GregBickal
New Member
Oh shoot I thought we were talking about hot older women. Wink wink.
I bet cougars would really love using you guy's tree stands. Could you imagine, going to your tree stand and finding a cougar in it, or better yet, finding that the Cougar killed your big buck and drug it up into your tree stand for safe keeping. Score!!
Cougars and Bears probably not the best thing for safety reason. I wouldnt mind having something else large to shoot, how about free range buffalo. lol j/k.
I bet cougars would really love using you guy's tree stands. Could you imagine, going to your tree stand and finding a cougar in it, or better yet, finding that the Cougar killed your big buck and drug it up into your tree stand for safe keeping. Score!!
Cougars and Bears probably not the best thing for safety reason. I wouldnt mind having something else large to shoot, how about free range buffalo. lol j/k.
teeroy
Life Member
i would shoot one, given the chance. then, when some douche from the anti-hunting pile of toilet paper (the des moines register) came calling for an interview, i would tell them the only way they get a story on my shooting a lion, is if they print an article written by a "pro-hunting" douche of my choosing......and then i'd call thomas to have him write it up
AZHunter
Iowa Boy At Heart
As a professional wildlife biologist who has spent almost 12 years in "cougar country" doing research (inluding on cougars), field work of various kinds, hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc., I agree that they are, in fact, opportunistic predators, and I would rather take my chances with a bear out here in AZ than with a cougar. Bears are much more predictable and slightly more fearful. However, if you look at the number of people who recreate out here (all western states for that matter) vs. the number of attacks (let alone "encounters"/sightings), it is an extremely low number of attacks/encounters. It takes a great deal more than just being a predator and being hungry for cougars to go after a human. Drought conditions will push them to extremes to find food. I know full well what can happen when kids wander off and I never let my kids wander off, but its because of a lot more than just cougars in the forest. Older or injured cougars that can't hunt as effectively will turn to easier sources. Yes, there have been attacks on kids, especially in CO where there is a high degree of urban interface, but those were also strong drought years where even the deer were taking it in the shorts and food in general were scarce. The lion didn't let me walk away because I was bigger nor because it wasn't hungry. I know of people bigger than me (and I'm not little) that have been pursued and checked out from a distance. Lions are cats and cats are curious, for sure. That curiosity leads them to go investigate a particular situation and, more often than not, ends with nothing happening. More than likely it let me go because it was a female with cubs and because I wasn't its main prey: deer or javelina. Yes, predation on livestock occurs out here, but far less than the public thinks. I've seen far more deer and javelina carcasses from lion kills than I've seen calf carcasses. And in some areas out here, especially where drought is hitting harder, the lions are wreaking havoc on the deer herds even though there are plenty of cattle grazing in those areas. Throughout most western states, cougars are heavily hunted and fearful of humans. Most "encounters" are cougars checking out the situation/person and realizing that they aren't a prey item and then wander off to look for an easier meal that won't fight back.
Again, I'm not opposed to hunting cougars and I'm far from a bleeding heart. My lack of wanting to hunt them is simply a personal choice based on my encounter and the fact that I don't kill what I won't eat. But over a decade of living and recreating and working in cougar country (and its far from just mountains), I've gotten a pretty good understanding of how they do and do not operate and how much of a threat they really are not to people. I've only ever seen 2: the one I described earlier and one that ran across the road at the far reaches of my headlights one night. I'm just trying to offer a different view point of how cougars interact with humans in areas where both species are abundant. Afterall, I see all kinds of talk here about educating the public about the need to manage deer. Why not try to educate the public about misconceptions about cougars, bears, wolves, etc. I grew up in Iowa and believed several of the myths and misnomers about all of the above. When I started studying wildlife, ecosystems, etc. and then moved out west, I got to see many, if not all, of those myths debunked.
Respectfully...
Shovelbuck
Active Member
I'm also in the minority here. I would not shoot one unless in defense and I believe they need protected.
