Void area
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DOR
Life Member
One thing that needs to be noted in this picture is the extreme angle that the arrow appears to be sitting at. It is very possible that this shot is not in the chest cavity at all, and if it is, its hard to tell how much penetration has been accomplished. Deer are extremely tough animals and fluke things happen and I view them as the exception rather than the rule. The void argument is a flawed argument explaining something that is not what it appears. (Faulty equipment, arrow angle misjudgment, lack of anatomy knowledge, or simply lack of internal trauma).
Case in point:
My brother shot a mature buck this OCt that was apparently gut shot. He watched the buck bed down 6 different times in a picked corn field for over 2 hours. The buck eventually got up and ran into a pine plantation. We waited till the next morning to recover the deer and it took all the tricks we had to find him including the last attempt which was a 3 man grid search before we finally located him. He traveled 250+ yards with a minimal blood trail. Upon gutting him it was absolutely stunning to see that he had very small holes in each of his rear lung lobes. His Tekan head had failed to open fully and somehow miraculously failed to cause the internal hemorrhage it should have......I would have never believed it if I had not seen it with my own two eyes. So, do I believe that crazy sh!t can happen, yes! However, as someone who has done extensive training in the medical field, I know that there is no "void area" per say! Other explanations for these freak things, again yes, but not a void area.
Case in point:
My brother shot a mature buck this OCt that was apparently gut shot. He watched the buck bed down 6 different times in a picked corn field for over 2 hours. The buck eventually got up and ran into a pine plantation. We waited till the next morning to recover the deer and it took all the tricks we had to find him including the last attempt which was a 3 man grid search before we finally located him. He traveled 250+ yards with a minimal blood trail. Upon gutting him it was absolutely stunning to see that he had very small holes in each of his rear lung lobes. His Tekan head had failed to open fully and somehow miraculously failed to cause the internal hemorrhage it should have......I would have never believed it if I had not seen it with my own two eyes. So, do I believe that crazy sh!t can happen, yes! However, as someone who has done extensive training in the medical field, I know that there is no "void area" per say! Other explanations for these freak things, again yes, but not a void area.
DOUBLE LUNG
Active Member
That is amazing.
I have posted this on here before, but that is definitely what I have called the void area. I shot a buck right there from on the ground back in 1989 and it was a pass-through. I saw the buck again the next day chasing a doe with dried blood caked on both sides of him. He looked like he had no idea he had even been shot. Despite what the drawings say, there is nothing there for vital organs. The intestines are settled into the cavity when the deer is standing. You can't compare the position of organs in a photo of a deer laying on its side to one that is standing. My shot was from the ground as I said, not angling down like it would be from a tree stand. I don't think it is a very big area but you can't kill one by shooting him there. However, with the arrow still in him, I think there's a good chance the infection will eventually kill him, or he is going to run into something that will case the broadhead to puncture someting important. Assuming that the broadhead is not sticking out the other side.
DOR
Life Member
Here is a better story for you Double Lung. Back in 2001, I believe, I was hunting a farm in NE IA for the first time. I looked at my terraserver image and decided to hunt a funnel that connected what appeared to be two thick bedding areas. I got into stand somewhat late at 3:30 and noticed that the pinch I was in actually had an annual rubbing post that happened to be the farmer’s wooden fence post. Over the years the bucks had the darn thing almost completely rubbed in half. I laughed to myself and settled into my stand jokingly thinking that maybe I would see the bruiser that had decided to tango with the thigh-size fence post.
Well, sure enough, at 4:15 a 150 class 9 pointer came out of the cedar/goat prairie knob walking toward me. He hit the fence post with some aggression and walked right past me at 15 yards broadside. I drew my Black Widow and let loose a Zwickey Delta 4 blade tipped arrow, it passed through him like butter, my initial thought was that it was a bit back. The buck jumped out of the thin wood strip into a picked cornfield and stood broadside at 40 yards in the wide open. He had no idea he was fatally hit. I immediately saw some blood coming out of him. Watching closely with my binoculars, I waited for him to tip over. As I observed more closely, I noticed the arrow was indeed a bit back almost smack dab in the middle of his body. It was a sure liver shot if I ever saw one. I waited some more thinking he would soon lay down. This is when the unbelievable occurred. The buck began eating in the picked corn field!!!
Soon enough, some does came out and he chased them up the ridge to my buddy Benny who noticed nothing wrong with the deer.
It was the craziest thing I have ever seen. I waited till the next afternoon to start looking and I ended up looking for that deer for 4 days without any luck.
I described him exactly to the landowner and informed him that the deer was dead, but I could not find him and asked for a call if he ran upon him. 2 weeks later the buck showed up dead on the far side of the farm, some 500 yards from where I had hit him.
