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Timber Stand Improvment

Tmayer13

PMA Member
Looks great! You mentioned running a fire through there, how long do you recommend waiting for that?

My Dad and I cut some cedars out of a large cedar thicket and it has some native grasses where sunlight currently hits the soil. We left them lay and were curious how long to wait to introduce fire. We are planning to continue to thin them out over time.
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Your picture compared to what IBH83 has are very different...his cedars were completely full grown and useless in a timber setting....your picture is showing "younger" trees in an open "prairie" type setting.....


I have the EXACT same thing as you on our new farm....what I am going to do and started on today.....I mowed a path around my "timber" and will till that up as a fire break....then in the coming weeks I will torch it knowing that the cedars in the natives will get smoked, but I also want my natives to flourish rather than my cedars....so I guess you have to decide which you want...if you want both you will need to put some type of fire break around each tree ....

But to answer your question, it's all whether permitting, we are in a warm trend right now so the cool seasons will start to "pop", you can burn anytime now to set those cool seasons back and let the warm seasons grasses become more dominate ..hopefully this makes sense

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deerhunter93

Well-Known Member
My Dad owns about 40 acres and I'd guess only 20 acres would be eligible (the rest consists of cedars). We are more interested in wildlife habitat improvement than logging but we will want to free up walnuts where applicable. We're looking to free up walnuts, open up the canopy a bit for oak regeneration, and remove some less desirable species.

A few questions for you guys with some experience with TSI:

1 - cost sharing - does this make sense to do on small properties? We just met with a DNR forester which helped but do you mark and cut yourself, hire someone, or a combo of both? And for tax purposes, is this considered income?

2 - can you spray stumps in the winter? We have just a few spots of black locust, honey suckle, and autumn olive that we want to remove and I know herbicide needs to be applied to the stump but can that be done this time of year or does that need to be applied in the growing months?

3 - what is a rough guess on how many acres a "novice" can cut in a day?
 

Sligh1

Administrator
Staff member
My Dad owns about 40 acres and I'd guess only 20 acres would be eligible (the rest consists of cedars). We are more interested in wildlife habitat improvement than logging but we will want to free up walnuts where applicable. We're looking to free up walnuts, open up the canopy a bit for oak regeneration, and remove some less desirable species.

A few questions for you guys with some experience with TSI:

1 - cost sharing - does this make sense to do on small properties? We just met with a DNR forester which helped but do you mark and cut yourself, hire someone, or a combo of both? And for tax purposes, is this considered income?

2 - can you spray stumps in the winter? We have just a few spots of black locust, honey suckle, and autumn olive that we want to remove and I know herbicide needs to be applied to the stump but can that be done this time of year or does that need to be applied in the growing months?

3 - what is a rough guess on how many acres a "novice" can cut in a day?
1) I would get Cost share. It’s around $130 net per acre u get back.
2) spray stumps in winter. No problem!! Use garlon.
3) if it’s marked to cut…. A novice with a couple good saws could probably cut 3-5 acres in a day. When I say “marked” - thats with x’s on kill trees and a band on crop tree.

This is the #1 thing I’d do to a farm. Or top 3 at least (tsi, year round food & keeping good up & comers safe). Good luck & get after it!
 

Tmayer13

PMA Member
I TSI'd my parents old farm a couple years ago. There was only about 5-6 acres of hardwood timber. The forester came out, made a plan, and then even came back and we marked trees together. I then cut and submitted an "invoice" and received payment.
The particular forester I was dealing with had a great understanding of timber but also had wildlife in mind which is a great combo for what you are doing.
The good thing about having a forester out there to mark the trees, when I was done they typically come and inspect but for us he just said "did you cut the trees we marked", yes...ok Ill sign off on it. Really smooth deal all around.

I am by no means a professional in the timber but I have cut quite a few trees in my life, I would agree with skip, 3-5 acres is easily doable in a day. Also depends if you are hinging, felling, or girdling...all of those take different amounts of time.

But I would not worry at all about the amount time...the longer more calculated you are, the better chance you make it home that night...no two ways about it, operating a chainsaw for hours on end with large trees is very dangerous, make sure you have proper protective gear and analyze every cut before you make it
 

letemgrow

PMA Member
But I would not worry at all about the amount time...the longer more calculated you are, the better chance you make it home that night...no two ways about it, operating a chainsaw for hours on end with large trees is very dangerous, make sure you have proper protective gear and analyze every cut before you make it

I’d also add to shut it down when fatigued and head home unscathed as opposed to cutting when worn out.

Mistakes are much easier to come by when a person isn’t 100.


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deerhunter93

Well-Known Member
I appreciate all the info! The question about how many acres you could cut in a day was just to give us a ballpark on how many acres we could do this year with the time we can put towards it - not really to see how quickly we could cut an acre. I've done a fair amount of cutting but mainly cedars so we know we'll be going slow and calculated with our cuts.
 

sep0667

Land of the Whitetail
I TSI'd my parents old farm a couple years ago. There was only about 5-6 acres of hardwood timber. The forester came out, made a plan, and then even came back and we marked trees together. I then cut and submitted an "invoice" and received payment.
The particular forester I was dealing with had a great understanding of timber but also had wildlife in mind which is a great combo for what you are doing.
The good thing about having a forester out there to mark the trees, when I was done they typically come and inspect but for us he just said "did you cut the trees we marked", yes...ok Ill sign off on it. Really smooth deal all around.

I am by no means a professional in the timber but I have cut quite a few trees in my life, I would agree with skip, 3-5 acres is easily doable in a day. Also depends if you are hinging, felling, or girdling...all of those take different amounts of time.