Years ago, I would of shot one and actually tried quite hard to bow shoot one that hung out on some property I hunted one winter. Never could quite get him in range and as I look back on it now, I'm glad I didn't.
As in the quote above, I think the real key to all of this is education.
I thought that I would watch this for a while, but now I have to join the few who would not shoot a cougar in Iowa, especially just because there is not a law protecting them. For those who say they would shoot because they fear for their children, or their pets, or their livestock this sounds very noble, but in fact this doesn't hold up under examination. If these people were actually so fearful of the lives of their children they would never put them in a car, because even though it is an accident, there are hundreds of children killed in car accidents every year. These people should also shoot the neighbor's Pit Bull, German Shepard, or even Lab on sight because these dogs attack and kill or maim children, right here in Iowa, every year. When was the last reported cougar attack in Iowa? It is time that we drop the safety issue and address the real issue of those who would shoot on sight, and that is the thrill or rush of actually shooting a mountain lion. If you will admit it to yourselves it would be for bragging rights and a lion mount, neither of which are necessarily bad. I am not more noble than any of you but my choice would be to not shoot, just the same as I would release any 5 pound trout or 10 pound walleye, just because that is how I feel. Every one has their own reasons for doing things and I don't mean to totally ditch some of you but please be honest about the whole just protecting my kids thing.
I would shoot one in a heart beat if I had a chance for 2 reasons,#1 because if i had seen one close from a tree stand I think it would be a pretty scary trip out of the woods in the dark.#2 I can't afford to go out west on a lion hunt.But with that being said.....if I did get lucky enough to take one...I wouldn't shoot another one.One would be enough.
AZHunter
Iowa Boy At Heart
[It is time that we drop the safety issue and address the real issue of those who would shoot on sight, and that is the thrill or rush of actually shooting a mountain lion. If you will admit it to yourselves it would be for bragging rights and a lion mount, neither of which are necessarily bad. I am not more noble than any of you...]
I've got to say, well said, Bowmaker! :way:
And for what its worth, ( I think I mentioned earlier) I've had several good friends out here say that mt. lion is some of the best meat they've ever eaten, which totally caught me off guard considering they are a top carnivore. I'd certainly try it to say I've tried it (just like I would black bear), based on my friends' recommendations, but it would just have to be off someone else's harvest.
I've got to say, well said, Bowmaker! :way:
And for what its worth, ( I think I mentioned earlier) I've had several good friends out here say that mt. lion is some of the best meat they've ever eaten, which totally caught me off guard considering they are a top carnivore. I'd certainly try it to say I've tried it (just like I would black bear), based on my friends' recommendations, but it would just have to be off someone else's harvest.
DannyBoy
Well-Known Member
Bowmaker, I do understand your argument, but I really don't think some of yours hold up either. Millions of cars are on the road at any given time, therefore there will be a lot of accidents. Millions of people own dogs, therefore it's likely that there will be a few bad apples and some kids will get hurt. It's the law of numbers. I'm not sure when the last reported cougar attack in Iowa was but I'll bet it happened when we actually had some numbers of the animals... I think many of these people are worried about a large carnivores natural instinct to prey on lesser opponents: smaller animals or pets, children, etc. I personally think that with just a few of the cats running around we won't have any issues. They have plenty to eat aside from peoples pets and kids and would rather avoid human contact. Just my 2cents...
AZHunter
Iowa Boy At Heart
Here's a little more info about the history mt. lions in Iowa, from "A Country So Full of Game: The Story of Wildlife in Iowa" by James J. Dinsmore (one of my wildlife professors at ISU). Paraphrasing his book, mt lions were extirpated from Iowa in the 1860s. They were widespread throughout the state, but not in great numbers. 2 attacks were documented in 1855-56. And most of the documented stories are of them taking colts, calves, sheep, "...and about 40 hogs...". Dannyboy sums it up nicely, also: "with a few cats running around, we won't have any issues. They have plenty to eat...and would rather avoid human contact."
