the message that needs to be sent. “Highly situational” sounds way too much like it’s a 50/50 issue and it’s not even close.

90% is a huge number. And at least in IL even that number is probably not high enough. 90% of every farm/hunter/land manager should not be shooting does (or at bare minimum very few does).

That’s a very different message/tone than it’s highly situational imo. Right now 90% of hunters believe they should kill does.

 

[Rous14]

Also, between us and nearby neighbors, we had to have shot 25+ does this year. But...there are still "too many". We must be in that 10% zone or something.

For real...it is highly situational.

Curious too Daver, would you say in your area that there are more, less, or about the same number of deer than there was around 15 years ago in that area (I’m assuming you’ve been there that long, if not disregard the question).?

Along the same lines, would you say the quantity of really good bucks is higher or lower than then too?

 

[Daver]

It is but at the same time my concern is that if 90% of the state(s) is down significantly I feel like we’re not sending the message that needs to be sent. “Highly situational” sounds way too much like it’s a 50/50 issue and it’s not even close.

90% is a huge number. And at least in IL even that number is probably not high enough. 90% of every farm/hunter/land manager should not be shooting does (or at bare minimum very few does).

That’s a very different message/tone than it’s highly situational imo. Right now 90% of hunters believe they should kill does.

Highly situational means it varies from neighborhood to neighborhood, not state to state, not even county to county. Don't read more into my words than what I said and then extrapolate my situation to your situation.

 

[Rous14]

Highly situational means it varies from neighborhood to neighborhood, not state to state, not even county to county. Don't read more into my words than what I said and then extrapolate my situation to your situation.

Sorry, not trying to do that nor trying to rile you up. Have always appreciated your posts probably as much or more than any on this board and that’s saying something bc there’s a heck of a group of guys on here. Didn’t think you’d take my post the direction you did, again sorry. I must have it worded poorly

 

[Daver]

Curious too Daver, would you say in your area that there are more, less, or about the same number of deer than there was around 15 years ago in that area (I’m assuming you’ve been there that long, if not disregard the question).?

Along the same lines, would you say the quantity of really good bucks is higher or lower than then too?

Overall, ehhh, about the same to down a little over 15 years on overall population. Go back though to when I bought my farm 20 years ago, which happens to coincide fairly closely as to when other like minded people bought their places around me...and numbers on my farm are up dramatically.

Once I started putting plots in, cutting timber, not running drives, etc, we probably increased 5x, or more, the number of deer around. Nothing had been done on the ground that I now own in terms of benefiting wildlife prior to me buying it, fwiw. Same with neighboring places.

Good bucks...roughly the same today v. 15 years ago'ish. Definitely more though than 20 years ago. Not as many as say 6 to 8 years ago though. Cycles.

Here I will tie into a post that our fearless leader Skip made recently. (Not sure what thread it is in.) But he explains, exceptionally well IMO, the dynamic of allowing too many, I'll call them mid-range bucks, to live on your place at one time.

Looking back...we definitely let this "problem " develop on our place IMO...as we were deliberately in a mode for a number of years where we were laying off anything less than 5 year old bucks. Well, mostly...there were a couple of mistakes made in those years.

However, MANY bucks were passed, by us and also neighbors, in this time period to the point that there were, relatively speaking, A LOT of "space takers" living on, or around us.

I eventually became persuaded differently, primarily by listening to Don Higgins, that it is better to pass not all younger bucks, but the high potential bucks, and make a point of taking "average class", and below, bucks to make "room" for the freaks.

This past fall was our first fall where we began to employ that strategy. So, it remains to be seen, but I am optimistic about the future.

Meanwhile...we still need to stay on top of does...in our area. But, driving to and from my farm...it is very clear that overall deer numbers are down significantly in the region that I travel through. In those areas, doe shooting should be curtailed, I agree. But not at our place, FWIW.

 

[Daver]

Sorry, not trying to do that nor trying to rile you up. Have always appreciated your posts probably as much or more than any on this board and that’s saying something bc there’s a heck of a group of guys on here. Didn’t think you’d take my post the direction you did, again sorry. I must have it worded poorly

No prob, all good. I do kind of have a thing though when I think someone is arguing with me about something I have experienced.

Keep posting, I am trying to help.

 

[newfarmer]

Curious too Daver, would you say in your area that there are more, less, or about the same number of deer than there was around 15 years ago in that area (I’m assuming you’ve been there that long, if not disregard the question).?

Along the same lines, would you say the quantity of really good bucks is higher or lower than then too?