Moral of the story. Even if you do everything right (with a less than perfect shot), sometimes deer will show you just how tough of an animal they really are. I never say never when it comes to tracking deer, but I do believe that the general rules we often discuss here hold true 95+% of the time.
Well, sure enough, at 4:15 a 150 class 9 pointer came out of the cedar/goat prairie knob walking toward me. He hit the fence post with some aggression and walked right past me at 15 yards broadside. I drew my Black Widow and let loose a Zwickey Delta 4 blade tipped arrow, it passed through him like butter, my initial thought was that it was a bit back. The buck jumped out of the thin wood strip into a picked cornfield and stood broadside at 40 yards in the wide open. He had no idea he was fatally hit. I immediately saw some blood coming out of him. Watching closely with my binoculars, I waited for him to tip over. As I observed more closely, I noticed the arrow was indeed a bit back almost smack dab in the middle of his body. It was a sure liver shot if I ever saw one. I waited some more thinking he would soon lay down. This is when the unbelievable occurred. The buck began eating in the picked corn field!!!
It was the craziest thing I have ever seen. I waited till the next afternoon to start looking and I ended up looking for that deer for 4 days without any luck.
I described him exactly to the landowner and informed him that the deer was dead, but I could not find him and asked for a call if he ran upon him. 2 weeks later the buck showed up dead on the far side of the farm, some 500 yards from where I had hit him.
Moral of the story. Even if you do everything right (with a less than perfect shot), sometimes deer will show you just how tough of an animal they really are. I never say never when it comes to tracking deer, but I do believe that the general rules we often discuss here hold true 95+% of the time.
medicsnoke
Member
Here's my void story........still cry every time i see this. Ide say two and a half inches below back and prob got 3 inches of void.
http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/article_554.shtml
http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/article_554.shtml
Between four and five and behind the diapragm. See on your buck where the area looks kinda caved in? That's because the intestines are sagging, and there is nothing vital in that area. A couple inches higher and you can cut the dorsal aorta, a couple inches lower and you get guts. Hit him right there and you have hit the void.
Tomo
Member
Here are some pics posted by Horntickler a few years ago. A friend of ours shot this buck with a rifle. The arrow is his brothers from the year before. No this is NOT photoshopped so don't even start.
[image]
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/511/1609pic1.jpg[/image]
This last photo shows how you how tall the blades of the spine are. I'm pretty sure this is what people think is the "void" area.
[image]
http://www.iowawhitetail.com/photopost/data/511/1609pic1.jpg[/image]
This last photo shows how you how tall the blades of the spine are. I'm pretty sure this is what people think is the "void" area.
bowhuntr311
IowaWhitetail Addict
Im only going on therory here but humor me here.
The heart and lungs sit "almost" all the way foward and right on the bottom of the rib cage. The lungs cover a portion of the top of the heart. A deer's heart and lungs take up the bottom what 60% (being generous) Its more than hard for me to believe a deers heart and lungs take up the ENTIRE cavity infront of diaphram. There is no reason for the heart and lungs to be suspended in mid cavity with nothing below and nothing above other than veins/arterys.
Now the artery and the spine take up the top 10% (being generous) of the chest cavity
So there should be room above the heart and lungs and below the spine. The void area could be a small percentage area of the entire chest cavity.
Dean
PS: From the angle of camera as a shooter I would say 1 and 2 would be a spine shot. 3 would probably cut the artery that runs below the spine.
The heart and lungs sit "almost" all the way foward and right on the bottom of the rib cage. The lungs cover a portion of the top of the heart. A deer's heart and lungs take up the bottom what 60% (being generous) Its more than hard for me to believe a deers heart and lungs take up the ENTIRE cavity infront of diaphram. There is no reason for the heart and lungs to be suspended in mid cavity with nothing below and nothing above other than veins/arterys.
Now the artery and the spine take up the top 10% (being generous) of the chest cavity
So there should be room above the heart and lungs and below the spine. The void area could be a small percentage area of the entire chest cavity.
Dean
PS: From the angle of camera as a shooter I would say 1 and 2 would be a spine shot. 3 would probably cut the artery that runs below the spine.
DOR
Life Member
Anyone have a good link to a lung physiology site?
Put in laymans terms, the lungs keep there function only when the pressure within the cavity is maintained. Once something (like an arrow) gets into the area in front of the diaphragm this pressure is released and unless the hole is obstructed/sealed the lungs(or lung) should collapse and very shortly lose the ability to exchange air. This is what we call a sucking chest wound! If you think hard about your kills I am sure you have heard this. I will look for a good link to explain this in terms that we can all understand not just some pulmonary specialist!
