My Knowledge & Solution quest for Info to combat EHD & TICKS....

Discussion in 'Whitetail Management' started by Sligh1, Mar 23, 2017.

  1. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    Been doing as much research as I can. Is there a SOLUTION to EHD? Absolutely nothing concrete for sure. Especially in wild applications. I've asked some Experts and Veterinarians I know about some practical ideas... I've also asked them about what some deer breeders do (effectively) for pen raised deer and whether anything can be replicated in wild settings that's practical (won't kill you for time or $).... Interesting. Here's an UPDATE..... **NOT SAYING ANYTHING HERE IS SETTLED SCIENCE, I want anyone to do their own research and come up with their own opinions, etc.
    1) Ticks are going to be BAD this year. Mild winter. I was talking to one buddy who is a Veterinarian who works with deer, horses, cows, etc. Said tick infestation alone, when really bad, can reduce deer body weight & rack size, easily by 15%+ on average if they infest deer. Or worse. Stuff like "Permithrin" & minerals have benefits to both Ticks & Midges.... Ticks are generally bad in ALL WAYS (parasites, suck deer dry, transmit Lyme's to people, etc). Midges bite deer and transmit EHD.

    link here for A treatment idea....
    http://www.crdaniels.com/4poster .... Creating or buying feeding station that has "paint rollers" on it that you treat with Permithrin or a "tickicide" - deer eat from it, get insecticide on necks, ears, etc- keeps ticks and insects off and kills them for a while, also reducing population. I actually read some studies.... Some were "REALLY GOOD" some were "iffy". But, it sure is "common sense" and somewhat practical. Could make it yourself possibly. I honestly think you could put mineral in instead of corn but who knows. For sure gets me THINKING.

    2) Minerals. I used to use Pro-Phos 8 by land 'o lakes. I believe in this so much, IMO & experience, I can't explain. Rack size, adding mass, kickers, droptines, etc - it's sick. Deer with faces in it all summer for a few seasons, OMG, the increases I see are sick VS what I've watched for 20 years vs deer that don't have minerals they need (deficiencies on phosphorous, calcium, etc). Or- what the average 2-4 year olds looked like on XYZ farm BEFORE doing this VS 2-3 years later - good gosh, HUGE difference, IMO. Improving health, immune systems, etc - has same thing & reasons cattle guys give to cows year round. & Vitamin & mineral defiencies happen in people, cattle, deer, etc, no question about it. Purina quit making pro-phos 8 (owns land o lakes) and have a CLOSE product now.... Either Fescue Pro Mineral 8 or Regular Pro Mineral 8 (Fescue has a little more for mineral on immune boosting, etc) but essentially both are darn close. 8% phosphorous (most areas being phosphorous deficient), and all the minerals I could dream up + Molasses to attract. Product codes, regular: 3003534-106 and fescue: 3003536-106. I ALSO DO A BLOCK AT EACH AREA that's same ingredients. one block & 1-2 bags loose mineral.
    MINERAL LABEL.jpg

    3) Additives.... Do your own readings on the benefits of Garlic & Sulfur for: resistance to deer being bitten by flies, ticks, midges, etc. & the benefits of garlic by possibly "increasing immune system"??? Benefits, data, effectiveness (or possibility of it) go above my head. Getting deer to eat it..... I got extra "dried molasses" in 50 lbs bags. & jugs of it in liquid to experiment. Sulfur needs to be put down in "correct ratios", Garlic doesn't need to be that carefully figured. Way way more info out there or thinking on this one could do. BTW- bulk bag of powder garlic & feed grade sulfur are both readily available and cheap.

    4) Keys to POSSIBLE resistance to midges, flies, ticks AND also fending off through immune system: information that talked about making sure your minerals had correct amounts (or had it period) of: Selenium, Vitamin E, B12 (COBALT to make simple), etc. Mineral above obviously has all those.

