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Thoughts on arming teachers?

W

Wapsi Tree Rat

Well-Known Member
My 7th grader had an active shooter/intruder drill at school today. They've done these drills before, but today was very different. The secretary did some good acting on the intercom and called out active shooter in a frightened and shaky voice.

In coordination with the local police, protocol is run to the nearest exit and flee the building, unless you are close proximity to the shooter. In that case lock down and grab what you can to put up a fight, should the intruder breech the locked door.

My son was in gym class but near the "location", so they were hustled into the weight room and locked down. The kids sensed this could be the real deal today and they armed up with dumbbell bars and some golf clubs somebody found. My son reports some 8th grade boys nearly in tears. The administration let this drill go on for a good 20 minutes today before giving up that it was just a drill. All good in my opinion.

Here's the part I find interesting. My son told me that for about 20 minutes today, there was a lot more kids than yesterday wishing their teacher was carrying. What those Jr. high kids realized was that if someone with a gun came through that weight room door, without return firepower, they were all screwed.

With proper training and local police coordination, (so all weapons are on the same page in a crisis) I want my children protected with firearms. I think the majority here feel this way. Some may not and that's OK, not here to argue about that. What I'm more interested in is if anyone else has asked their kids and their friends how they feel about it and what their thoughts have been. The real question is "have most of our kids been so liberalized and indoctrinated that they don't feel comfortable around an "evil gun" even if a psycho had one pointed at them?" Well, not my kids. Your thoughts?
 
Just my thoughts...I find the approach that your school took to be VERY interesting in that they ran a drill that the participants did not know was a drill. While some may disagree, I think that is quite a good idea and I applaud it. Let's just say that I doubt any of them ever forget it.

Additionally...when the situation was "real", or in this case, perceived to be real, people wanted the opportunity to defend themselves. This makes sense to me. When the question is "academic" in that a given person has not actually experienced a real attack, thankfully, OR been put in a place where they really thought it was real...they may have an anti-gun approach.

I am at least in favor of exploring the viability of some teachers, only teachers that want to and have been trained, carrying. FWIW, one of my own beloved sons is a teacher, as is my wife BTW, also beloved :), and he and I have talked about this a few times lately. At this point, he is not interested in perhaps being one of those teachers, should there come a point where it is an option...BUT Dad here suspects that had he been a part of the drill that Wapsi refers to...he could quite possibly change his mind.
 
Yep, only the secretary and the principal knew about today's drill beforehand. He said teachers were clearly shaken too. I've been very pleased with our school district on this issue taking a proactive stance. (not so much on some other issues:confused:) Since Sandy Hook they've done periodic faculty drills on a Saturday with local law enforcement, acting out scenarios and using pop guns to get the adrenaline going and real effect. Hate that it's come to it but it's good training for my also beloved wife:)who is also a teacher.
I agree with you Daver, not in favor of giving every teacher a gun.
Only those willing to use it in the most dire circumstances.
Only those who clear extensive background checks.
Background checks renewed every 90 days.
Only with same deadly force training as law enforcement.
Only with local police collaboration.
Only with no disclosure on who is carrying.
Only with concealed carry.

I'd defend my family without hesitation. I honestly don't know if I'd want to be an armed teacher responsible for taking out a shooter in a chaotic situation with children running everywhere. That's a tough one.
 
Wapsi Tree said:
Yep, only the secretary and the principal knew about today's drill beforehand. He said teachers were clearly shaken too. I've been very pleased with our school district on this issue taking a proactive stance. (not so much on some other issues:confused:) Since Sandy Hook they've done periodic faculty drills on a Saturday with local law enforcement, acting out scenarios and using pop guns to get the adrenaline going and real effect. Hate that it's come to it but it's good training for my also beloved wife:)who is also a teacher.
I agree with you Daver, not in favor of giving every teacher a gun.
Only those willing to use it in the most dire circumstances.
Only those who clear extensive background checks.
Background checks renewed every 90 days.
Only with same deadly force training as law enforcement.
Only with local police collaboration.
Only with no disclosure on who is carrying.
Only with concealed carry.