Put in laymans terms, the lungs keep there function only when the pressure within the cavity is maintained. Once something (like an arrow) gets into the area in front of the diaphragm this pressure is released and unless the hole is obstructed/sealed the lungs(or lung) should collapse and very shortly lose the ability to exchange air. This is what we call a sucking chest wound! If you think hard about your kills I am sure you have heard this. I will look for a good link to explain this in terms that we can all understand not just some pulmonary specialist!
DOR
Life Member
good link i think
Download the power point slide show if you have the patience
. It may not be technically perfect but it looks to be a decent one for explaining this.
And yes I had some extra time on my hands today !!
Download the power point slide show if you have the patience
And yes I had some extra time on my hands today !!
Fishbonker
Life Member
I think 1-3 are "void", above plueral cavity, 4 and 5 are the spine, 6 on are the plueral cavity. Anything above the ribs would be what I would call the "void". Nuthin there but meat, and mighty tastey meat at that.
The 'Bonker
The 'Bonker
bowhuntr311
IowaWhitetail Addict
[ QUOTE ]
4 and 5 are the spine,
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not trying to argue or put you down. But Im trying to figure out why I think the spine is 1 - 3 and you think 4-5 are the spine. The backstraps are 2inches thick and they usually cover 3/4 of the spine on each side. And I see the deer is quarting but 5 would put a line between the center of the back quaters and the front quarters?
I just want to know what Im missing in that picture?
Dean
4 and 5 are the spine,
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not trying to argue or put you down. But Im trying to figure out why I think the spine is 1 - 3 and you think 4-5 are the spine. The backstraps are 2inches thick and they usually cover 3/4 of the spine on each side. And I see the deer is quarting but 5 would put a line between the center of the back quaters and the front quarters?
I just want to know what Im missing in that picture?
Dean
G6
Active Member
I once shot a buck between 4 and 5 with the bow and had about 10 inches of penetration. I tracked the buck for more than 250 yards with good frothy lung blood and never recovered him. I was really bummed that I never killed him with what LOOKED to be a good shot. I was hunting the next year during shotgun season (14 months later) and killed him with 3 inches of my arrow still protruding from where it entered the year before. It had healed up tight around the shaft where it entered and had scar tissue around the shaft sealing the wound. If I had been thinking and have known about what people call the void I would have looked for lung damage when I gutted him. I don't think there is a void at all just dumb luck on the deer's part to survive a lung hit. I think I threw the arrow away or I would have to bring it to the Classic next spring.
Fishbonker
Life Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 and 5 are the spine,
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not trying to argue or put you down. But Im trying to figure out why I think the spine is 1 - 3 and you think 4-5 are the spine. The backstraps are 2inches thick and they usually cover 3/4 of the spine on each side. And I see the deer is quarting but 5 would put a line between the center of the back quaters and the front quarters?
I just want to know what Im missing in that picture?
Dean
[/ QUOTE ]
To me, 1-3 are the dorsal spinal processes, the bone sticking up off the vertebrae. 4-5 are the actual vertebrae of the spine. You could argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that 5 is too low for vertebrae and possibly is plural space. If you reference the rib cage photo, the void, to me, would be from the vertebrae up. Unfortunately I've never done any butchering, except the occasional board or sentence, to see how far over the ribs or vertabrae the backstraps hang and the intercostal muscles begin.
The 'Bonker
[ QUOTE ]
4 and 5 are the spine,
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not trying to argue or put you down. But Im trying to figure out why I think the spine is 1 - 3 and you think 4-5 are the spine. The backstraps are 2inches thick and they usually cover 3/4 of the spine on each side. And I see the deer is quarting but 5 would put a line between the center of the back quaters and the front quarters?
I just want to know what Im missing in that picture?
Dean
[/ QUOTE ]
To me, 1-3 are the dorsal spinal processes, the bone sticking up off the vertebrae. 4-5 are the actual vertebrae of the spine. You could argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that 5 is too low for vertebrae and possibly is plural space. If you reference the rib cage photo, the void, to me, would be from the vertebrae up. Unfortunately I've never done any butchering, except the occasional board or sentence, to see how far over the ribs or vertabrae the backstraps hang and the intercostal muscles begin.
The 'Bonker
I owuld agree tha the spine is at about #5 on the pic. It is at about #3 towards the rear of the body, above my white spot. It is not straight, it is curved. All I know is my personal experience, and my shot that was not lethal went through that area that I colored with a white spot. It was definitely below the spine and behind the last rib so it was back of the diaphragm. I think that is where the buc in the original pic was hit. It doesn't appear to me to be in front of the diaphragm, that is an important issue.