    Could these help? That's up to your thoughts & research. Weighing ups and downs, no brainer to me. All the benefits, no brainer. Some of the other stuff.... sulfur, garlic & trying to treat deer somehow with insecticide, I'm gonna try. It's gotta be practical, no question. Open to anyone's ideas, no doubt!!!!! No silver bullet, I get it- probably never will be. I lost 26 bucks 2 years ago though on one farm alone (yes, this was EHD.... not hunting, bullets/arrows, car accidents, etc) & I'm not gonna sit back and do NOTHING. I fully realize 99% of farms - folks are gonna let "nature take its course" - I get it & understand their feelings and every "so many years" a wave is gonna come through and wipe the place out or hit it hard. I guess I'm not going down that road & it's not an acceptable stance I'll take, especially if I can make other benefits in addition to possibly keeping some more deer from being infested with insects that suck em dry or kill em. I'm talking about, IMO - fairly minor intervention against this cruel part of nature. I personally made my mind up, if there's a "little bit" I can do to not see a repeat of "26 dead bucks" on one farm again, I'm gonna try and help the situation. & yes, I know EHD for one runs in cycles & hits in pockets. I also did find out that there's a strong relation between high levels of cattle in your area, transporting in NEW CATTLE (from down south for example) & an increase in EHD (which is very UN-NATURAL in our wild deer setting to have these things brought in and all that comes with them).
    I think there's a huge lack of knowledge on EHD, almost like I think we have a ton to learn about CWD. I personally think there's doable solutions that are PRACTICAL, EASY & NOT HIGH COST where benefit far outweighs the risk BUT that's my opinion and I sure don't want to tell anyone else what to do or feel like there's a magic solution. I PERSONALLY AM OPEN TO ANY OTHER PRACTICAL & EFFECTIVE IDEAS for ticks, immune system support, "natural" ways to fend off midges, treatments, whatever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  3. kazbass

    kazbass New Member

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    Excellent article Sligh. Thank you for your thoughts and advice.
     
  4. bwese

    bwese Active Member

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    Sligh, good info. I always get pics of deer with clusters of grape looking ticks around their ears. I also inquired about tick infestations on deer with my friend who is also a vet. He has done a lot of research for their company's deer nutrition products. He said the cattle rollers will reduce greatly the ticks numbers but the issue is that the scent that is left on the deer is a calling card for coyotes. He said in their research the coyotes were much more efficient at following a doe scent and getting their fawns because of the scent from rollers made it easy for them to find the deer/deer path. Perhaps start the rollers idea late summer as the fawns might be big enough to get away from a coyote.

    For increased immune system strength, digestible copper is key to max immune system strength, there are other ingredients needed in correct ratios with the copper but copper deficiencies are indicative of weak immune systems. I see copper is part of the label you shared of the product you spoke of. The ingredients look good for deer health.
     
  5. DeerHunter3

    DeerHunter3 Member

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    This is a fantastic article! Where could a guy buy this from Sligh?
     
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  6. LoessHillsArcher

    LoessHillsArcher Well-Known Member

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    Funny you post this Skip, I just called the local coop yesterday to order some pro-phos 8 blocks and they said they didn't see them on their list any more... this explains it!
     
  7. BJohnson

    BJohnson Well-Known Member

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    Skip,

    Have you looked into the Maximizer Mineral product from Real World Wildlife Products?? They claim that their mineral product combats EHD. They have a chart of comparative mineral content for various mineral products on the market currently. The RWWP shows much less salt content(<35%), more calcium (approx. 15%), phosphorous (7%) and various minerals including copper, iron, manganese, zinc, Vit A/D3/E. A guy from our area is working to become a dealer for this product. Don't know much about it yet but they are making a lot of claims about this product helping combat EHD in three areas, including lowering body heat stress by expanding vascular size if the animal gets EHD??

    BJ
     
  8. antleraddiction

    antleraddiction Member

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    Some people have claimed that they used a product similar to this http://www.summitchemical.com/mosquito/mosquito-dunks/ to treat a lot of the water sources on their farms (bacillus thuringiensis is listed to kill midge fly larve). They claimed they lost fewer deer when compared with others. I don't know if there's any truth to this or not but another option for you to try Skip.
     
  9. IowaBowHunter1983

    IowaBowHunter1983 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark Drury just had a bunch of his ponds worked on. Dug the banks straight down on the perimeter in attempt to help minimize mudflats. Interesting idea.
     