"In 150 years, 19 people have died from mountain lion attacks in the western United States, the lion's modern-day range."
"HAVE DIED" ......What I want to see is how many hundreds of people have been attacked and mauled. It's all how you twist it to get your position across. I saw a show about a female hiker in California that ended up being seriously disfigured by a mountain lion attack. She had thousands of stitches and multiple surgeries. Even after all her surgeries she didn't even come close to looking like she had prior to the attack.
I searched "hiker attacked by mountain lion" and came up with 25+ pages of matches. I was going to link the story but I'm too lazy to look through that many matches.
A mountain lion living out West is much less likely to encounter humans vs a mountain lion living in Iowa because of the terrain, areas of open space and how the populations are dispersed. Take Iowa 55,869 square miles with a population of 2,944,062 compared to Montana 145,552 square miles with a population of 917,621 or Wyoming with 97,100 square miles and a population of 501,242. (all figures from 2007 Rand McNally map). Remember that 2/3 of the land in the Western 11 States is public land (National Forest, BLM, State, ect.) and is basically uninhabited by man other than for recreational purposes, logging, cattle grazing, ect.
I say if you see one in Iowa...shoot it!!!
Oh...and it never ceases to amaze me how our DNR officials respond to these types of issues.
"If I was to size up the three killings, I would say they are indiscriminate killings," said Ron Andrews, a fur resource specialist at the Iowa Department of Natural Resources. "We discourage indiscriminate killing of anything, really. It was up in the tree and not causing any harm."
Seriously???
"HAVE DIED" ......What I want to see is how many hundreds of people have been attacked and mauled. It's all how you twist it to get your position across. I saw a show about a female hiker in California that ended up being seriously disfigured by a mountain lion attack. She had thousands of stitches and multiple surgeries. Even after all her surgeries she didn't even come close to looking like she had prior to the attack.
I searched "hiker attacked by mountain lion" and came up with 25+ pages of matches. I was going to link the story but I'm too lazy to look through that many matches.
A mountain lion living out West is much less likely to encounter humans vs a mountain lion living in Iowa because of the terrain, areas of open space and how the populations are dispersed. Take Iowa 55,869 square miles with a population of 2,944,062 compared to Montana 145,552 square miles with a population of 917,621 or Wyoming with 97,100 square miles and a population of 501,242. (all figures from 2007 Rand McNally map). Remember that 2/3 of the land in the Western 11 States is public land (National Forest, BLM, State, ect.) and is basically uninhabited by man other than for recreational purposes, logging, cattle grazing, ect.
I say if you see one in Iowa...shoot it!!!
Oh...and it never ceases to amaze me how our DNR officials respond to these types of issues.
"If I was to size up the three killings, I would say they are indiscriminate killings," said Ron Andrews, a fur resource specialist at the Iowa Department of Natural Resources. "We discourage indiscriminate killing of anything, really. It was up in the tree and not causing any harm."
Seriously???
JNRBRONC
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is.
Comparing statistics from areas that are at Mt. Lion carrying capacity/heavily human populated to Iowa is apples and oranges.
Shovelbuck
Active Member
Looks like we'd better kill ALL DEER!!!!!! They attack far more people than lions.
Page 131 if you don't want to read through all the other cervid stuff.
13 attacks at just one Illinois university in 2 years.
http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/journal/spring2009/hubbard_nielsen_sp09.pdf
Page 131 if you don't want to read through all the other cervid stuff.
13 attacks at just one Illinois university in 2 years.
http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/journal/spring2009/hubbard_nielsen_sp09.pdf
I wasn't......................
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Not sure what you mean. You better read my post again. I was pointing out just the opposite. Large areas with few people out west compared to Iowa's population being more dispersed with few places being uninhabited. Nothing in there about carring capacity. However, being you brought it up. Just wondering what you think Iowa's mountain lion carring capacity should be? How many cats per 20 square miles?