I know I shot 3 does and pry should have shot 4-5 more. I have 80 deer in my food plot as I type this.
That being said, right now I literally have a 4 smile stretch of river bottom and they are all here. My buddy lives at that 4 mile mark and he doesn’t have a track. So I do know that because I have 80 here right now doesn’t mean I have to many deer.
A similar situation a couple years ago- farmer had a huge waste problem with his combine and was drawing every deer for MILES. Everyone said “shoot more deer” “there’s 500 here in this field, shoot more”. They hammered them in that field and were inviting everyone to come. That next fall no one was seeing numbers at all, and now the county only gets 50 doe tags. Extreme case, but situational awareness goes a long ways too.
Situational awareness to anyone trying to push bills to kill more- as a group of dedicated guys like we all are understand- we need to be able to get that point across to everyone. I mean we look at a field of deer right now that might be 2 miles from the nearest woods, where do you think those deer actually live? There might be a lot of people that don’t actually understand that (unfortunately)

 

[MarkF]

My area is overrun with deer, we took about 50 does off 1000 acres this season and it seems like we didn’t do anything. 15-20 years ago the area consistently produced giants, not so much anymore. When my neighbor bought his 200 acres 15 years ago he had 7 bucks from 170-200 on it, this year we had two bucks in the 160s on a 1000.

 

[Daver]

My area is overrun with deer, we took about 50 does off 1000 acres this season and it seems like we didn’t do anything. 15-20 years ago the area consistently produced giants, not so much anymore. When my neighbor bought his 200 acres 15 years ago he had 7 bucks from 170-200 on it, this year we had two bucks in the 160s on a 1000.

Just curious...what do you attribute that shift to?

 

[MarkF]

Just curious...what do you attribute that shift to?

I would assume the over population has something to do with it but I think the biggest factor is that the area got really popular and now there’s a ton of hunting pressure. Back then it was mostly cow pastures with a couple big managed farms, the more popular it got the more farms got bought and turned into hunting farms and now there’s multiple people hunting every piece. It’s a really good area for producing tons of 150 class bucks but the upper end deer are few and far between, I believe a lot of the big deer 15 years ago were 6-8 years old and now everyone knows about every deer and if it’s big it’s dead at 5, only deer that get old are the crusty bucks that nobody wants to shoot.

 

[Windlooker]

All of this said, and all valid, as we know politicians will not dig that deeply and only hear there is a deer population problem. They will choose the easy button. As Hardwood mentioned a compromise, that is least damaging, may be necessary. If one had to be chosen what does that look like? Idk. The IBA has stroke.

I think you battle plan for every scenario. For example, is the reimplementation of late shed buck season a result of inflexibility? Compromise is a last choice but IF it was necessary, what is it.

 

[chipterp]

Someone told me the other day the DNR is starting to track phones to determine if NRs who are claiming residency are actually there for 6 months of the year. Anyone else heard of this staring to happen? I’m all for it by the way. If the rewards were substantial I could make a lot of money .

 

[Daver]

I would assume the over population has something to do with it but I think the biggest factor is that the area got really popular and now there’s a ton of hunting pressure. Back then it was mostly cow pastures with a couple big managed farms, the more popular it got the more farms got bought and turned into hunting farms and now there’s multiple people hunting every piece. It’s a really good area for producing tons of 150 class bucks but the upper end deer are few and far between, I believe a lot of the big deer 15 years ago were 6-8 years old and now everyone knows about every deer and if it’s big it’s dead at 5, only deer that get old are the crusty bucks that nobody wants to shoot.

Thanks, that seems quite plausible to me. I suspect that you are right on the money with your analysis.

 

[Daver]

Someone told me the other day the DNR is starting to track phones to determine if NRs who are claiming residency are actually there for 6 months of the year. Anyone else heard of this staring to happen? I’m all for it by the way. If the rewards were substantial I could make a lot of money .

Yikes. While I know that there are plenty of "residents" that spend an awful lot of their time "visiting" other states...I also don't like the big gubmint tracking folks. I would be doubtful about this one, but that is just me.

 

[newfarmer]

Someone told me the other day the DNR is starting to track phones to determine if NRs who are claiming residency are actually there for 6 months of the year. Anyone else heard of this staring to happen? I’m all for it by the way. If the rewards were substantial I could make a lot of money .

I’ve heard from a very reliable source this is currently happening to certain group of people already under a watchful eye. I wouldn’t say it’s just an every day thing-they sure don’t have time for that

 

[chipterp]

Yikes. While I know that there are plenty of "residents" that spend an awful lot of their time "visiting" other states...I also don't like the big gubmint tracking folks. I would be doubtful about this one, but that is just me.

It’s a huge problem and ask any realtor who is buying all the farms resident / nonresidents these days. Whatever it takes I’m for it.

 

[hillrunner]

It’s a huge problem and ask any realtor who is buying all the farms resident / nonresidents these days. Whatever it takes I’m for it.

No way am I on board with our government tracking us by our phones. I don't care how "just" the reason. If they can use it on them, they can use it on all of us. You have no idea what they could use that power for next.