I'd defend my family without hesitation. I honestly don't know if I'd want to be an armed teacher responsible for taking out a shooter in a chaotic situation with children running everywhere. That's a tough one.
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Agree. ^^ One hybrid option, assuming that teachers are allowed to carry at some point, would be that the protocol would be that the teacher can only defend, not pursue the gunner(s). I can see that it could be very chaotic and dangerous if law enforcement enter a building and come across a teacher with a gun in their hand, etc. But I also think that if the idea is out there that there may be armed teachers in a given school that the losers that perpetrate these acts will think twice about just waltzing into a school building and shooting defenseless people with little concern that someone could shoot back.
 
Very tough subject and one that all taxpayers (in addition to parents) will need to consider. Most districts spend a lot of funds on non-academic activities and I am an avid supporter of all such activities. However, we may be entering a future in which districts may have to dedicate a portion of their budgets to pay for enhancements to the protection of all students whether that be armed guards-faculty and/or fully secure entrances. Administrators and school boards will have some very tough decisions in the coming decades.
 
I've been asked this question a lot lately, being both a teacher and big redneck. My wife and I were having this debate last night actually. I was for it, she was not. I honestly don't know if I would carry or not. In my position I probably wouldn't. Everyone brings up a lot of good points on both sides. I'm gonna agree with Daver in saying for only defending and hopefully it might detour someone from doing it the first place. But in all honesty whether there is a police officer in every school building or a handful of teachers carrying once the weapon is inside the building its too late. Something bad is gonna happen regardless. Here is something to think about. A good friend mine is an officer and for years he was working as a full time officer at the school. Was there every day all day. Years ago the school was informed of a kid having a gun so after interviewing the kid he admitted to bring a pistol to school the previous day. When asked what his intentions were he looked at my buddy and said I knew if I pointed it you would have to shoot me. The kid was trying to commit suicide. No way of knowing that in the moment but I do know it would of ruined his life. Whether its arming teachers, looking at entrance/exits in schools, windows, internal threat policies, external threat policies, or hundred other things schools need to take a serious look at everything. Wapsi I commend your district for taking action. If you would please shoot me a pm or something. I am curious to know what district.
 
Also curious how this drill didn't create panic in the community with kids sending texts or messages home during the actual drill. I would think the school would have been overrun with parents.
 
Hawk32 said:
Also curious how this drill didn't create panic in the community with kids sending texts or messages home during the actual drill. I would think the school would have been overrun with parents.
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I'm curious to this as well? If the drill was really a surprise, I would expect police to be surrounding the building, media probably alerted along with obviously the parents . I know if my kid texted me about a gunman in school I'd do anything possible to get in those doors.
 
All drills are run in coordination with the local police, so they were well aware.

Cell service is terrible in the school. It's weird, I have 4g service but as soon as I pull into the parking lot I have next to nothing. My mobile hot spot in my truck literally shuts down. Some messages did get out though. Here is the mass email and text that went out immediately afterwards. I have left out names and signatures.

We just finished conducting an intruder drill at XXX. In the event that you heard from your son/daughter, all are safe. This is why we practice.
Thank you.
 
You guys are good! Got me thinking on those details.
1. My kid said it went 20 minutes. He probably wasn't staring at the clock and it would have seemed like eternity, so it is certainly possible the drill was a bit shorter. They've done intruder drills before but this was the first time it was done without announcing it was a drill.
2. Kids are allowed to have their phones at this middle school but they are supposed to be in lockers until the end of the day. If your phone is even seen, it is confiscated and can only be claimed by a parent in the office. The majority of kids follow that rule. Some carry in their back pack but those were likely left behind in the scramble.
3. I wasn't there but I'm sure they had a squad car out front just in case of messages getting out and parents trying to get in.
 
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My thoughts are give certified, trained, and willing teachers and staff the option. Make it known that the school allows it. Even if no teachers are willing it will put a doubt in the mind of anyone wanting to enter the school to cause harm.
 
Being a teacher myself, I've been advocating the position of selected teachers carrying for some time now. Obviously, the best option would be an armed law enforcement officer stationed in every building nationwide. Depending on the size of the facility, perhaps 2 or 3. I much prefer this option to teachers carrying. It's the approach that Israel takes...they have no choice, it's the law. Not surprisingly, they have the lowest reported incidence of school shootings in the world. They also have extremely restrictive gun laws regarding private ownership too. But since I'm aware that many districts are completely cash strapped as is, and it'd probably cost 6 figures per year per building to implement this, I think having teachers carry is a viable alternative. Training, testing, more training and more testing is the key to making it work. Trust me...there are nut jobs in the front of a classroom too, and we do NOT want them packing! Having said all of this, if our state and district were to approve such a plan, I'd be the first to sign up.