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Shovelbuck
Active Member
You know, I really don't know why I'm bothering with this...........I have no dog in this fight being from Nebraska. Although we were much like Iowa when they were first confirmed here. Fortunately, our Game and Parks had the wisdom to protect them.
Once again, I have no problem with people that want to shoot a big cat. It's the unfounded "they will attack us" attitude that I don't agree with.
The farm I hunt has had them in the area for as long as I've been a member here. I'm out there almost every weekend as are a half dozen kids from 4 through 16 years old. My sister in law has seen them, as have several neighbors. It goes without saying nobody has been attacked. This photo is of a lion killed buck. It was killed about 20 yards from a blind I had set up for turkey hunting. Once again, no problems.
More people are killed each year by bee stings, spider bites, etc. For a state as yours that has maybe half a dozen cat's wondering through, I myself would have bigger things to worry about.
Just my two cents worth and it's free.:way:
Enjoy your hunt.
Actually, if you research it a bit, you'll find that a very high percentage of attacks come from areas where people have moved into the suburbs that are inhabited by the cats. California for example.
Once again, I have no problem with people that want to shoot a big cat. It's the unfounded "they will attack us" attitude that I don't agree with.
The farm I hunt has had them in the area for as long as I've been a member here. I'm out there almost every weekend as are a half dozen kids from 4 through 16 years old. My sister in law has seen them, as have several neighbors. It goes without saying nobody has been attacked. This photo is of a lion killed buck. It was killed about 20 yards from a blind I had set up for turkey hunting. Once again, no problems.
More people are killed each year by bee stings, spider bites, etc. For a state as yours that has maybe half a dozen cat's wondering through, I myself would have bigger things to worry about.
Just my two cents worth and it's free.:way:
Enjoy your hunt.
Looks like we'd better kill ALL DEER!!!!!! They attack far more people than lions.
Page 131 if you don't want to read through all the other cervid stuff.
13 attacks at just one Illinois university in 2 years.
http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/journal/spring2009/hubbard_nielsen_sp09.pdf
I wasn't......................
You better read my post again as well. I was too lazy to search for the news story I saw on tv. By the way I would like the link to your graph so I can read where it is from. Thanks.
The deer study just supports why we should shoot mountain lions in Iowa and not protect them. When wild animals are in constant contact with humans and ultimately develop no fear of them they become the aggressor. How many Iowa deer hunters got attacked by deer this year walking to their stands. If its not too much trouble, could you find those statistics for me?
Shovel. I was replying when you posted again. I don't worry about being attacked but feel if they are protected in Iowa there is the possibility of someone getting attacked as well as livestock, pets. ect. I just don't feel Iowa has appropriate habitat for them due to our lack of large uninhabited areas and feel that they should be shot if seen.
pastorpotluck
New Member
It depends on where I'm at and where the lion is, etc. I have no problem shooting them. My sister -in-law had a goat in Arkansas. It went crazy one night and she tied it to the fence by the house overnight. Next morning all that was left was the head. It was a cougar. Ten yards from the house. Now if they are scared of humans and run off I'd probably leave them alone. On the other hand if they are still and just looking at you they are a dangerous animal. They do and can kill. Read your pioneer history and you'll see that there was good reason to hunt them out of existence along with bears. We've heard the same no danger reasoning about coyotes that they don't hunt in packs and won't bother humans either. So explain that to the baby in Chariton that got over 100 stitches from a coyote attack in his yard. In short I will kill anything that hunts me or indiscriminately destroys property like calves, piglets, etc. A cat will kill just for the fun of it. Look at your little kitty kat and watch what ol tabby does with a field mouse. A mountain lion will do the same. If you want to see where all this leads a good factual movie and book is "The Ghosts in the Darkness." Cats of all types will kill people even adults if they figure out they are easy prey. Man eating lions, tigers, etc. are truly dangerous predators. As far as the DNR who I often admire the reasoning of them seems to be different on feral cats and big cats. Why? A cat is a cat.