But I would not worry at all about the amount time...the longer more calculated you are, the better chance you make it home that night...no two ways about it, operating a chainsaw for hours on end with large trees is very dangerous, make sure you have proper protective gear and analyze every cut before you make it

Can you go more into detail on how cost share works? I have contacted my forester, just need to arrange a time to meet and look the property over. When you say you submitted an invoice and received payment, what do you mean by that? So they come out, mark trees etc and you do the work or hire the work done and then give the forester an invoice and you get a check? What all can you put on your invoice?
 

C-LINE10

Member
Can you go more into detail on how cost share works? I have contacted my forester, just need to arrange a time to meet and look the property over. When you say you submitted an invoice and received payment, what do you mean by that? So they come out, mark trees etc and you do the work or hire the work done and then give the forester an invoice and you get a check? What all can you put on your invoice?
You do all of the paperwork etc through your county farm service office. Basically just like signing up for CRP etc.
 

Tmayer13

PMA Member
Can you go more into detail on how cost share works? I have contacted my forester, just need to arrange a time to meet and look the property over. When you say you submitted an invoice and received payment, what do you mean by that? So they come out, mark trees etc and you do the work or hire the work done and then give the forester an invoice and you get a check? What all can you put on your invoice?
I am not sure what part of the state you are in but I think they paid 130$/ac for the TSI. So after he created the plan i think it was 5 acres total. If it remember right they would pay up to 6-700$ total at 50% cost share. So because I did the work I created an invoice that read the cost was $1200 so that way they would pay the full amount.
Example: if my invoice read $600 they would only pay %50 of that totaling $300. Hope that makes sense.

If I remember right there was 2 different programs one of which was REAP which the one I chose even tho it paid a bit less, but I was able to do the work immediately and get paid immediately, the other which I cannot remember what that was, it had some kind of waiting period.

Basically if i had any advice for any landowner with any amount of timber. Talk to your local extension office and see what programs are available. In most cases that I found the state and/or government will literally pay you to do the work you would do any way....BUT be sure to read through all the programs and ask piles of questions. Dont get yourself involved in a sticky situation

EXAMPLE: The year before we sold the land we had enrolled the tillable in CRP. Was accepted and everything was set to go. Wanted to sell to upgrade. Found a buyer and sold it as it was accepted into CRP. I made it very clear that he would receive all payments but would need to plant it himself. All good. Well that was until the previous farmers hired guy planted the field. At that point the CRP contract was void. It was a stupid deal that we had nothing to do with. But the USDA office was so overloaded that they never switched the name on the land, so it was our problem. New land owner was pissed, USDA was pissed. We had nothing to do with anything yet we still got fined. DUMB deal but this is why I say make sure you read the fine print and ask as many questions as possible
 

letemgrow

PMA Member
Swamp white oak without competition now.

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After cutting down 2 honey locust and 3 elm.

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Bassattackr

Active Member
Been using the cool sunny weekends to clear quite a few mature cedars lately. Releasing the surrounding oaks and opening up this hillside to sunlight.

1 cedar.jpg


2 cedar.jpg


The bulk of the large cedars are 0-40 yards in from the field edge. This hillside rolls down from the field making quite a few leeward bedding opportunities as well. Dropping parallel to the hillside aids in leeward bedding as well. The growth should explode on this edge, making stand access even cleaner to the opposite side of the field! :D

Some are quite large, my foot here for reference.. The cedar just past this one is also perfect example of what we're removing. No cover in the bottom 4'-6' range creates a "biological desert" for most wildlife, with little growing under its shade canopy..

3 cedar.jpg


The surrounding oaks rejoicing. Large cedars like these on the ground creates great short term cover and browse, gets sunlight to the forest floor for an explosion of growth and of course releases the more beneficial oaks. Wildlife and timber value both, can't beat that!

4 cedar.jpg
 
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letemgrow

PMA Member
Even better for the black walnuts. I read that timber production is only about 1/3 of what I can be. It’s easy to see that on my place given all the space that the honey locusts and elm are eating up that could be oaks and walnuts.

533ad468e1c40df8f529dca4e0d229e9.jpg


8e6f3c4cde19a09a75258b84e9b95a7a.jpg


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letemgrow

PMA Member
The crème de la crème for me are the red oaks. They represent the least of the desirable species all across my property. When I find one I make sure they get well taken care of.

I’m thinking this is a black oak, but it could be a northern red.

01ef165a4694a8c2c810b21857d30314.jpg


The crown will hopefully fill out a bit more for better acorn production. The honey locust that’s crowding it in the photo was girdled and had tordon applied.

80f5dbd30599dd57de1084b7150faf66.jpg



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sep0667

Land of the Whitetail
Been using the cool sunny weekends to clear quite a few mature cedars lately. Releasing the surrounding oaks and opening up this hillside to sunlight.





The bulk of the large cedars are 0-40 yards in from the field edge. This hillside rolls down from the field making quite a few leeward bedding opportunities as well. Dropping parallel to the hillside aids in leeward bedding as well. The growth should explode on this edge, making stand access even cleaner to the opposite side of the field! :D

Some are quite large, my foot here for reference.. The cedar just past this one is also perfect example of what we're removing. No cover in the bottom 4'-6' range creates a "biological desert" for most wildlife, with little growing under its shade canopy..



The surrounding oaks rejoicing. Large cedars like these on the ground creates great short term cover and browse, gets sunlight to the forest floor for an explosion of growth and of course releases the more beneficial oaks. Wildlife and timber value both, can't beat that!

Will you leave the felled cedars just laying there or will you cut them up and drag out? I have quite a few cedars and thinking i may take down some of the bigger ones.
 
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