And referencing comments made earlier about schools teaching the liberal lifestyle to the point that kids can't think critically about these issues, my advice is to turn off FOX and conservative talk radio. I'm as conservative as the next guy, but what you hear in these media outlets about the indoctrination of our students in public schools just isn't true. I know it gets them ratings from the rah-rah crowd, so they'll keep shouting, but it's not reality. Not even close...
 
NWBuck said:
....I'm as conservative as the next guy, but what you hear in these media outlets about the indoctrination of our students in public schools just isn't true....
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No question FOX is biased conservative. Also no question CNN is biased liberal....especially on firearms issues. So an honest question for you...
Do you have a problem with CNN as part of the social studies classroom/curriculum? That kinda bothers me. Should it not?
 
Well, if you're asking me what should be in an AP Calculus curriculum, I think I'm qualified to provide input. If it is the social studies curriculum, I am not. What happens in a typical classroom is very much controlled by the individual teacher. Yes, there are liberal teachers out there...and conservative too. In Iowa it somewhat varies urban versus rural. I'm sure there are things on CNN that would be totally appropriate for certain classrooms, and other things that would obviously not be. The same would be true about FOX. The point I was making is that conservative outlets so often paint with the broad brush that says public schools are training little liberal brain-washed robots who aren't capable of independent rational thought. I've been in enough schools and know enough faculty members to tell you that this just isn't the case on a wide scale. My 2 cents...about time for the next class to show up!

NWBuck
 
I've received emails that our schools will be starting active intruder drills. I guess I'd hope they announce the first one or two but then keep them secret. We already sent our kids to active shooter classes put on by a local taekwando instructor. They were great classes and even in a known situation all 3 kids froze up. We talk to them quite a bit on what they should do,I hope they never have to deal with the situation.
 
I guess to answer the question.. I'm all for giving a gun to a teacher that wants to hold it so long as they go thru proper training.

Thoughts though...

What about the potential extra bullets flying around and "friendly fire" taking out a kid accidentally?

What about cops coming in and potentially killing a teacher accidentally?

So many scenarios
 
I am not sold on the idea at all. I freely admit that being from Davenport and knowing many high school and junior high school teachers colors my opinion. I would rather see the money and time spent on building security and staff run by the local PD or Sheriffs Department. I would also much rather see the social conditions that are the real root of the problem addressed.
 
NWBuck said:
Well, if you're asking me what should be in an AP Calculus curriculum, I think I'm qualified to provide input. If it is the social studies curriculum, I am not. What happens in a typical classroom is very much controlled by the individual teacher. Yes, there are liberal teachers out there...and conservative too. In Iowa it somewhat varies urban versus rural. I'm sure there are things on CNN that would be totally appropriate for certain classrooms, and other things that would obviously not be. The same would be true about FOX. The point I was making is that conservative outlets so often paint with the broad brush that says public schools are training little liberal brain-washed robots who aren't capable of independent rational thought. I've been in enough schools and know enough faculty members to tell you that this just isn't the case on a wide scale. My 2 cents...about time for the next class to show up!

NWBuck
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Just an opinion here...I have much respect for you Dale, but I see the issue of liberal influence in public school settings differently. Perhaps it is just due to our experiences being with different school districts and different people...that would be my suspicion. But my two sons came up through public schools over the years and as conservatives, did run into things at different times in the Iowa City area. Certainly not all teachers were oriented towards pushing their liberal views, but at the same, some definitely were.

It was more prevalent in Sr. High, but I remember my oldest son telling now many years ago that his teacher would no longer call on him when he had his hand raised, including times when no other student in the class had their hand up, following a question to the class from the teacher. He couldn't comprehend it, I had a suspicion that I later confirmed when I asked the teacher directly. She flat out admitted that she "knew what John was going to say" and that she was "looking for other points of view", etc, and was consciously not selecting him because of "his conservative bias". That was in 5th grade. She was always polite to John, but there were many examples of her "shaping" things her way in that class.
 
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