  10. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    All great ideas. I have so many ponds it's almost "concerning". One is 40 acres so I know that's out of the question BUT that one has literally "waves" in it with any wind so pry not as bad. Thought about those banks like that & stuff like rocks on banks or bubblers on the .5-1 acre ponds. But that leaves creeks or rivers. I do think there's some validity here.
    For guys in basic scale of things... minerals, sulfur & garlic & maybe some insecticide may be very doable with host of reasons. Good feedback from all above.
    I do know guys treating ponds. My feasible way to do it would be something like my spray gun from my sprayer on banks or taking boom of my 60' sprayer over banks. Pry not something I'll do but a thought. Actually taking an excavator and straightening out sides of ponds would actually be far more efficient and actually not cost a lot. Pretty quick and unless it settled or eroded flat- be a one time fix.
    7 strains of ehd complicate things btw. Resistance to one, could get another the next year. Also.... midges from a mucky water nearby cattle operation can go a mile or 2 with the wind. So.... leads me back to addding minerals and additives to decrease bugs biting.

    All good stuff!!!
     
  11. habitat24

    habitat24 Member

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    usually on banks you want a slope and this prevents eroding,I have seen alot of the bigger watersheds that they will put riprap on the banks that get the waves to protect from wave erosion
     
  12. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    What would you BALLPARK guess the cost of rock would be (quarry bout 5 miles away) to get rock for a 1 acre pond for example? I have a lot of ponds across all farms - all the way from .1 to 40 acres in size. Most being .1 to 2 acres. Maybe do rocks on a few a year for next decade if it's reasonable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  13. IowaBowHunter1983

    IowaBowHunter1983 Super Moderator Staff Member

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    ^ I think that would be very expensive. Example.

    1 acre pond is going to have roughly 800 LF of perimeter x 10' wide= 8,000 SF of stone =~ 300 tons x $25/Ton (guessing for larger stone, prolly close)= $7,500 + 8 hr x$170/hr (equipment for day) = $1,360 Grand Total=$8,860. If that price is palatable, I don't see why it wouldn't work... seems like good logic

    Now, digging banks vertical with excavator (not completely, but enough to reduce mud flats significantly) and doing plantings to deal with erosion (lilly pads, cat tail, whatever), would be pretty inexpensive and probably "look" better.
     
  14. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    At most I would do a few a year. Ouch. Here's the crappy part... the year I lost 26 bucks on one farm... like magic..... I have 14 ponds on that farm... I swear there was one buck per pond. Not zero, not 2. One buck at every single frigin pond. The other 12 bucks... I bet half were within 150 yards of river and then the other half were scattered in random spots.

    Now - don't mean the pond caused the midge/ehd since they go to water when they are symptomatic. Those midges can literally travel a mile or 2 when wind is going. This obviously complicates things but I'm sure many of the midges came right outta those ponds & river obviously.

    Death (all ehd or ehd related- hooves got all messed up on survivors and got infected, etc) spanned from mid August all the way into February. I'm sure a few more died even after that. Was so sickening. Had I not done some intense timber work (so essentially grid walking every inch) i would have missed many of these bucks.
    I also found midges in my auger holes that filled up with water into late November. Yes- biting midges & ehd carriers were flying around and out into late November!!
    Ponds and water are pry PART of equation but if u can also beef up health, immunity and have supplemental feeding that keeps flies from biting - might be a nice piece of the puzzle & may b the simple approach that's realistic. Cattle guys deal with similar issues and it's interesting to see what they do.... sulfur in feed for example. I had a farm down road where they flew plane with permethrin being sprayed on all creeks and ponds a few times one year. (Gotta be expensive!). Crazy. Again, don't think there's a magic Bullet and the closest thing would require a billionaire to fund it. But- still think there's some very basic stuff that can fight back a decent % of the problem.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  15. JNRBRONC

    JNRBRONC PMA Member

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    Sligh,
    Any concerns of increasing CWD via mineral sites in an effort to combat EHD?
     
  16. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    From one "joe schmo" looking at this, I'm not but I am not certain and open to more critical thinking. I wish we really understood cwd. I don't think we do or in reality there's zero we can do. But that's me and I'm far from an expert. If it gets here... stays in soil forever. I don't think having concentrated feeding locations mean much at all and here's why..... my farms, for example, are filled with scrapes that countless deer walk by and put their faces in. Most times of year you can find herds in field eating combined corn or alfalfa. Cwd does not kill deer at levels like ehd does.

    If cwd gets here- it's not because of forces under my control & obviously it can come from everything from transporting in pen deer with it, possibly crows, etc.
    Actually... CWD is a concern but I have to think about this some more and I'm open to opposing views (thinking out loud as I write this). If it gets in my area- sure - I'm sure I'll adjust how I do things. I don't ultimately feel responsible for cwd and I can't "create it" out of nothing on my farm. I don't want to promote it or create a setting which would allow it to flourish. But- is there a lot I can do if i did nothing & just farmed as normal? Dunno.

    Here's my other thoughts.... ehd wipes out half the herd in some places in cycles. Some places 80-90%. Cwd does nothing to that extent. we are at the tip of the ice burg for understanding cwd. It very well could be possible there's zero we can do about it. I don't know. I dont want to have cwd but Is it out of my control no matter anything I can do good or bad? Most likely based on all I've read. Is there anything I can do about another disease, ehd, that wipes out 10-80% of deer herd at certain times? I hope so.
     
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  17. DeerHunter3

    DeerHunter3 Member

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  18. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    Really similar. I don't think deer like it as well, for whatever reason, as the non-weatherized stuff. It's not as fine grained and something about they don't like quite as well. With that said, I like that and I've used that exact thing. still good. I'd maybe add a little molasses to it to add to attraction a little more. But yes, exactly the same as what I use, only difference is one is weatherized, one isn't. Stuff I buy is $23/bag BTW. 50 lbs.

    Oh- on the blocks.... I haven't tried that type actually. That has more "feed value" with protein and stuff. I haven't tried that. Could be good. Blocks I've had great results with are the pro 8 blocks. Again- those ingredients are about the best I've ever seen.
    **only for attractant: I've had good luck with trophy rock, lucky buck and Redmond or Redland trace mineral (which is same mineral as trophy rock & made from same stuff). All of which don't come close for nutritional benefit and are far higher in just salt. Nice attractant but that's all I've use em for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  19. DeerHunter3

    DeerHunter3 Member

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    Where are you getting the pro phos 8 blocks? Is there a new name I should be looking under?
     
  20. Sligh1

    Sligh1 Administrator Staff Member

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    This one is an OLD link, the product is amazing.... https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.agricharts.com/sites/658/Feed Docs & Pictures/Pro Phos 8 Block_1990126.pdf
    Since PURINA'S WEBSITE SUCKS!!!!!!..... I'll see if I can find current.....
    Ok, ya, Purina's website is an absolute mess & joke. I got my feed store to order me some but I sure as heck can't find it online. So, I'd maybe experiment with some blocks that 1) Have similar ingredients to label in picture or this link above in thread (pro-phos 8 link. NEW name is something like Pro Mineral 8 or something?) 2) 8-12% phosphorous and have molasses content (they all usually have about the same levels of trace minerals as labels posted here- which are fantastic) 3) Be safe and stay away from medicated ones. I don't know if they hurt anything but I don't ever get them, most are for Horn Flies in cattle anyways. Start with googling stuff like "8% phosphorous, mineral block, beef" and stuff like that. Kent usually makes really good or similar stuff too. Like Kent's 365 brand, good stuff. I'd mix a little molasses with that one too (or a little more salt, whatever, just something to get em to hit a little more) as it's not quite as preferred but they do have good stuff.
    Here's a google search I did.... https://www.google.com/#q=mineral,+block,+8,+pro,+beef&* Sure get a guy going on this. heck, bring label to your feed store "what you got similar" and try it. Some work better than others for preference, there's no frigin doubt in my mind. Try and few and you'll dial it in.

    here's another one that looks like it's got great ingredient mix: http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C11A22/beef-cattle.aspx?load=50
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  21. JayEC

    JayEC Member

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